38 Special Lead Bullet Gel Test

[Tokarev]

Long overdue but I finally shot a couple 38 Special lead bullet loads into 10% organic gel. I used a Ruger LCR for the test. Gel was shot from ten feet.

The first load is a full wadcutter from Double Tap. This is not billed as a +P load and is loaded with a cast double ended bullet not a swaged or hollow base wadcutter.

Velocity of the Double Tap was pretty low, not surprisingly. My Caldwell chronograph showed an average of about 735 feet per second. Recoil, as expected, was mild.

I fired three rounds of the DT load. Two into bare gel and one through FBI clothing. The bare gel bullets passed through my 20" block while the bullet fired through clothing went to about 15.5 inches.

Note the dark smudge pictured behind the bullet. This is a plug of clothing that was shed as the bullet neared the end of its travel.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/85f401875a7aca011adc0442f0e7b025.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/e29d5421799a881c7b6fa6566a1f41a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/b24c7e8b580580d63898da9a89447e46.jpg

Next up is the 158gr LSWCHP loaded by Remington. This is billed as a +P load and appears to be a swaged bullet. I had been looking forward to this bullet and was expecting some decent performance.

I only fired two of these. One into bare gel and one through clothing. Both bullets went a little over 14 inches. Neither bullet showed much evidence of expansion.

Velocity with this was surprisingly low. My chrono showed 775 FPS with these. Recoil, again, was pretty mild.




https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/f074b3c2ade33d262e24245f84fcf739.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/7792b4e088983503f4a1fd10a83e2d0c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/c48298b1c2ec6e5abc5df443b3c86c00.jpg

As far as "tissue damage" to the gel; I tried to photo the tracks in gel but my cellphone camera really struggles to focus. I guess that's why Hornady and others squirt die into the gel after firing. Anyway, I really didn't note anything spectacular with one bullet over the other. Maybe that's because the SWC and full WC produce similar results in gel.

[Tokarev]

I believe the Remington bullet might work well from a 3" barrel. Most people seem to agree that this load is at its best for 3+ inches of barrel. It looks like the bullet might actually mushroom well if pushed to 850 or a little more although the higher velocity will probably produce less penetration.

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[Dave Williams]

Interesting, thanks for the test data. I discontinued carrying the Remington load in my snubs after a ballistic gel test put on by Mike Shovel of Cor-Bon at my dept. The Remington load bounced off the sheet metal in that particular test, startling me. The DPX load, meanwhile sailed on through, and performed like a service pistol load in the 4 layer denim test, going 12" and expanding to .60"ish. All of my friends who carry snubs carry the DPX load.

[Tokarev]

Interesting, thanks for the test data. I discontinued carrying the Remington load in my snubs after a ballistic gel test put on by Mike Shovel of Cor-Bon at my dept. The Remington load bounced off the sheet metal in that particular test, startling me. The DPX load, meanwhile sailed on through, and performed like a service pistol load in the 4 layer denim test, going 12" and expanding to .60"ish. All of my friends who carry snubs carry the DPX load.

Good point about penetration of barriers. Neither the 148 nor the 158, running at 750ish fps, are likely to do well against windshields or car doors. Still, as a BUG, the 38 with either load will probably get the job done.

I tested the newer DPX (non-Barnes bullet) a while ago. It did okay against glass. I don't recall penetration specs off the top of my head but I believe it went something like 11" through clothing and glass alike.

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[Wayne Dobbs]

I'd be interested in you doing five or more shots with the WC load through the heavy clothing test. I wonder if the 4.5" + loss of penetration with the one round was an anomaly or if that barrier is that hard on that projectile. 15" of penetration is about perfect on a self defense bullet.

[Tokarev]

I'd be interested in you doing five or more shots with the WC load through the heavy clothing test. I wonder if the 4.5" + loss of penetration with the one round was an anomaly or if that barrier is that hard on that projectile. 15" of penetration is about perfect on a self defense bullet.At some point I'll probably re-visit the wadcutter since one bullet isn't enough to determine anything. I also have a couple cast bullets I want to try.

On a related note; I'm going to cut up a gel block and melt it down at low temperature on the kitchen stove. See how well it works the 2nd time around. The blocks are expensive so I'm hoping they'll be fine with a couple cycles.

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[Tokarev]

GT Bullets' 160gr LSWCHP loaded in 38 case with 5.3gr of Unique. This should be a +P max load according to my Lyman book.

Surely this will work better than the factory Remington stuff????https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180626/b53a08ac077ae05efee5361039b3c382.jpg

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[Spartan1980]

GT Bullets' 160gr LSWCHP loaded in 38 case with 5.3gr of Unique. This should be a +P max load according to my Lyman book.

Surely this will work better than the factory Remington stuff????



It's going to depend on bullet hardness. GT says 2-2-96 alloy which would probably be great for punching a deer. I thought the softer the better for expansion in defensive non-barrier situations. I'm curious as to the results though.

[Tokarev]

It's going to depend on bullet hardness. GT says 2-2-96 alloy which would probably be great for punching a deer. I thought the softer the better for expansion in defensive non-barrier situations. I'm curious as to the results though.I've tried GT's 130 RN HP and 145 LWSCHP in gel. The 130 opens rapidly but doesn't do more than about 9" or so. I'm still playing with my load and am hoping to find a velocity that allows for 12" of penetration. It may not be possible with this particular bullet.

The 145 is a different story. It seems to perform better at high speed. At 1,000 fps the bullet goes to about 11.5" in bare gel and about 14" after clothing. Backing it down to about 900fps might help a little with penetration at the expense of some expansion.

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[Tokarev]

Now this is more like it!

This is two of the GT Bullets LSWCHP fired through heavy clothing. Muzzle velocity is right at 850 fps.

Both bullets performed nearly identically in terms of penetration, expansion and recovered weight.

This load certainly warrants more experimentation, that's for sure. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/4008caeb0823cd46b78654afd6ddaf2d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/5e83a23cb0a1027a4a68ae487375ceae.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/c4c9b2180ab9f3e200df2dbfddae02ce.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/301e7f75f65e55fda64bb6dcf624e4e7.jpg

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[Duelist]

That’s a lot faster than the factory ones you tested before. Those look pretty good.

[camsdaddy]

What is the recoiled like with the GT bullets.

[Tokarev]

That’s a lot faster than the factory ones you tested before. Those look pretty good.Yes. It is only two bullets fired into an old gel block. However I'm fairly confident I'm on the right track with this bullet.

I also tried the 145gr LRN HP (actual weight seems to run closer to 150gr) in the gel. With the same charge of Unique I'm getting 850 fps but penetration was short, coming in at about 11 inches.

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[Tokarev]

What is the recoiled like with the GT bullets.Well, at 850 fps, the recoil is certainly more noticeable than the 148gr wadcutter or the 158gr LSWCHP factory load. But it still isn't bad and shouldn't be a problem. Certainly not like shooting 357 Magnum in the little gun.

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[camsdaddy]

I was thinking it would be a little stout. I was surprised the other day shooting a few +p loads I had been carrying for too long. I had gotten spoiled by my 3.0-3.5 BE under 158 LSWC I had been shooting in my 60. They were not bad just a reminder that if for no other reason I need to rotate my carry ammo far more often.

[KhanRad]

I was thinking it would be a little stout. I was surprised the other day shooting a few +p loads I had been carrying for too long. I had gotten spoiled by my 3.0-3.5 BE under 158 LSWC I had been shooting in my 60. They were not bad just a reminder that if for no other reason I need to rotate my carry ammo far more often.

Yeah, shooting Speer 135gr+P out of my 13oz M&P was downright painful. After a couple of shots, any additional shots were more jerked and groupings opened up quite a bit.

[Tokarev]

Yeah, shooting Speer 135gr+P out of my 13oz M&P was downright painful. After a couple of shots, any additional shots were more jerked and groupings opened up quite a bit.I don't think my LCR is bad at all unless I'm shooting straight up full power mags. Maybe the little spongy section of the factory grip helps?

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[5pins]

Any issues loading the GT bullet? I noticed that sometimes soft hollow points will deform when seating.

[Tokarev]

Any issues loading the GT bullet? I noticed that sometimes soft hollow points will deform when seating.Not that I noticed.

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[valian]

I think the low velocity of the LHP load is due to your LCR being 357 magnum. It usually runs around 800 out of 2 inch bbls. but a 25 fps drop or a little more is common shooting 38s in 357 length chambers in my experience. Even my 3 inch 357s tend to shoot this load just a hair over 800 fps which is why I don't carry it in those guns. By comparison my 3 inch 38s do closer to 850 with the LHP load

[Spartan1980]

Yes. It is only two bullets fired into an old gel block. However I'm fairly confident I'm on the right track with this bullet.

I also tried the 145gr LRN HP (actual weight seems to run closer to 150gr) in the gel. With the same charge of Unique I'm getting 850 fps but penetration was short, coming in at about 11 inches.

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Sure looks like it! After seeing the pics I had to go look the alloy up. When I saw the 2-2-96 alloy in the earlier post I automatically thought of 2-6-92 that the commercial casters are using these days and it's quite hard. 4% difference in antimony makes a big difference. I used to cast a lot but it's been years since I've messed with it. I have the great Lyman 358156 gas check mold and I might have to break it back out after seeing this!

[Tokarev]

I think the low velocity of the LHP load is due to your LCR being 357 magnum. It usually runs around 800 out of 2 inch bbls. but a 25 fps drop or a little more is common shooting 38s in 357 length chambers in my experience. Even my 3 inch 357s tend to shoot this load just a hair over 800 fps which is why I don't carry it in those guns. By comparison my 3 inch 38s do closer to 850 with the LHP loadGood point about 38 vs 357. I will see about trying the Remington load in a dedicated 38 revolver.

I loaded ten more of my 160gr LSWCHP bullets with 5.3gr of Unique. I tried these on paper from my 4" GP100 as well as my LCR.

In the GP the load is running 970 fps. About 100 fps faster than the 2" gun.

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[Pistol Pete 10]

I can't do the gel test but I did load some 158 Hornady lead hollow points for my 642 revolver. It kicks like a mule, not fun at all. I crimped the bullets to the max and round number 5 was always pulled part way out. I miked the bullets and found they are .357", need to be .358-.359, nothing I can do about this. I'm trying to save up a few GI cases, they tend to run a tad thicker than commercial, hoping they'll hold. Fun to play with.

[Tokarev]

I talked to Donnie Miculek (yep, that's his brother) about bullet coatings today. He says there are quite a few people using his product and there's no reason it wouldn't work with a lead HP. Down side is I don't know how far I want to go with all this. I would have to buy the bullets unsized/as cast from GT. Then I'd have to coat them myself and size them afterwards, depending on what they measure. Probably the easiest thing there would be to buy one of the little Lee sizer deals.

Or just buy the coated LSWCHP load from Underwood and see how it does....

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865930481721

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865929203769

[Spartan1980]

I talked to Donnie Miculek (yep, that's his brother) about bullet coatings today. He says there are quite a few people using his product and there's no reason it wouldn't work with a lead HP. Down side is I don't know how far I want to go with all this. I would have to buy the bullets unsized/as cast from GT. Then I'd have to coat them myself and size them afterwards, depending on what they measure. Probably the easiest thing there would be to buy one of the little Lee sizer deals.

Or just buy the coated LSWCHP load from Underwood and see how it does....

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865930481721

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865929203769

I don't see the Hi-Tek coating having any effect after the bullet has left the barrel. For your purposes it's a waste of time. Where it would be nice is if you were loading and shooting a lot of those GT bullets. Much cleaner shooting and most of the smoke is eliminated due to no wax and the lead surface of the bullet being shielded from the burning gas which could be a plus in a defensive scenario. But that's about it.

[Tokarev]

I don't see the Hi-Tek coating having any effect after the bullet has left the barrel. For your purposes it's a waste of time. Where it would be nice is if you were loading and shooting a lot of those GT bullets. Much cleaner shooting and most of the smoke is eliminated due to no wax and the lead surface of the bullet being shielded from the burning gas which could be a plus in a defensive scenario. But that's about it.

All true. I guess my ultimate plan is to convince GT that they need to sell a coated bullet. However the oven and related equipment might not be something they want to mess with.

[SD]

10 yards slow fire, S&W 640-1, 2". Shooting the #733 round from Underwood, no noticeable WC smoke, the round had a noticeable recoil over the non-+P but no where near what the #734 HC Keith round felt like. 2872428725
I talked to Donnie Miculek (yep, that's his brother) about bullet coatings today. He says there are quite a few people using his product and there's no reason it wouldn't work with a lead HP. Down side is I don't know how far I want to go with all this. I would have to buy the bullets unsized/as cast from GT. Then I'd have to coat them myself and size them afterwards, depending on what they measure. Probably the easiest thing there would be to buy one of the little Lee sizer deals.

Or just buy the coated LSWCHP load from Underwood and see how it does....

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865930481721

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check?variant=7865929203769

[xcop]

I fired several different 38 and a couple of 357 rounds from my 2.25in sp101 into a Clear Ballistics Block at 10 feet. Clothing barrier was a layer of 14oz denim, a sweatshirt and then a thick T shirt (Hanes Beefy T). 28793

Penetration was 14.75in and the expansion was .621x.603

This was the gas check version

[Tokarev]

I fired several different 38 and a couple of 357 rounds from my 2.25in sp101 into a Clear Ballistics Block at 10 feet. Clothing barrier was a layer of 14oz denim, a sweatshirt and then a thick T shirt (Hanes Beefy T). 28793

Penetration was 14.75in and the expansion was .621x.603

This was the gas check versionWhat were your velocities?

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[xcop]

What were your velocities?

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Cant say .....the dept armorer killed the range chrono on the first shot of some 9mm we were testing

[Tokarev]

Cant say .....the dept armorer killed the range chrono on the first shot of some 9mm we were testingBeen there. Done that. I guess anything set in front of a muzzle will get shot eventually.

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[the Schwartz]

Long overdue but I finally shot a couple 38 Special lead bullet loads into 10% organic gel. I used a Ruger LCR for the test. Gel was shot from ten feet.

The first load is a full wadcutter from Double Tap. This is not billed as a +P load and is loaded with a cast double ended bullet not a swaged or hollow base wadcutter.

Velocity of the Double Tap was pretty low, not surprisingly. My Caldwell chronograph showed an average of about 735 feet per second. Recoil, as expected, was mild.

I fired three rounds of the DT load. Two into bare gel and one through FBI clothing. The bare gel bullets passed through my 20" block while the bullet fired through clothing went to about 15.5 inches.

Note the dark smudge pictured behind the bullet. This is a plug of clothing that was shed as the bullet neared the end of its travel.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/85f401875a7aca011adc0442f0e7b025.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/e29d5421799a881c7b6fa6566a1f41a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180623/b24c7e8b580580d63898da9a89447e46.jpg

Is this the .38 Special wadcutter that you tested above?

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=629

The average velocity that you got seems to be right in line with the 2''-barrel velocities advertised by DT.

Predictive modeling shows that you should be getting about 17.25'' (Q-model) to 19.36'' (mTHOR model) to 20.79'' (MacPherson model) of penetration with that WC at 735 fps in 10% gelatin.

BTW, I find your work to be very admirable. It takes quite a commitment to go through all that you are doing. Thanks and Kudos!

[Tokarev]

Is this the .38 Special wadcutter that you tested above?

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=629

The average velocity that you got seems to be right in line with the 2''-barrel velocities advertised by DT.



Yep. That's the stuff.

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[the Schwartz]

Thanks.

[Wayne Dobbs]

If you're interested in buying the same wadcutter used by Double Tap and Buffalo Bore for their .38 Special loads, you can buy it here:

http://snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-coated-500ct/

I've shot several thousand of them over 3.5 grains of Bullseye for a full power WC load. Simply excellent.

Also, look at these articles by one of the most experienced guys in the industry:

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm

[the Schwartz]

If you're interested in buying the same wadcutter used by Double Tap and Buffalo Bore for their .38 Special loads, you can buy it here:

http://snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-coated-500ct/

I've shot several thousand of them over 3.5 grains of Bullseye for a full power WC load. Simply excellent.



Wayne,

From what barrel length are you firing them and what kind of velocities are you getting with that handload?

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne,

From what barrel length are you firing them and what kind of velocities are you getting with that handload?

Smith and Wesson Model 15-7 4" - 780 fps; unknown velocities from several 1 7/8" and 3" barrel revolvers. Seems to shoot to same POA/POI as standard pressure 158 grain ammo.

[Tokarev]

A post on another forum reminded me about this thread. I had planned to mess around a bit more with 38 but the stuff really fell off the radar.

Did we already discuss the actual Buffalo Bore bullet? Here it is:

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-38-357-158-gr-swc-hp-per-100-in-a-plastic-ammo-box.html

Another cast hollowpoint option. I can see how the thinner walls at the edges of the pentagon might help the bullet expand. Or it could just create weak points that will break off immediately.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/shop/page/2/?filter_caliber=357




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