Toughest Finishes, 2018

[Gun Mutt]

My sweat is pure acid, I've rusted every single pistol I've ever carried save for my Robar NP3'd 1911 and my older gen3 by-god-Tennifer Glocks, which I'm back to carrying because my G43 has started to show rust on the slide and this is completely unsat.

What's the consensus of the cognoscenti on hell and back durable coatings/treatments/finishes/whatever in this modern age?

My many thanks in advance.

[theJanitor]

NP3, IonBond, Melonite over stainless

I'm always more worried about the small parts that sometimes DON'T get treating that are prone to corrosion. A rusty slide just has a bad surface finish. But a tool steel sear or hammer hooks in a 1911 always worry me. if you're looking to corrosion proof the glock, then I'd go NP3, as they coat small parts too

[Gun Mutt]

Good point on the internals. I was discussing the same thing with the folks at Birdsong, they also do the internals with their Black T...but I don't know anyone who's ever had that on their pistol.

[theJanitor]

Tam’s early PRO might have birdsong finish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sigfan26]

NP3 or NP3+,

[farscott]

If "toughest finish" is only with respect to corrosion applied in the aftermarket, Robar's NP3+ is probably the best single choice. The issue with finishes is that every one is a compromise, and the user has to choose the compromise that makes sense for them. For example, if the pistol has to be black, NP3+ is not a good choice. Finishes are a balance of appearance, adhesion, lubricity, abrasion resistance, thickness, etc.

A good corrosion-proof finish for the external surfaces that does not cost a fortune is CeraKote. For the internals, NP3 is a great choice as it is corrosion resistant, has a high lubricity, has great adhesion, and coats evenly, but it is pricey.

Nitriding can be a great finish if one knows the underlying alloy and picks the proper process. Some alloys are incompatible with the QPQ (Quench, Polish, Quench) version (like the original S&W M&P stainless slides that rusted) while others work well with QPQ. Dimensional changes are always a concern with nitriding. Hard chrome risks hydrogen embrittlement. Cerakote coatings can be too thick and cause function issues. IonBond can have irregular coating thickness and coverage issues. Nickel boron has issues with losing lubricity. The polymer finishes from Wilson Combat, Birdsong, and Robar are great for corrosion resistance, but lack abrasion resistance.

[Chipster]

I’ve had several pistols finished by Walter Birdsong. Top notch and no issues. They’ll wear, but as far as I’ve seen, there’s never been a rust issue.

[Cory]

I'm not a metallurgy specialist, or even real knowledgeable about finishes... but when I think of the best finishes there are two thi gs come to mind: Dan Wesson's Duty Treat and Dave Severn's hardhat.

I think tongue twisters call them a nitroferretic carbonizing process. Dont know what all that means, but I know its strong enough that most folks wont do any machining on guns that have it. That says alot.

-Cory

[theJanitor]

I'm not a metallurgy specialist, or even real knowledgeable about finishes... but when I think of the best finishes there are two thi gs come to mind: Dan Wesson's Duty Treat and Dave Severn's hardhat.

I think tongue twisters call them a nitroferretic carbonizing process. Dont know what all that means, but I know its strong enough that most folks wont do any machining on guns that have it. That says alot.

-Cory

When I had Drake Oldham Melonite a Stainless 1911 years ago, we had to be sure it was in it's final configuration before doing the metal treatment. He was clear that he had no intention of doing any machining, post-melonite.

[Spartan1980]

As discussed already, what the substrate is (specific steel type) plays a big role in what is the "best". If I were building a "ultimate hard use" gun that needs to hold up to everything I'd make it out of AISI 4140, 4145 or 4150, nitride it and Ceracoat over that if on a budget. If money was no option, it would be the same with Robar's NP3. Industrial hard chrome is pretty dang tough too but has bling that may not be wanted.

[WOLFIE]

Are gen 3 glocks that are currently being made treated with tennifer?

[greyghost]

Are gen 3 glocks that are currently being made treated with tennifer?

No. Glock stop using Tenifer around 2011...

[CSW]

Hardchrome is pretty tuff too, if you like the look.
When Springfield first intro'd the XD, from the HS2000, I bought one.
About four weeks in, a 'bloom' started to develop on the slide.
Called Springfield, they acknowledged that in fact that yes, there was an issue with the treatment of the slides, and offered to put their "Armory kote" on the slide. I declined, as I was wary of the spray and bake finishes back then.

Instead, I spoke with Shari Tripp at STI, and had the slide and internals hard chromed, with the raised flats lightly polished. $60 bucks[back then] and no more issues with rust.

Hardchrome has a high lubricity also, and is an extremely hard finish.

Owned a hardchromed 1911 too, no issues there either, as well as a BHP Practical, with a hardchrome frame and black slide.

[JAD]

Hard chrome is generally porous and is not an anti-corrosive finish. It is a pretty baller wear finish. They have a barrier layer under the chrome, probably EN, and that and the polishing are what limited your corrosion. It’s a fine approach but NP3+ is by far the best choice for the OP.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Dan Wesson Duty Treat is the best I’ve encountered followed close by SIG’s Nitron.

[NPV]

Nitron = Ion Bond/DLC
Duty Treat = Melonite

Too many different names for the same product/process

[Clobbersaurus]

I’m pretty impressed with Glock Gen 5’s finish. Not sure how it holds up to sweat, but it’s holding up really well under normal daily practice conditions. Far better than my older Gen 3.

[Screwball]

My go to is CCR’s CPII... if the gun can be done in it. They don’t do long guns or alloy frames. Glock, LCP, PX4, bolts, and even magazines and Garand clips.

https://i.imgur.com/OtdGpnL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/00ep3R9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AmbjaIB.jpg

If it falls into either of those categories... NP3 Plus. I have two shotguns (870P and Ithaca 37) and my S&W 642-1 done in it.

https://i.imgur.com/LzQ6Bjj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nxZL2ZF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SmESRcF.jpg

CCR is A LOT less money than Robar, and the work is identical. You aren’t getting a lower quality with CCR. But can have a bit of a wait.

I have three guns coming up for refinishing; TAC-14, P938, and my CZ SP-01. The CZ will likely be the only one going to CCR. All others taking the trip to Robar.

[HCM]

I’m pretty impressed with Glock Gen 5’s finish. Not sure how it holds up to sweat, but it’s holding up really well under normal daily practice conditions. Far better than my older Gen 3.

My understanding is the Gen 5 /M finish is DLC.

[Mjolnir]

Melonite (Ferritic Nitrocarburization) covered with a few microns of electroless Nickel topped with W DLC.

Melonite performs better in salt water corrosion testing than any of the other coatings.

And the PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) coatings are far tougher with greater wear resistance and adherence than NP3 or any other coating for that matter.

Glock nailed it with their choice of finish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ralph]

I agree. I had a CZ compact(99021) done in black nitride (melenoite, tennifer, same thing) anyway, it turned out great, however as someone pointed out, doing small parts may /may not be a good idea, a few weeks ago I dug the little CZ out and took it to the range, it's stupid accurate to say the least. When I got home and I went to field strip it I found the slide stop had broke, odd, as the gun has a low round count, maybe 1000-1200rds on it. To their credit, CZ promptly replaced the slide stop free of charge, and had a new one to me within a week. The more I think about it, I think that when the slide stop was nitrided, the shaft of the stop became brittle, and since it bears alot of stress when the gun is fired, it snapped.. I also had the saftey levers black itrided as well, but I don't expect any problems there, as these see little use, and aren't under any kind of stress when they are..

I've also had a little experience with Robar as well. I had bought 3 of the PX4 mags that they sell that are already coated in NP3+ . I carry the PX4cc daily, and carry a spare mag as a reload. After about 4-5 months I noticed that the NP3+ was peeling, and rusting..I called Robar, and they asked if I would send them pics, which I did. I called a few minutes after sending the pics, just to make sure they got them, and they were shocked, they told me that it looked like the metal prep wasn't done correctly and the finish peeled and rusted. They then told me to box them up and they'd redo them, and ship back to me, as well as expedite the process. They e- mailed me a recipt when they got my mags, with a completion date of 6/20/18.. On 6/20 they were delivered to my doorstep. The mag that was rusted, pitted, was recoated with NP3+ I assuming that the metal prep was done correctly this time. It has pits from the rust, but it appears that they've been throughly cleaned out, they're smooth to the touch and I'm wearing it right now. I don't expect any more problems.

[TX_Southpaw]

Not trying to "thread jack", but does anyone have long term experience with Robar's Poly T2?

I've seen a lot of positive things said about NP3/NP3+, is Poly T2 in that same league? Or is it a fancy/expensive name for Cerakote, Duracote, or Polycoat?

[taroman]

Hard chrome over stainless has done the trick for me.
27398

[Spartan1980]

I agree. I had a CZ compact(99021) done in black nitride (melenoite, tennifer, same thing) anyway, it turned out great, however as someone pointed out, doing small parts may /may not be a good idea, a few weeks ago I dug the little CZ out and took it to the range, it's stupid accurate to say the least. When I got home and I went to field strip it I found the slide stop had broke, odd, as the gun has a low round count, maybe 1000-1200rds on it. To their credit, CZ promptly replaced the slide stop free of charge, and had a new one to me within a week. The more I think about it, I think that when the slide stop was nitrided, the shaft of the stop became brittle, and since it bears alot of stress when the gun is fired, it snapped.. I also had the saftey levers black itrided as well, but I don't expect any problems there, as these see little use, and aren't under any kind of stress when they are..


The temps of the nitride process aren't high enough to change the metallurgical properties of steels and this is a known issue with CZ 75 design. All the guys shooting them in USPSA seriously carry a spare in their range bag. It's not a big deal, just be cognizant of it and keep your eye on it. A little grease in the barrel lug is a good idea.

[ralph]

The temps of the nitride process aren't high enough to change the metallurgical properties of steels and this is a known issue with CZ 75 design. All the guys shooting them in USPSA seriously carry a spare in their range bag. It's not a big deal, just be cognizant of it and keep your eye on it. A little grease in the barrel lug is a good idea.

I was under the impression that the temps invloved with nitriding were higher.. If not, no problem I guess it could've been a bad one..that's ok I have a spare slide stop...

[Spartan1980]

I was under the impression that the temps invloved with nitriding were higher.. If not, no problem I guess it could've been a bad one..that's ok I have a spare slide stop...

Nope. AISI 4140 steel has to be hardened and tempered prior to nitride because the temp of hardening and tempering are higher and would just undo the surface layer of the nitride.

The only instance I can think of would be very remote and it's some PH stainless alloys are aged pretty low, say 950 degrees. If you take them higher they will re-age to a lesser hardness but still be in an aged and hardened condition, just less hard. These would never be used in a firearm though due to really high hardness and cost. Most firearms are made out of a 4xx series stainless and the same basic principles of the 4140 chrome-moly apply. It's a cheaper type to buy, easier to machine and generally suitable for guns.

[Gun Mutt]

Great responses...thank you!