J frame accuracy

[CCT125US]

Recent threads have prompted me into looking at J frames..... it also helps that local price is $369 for a 442. It has been many years since I have done any amount of shooting with a revolver. My question is what type of accuracy are folks getting out of their Jframes. The expert at the LGS said that it makes a great belly gun..... I am sure however these little guns can be accurate in the right hands. As a point of reference with my LCP a drill that I do is to place 3 3x5 cards at 7yd. I take turns shooting 2H, SHO and WHO in pairs of two. I usually have a ragged hole in all cards. Is this an acceptable level of expectation from a J frame? What standards are others shooting to with a pocket revolver?

[ACP230]

It depends on the day, and my state of practice. I am quite rusty at the moment, for instance.

On a good day, I can shoot my S&W snubs quite well from three to 25 yards. One real good day I shot a four or five inch group, double action, at 50 yards from one of my 649s.
I did better with that one cylinder at 50 than I had done at 25 just before it.

The first time I tried longer shots with my old M49, I shot at a quart oil jug at 60 yards. Scared it pretty good with the first cylinder and got it with the second or third round
from the second.

My son made a 100 yard shot with my S&W M15 two-inch. One shot, one silhouette. That M15 is one of the easiest snubs to shoot that I've used.

He has good eyes, and is a Bullseye shooter too, the young punk!

[HeadHunter]

I can hit a 2/3ds IPSC steel silhouette at 25 yards about 90% with my Model 36 that has the old style sights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keECzDXhndo

[GJM]

Hamilton Bowen discusses J frame accuracy on his web site, and concludes that the issue with J frames is not their lack of accuracy, but rather their sights which are not conducive to accuracy. I have two J frames fitted with Bowen sights, and they shoot far better than most M&P 9's.

[TCinVA]

I agree with the above. J frames can be mechanically accurate, but the almost vestigial sights, small grip, and heavy trigger make it difficult to wring that accuracy out of them. Simply swapping the usual grips found on them with the old Pachmayer J frame grips, a la:

589

...has always made a huge difference for me in how easy it is to get the best accuracy out of the J. A good set of Crimson Trace grips makes an even larger difference as use of the laser typically gives me more precision than the iron sights.

With a better sighting reference they would be much more usable. I would love to see S&W produce J all their J frames with similar sights as they put on the NightGuard series of revolvers. (even what's in the pic above is an improvement) It would make a huge difference. There are some smiths out there who will cut J frames and put good sights on them. If I was using a J as my primary rather than a backup, I would consider investing in that.

If you know how to run a revolver trigger (rolling break, constant trigger movement, etc) and you can get a decent sight picture you can generally hit anything you want with one. I compensate on the grip angle by using Jerry Michulek's J frame grip:

590

I use that grip for all handguns that are J frame or under (and even for some larger revolvers) only I modify it slightly by keeping my left thumb below the base joint of my right thumb to ensure no slide bite. I can very effectively "vice" the handgun like that and keep it in place as I pull the typically heavy trigger. Using that grip I can milk impressive accuracy out of even a Ruger LCP using the iron sights.

[Al T.]

I have a rough and ready COF for my J frame. It's a plate rack (10 inch plates) at 12ish yards. I can consistently go five for five at a rapid pace.

IMHO, the key to J frames is a tight WH thumb over SH thumb grip. The better sights help too. :)

[GJM]

A Smith N frame with a good trigger, and Hogue mono grips with the finger grooves buzzed off, is my single favorite handgun for hitting steel at distance fast. Just wished they were lighter, held more cartridges and concealed better.

I am traveling, but will try to remember to post a picture of my J frame with Bowen sights -- they are incredible. Those sights, combined with CT laser grips, make for a great shooting small revolver.

Here is a link to the Bowen web site, showing the J frame sights:

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/smith_wesson_basic_packages.html

And, blast from the past, here is my wife out in rural Alaska, shooting a .500, and carrying her 329, before she switched stances:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/CAM500SWSmall.jpg

[Festus]

I agree that J frames can be just as accurate as larger revolvers. It is the precision in aiming that falls short. Here are 2 guns with Bowen sights. At 25 yds keeping all 5 rounds in the A zone is not hard at all with these good sights.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f220/Festus1/DSCN1008.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f220/Festus1/DSCN1014.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f220/Festus1/DSCN1012.jpg

[NEPAKevin]

Many years ago, I set up a stage at an IDPA match that had a popper at around 65 yards. There was a lot of grumbling and whining about the distance of the steel until a couple guys with snubbies demonstrated that while a challenging shot, it was far from impossible. A j-frame with the right ammo and a skilled operator can shut a lot of mouths.

[CDR_Glock]

I can easily hit at 25 yards, controlled pairs, 8" plates. 50 yards was a stretch for me. My friend can hit 50 at will, 4/5.

[Chuck Haggard]

I routinely shoot our required qual with my BUG 642s, the KS C-POST course that you can see here;

http://www.kscpost.org/target.htm

We have to use the IALEFI-Q target, we choose to use the version that has Manny Kapelsohn pointing a revolver laid over the scoring "milk bottle". I can, most of the time, run the qual with all of my rounds in the pie plate area in the center of the target. I also often self modify the course and run all of the three rounds strings of fire from the 3/5/7 yard line as failure drills, keeping all of the head shots in the small circle in the target's face.

Ammo that shoots to YOUR sights is key. Tom Givens wrote an article on the snubby ammo thing IIRC.

[FotoTomas]

I can routinely scare a steel silhouette at 100 yards and hit it two or three times per cylinderfull. As mentioned above they are scary accurate if you can get past the sights and trigger. I was present some many years ago when a S&W model 36 went head to head against a S&W model 14, both in a ransom rest and fired single action. The 36 and 14 were the same as far as accuracy was concerned. Both were right in the same range of two inches or less at 25 yards. This from a 2" 36 and a 6" 14....Scary accurate. Now if I only shot as well as my revolvers! :)

[shootist26]

I put 200 rds downrange on Saturday with my 642 w/ CTC grips. Was shooting a couple of plate racks and IPSC steel silhouette targets at 50ft or so. Steel silhouette was stupid easy to keep all my rounds in the center chest area, SHO or WHO. Plates were a bit tougher but still straightforward.

Some red Testors enamel paint on the front sight helps immensely. Same goes for the APEX trigger kit.

[Lost River]

Hamilton Bowen discusses J frame accuracy on his web site, and concludes that the issue with J frames is not their lack of accuracy, but rather their sights which are not conducive to accuracy. I have two J frames fitted with Bowen sights, and they shoot far better than most M&P 9's.


Reviving an old thread for the fun of it and because I've been shooting my 442 a bit lately.

LOVE the Bowen sights and really should get a set. I run CT laser grips on my Centennial and consider them almost mandatory for a gun with stock S&W sights, especially if low light shooting is a possibility.

At 25 yards, I am good for keeping all of my hits in the A and C zone of a standard IPSC target with irons, and can usually shrink the group by about 1/2 with the CT laser grips, providing the lighting conditions are good for the laser.

Not the best shot with a snubbie, by a long shot, but it is funny to beat guys during quals with a 442 when they are shooting their full size duty pistol... :)

[1slow]

640 Pro has full sized 3 dot tritium fixed sights. Both front and rear are in dovetails. Makes 25 yd head shots more possible.

[Rich]

I`ve bought 6 J frames from 1980 to 5-2012

M37 38spl

M640 357mag
M649 357mag

M640 38spl+P
M637-1 38spl-P
M642-2 38spl+P


All 6 have a POA/POI =158gr
All 6 are HIGHLY accurate using 148HBWC or 158SWC , 158SWC HP
5rd ragged hole groups/ clovers are common at 7yards.


The 640 and 649 in 357Magnum I shoot the best of all.
The heaviness of the steel frame soaks up the 38spl and the 38spl+P
I also prefer to use a 3finger grip when ever I can.

Using the 649 357M and shooting FBI loads / Bill drills I had the bullet jump forward and jam up my cylinder. Its only happen once to me. and I've had lots of trigger time with the Jframes.

[Rich]

640 Pro has full sized 3 dot tritium fixed sights. Both front and rear are in dovetails. Makes 25 yd head shots more possible.

I wish I could pocket carry a 640 357mag.

Although I've been toying with the Idea of AIWB the 640 and pocket carry the 642.

[CGA]

Just thought I'd pass this along ... Bowen no longer offers the J-frame sight installations and have dropped them from their catalog owing to a lack of time and staff.

[Keltyke]

A good J frame is as accurate as any other gun - with practice. They DO require more work to shoot consistently accurately, but it can be done, and the little bugger is more easily concealable than many other options. The right grip and stance will make the difference. And yes, a 3 x 5 card at 7 yards is a VERY credible group.

[Beat Trash]

J frames are accurate guns. The issue is if the shooter can shoot them accurately. My problem with the J frame is the grip. I like the boot grip as a compromise between being concealable and being to grip well. Larger grips such as the Pachmeyer help a lot for controlling the gun, but negate the conceal ability of the gun for me.

But with that said, there will always be at least one 642 floating around in my safe. For what I use them for, J frames are accurate enough.

[LHS]

About 7 years ago, I did a BUG class with a J-frame. The only mods I did were CT grips (the then-brand-new LG405) and a light action job by Nelson Ford. Over the course of that day, I discovered that the J-frame is a hell of a lot more accurate than is rumored, and merely difficult to shoot due to crappy sights, small grip and heavy trigger. By the end of the day, I was doing WHO headshots on an IDPA target @ 15 yards on command for the class champion shoot-off. Granted, I eventually lost, but I was still making those WHO headshots.

This weekend's IDPA match is going to include an 'outlaw' BUG match shooting the same COF as the full-size guns, including drawing from concealment and reloading on the clock. I'm going to rock the J-frame and see if I can still do OK with it.

[Blayglock]

When I J Frame I carry a M&P 340 in my pocket and a 640 Pro on my ankle. I like the idea of 640 appendix carry though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MSparks909]

Saw this and thought of this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwVK_FxGZk

[LtDave]

Back in the day, to carry a J frame at the FBI you had to qualify with it on the standard course of fire which included 50 yard shots. There were a LOT of guys carrying J frames. A J frame is as mechanically accurate as the larger guns, but managing the sights and trigger are tougher.

The other issue is getting one that shoots to the sights. I've probably gone thru 10 or 12 and only found one that did so out of the box. I have another one that required some file work on the front sight to raise the POI and get it zero'd. All the others I've owned shot some amount left or right and required Kentucky windage at anything more than 15 yards or so.

[Rich]

The other issue is getting one that shoots to the sights. I've probably gone thru 10 or 12 and only found one that did so out of the box. I have another one that required some file work on the front sight to raise the POI and get it zero'd. All the others I've owned shot some amount left or right and required Kentucky windage at anything more than 15 yards or so.

STRANGE?

Every single one of my J frames had a POA/POI =158 gr or FBI load.
M37 38spl
M640 357mag
M649 357mag
M640 38spl+P
M637 38spl+P
M642 38spl+P

Also my fixed sighted K frames M13 /M10 have a 158gr POA/POI

I guess S&W thinks the ideal weight is 158grs for the 38spl. I tend to agree with them.

I don't care for the 110-135 grs SD loads. And think we would be better off with a medium weight bullet . Like a Federal HST 158gr Bullet in +P only.

Hell I would even settle for a 147gr HST+P. To up date there old 147gr+P+ Hydra Shok.

Come on ATK


Its that or ask S&W to set POA/POI to 110CD or 110 Barnes or 130 ranger B or 135GD

[Totem Polar]

^^^I also find that interesting. Sadly, I only have two J-Frames at the moment (36-1 and 642) but they are interchangeable with 158gr ammo; ie. I can get cloverleaf groups slow fire at 7 yards with one gun, and switch to the other for the next 5 rounds and keep the same group going. Last time I did an extended J-only outing, I also rented a 340PD to check out the impossibly light weight, and it only opened up the dual-snubby group a little, and I'm positive that this was all me not used to the gun's trigger and feather weight.

Now, the LCR I rented at the same time was barely in the same zip code: it grouped well, but waaaaaay off from the 3 J's POI!

I'm with Rich with regard to S&W sight regulation and 158s, especially given that I've owned way more K-frames over the years, and have shot those a lot (relatively speaking, I'd add, on this forum). I'm also with Rich on the idea of a new 147 HST +P or +P+ Load, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Lastly, I agree that the J Pachmayer compac makes them *much* easier to shoot! but at that point they end up knocking on the door of stock model 12 concealability, so I don't keep my J's so outfitted. OMMV.

[45dotACP]

STRANGE?

Every single one of my J frames had a POA/POI =158 gr or FBI load.
M37 38spl
M640 357mag
M649 357mag
M640 38spl+P
M637 38spl+P
M642 38spl+P

Also my fixed sighted K frames M13 /M10 have a 158gr POA/POI

I guess S&W thinks the ideal weight is 158grs for the 38spl. I tend to agree with them.

I don't care for the 110-135 grs SD loads. And think we would be better off with a medium weight bullet . Like a Federal HST 158gr Bullet in +P only.

Hell I would even settle for a 147gr HST+P. To up date there old 147gr+P+ Hydra Shok.

Come on ATK


Its that or ask S&W to set POA/POI to 110CD or 110 Barnes or 130 ranger B or 135GD

Just a thought about the 158 grain sight regulation...could it be due to the fact that to raise the POI of a fixed sight revo, you need to file the front sight down. Thus if you take your J-frame to a smith and say "I want this to shoot the 125 grain bullets to the POA" then they simply file down the front sight a bit...

Because there is something to do with the lighter bullets impacting really low. Just kinda thinking out loud.

Too bad the list of gunsmiths who work on revolvers is getting lower and lower :(

[Chuck Haggard]

I think it's more to do with the fact that for decades there was one load for the .38 special, and that was a 158gr RNL from any of the big name ammo makers.

Then came big changes, like 158gr LSWCs...........

[Rich]

I think it's more to do with the fact that for decades there was one load for the .38 special, and that was a 158gr RNL from any of the big name ammo makers.

Then came big changes, like 158gr LSWCs...........

Yes

And the old school FBI load is still a good load . well except for the steel test. LOL. Also notice the win 125gr SJHP failed it as well.

[Bigstrap3]

Hello, first post here. I called Bowen and they do not offer after market sights for the j- frame any longer and don't anticipate doing so at a later date. I shoot a 638 air weight and am curious if anyone else offers similar sights to those on the 640 pro ? Or the Bowen sights. In reading about the 640 pro it mentions trijicon night sights, is it possible to buy some thing from trijicon and have my 638 cut to accept these sights thanks much.