Issue Shooting Left

[Captains1911]

I’m right-handed, shooting Glocks usually, and have been having an issue where almost all my hits are consistently dead left when shooting at speed. I’m a fairly experienced shooter (expert class IDPA), with solid fundamentals, but I’m almost positive this is a trigger control issue, I just can’t seem to correct it. I do lots of dry fire practice, with real guns and SIRT pistol, and as far as I can tell the muzzle isn’t moving left when I break the trigger. I’ve played with putting more trigger finger into the trigger guard, and adjusting strong/weak hand grip pressure, with zero results.

Just to give an idea of the severity, today I was shooting an IDPA target at about 7 yards, and almost all my hits were were located in the left half side of the -0, elevation was fine. Very consistent, just left.

Any ideas on how I might correct this would be appreciated. 

[JCS]

Is your pistol zeroed?

[LOKNLOD]

You say when shooting at speed, so can we assume this left bias isn't occurring at slower firing rates?

How fast is fast, before you start seeing it show up? 1 shot per second? per half second? only at "hammer" speeds?

[Captains1911]

Is your pistol zeroed?

Yes it’s zeroed. I can shoot dead center if I take my time.

[Captains1911]

You say when shooting at speed, so can we assume this left bias isn't occurring at slower firing rates?

How fast is fast, before you start seeing it show up? 1 shot per second? per half second? only at "hammer" speeds?

Any faster than about 1 shot per seconds. Today I was shooting about 0.4-0.5 sec splits. Slowing down a bit didn’t seem to help much.

[HCM]

Search is your friend.



https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16356-Do-Glock-pistols-shoot-left-and-if-so-why

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14022-How-Important-Is-The-Perfect-Grip/page2

SURF, a member here has a video which is very helpful as well.


http://youtu.be/L6-eJTS_5qg

[Larry T]

Since you're accurate at slow fire, I wonder if when shooting at defensive / competition speed are you getting a flash sight picture with front sight simply "in" the rear sight but not really centered - "equal light" on each side of the front sight?

[RJ]

I’ve found this simple diagnostic drill really helpful in figuring out what I was doing on follow up shots:

https://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk

In Dry Practice, I find wearing a pair of full lens reading glasses really let’s me see what the front sight is doing in the trigger press:

Pyramex Safety Emerge Safety Glasses with Reader Lenses Option https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E5NXH6M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_h.qhBbQ6ZKEM3

A small AAA headlamp can really help as well:

Petzl - TIKKA+ 110 Lumens, Blue https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H7KAHCC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_zbrhBbDX4JRC0

[CraigS]

[QUOTE=Rich_Jenkins;749759]
In Dry Practice, I find wearing a pair of full lens reading glasses really let’s me see what the front sight is doing in the trigger press:

I also found using my computer glasses (both lenses set to focus at front sight distance which is the same as monitor distance) helped. So a month ago I got a new pair of glasses. The entire left lens (left eye dominant) focuses at sight distance and the right lens is a bifocal w/ far focus in the top and sight focus in the bottom. Having the sights perfectly sharp and the target just slightly blurred really helps me.

[GuanoLoco]

I suggest Ben Stoeger’s Dry Fire Reloaded (https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=dry+fire+reloaded&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=182800960308&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4611393948876160224&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012571&hvtargid=kwd-478730237912&ref=pd_sl_1kl3ofmhzi_e). Drill: Trigger Control at Speed.

I also suggest Skills and Drills Reloaded (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1985644657/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvpv2_2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3233965245922079678&pd_rd_wg=4EMBW&pf_rd_r=7NT0MRV64PNKJ3K7Z5E2&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-bottom-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_i=1985644657&pd_rd_w=rhC8C&pf_rd_i=dry+fire+reloaded&pd_rd_r=f9f318bd-3856-4300-8590-cd60608a530f&ie=UTF8&qid=1528637545&sr=2) for live-fire drills.

[JohnO]

as far as I can tell the muzzle isn’t moving left when I break the trigger. 

Well something is off for lack of a better way of putting it. Either your sights are not aligned when the shot breaks or you are aimed left. How this is happening must be determined.

Can you describe your presentation? Since you are experiencing your problem "at speed" I'm thinking about how you are getting the gun on target and if you have any extra English on the gun at the end of the presentation that is causing your consistent left problem. You could be verifying your sight alignment before the gun is stopped.

Have you done any Natural Point of Aim dry fire drills? Focus on a point on the target. Begin your presentation. When you acquire a firing grip in the holster close your eyes and finish your presentation. Open your eyes and look where the gun is pointed. You can do a similar drill just by pointing in at the target and closing your eyes and counting to 10. Again open your eyes and see where you are pointing. Are you consistently drifting to the left on the target? You may need to adjust your stance in relation to the target.

[randyflycaster]

Never used the hook and curl method. In fact, this is the first time I heard of the technique. I will try it. Do any of you folks use it? What kind of results have you had?
Randy

[JohnO]

Never used the hook and curl method.

What is that?

[randyflycaster]

Watch the above video. It's explained about halfway through. My instructor taught me that when I pull the trigger my finger tip should be perpendicular to the trigger and I should execute the press by bending only my second joint. Still, my shots are going off to the side.

Randy

[Jeff22]

I suddenly began experiencing the same thing last spring. I'm a right handed shooter running a G22 and a G35.

Another instructor noticed that my support hand grip was inconsistent -- grip tension weakened if I was firing more than about 3 rounds. I had no idea I was doing that.

Once that problem was identified I went back to normal, which is reliably accurate and not very fast . . .

[psalms144.1]

When it comes to shooting Glocks left, I have tried EVERYTHING to counteract. What I've come to as a solution for me is (a) sight offset (not radical, but noticeable) and focus on support hand grip. I've tried more finger, less finger, and fishhook finger (the latter worked best, but was so different from how I shoot any other platform that I almost never use it without conscious thought) - none were consistent. When I AGGRESSIVELY grip the pistol with my support hand, I shoot center with whatever random act of violence I inflict on my trigger.

This is becoming more and more apparent to me as I age and a combination of laziness and multiple old injuries to my support hand/wrist are making my support grip strength more and more "iffy." As little as 8 years ago, I was able to shoot a "Now" drill (draw, fire a full magazine, emergency reload, and fire an additional shot) at 7 yards into a ragged hole group about the size of a golf ball consistently in under 6 seconds. I can still make the time, but the group is much larger and more left than before; unless I consciously grip the snot out of the pistol with my support hand...

[spinmove_]

When it comes to shooting Glocks left, I have tried EVERYTHING to counteract. What I've come to as a solution for me is (a) sight offset (not radical, but noticeable) and focus on support hand grip. I've tried more finger, less finger, and fishhook finger (the latter worked best, but was so different from how I shoot any other platform that I almost never use it without conscious thought) - none were consistent. When I AGGRESSIVELY grip the pistol with my support hand, I shoot center with whatever random act of violence I inflict on my trigger.

This is becoming more and more apparent to me as I age and a combination of laziness and multiple old injuries to my support hand/wrist are making my support grip strength more and more "iffy." As little as 8 years ago, I was able to shoot a "Now" drill (draw, fire a full magazine, emergency reload, and fire an additional shot) at 7 yards into a ragged hole group about the size of a golf ball consistently in under 6 seconds. I can still make the time, but the group is much larger and more left than before; unless I consciously grip the snot out of the pistol with my support hand...

Pretty much this. Glocks tend to be unforgiving of grip deficiencies due to a weird combo of ergos and it’s light weight. If your hands start slipping, it gets even worse.

Get your support hand planted firmly on there and keep the pressure on as if you were trying to stop someone/something from bleeding. If necessary, find a way to increase grip friction. I find this part is especially relevant to me as I have naturally soft skin and working an IT desk job only helps keep it that way, so I can try to clamp down as hard as I want, if it’s the least bit slick from literally anything that isn’t dry, my support hand position is moving significantly during a Bill Drill.


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[Chance]

Something that was an epiphany for me after training with John McPhee (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25142-AAR-John-McPhee-SOB-Tactical-2-Day-Handgun-1-2-Apr-2017-Bastrop-TX) was that some pistols, of which Glocks are the chief offenders, simply sit slightly torqued to the left in most people's hands (if you're a right-handed shooter). There's an AAR from one of John's classes that discusses the "pistol index" here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27389-AAR-Sheriff-of-Baghdad-(John-McPhee)-1-Day-Pistol-Video-Diagnostics-WV-8-21-17).

Shifting my grip a little, and then using my support hand to correct the index when my dominant hand started to slip after multiple rounds, largely fixed the issue for me.

[spinmove_]

Something that was an epiphany for me after training with John McPhee (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25142-AAR-John-McPhee-SOB-Tactical-2-Day-Handgun-1-2-Apr-2017-Bastrop-TX) was that some pistols, of which Glocks are the chief offenders, simply sit slightly torqued to the left in most people's hands (if you're a right-handed shooter). There's an AAR from one of John's classes that discusses the "pistol index" here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27389-AAR-Sheriff-of-Baghdad-(John-McPhee)-1-Day-Pistol-Video-Diagnostics-WV-8-21-17).

Shifting my grip a little, and then using my support hand to correct the index when my dominant hand started to slip after multiple rounds, largely fixed the issue for me.

Not sure that’d work out well for me. Short fingers and cross-dominance means that I’d be turning my head quite a bit and using WAY less finger than I do now. Or closing my dominant eye and shooting that way.


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[TopShot]

I also shoot a little left when shooting my Glock Gen4.
CHECK THIS OUT !
I bought a new Glock Gen5 and when I ran the first 150 rounds through it I shot it to the right.
I found that odd and thought it might be caused by the absence of the finger grooves.
When I got home I examined it very closely and not only did I find the front sight was ever so slightly twisted to the right I found the rear sight also drifted to the right. I called Glock and they told me to get a pair of pliers and twist the front sight straight and that they are shipping out the new guns with the rear sight to the right to compensate for most people that are shooting it to the left. I can't believe he said that, Crazy !
Gun going back to Glock tomorrow.

[DAVE_M]

If you're shooting left at speed, but center during slow fire, it's your grip.

Your support hand should have full contact with the frame. Frame drag is a thing, and if you don't have a good grip, you will knuckle the gun.

[HopetonBrown]

I also shoot a little left when shooting my Glock Gen4.
CHECK THIS OUT !
I bought a new Glock Gen5 and when I ran the first 150 rounds through it I shot it to the right.
I found that odd and thought it might be caused by the absence of the finger grooves.
When I got home I examined it very closely and not only did I find the front sight was ever so slightly twisted to the right I found the rear sight also drifted to the right. I called Glock and they told me to get a pair of pliers and twist the front sight straight and that they are shipping out the new guns with the rear sight to the right to compensate for most people that are shooting it to the left. I can't believe he said that, Crazy !
Gun going back to Glock tomorrow.I don't understand what you are sending it back to Glock for. What type of sights are on the gun?

[TopShot]

Ameriglo Pro Night Sights.
I have a friend with a Glock sight pusher and I have a front sight tool.
If I break the front screw I have to order a new one.
Why should I play with it ?
Let them fix it and test fire it.
Gun is 10 days old with 150 rounds through it.
If they break something they'll fix it free.

[spinmove_]

Ameriglo Pro Night Sights.
I have a friend with a Glock sight pusher and I have a front sight tool.
If I break the front screw I have to order a new one.
Why should I play with it ?
Let them fix it and test fire it.
Gun is 10 days old with 150 rounds through it.
If they break something they'll fix it free.

Because they’re just iron sights on a gun. Pretty much no one zeros pistol sights from the factory because they have no idea what ammo you’re going to be shooting. You’d also have to REALLY wrench on that front sight HARD the WRONG way to snap that screw in half. It’s not that difficult and you won’t have to wait for shipping or Glock to actually make the adjustments.

If you’re that leery about it just about any local gun shop should be able to tweak those pretty quick for you.


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[HopetonBrown]

You adjust the sights for you and your ammo. Thats how this all works.

PS you should keep a spare front sight screw in your range bag anyway.

[TopShot]

"PS you should keep a spare front sight screw in your range bag anyway." - Good Idea!

I was Told by Dan at Glock technical support that they would
test fire my gun on a bench rest at 25 yard with 124 grain ammo.
That would get it zerod better than I could do.

[Daauto]

Captians1911 -- I also am shooting one of my pistols to the left
I have learned that having a flat faced and long pull on a DAO I start pulling flat on the whole trigger but by the time I get to the end of it's travel I'm pulling on the left side of the trigger and pulling the muzzle just a hair but is just enough
I just ordered a new trigger that moves my finger forward more . I hope for my fix , the distance between the trigger and the back strap
Bottom line-- large hands and mid size gun

[EricG]

Most Glocks I've shot, POI was left of POA. I thought it was me, so I bench rested...same thing. Did a Google search and some really experienced folks reported having to tap the rear sight over.

More than likely it's not you.

Sent from my VS810PP using Tapatalk

[Jim Watson]

I was Told by Dan at Glock technical support that they would
test fire my gun on a bench rest at 25 yard with 124 grain ammo.
That would get it zerod better than I could do.

Are you going to send in your hand and eye, too?

I am having to learn the Glock because a local range has started offering GSSF. My Glockbud provided fibre optic sights so I can see what I am doing. The rear is centered on the slide, the guns still shoots left. I made the measurements, did the trigonometry, and came up with a .017" sight change. I will double check when I have settled on a load and then drift to suit MY hold.

The gun is a G17-4 with interchangeable backstraps. The large does not feel just right in my hand, but it gives me a better trigger finger placement and less left to adjust for.

[HCM]

Are you going to send in your hand and eye, too?

I am having to learn the Glock because a local range has started offering GSSF. My Glockbud provided fibre optic sights so I can see what I am doing. The rear is centered on the slide, the guns still shoots left. I made the measurements, did the trigonometry, and came up with a .017" sight change. I will double check when I have settled on a load and then drift to suit MY hold.

The gun is a G17-4 with interchangeable backstraps. The large does not feel just right in my hand, but it gives me a better trigger finger placement and less left to adjust for.

Did you install the sights? Even if you didn’t install the sights, before you start sliding the rear sight around:

1) Make sure the front sight is straight. There is often some play in the front sight and if not addressed during installation it will “clock” slightly to the left when the front sight screw is tightened resulting in the gun legitimately shooting left. This is why most modern designs have dovetail front sights.

2) Shoot the gun left handed - if your groups suddenly shift from left /9 o’clock to right / 3 o’oclock it’s is you / Glock trigger not the gun.

If #2 it is usually the rounded face of the trigger (as viewed from the top) plus the tab safety causing the trigger finger to “tetter-totter” and only engage one side of the trigger. This in turn causes the trigger to be pulled back on a 10 or 11 o’clock to 4 or 5 o’clock axis for a right handed shooters and push shots left instead of pulling straight back from 12 to 6.

This is why flat faced triggers are a popular modification, however the stock Glock trigger can be shot straight by applying more or less trigger finger, depending on the individual. You are seeking trigger finger engagement with both sides of the trigger.

Another shooter induced cause of Glocks “shooting left” for right handlers (and vice versa) is biceping or knuckling where the base / knuckle part of the trigger finger pushes against the frame and literally pushes the shots left as you pull the trigger as Dave M mentioned.

[HCM]

Most Glocks I've shot, POI was left of POA. I thought it was me, so I bench rested...same thing. Did a Google search and some really experienced folks reported having to tap the rear sight over.

More than likely it's not you.

Sent from my VS810PP using Tapatalk

More than likely it IS you.

Benching the gun is not relevant to this.

Shoot the gun left handed. If the gun suddenly Shoots to the right when shot left handed it is you, and how you interface with the trigger, not the gun.

See post 30 above.

[Jim Watson]

Glockbud installed the sights with several retweaks to get the front on straight.

I do not bias other make pistols to the left, I am not going to make the Glock my main gun, so I will adjust the sight.
As Humpty Dumpty said, the question is, who is to be the master.

[HCM]

Glockbud installed the sights with several retweaks to get the front on straight.

I do not bias other make pistols to the left, I am not going to make the Glock my main gun, so I will adjust the sight.
As Humpty Dumpty said, the question is, who is to be the master.

I don’t bias other pistols makes to the left either. What I posted I learned the hard way through trial and error and via P-F member Surf who articulated what I was learning in my own.

In my case, I am required to use a stick Glock for work other than sights. If you have the option, and you don’t shoot other guns left, a flat face trigger shoe will also fix the issue.

[Jim Watson]

I got the Glock for GSSF Stock, so I must use Glock parts except sights.