Make Sure Not to Talk Any Arabic’: American Muslims and Their Guns

[HCM]

NYT - Make Sure Not to Talk Any Arabic’: American Muslims and Their Guns

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html


When Sheima Muhammad takes her Glock pistol to her local gun range in central Ohio, she gets funny looks. As a 25-year-old woman, she stands out from the other customers, who are mostly older men. Then there is the matter of her head scarf.

“I don’t get looked like as a normal person who’s just trying to protect themselves,” said Ms. Muhammad, who emigrated from Turkey as a baby with her family, who are Kurds, and is a naturalized American citizen.

American Muslims like Ms. Muhammad say they own guns for the same reasons as anyone else: for protection, for hunting and sport shooting, for gun and rifle collections or for their work.

They also cite another factor: fear of persecution, at a time when hate crimes against Muslims have soared to their highest levels since the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

But owning a gun is no assurance of security. Muslim gun owners are viewed with suspicion by gun stores, ranges and clubs, and occasionally met with harassment.

[RevolverRob]

Good for them.

The parallels between Muslim Americans today and African Americans in the 1950s and '60s are eerie.

My sister-in-law is a convert, married to my BIL a second generation Pakistani-American (born and raised Muslim) and their two kids are quite obviously "brown". My SIL has been harassed here in Chicago if she chooses to wear a hijab out of the house (the only way anyone would know, because otherwise she is wonderbread white, west Texas, girl), my BIL a cooperate attorney here in Chi has been harassed riding the L. My SIL is a devout pacifist who had her core shaken when someone followed her and the kids in their neighborhood last year harassing them. Neither she nor my BIL are ready to become gun owners, but that event convinced her to become more proactive about cellphone use in public and carrying OC. It also primed her for more serious conversations about putting both the kids in BJJ in the future. I want both of them to be capable of beating ass and taking names to avoid being victims in life.

Also all the kids (my SIL's and my sister's) are going to be gun owners. Because I'm building my own familia militia. Each kid is getting an Engraved Henry for their 10th birthday from Uncle Rob (will stay with Uncle Rob until they are 18). And of course each kid is getting a handgun at 21.

[Mjolnir]

Bigotry is a bastion of the untraveled and poorly educated... Always will be, too.


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[GardoneVT]

Bigotry is a bastion of the untraveled and poorly educated... Always will be, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True,but let’s cut the crap: bigotry is unfortunately concentrated in certain social areas. Like gun ranges .Folks like to talk a big game about “2nd Amendment for everyone”, as long as “everyone” is defined as white. The moment a person with a different ethnicity hits the range- or worse,outshoots the fat white guys - look out.

It’s maddening on a personal level experiencing this ,but it sucks on a meta level because it makes gun owners out to be total hypocrites. If the gun community is so keen on civil rights,why are there so many openly racist assholes in the business?

[OlongJohnson]

I don’t know what backwater shithole you live in, but every range I’ve been to, the people on the line reasonably represent the diverse ethnic demographics of the local area, and nobody cares what race anyone else is. I’ve never seen a place where the bigoted Left’s “old, scared, ignorant white guy who’s never left the place he grew up in” trope holds a drop of water.

[Duke]

The parallels between Muslim Americans today and African Americans in the 1950s and '60s are eerie.

.

I disagree. In fact I believe to say such a thing vastly degrades the actual civil right atrocities that took place against blacks at the time.

[Casual Friday]

True,but let’s cut the crap: bigotry is unfortunately concentrated in certain social areas. Like gun ranges .Folks like to talk a big game about “2nd Amendment for everyone”, as long as “everyone” is defined as white. The moment a person with a different ethnicity hits the range- or worse,outshoots the fat white guys - look out.

It’s maddening on a personal level experiencing this ,but it sucks on a meta level because it makes gun owners out to be total hypocrites. If the gun community is so keen on civil rights,why are there so many openly racist assholes in the business?

True,but let’s cut the crap: bigotry is unfortunately concentrated in certain social areas. Like rap concerts. Folks like to talk a big game about “hip hop is for everyone”, as long as “everyone” is defined as black. The moment a person with a different ethnicity hits the club- or worse, out raps the skinny black guys - look out.

It’s maddening on a personal level experiencing this ,but it sucks on a meta level because it makes rap fans out to be total hypocrites. If the hip hop community is so keen on civil rights,why are there so many openly racist assholes in the business?

[BehindBlueI's]

I was coordinating with a detective from a different department than I work for, a city with a decently sized contingent of Muslim immigrants who opened up c-stores in a sketchier area of town, on some of our professional robbery rings that had branched out to his city. He mentioned he'd recently popped a local on a robbery where the guy had driven out of his sketchier area to a different sketchier area to rob a c-store. The detective asked him why, and the answer was "the Muslims will shoot at you."

I found this funny for two reasons. One, apparently the reputation for shooting at robbers reduces your odds of repeat robbery attempts is so common sense yet so many corporate stores have policies against anything but compliance. Two, he said "shoot at you" and not "shoot you", which from what I saw on shared training facilities with Arabic soldiers was stunningly accurate.

[HeavyDuty]

True,but let’s cut the crap: bigotry is unfortunately concentrated in certain social areas. Like gun ranges .Folks like to talk a big game about “2nd Amendment for everyone”, as long as “everyone” is defined as white. The moment a person with a different ethnicity hits the range- or worse,outshoots the fat white guys - look out.

It’s maddening on a personal level experiencing this ,but it sucks on a meta level because it makes gun owners out to be total hypocrites. If the gun community is so keen on civil rights,why are there so many openly racist assholes in the business?


True,but let’s cut the crap: bigotry is unfortunately concentrated in certain social areas. Like rap concerts. Folks like to talk a big game about “hip hop is for everyone”, as long as “everyone” is defined as black. The moment a person with a different ethnicity hits the club- or worse, out raps the skinny black guys - look out.

It’s maddening on a personal level experiencing this ,but it sucks on a meta level because it makes rap fans out to be total hypocrites. If the hip hop community is so keen on civil rights,why are there so many openly racist assholes in the business?

In my experience, you’re both right. Some of the most intense racism I’ve ever personally witnessed has been at two of the local ranges; I’ve also seen first-hand issues at rap festivals where passing whites were being openly harassed on the streets. Neither side has a monopoly on assholes.

[Casual Friday]

In my experience, you’re both right. Some of the most intense racism I’ve ever personally witnessed has been at two of the local ranges; I’ve also seen first-hand issues at rap festivals where passing whites were being openly harassed on the streets. Neither side has a monopoly on assholes.

My wife and I went to an Ice Cube concert last year and experienced exactly that. I just didn't complain on the internet and pull victim status. I chalked it up to assholes being assholes and went on with my life.

[GardoneVT]

I don’t know what backwater shithole you live in, but every range I’ve been to, the people on the line reasonably represent the diverse ethnic demographics of the local area, and nobody cares what race anyone else is. I’ve never seen a place where the bigoted Left’s “old, scared, ignorant white guy who’s never left the place he grew up in” trope holds a drop of water.

Good for you.


My wife and I went to an Ice Cube concert last year and experienced exactly that. I just didn't complain on the internet and pull victim status. I chalked it up to assholes being assholes and went on with my life.

Crucial difference; going to a rap concert isn’t a Constitutionally protected civil right. My goal here was to encourage self policing of racist behavior - as we need everyone supporting gun rights,not just Charger driving white dudes. Ive been discriminated against in ways not dissimilar from what the article describes. By every establishment? Hell no. Most were great people. But all it takes is one turd to spoil the punch bowl, and we cannot afford the political and ethical problems of a racist reputation being connected to gun ownership.

At this point I’m bowing out of this thread,since calling out the minority of racist behavior when it happens is triggering the Waambulance Response Team.

[David S.]

I chalked it up to assholes being assholes and went on with my life.

Well, that’s just your white privilege.

/snark.

[BehindBlueI's]

At this point I’m bowing out of this thread,since calling out the minority of racist behavior when it happens is triggering the Waambulance Response Team.

That sort of "exit jab" makes it harder to take you or your point seriously.

[blues]

Bigotry is a bastion of the untraveled and poorly educated... Always will be, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Poorly parented as well. Though to be honest, there's plenty of bigotry in the Ivy League. (Assuming you confuse that for higher education.)

[Sensei]

While I’m tolerant of every race, I’m intolerant of many belief systems. I’d now like to extend a special thank you to those who choose to wear particular belief systems on their sleeves, heads, and Prius bumpers - you will continue to see very little of me next to you on the range...or anywhere else for that matter.

[blues]

While I’m tolerant of every race, I’m intolerant of many belief systems. I’d now like to extend a special thank you to those who choose to wear particular belief systems on their sleeves, heads, and Prius bumpers - you will continue to see very little of me next to you on the range...or anywhere else for that matter.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe that was their intended goal? ;)

[LOKNLOD]

Poorly parented as well. Though to be honest, there's plenty of bigotry in the Ivy League. (Assuming you confuse that for higher education.)

People are naturally shitty by nature, unless formed into something better with help of external forces.

Teaching your kids to be crapheads will certainly get them there more easily (and with a more standardized vocabulary), but it seems that most people these days have started assuming that just not teaching them to be bad people is the same as teaching them to be good people.

[HCM]

Good for you.



Crucial difference; going to a rap concert isn’t a Constitutionally protected civil right. My goal here was to encourage self policing of racist behavior - as we need everyone supporting gun rights,not just Charger driving white dudes. Ive been discriminated against in ways not dissimilar from what the article describes. By every establishment? Hell no. Most were great people. But all it takes is one turd to spoil the punch bowl, and we cannot afford the political and ethical problems of a racist reputation being connected to gun ownership.

At this point I’m bowing out of this thread,since calling out the minority of racist behavior when it happens is triggering the Waambulance Response Team.

A rap concert is a constitutionally protected event - freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

Every group has assholes - whites, blacks, cops, military, gay, straight, Christians, Jews, Muslims - any group you can delineate is a bell curve with assholes in the bottom 10%.

At this point I am firmly in the Dogs > People camp.

Given the subject of the thread, a more significant difference is that people have no choice in their race but being or continuing to be a member of a religion or a political group is s choice.

[blues]

War had it right...



http://img.wennermedia.com/social/rs-war-the-world-is-a-ghetto-dcf915aa-8daa-444b-b0b3-75aae7639cfa.jpg

[Casual Friday]

Good for you.



Crucial difference; going to a rap concert isn’t a Constitutionally protected civil right. My goal here was to encourage self policing of racist behavior - as we need everyone supporting gun rights,not just Charger driving white dudes. Ive been discriminated against in ways not dissimilar from what the article describes. By every establishment? Hell no. Most were great people. But all it takes is one turd to spoil the punch bowl, and we cannot afford the political and ethical problems of a racist reputation being connected to gun ownership.

At this point I’m bowing out of this thread,since calling out the minority of racist behavior when it happens is triggering the Waambulance Response Team.

Actually, it is a constitutionally protected right, you just chose to ignore that because it doesn't fit your agenda. You've stereotyped the "typical gun owner" every chance you've had for the entire 5 years you've been on this forum, this thread is no different. You've taken every opportunity to point out what you perceive typical gun owners to be, and it's almost always overweight white people who don't train and can't shoot. That's your little wet dream of the typical gun owner because it makes you feel superior when you say it. Nobody else on this forum does that shit. It's funny you refer to those who disagree with you as the Waambulance Response Team, you'd probably have a fucking stroke if somebody were to continually stereotype black people on this forum the way you do white gun owners. Your pseudo rage quit of this thread because people have disagreed with you shows you're not capable of having a reasonable discussion on the subject.

[blues]

I'm going to open this up. Hopefully we can continue to discuss this topic without it turning ugly. Hope springs eternal.

You're just a big softy. (And the mods here are (the) shit.)

[Cypher]

You would think more gun owners would equal more people who aren't going to vote for politicians who want to restrict our rights. That's a good thing.

Islam is an ideology. You can't look at someone and know their ideology or their beliefs. I'm not worried about the Muslim who is open about their beliefs. That indicates a lack of ulterior motive to me. I'm worried about the one who hides it until they commit a terrorist act.

All that said it can not be overlooked that the Koran does call believing Muslims to spread Islam by force if necessary. It also can not be overlooked that European countries who have taken in large numbers of Islamic refugees have had problems because of it. American cities who have a substantial refugee population have had problems because of it. I'm sorry if that sounds racist but it's true

[blues]

You can't look at someone and know their ideology or their beliefs. I'm not worried about the Muslim who is open about their beliefs. That indicates a lack of ulterior motive to me. I'm worried about the one who hides it until they commit a terrorist act.

No one is required to to disclose or share their beliefs. Not Muslims. Not me. Not you. Not Timothy McVeigh. Not Eric Rudolph.

Remember when everyone was afraid of the Irish in the UK because of the Provisional IRA?

This is nothing new. Most every group that is perceived as a threat to the status quo, rightly or wrongly, has suffered similarly. I don't foresee any major change on the horizon.

[David S.]

I would personally "boycott" a gun range that openly declared itself an [fill-in-the-blank]--free zone.

[NH Shooter]

I finally read the linked article. It's well done. I encourage everyone to click through and read it.

It is indeed, and I agree.

[Stephanie B]

All that said it can not be overlooked that the Koran does call believing Muslims to spread Islam by force if necessary. It also can not be overlooked that European countries who have taken in large numbers of Islamic refugees have had problems because of it. American cities who have a substantial refugee population have had problems because of it. I'm sorry if that sounds racist but it's true

Right. It wasn’t the Muslims that stuffed a third of my family tree into gas chambers.

Of the ones who came over here and stayed, when I was very young, one of my great aunts (the Off the Boat generation) told me that, when it was time for me to marry: “Better you bring home a schvartzer than a Catholic.” In the movie “Annie Hall“, Woody Allen made a joke that his great grandmother didn’t do charitable works, because she spent all her time avoiding being raped by cossacks. That was not much of a joke, more a comment of the vast differences between his family tree and Annie Hall’s family tree.

Relations between Muslims and Jews are not terribly good right now. But Muslims don’t, in general, have the long history of rape, murder, and expulsion of Jews that Christians do.

And I’m sorry if you don’t like that, but it’s the truth.

[blues]

^^^^Harsh and not particularly pleasant to hear or read, but pretty much on the mark.

[Cypher]

Right. It wasn’t the Muslims that stuffed a third of my family tree into gas chambers.

Of the ones who came over here and stayed, when I was very young, one of my great aunts (the Off the Boat generation) told me that, when it was time for me to marry: “Better you bring home a schvartzer than a Catholic.” In the movie “Annie Hall“, Woody Allen made a joke that his great grandmother didn’t do charitable works, because she spent all her time avoiding being raped by cossacks. That was not much of a joke, more a comment of the vast differences between his family tree and Annie Hall’s family tree.

Relations between Muslims and Jews are not terribly good right now. But Muslims don’t, in general, have the long history of rape, murder, and expulsion of Jews that Christians do.

And I’m sorry if you don’t like that, but it’s the truth.

So how, exactly, do I respond to that and not pull this thread completely off the rails? How did I become accountable for the crimes of every person who claimed Christianity since the first century? I presume you're willing to accept blame for the Jews of the Sondercommando who are really the people who pushed other Jews into the showers?

[BehindBlueI's]

All that said it can not be overlooked that the Koran does call believing Muslims to spread Islam by force if necessary.

Where does it call for that? I think you'll find that, in context, the violence authorized in the Quran is for specific times and specific places. The passages, stripped of historical context and often intentionally mis-characterized, that do call for violence are not solely for the purpose of expanding Islam and are not global calls to spread Islam by force of arms. One of the favorites tossed out by those who, intentionally or not, misrepresent Islam isn't even instructions to men, but instructions God gave to angels for a specific battle.

Islam is a pragmatic religion and recognizes that humans live in an imperfect world. Killing is sometimes necessary, both for self-preservation and to fulfill the duty of the strong to protect the weak. That's not the same thing as using violence to spread your faith, though.

[blues]

So how, exactly, do I respond to that and not pull this thread completely off the rails? How did I become accountable for the crimes of every person who claimed Christianity since the first century?

I think that pretty much answers the earlier comment regarding de-cloaking and those who do not reveal their motives or beliefs.

That's probably pretty close to what most Muslims feel about being held accountable for the actions of others.

[BehindBlueI's]

It also can not be overlooked that European countries who have taken in large numbers of Islamic refugees have had problems because of it. American cities who have a substantial refugee population have had problems because of it. I'm sorry if that sounds racist but it's true


How did I become accountable for the crimes of every person who claimed Christianity since the first century?

A mystery, indeed.

[NH Shooter]

Right. It wasn’t the Muslims that stuffed a third of my family tree into gas chambers.



My maternal grand parents immigrated from Germany in the late 1920s. Went through Ellis Island, became U.S. citizens.

My oldest aunt was born in Germany, but my mom, her sister and brother were born in the U.S. My uncle told me stories that during WW II he was called a Nazi and regularly beaten up over the accusation.

Just because someone is a German doesn't mean they are a Nazi. Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they're a terrorist.

Stereo-typing is ugly no matter how it is applied.

[Jackdog]

Right. It wasn’t the Muslims that stuffed a third of my family tree into gas chambers.

Of the ones who came over here and stayed, when I was very young, one of my great aunts (the Off the Boat generation) told me that, when it was time for me to marry: “Better you bring home a schvartzer than a Catholic.” In the movie “Annie Hall“, Woody Allen made a joke that his great grandmother didn’t do charitable works, because she spent all her time avoiding being raped by cossacks. That was not much of a joke, more a comment of the vast differences between his family tree and Annie Hall’s family tree.

Relations between Muslims and Jews are not terribly good right now. But Muslims don’t, in general, have the long history of rape, murder, and expulsion of Jews that Christians do.

And I’m sorry if you don’t like that, but it’s the truth.

Not entirely true. At least in Bosnia and Kosovo a Muslim SS Division assisted
With the Pogrom against the Jewish people.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

[blues]

Not entirely true. At least in Bosnia and Kosovo a Muslim SS Division assisted
With the Pogrom against the Jewish people.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

Every day is a brand new opportunity to learn something terrible.

(I had no idea, personally.)

[BehindBlueI's]

Not entirely true. At least in Bosnia and Kosovo a Muslim SS Division assisted
With the Pogrom against the Jewish people.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

The run up to Nazi Germany made a lot of strange bedfellows. I can't recall which book it was now that talked about the various factions, along with Standard Oil, in Northern Africa and the Mid East leading up to the World Wars, but it was like Game of Thrones plots. Allies today, mortal enemies tomorrow, vice versa, pitting enemies against one another. And the role drought resistant wheat crops had in the founding of Israel. The Germans pushed for a militant view of Jihad among Gulf Arabs to rile them up against the Brits, who held Egypt. And, of course, the Muslim world wasn't one big happy neighborhood all rowing the same way, and the collapse of the Ottoman empire let a lot of those cracks grow so that various former Ottoman states reached out to outside allies to bolster themselves against their neighbors.

Even in the Crusades, a border war fought predominately along religious lines, there were allies of the "wrong" religion on both sides.

[Joe in PNG]

One universal thing about all humans everywhere is that they will use something good (like religion) as an excuse to do things that are really evil.
Name a religion or belief, and you can usually find a group of people doing nasty things ostentatiously in the service of that belief.

[blues]

All the more reason why I eschew organized religion and overzealous nationalism.

[Joe in PNG]

The run up to Nazi Germany made a lot of strange bedfellows. I can't recall which book it was now that talked about the various factions, along with Standard Oil, in Northern Africa and the Mid East leading up to the World Wars, but it was like Game of Thrones plots. Allies today, mortal enemies tomorrow, vice versa, pitting enemies against one another. And the role drought resistant wheat crops had in the founding of Israel. The Germans pushed for a militant view of Jihad among Gulf Arabs to rile them up against the Brits, who held Egypt. And, of course, the Muslim world wasn't one big happy neighborhood all rowing the same way, and the collapse of the Ottoman empire let a lot of those cracks grow so that various former Ottoman states reached out to outside allies to bolster themselves against their neighbors.

Even in the Crusades, a border war fought predominately along religious lines, there were allies of the "wrong" religion on both sides.

Don't forget Poland helped Nazi Germany with the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia

[BehindBlueI's]

One universal thing about all humans everywhere is that they will use something good (like religion) as an excuse to do things that are really evil.
Name a religion or belief, and you can usually find a group of people doing nasty things ostentatiously in the service of that belief.

Absolutely. *Any* belief system. Religions, races, economic systems, etc. It's a primary means of "othering" the people you want to take resources from. Wars are fought for resources or self-preservation, though often couched in ideological terms.

[David S.]

History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes. - Mark Twain (maybe?)

[Trooper224]

The irrational belief in a bronze age sky faerie (or faeries if plural is your thing) has been used by every single culture throughout history to perpetrate some pretty f'd up stuff against ones fellow man. No one has the corner on that market. Political ideologies are seldom any better.

[blues]

History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes. - Mark Twain (maybe?)

Must be true...I remember kids calling out "hotsy, totsy a newborn nazi" back when I was a kid.

[Casual Friday]

I'm going to open this up. Hopefully we can continue to discuss this topic without it turning ugly. Hope springs eternal.

Since the like button is no longer available on your posts, I'm just gonna start hitting the report button. #modsareshit (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=modsareshit) #reported (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=reported)

[Stephanie B]

Not entirely true. At least in Bosnia and Kosovo a Muslim SS Division assisted
With the Pogrom against the Jewish people.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

I used the qualifier “in general” for a reason.

[David S.]

nevermind

[1slow]

Communism / Socialism is a religion. The state is their god !

[Jackdog]

I used the qualifier “in general” for a reason.

I was referring to the sentence about the gas chamber not the long history part.

I’m in no way exonerating the Catholic Church for turning its back on the Jewish people during the holocaust. Or the way Christians or anyone else have treated Jews throughout history.

Just providing info that people may not be aware of.

[blues]

Communism / Socialism is a religion. The state is their god !

Only not everyone is a willing adherent.

What were the choices? Support the party or die a slow miserable death in the gulag? (I'm exaggerating but I'm sure you take my meaning.)

Anyway, hence my choice to eschew both systems. I prefer to choose for myself without all the guilt, threats of hell, or imprisonment. Everyone's mileage obviously varies quite a bit.

[Stephanie B]

So how, exactly, do I respond to that and not pull this thread completely off the rails? How did I become accountable for the crimes of every person who claimed Christianity since the first century? I presume you're willing to accept blame for the Jews of the Sondercommando who are really the people who pushed other Jews into the showers?

I'd be grateful if you could explain the other career paths that were open to Sondercommandos. That, by the way, only bought them a few months, for the Germans would routinely kill them all and recruit new ones. In Birkenau, one of the groups of Sondercommandos revolted and killed some of the guards.

Blaming the Sondercommandos for the horrors of the death camps sounds to me like a cheap alt-right rhetorical trick. I hope that was not your intent.

[1slow]

Only not everyone is a willing adherent.

What were the choices? Support the party or die a slow miserable death in the gulag? (I'm exaggerating but I'm sure you take my meaning.)

Anyway, hence my choice to eschew both systems. I prefer to choose for myself without all the guilt, threats of hell, or imprisonment. Everyone's mileage obviously varies quite a bit.

Agreed.

[FNFAN]

Blaming the Sondercommandos for the horrors of the death camps sounds to me like a cheap alt-right rhetorical trick. I hope that was not your intent.

https://i1.wp.com/gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Eating-Popcorn-Soda.gif

[Cypher]

So I'm not sure how I ended up back here again because I put this thread on ignore and I fully intend to put it on ignore again after I make this post.

I'm putting this thread back on gnore there's no point in quoting me there's no point in responding to me because I'm never going to see it.

Enjoy your thread

[45dotACP]

Haven't been able to read this whole show...but in relevance, a Sikh coworkers father (not even Muslim) had the ever living shit stomped out of him and wound up in the ICU as a result of an obvious hate crime. Like the dudes who stomped him called him a sand nigger, among other less choice words.

I'd probably buy a gun too...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[HCM]

You would think more gun owners would equal more people who aren't going to vote for politicians who want to restrict our rights. That's a good thing.

Islam is an ideology. You can't look at someone and know their ideology or their beliefs. I'm not worried about the Muslim who is open about their beliefs. That indicates a lack of ulterior motive to me. I'm worried about the one who hides it until they commit a terrorist act.

All that said it can not be overlooked that the Koran does call believing Muslims to spread Islam by force if necessary. It also can not be overlooked that European countries who have taken in large numbers of Islamic refugees have had problems because of it. American cities who have a substantial refugee population have had problems because of it. I'm sorry if that sounds racist but it's true

Islam is certainly not alone in calling for its spread by force if necessary but there are some aspects I personally find concerning. They generally center around Islam being both a religion and a system of government.

My other concern is Islam’s negative stance on dogs.

[HCM]

Haven't been able to read this whole show...but in relevance, a Sikh coworkers father (not even Muslim) had the ever living shit stomped out of him and wound up in the ICU as a result of an obvious hate crime. Like the dudes who stomped him called him a sand nigger, among other less choice words.

I'd probably buy a gun too...

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Rather ironic as Sikhism’s martial culture derives from centuries successfully fighting Muslim conquest.

[RevolverRob]

So how, exactly, do I respond to that and not pull this thread completely off the rails? How did I become accountable for the crimes of every person who claimed Christianity since the first century? I presume you're willing to accept blame for the Jews of the Sondercommando who are really the people who pushed other Jews into the showers?

I'd suggest a bit more reading on the subject - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

___

I'm not sure if some folks have ever seen the fallout of organized, systematic, destruction of peoples (regardless of race, creed, religion, etc). It is the stuff of nightmares. I went to Dachau during one of my trips to Germany a few years ago. As a scholar and lover of the study of history (pre and written), I felt I had a duty to see a portion of what had occurred. It had been ~70 years since the war ended when I was there.

I will never forget the chill that ran through my spine in seeing it. I will never forget the magnitude of what I saw (and the realization of the magnitude of what I did not see) and the feeling of helplessness for the realities that humanity has suffered.

It's why I, personally, strive to keep an open mind. I fail at it like anyone from time to time, but the first time any of you guys find me at a political rallying with a sign that says, "XXXX is EVIL and Should Die" - put a bullet in my head, because I've been brainwashed.

I eschew organized religions and amoral political organizations - it's one reason why I find the politicization of certain issues especially frustrating (e.g., the politicization of gun ownership by the NRA). And the reality that so many folks are just perfectly willing to call any one thing a "Right or Left" issue infinitely frustrating.

[BJJ]

I normally enjoy the level of discourse on P-F. This thread went downhill quickly.

[Sensei]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe that was their intended goal? ;)

I call it mutually assured avoidance. It allows me to sit back and drink a whiskey while others debate whether or not Muslims have a jihad problem, the Catholic Patriarchy has a pedophile problem, or if Protestants were responsible for the Holocost.

[critter]

The irrational belief in a bronze age sky faerie (or faeries if plural is your thing) has been used by every single culture throughout history to perpetrate some pretty f'd up stuff against ones fellow man. No one has the corner on that market. Political ideologies are seldom any better.

Hear Here! As a non sky faerieist living in the Bible Belt, I often get "Atheism is responsible for communism which killed all those gorillions" -- so I shoot the idiots just so they'll briefly feel vindicated. Interestingly enough, I have like 99.9% in common with any other constitutional conservative.

[beenalongtime]

Laughing that this thread was reopened. A talk started somewhat on this subject at my LGS today. Almost as quickly as it was started, it ended, when I asked about the basis of the belief of a Muslim with a gun, rather then what I expected to be a more common fear of seeing them buying large amounts of fertilizer or diesel fuel?
As to other prejudices, I have been fortunate to be able to have some interesting conversations about subjects that were not allowed, just because they were kept civil. Race, in high school (as a white person, talking to blacks), different aspects of WWII, with a neighbor born in Germany, during it, as well as a Japanese friend, and some others. If one needs to, go cool off, then come back. There is plenty to learn all the way around IMHO.