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Clusterfrack
06-04-2018, 10:20 PM
This issue is already lighting up social media and other forums. GuanoLoco has posted some IMO very mature and to-the-point responses. I would like begin a discussion here because I find it concerning that USPSA President Mike Foley threatened to ban two USPSA competitors because of their social media posts, which were critical of him.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/us-practical-shooting-assn-uspsa/statement-from-uspsa-president/2074927672557396/

I recall a few years ago that a similar situation happened in IDPA, and I thought USPSA would never fail in this way. I was wrong.

GuanoLoco
06-04-2018, 11:00 PM
This issue is already lighting up social media and other forums. GuanoLoco has posted some IMO very mature and to-the-point responses. I would like begin a discussion here because I find it concerning that USPSA President Mike Foley threatened to ban two USPSA competitors because of their social media posts, which were critical of him.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/us-practical-shooting-assn-uspsa/statement-from-uspsa-president/2074927672557396/

I recall a few years ago that a similar situation happened in IDPA, and I thought USPSA would never fail in this way. I was wrong.

Mature and to-the-point responses?

Your Honor, I Object! -GL

45dotACP
06-04-2018, 11:15 PM
I have been way out of the Doodie loop even when I posted, but is there perchance a TL;DR?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

MEH
06-05-2018, 07:57 AM
TLDR:

Ben Berry (USPSA Production Grand Master) posts on social media.
Mike Foley (USPSA Pres.) loses his cool.
Ben Stoeger post screen shots of Mike Foley losing his cool on doodie.
Mike threatens to banned both Ben's from USPSA.
Time calms things down. Apologies occur.
Maybe over.

Peally
06-05-2018, 08:21 AM
The entire debacle was an embarrassment for USPSA.

Zincwarrior
06-05-2018, 08:43 AM
TLDR:

Ben Berry (USPSA Production Grand Master) posts on social media.
Mike Foley (USPSA Pres.) loses his cool.
Ben Stoeger post screen shots of Mike Foley losing his cool on doodie.
Mike threatens to banned both Ben's from USPSA.
Time calms things down. Apologies occur.
Maybe over.

More than that. He didn't just threaten. He said Stoeger was banned. Foley also called one of the Bens (can't tell which) a "fa•." Not appropriate for a President.

rob_s
06-05-2018, 09:19 AM
I'm completely out of the loop these days, but my impression was that Stoeger helped get Foley elected, no? At least that was my impression when I was still listening to Ben's podcast...

Clusterfrack
06-05-2018, 09:25 AM
26803

26801

26802


26800

Spartan1980
06-05-2018, 10:28 AM
Can I have my vote for Foley back? It was a coin toss between him and Suber with MB following really close. I'd like to re-toss that coin.

LittleLebowski
06-05-2018, 10:31 AM
This is all over with, Foley posted an official apology, I believe. Free free to discuss Doodie and Stoeger here, we don't care.

Clusterfrack
06-05-2018, 10:43 AM
Foley's apology doesn't cut it for me. I could care less whether he used slurs or bad language. He behaved like a petty dictator who used his position to threaten critics. It's an obvious abuse of his position, and shows that he is unfit to serve.

The only satisfying outcome of this would be for Foley to step down as USPSA President.

Remember when an IDPA club banned a guy for criticizing leadership? And banned anyone who didn't agree with the ban? That's the way cult leaders behave. I hope USPSA can return to the high ground.

cheby
06-05-2018, 12:11 PM
Wrong forum to discuss USPSA. The bear defense, on the other hand....

Clusterfrack
06-05-2018, 12:16 PM
Wrong forum to discuss USPSA. The bear defense, on the other hand....

Maybe... but P-F is the only forum I'm active on anymore, so I have to try.

JFK
06-05-2018, 12:23 PM
My problem with the Foley is the clearly aggressive and hateful speech calling members names.

Anything gun related is always under a microscope, and with USPSA being one of the most visible outside of shooting circles it put all shooters USPSA or not in bad light. Everyone knows that the court of public opinion is quick to paint with a broad brush and his remarks, especially around calling members "bitches" and "fags" does nothing but isolate and de-ligitimize the shooting sports in general.

He needs to go quickly.

JFK
06-05-2018, 12:25 PM
Wrong forum to discuss USPSA. The bear defense, on the other hand....


I think discussing USPSA in the Competition Skills & Discussion sub forum in IPSC/USPSA is an appropriate place.

RJ
06-05-2018, 03:46 PM
I was pretty surprised at the rancor on display.

I mean, I understand that there is a certain coarseness that goes with Shootiní at the range. Seems like when Shooters (mostly men, obviously) let off steam in a shared environment some things get said that arenít meant for polite company.

That being said, I have two problems with this situation.

One is when the National President of an organization Iím a member of publicly displays a stunning lack of decorum on social media. This is in addition to a complete tone-deaf unawareness of respect for diversity. Iím not Gay, but seriously you just donít use the terms he used and not expect consequences.

The second and possibly more important to Mr. Foleyís future as President is a breathtaking abuse of power and intimidation of the organizationís members. It just boggles my mind that someone who leads a National Shooting organization thinks his behavior is appropriate.

To the extent I can vote this individual out of office in any future opportunity, I will certainly do so.

GJM
06-05-2018, 04:01 PM
You mean it isn’t appropriate for the President of USPSA, whether sleep deprived or not, to engage in an internet purse fight and then threaten to ban some on the other side of that purse fight, including a national champion (even if that champion is from a insignificant, low cap division)?

JHC
06-05-2018, 04:13 PM
Wrong forum to discuss USPSA. The bear defense, on the other hand....

BEARS! They should be mentioned in every thread!

GJM
06-05-2018, 04:15 PM
You mean it isn’t appropriate for the President of USPSA, whether sleep deprived or not, to engage in an internet purse fight and then threaten to ban some on the other side of that purse fight, including a national champion (even if that champion is from a insignificant, low cap division)?

And by “ban,” I mean unilaterally, without board of directors deliberation, from USPSA and IPSC competition.

45dotACP
06-05-2018, 04:19 PM
Definitely not a good judgement call on Mr. Foley's part. Especially towards an individual who supported his election. For all his flaws and unpopularity with the BOD, Ben has a solid view of what the sport of USPSA ought to be.

I'm guessing Stoeger won't be endorsing him next election.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

fatdog
06-05-2018, 04:22 PM
I keep remembering that clip from the Hitler in the bunker movie where he is ranting and people like to create their own subtitles for the narrative of something he is saying...sort of the animated meme, I predict Foley gets one of those soon...

At least Bill Wilson was the actual private owner of the shooting organization when he went off like a dictator a few times. Foley has no such status, I am wondering if bylaws allow the board to remove him if he does not resign. I plan a carefully worded letter to my Area 6 rep tonight requesting they pressure him to leave.

Bucky
06-05-2018, 04:33 PM
Does the President have the power to ban someone without board approval?

Casual Friday
06-05-2018, 04:48 PM
Shit like this is why I hate most "gun" people.

SecondsCount
06-05-2018, 05:46 PM
I came in here because I thought maybe Stoeger didn't stand for the pledge of allegiance or something ;)

All of it is really sad. As someone who is trying to keep the troops in line, Foley is in a tough position, but social media is not the place to air grievances or use inflammatory language. His third mistake was to threaten or carry out a ban/DQ. That is a little over the top in my opinion.

Jared
06-05-2018, 05:50 PM
While I don't like what was put on display here, I honestly cannot say that I'm all that surprised.

The original social media post by Mr. Berry probably could have been worded a bit better (the one that Foley took exception to). Foley definitely should have handled every single bit of his part of this better than he did. You simply cannot post things like that nor act like that when you are the president of an organization like this. As for Stoeger, I'm not going to even pretend to know all of the stuff that may be lurking in the background there. I met him once at a level 2 some years ago. Kinda said hello and all that, brief exchange. Seemed like an alright guy to me. I can also imagine that some of the stuff he's put online over the years has probably worn a bit thin in some circles.

In the end, it seems that no one was banned from competition. Good. As for Foley, I'm on the fence. If this was a one off temper tantrum, then I go to my philosophy that we all deserve forgiveness for one good fuck up as long as we learn from it. If, on the other hand, this is part of a larger pattern that is only now becoming public, then I think he needs to go. Either way, I doubt he gets re-elected once his term is up, assuming he finishes the term.

GJM
06-05-2018, 05:58 PM
Foley has done a bunch of good stuff at USPSA — cleaned house at HQ, upgraded the website, made classifications update weekly, started working on updating hit factors, introduced PCC (gasp), brought 140mm mags to CO, and probably a lot more good stuff I have forgotten. However, the emotional online banning threat is to me like having a dog that bites the neighbor’s kid.

wtturn
06-05-2018, 06:39 PM
This is all over with, Foley posted an official apology, I believe. Free free to discuss Doodie and Stoeger here, we don't care.Not by a long shot.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

Cory
06-05-2018, 07:15 PM
I read the thread on doodie. I think alot of good stuff was brought up there, albeit without much decorum.

I think nwhpfan was one of many members who asked on the facebook post for Foley's statement to have USPSA present the issues for members to evaluate. Folks reasonably asked for more information from the organization and were ignored, or had comments deleted.

I look forward to becoming a USPSA member, I'm not one yet. But if USPSA ever hopes to grow beyond a niche it needs to change.

Holding the organizations leadership publicly accountable for their actions related to the organization is not out of line. You may not like the person who informs the members whats happening but that doesnt make them wrong. Threatening suspensions, bans, and other penalties against members for disageeing with leadership or for making a joke you dont like on social media is a sure way to not gain members.

The language Foley used doesnt personally bother me. I've used all that and more. But it isnt how a large organizations president should act. Like it or not, the standard of conduct is different for them.

Should Foley lose his job? Not my call. I'm in no position to advocate eitherway. I think his term wont result in reelection. I understand those calling for resignation and those saying its a shame to loose a full time leader who has accomplished alot.

The whole thing makes USPSA look petty.

-Cory

Jared
06-05-2018, 07:28 PM
The whole thing makes USPSA look petty.

-Cory

I couldn't agree more with this

RevolverRob
06-05-2018, 07:33 PM
Mature and to-the-point responses?

Your Honor, I Object! -GL

On Bookface and here? Yes. Other places, we know you are just being your general self...:cool:

____

So, I followed with great interest as I watched this break on Stoegerís IG and then over on Doodie (where I am not a member just an observer).

I donít have much of a horse in this fight. Having shot 0 USPSA matches in the last decade. But Iím in process of gearing back up and prepping to start club level matches this fall, for the first time in about 10-years.

None-the-less, what I saw over the weekend was insane. Iíve served as a board member and officer for multiple professional societies now. While planning a science conference isnít quite like planning a shooting match, there is a lot of politics and management involved in both. In all cases, it is your responsibility as the representative of your Org to maintain your decorum at all times. You can -never- get mad in public, ever. You must, absolutely remain professional at all times. If you have an issue with someone - you solve it behind closed doors, in private, between as few parties as possible. Professionalism dictates apologizing, even when you are right. It means placing the Org ahead of your ego, always, without fail, everytime.

Mike Foley failed the professionalism test. He failed it first on social media, again on Doodie, and for a third time in a poorly worded and disingenious apology. Thatís three strikes and as an outsider looking in - Iíd say folks need to demand him out.

You can do all of the good in the world - and still fuck up beyond all repair. If Foley wants to maintain status within USPSA - I suggest he make a heartfelt public apology, and not run for re-election when his term is up. If he wants to look like a pedantic child - he can continue acting like he is.

As for Stoeger -

Stoeger is a shit stirring smarmy d-bag that lots of folks donít like - but heís one man - beating many men with experience and skill right now. Like a clever prosecutor getting a defendant to incriminate themselves on the stand - Stoeger is merely walking from USPSA strawpile to strawpile setting them on fire. And showing the world what happens. It strikes me that the ďold boysĒ who talk garbage while squadded up havenít figured out how to ďsolveĒ guys like Stoeger or Berry yet. Because they donít realize the solution is to make them board members and make them professional reps of the Org - eliminating their ability to talk shit about ďthe manĒ because they are ďthe manĒ.

óó-

Anyways what this all taught me is - USPSA might as well stand for ďUnited States Practical Shooting AmateursĒ for the way they have acted in this scenario. Makes me seriously reconsider IDPA. Or starting my own shooting club (with blackjack and hookers).

GuanoLoco
06-05-2018, 07:57 PM
Rob, I think you mis-understand Stoeger and how he has changed and even matured over the years.

He isnít everyoneís cup of tea, to be sure, but I honestly believe that he wants the best for USPSA and IPSC.

I donít at all see him as the type that just wants to see the world burn.

What you are claiming is an internet-perpetuated caricature.

RevolverRob
06-05-2018, 08:29 PM
Rob, I think you mis-understand Stoeger and how he has changed and even matured over the years.

He isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, to be sure, but I honestly believe that he wants the best for USPSA and IPSC.

I don’t at all see him as the type that just wants to see the world burn.

What you are claiming is an internet-perpetuated caricature.

Oh dude, I think you might have my opinion of the matter wrong.

I have zero, -zero-, doubt that Ben Stoeger cares genuinely and deeply about USPSA and IPSC from the perspective of what the sport represents and wanting to perpetuate its future, including maintaining the organization and growing and making it stronger. Absolutely, zero doubt.

Stoeger is still a sarcastic, shit stirring, occasionally smarmy, d-bag, asshole - I know that - because what Stoeger is to Action Pistol - is what I am to my little sub-field of academia. And I'm a sarcastic, shit stirring, occasionally smarmy, d-bag, asshole - who steps on toes from time to time to get shit done and make progress while wanting to perpetuate the organization by growing it and making it stronger. I respect Ben for doing what he thinks is right and trying to do it well. I respect his cavalier attitude and approach, it's working. You know it works when people hold grudges and are scared of you. He's a skilled man with a gun and his mouth - which is the best of all the "skilled mouth + XYZ" combos. But all respect where it is due, Ben is still an asshole, I'm cool with that and I think he is too.

People of action are usually assholes, well-intentioned and well meaning assholes, but assholes none-the-less. Foley appears to be a man of action and an asshole, but unfortunately, it isn't clear he is well meaning. And he lost his cool, acted like a petty tyrant, and issued a faux apology for it. That's a lack of professionalism that cannot be tolerated, it's a sign of ego that means the organization will suffer because of it. Put Ben Stoeger on the BOD of USPSA and I bet Ben will be the first to crack a self-deprecating joke at his own expense, to foster camaraderie and grow the org, he may be an asshole, but it's clear he can set his ego aside when it's necessary, the same cannot be said, demonstrably, about Foley.

GuanoLoco
06-05-2018, 08:34 PM
Fair enough.

I am struggling to see Ben thriving in an area director role, but who knows.

45dotACP
06-05-2018, 08:36 PM
On Bookface and here? Yes. Other places, we know you are just being your general self...:cool:

____

So, I followed with great interest as I watched this break on Stoeger’s IG and then over on Doodie (where I am not a member just an observer).

I don’t have much of a horse in this fight. Having shot 0 USPSA matches in the last decade. But I’m in process of gearing back up and prepping to start club level matches this fall, for the first time in about 10-years.

None-the-less, what I saw over the weekend was insane. I’ve served as a board member and officer for multiple professional societies now. While planning a science conference isn’t quite like planning a shooting match, there is a lot of politics and management involved in both. In all cases, it is your responsibility as the representative of your Org to maintain your decorum at all times. You can -never- get mad in public, ever. You must, absolutely remain professional at all times. If you have an issue with someone - you solve it behind closed doors, in private, between as few parties as possible. Professionalism dictates apologizing, even when you are right. It means placing the Org ahead of your ego, always, without fail, everytime.

Mike Foley failed the professionalism test. He failed it first on social media, again on Doodie, and for a third time in a poorly worded and disingenious apology. That’s three strikes and as an outsider looking in - I’d say folks need to demand him out.

You can do all of the good in the world - and still fuck up beyond all repair. If Foley wants to maintain status within USPSA - I suggest he make a heartfelt public apology, and not run for re-election when his term is up. If he wants to look like a pedantic child - he can continue acting like he is.

As for Stoeger -

Stoeger is a shit stirring smarmy d-bag that lots of folks don’t like - but he’s one man - beating many men with experience and skill right now. Like a clever prosecutor getting a defendant to incriminate themselves on the stand - Stoeger is merely walking from USPSA strawpile to strawpile setting them on fire. And showing the world what happens. It strikes me that the “old boys” who talk garbage while squadded up haven’t figured out how to “solve” guys like Stoeger or Berry yet. Because they don’t realize the solution is to make them board members and make them professional reps of the Org - eliminating their ability to talk shit about “the man” because they are “the man”.

——-

Anyways what this all taught me is - USPSA might as well stand for “United States Practical Shooting Amateurs” for the way they have acted in this scenario. Makes me seriously reconsider IDPA. Or starting my own shooting club (with blackjack and hookers).

Heh...if you liked this little drama you will LOVE shooting IDPA :D

I think USPSA is still great, and I suspect the membership at large will not stand for the magnitude of Foley's threat to either of the Bens the way he did for the magnitude of the supposed slight he incurred at the hands of facebook or instagram or whatever.

Stoeger is a strange flavor to be sure, but he's got a lot of love for the sport. I think he's an individual with the ability to break down into it's smallest parts the necessary skill to develop mastery and I think he understands fairly well the necessary steps to improve the sport. Just listening to his podcasts doesn't give me the notion that he is here solely for the giggles, but damn does he annoy the old fat white dudes who hate that he classified GM young, his first time around and wins shit like crazy.

Lemme know if you need a list of active USPSA clubs in the northern IL area btw (or when you start up the blackjack/hookers shooting league).

guymontag
06-05-2018, 08:50 PM
Foley has done a bunch of good stuff at USPSA ¬— cleaned house at HQ, upgraded the website, made classifications update weekly, started working on updating hit factors, introduced PCC (gasp), brought 140mm mags to CO, and probably a lot more good stuff I have forgotten. However, the emotional online banning threat is to me like having a dog that bites the neighbor¬’s kid.

All well and great until he kicks your ass out of the organization. :cool:

Oprah style - “you get the ban hammer and you get the ban hammer and you get the ban hammer!”

Anyone in that capacity should remember customer service and personal relations - especially since USPSA members are paying for a membership, a service.

“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.”

BigD
06-05-2018, 09:17 PM
Does the President have the power to ban someone without board approval?

As I understand it, he can ban someone until the next board meeting at which time the board would vote whether to sustain the ban. Foley claimed the board would back him since th BOD supposedly has long been tired of Stiggers antics (I’m sure they are tired of him but don’t know that they would have backed Foley).

And by antics I mean wearing flip flops to the award ceremony and using the trophy to crush a beer can. Real wild and wacky stuff. That was seven or eight years ago and the fat old guys are still talking about it. (He did troll Rudy Project really hard and stir up a bunch of other shit too, to be fair)

GuanoLoco
06-05-2018, 09:28 PM
Suspend, not ban.

Shoresy
06-05-2018, 09:42 PM
whether sleep deprived or not

Sounds like he could use some Ambien...

(too soon?)

holmes168
06-05-2018, 10:14 PM
So far outside- I don’t know what the doodie project is but here is a quick take.

I enjoy listening to Stoeger and have bought his Reloaded books. I think he seems to care about the sport and making people better. From what I read he is one of the best shooters out there.
I’ve never heard of the other two guys but the President seems to be way out of line. I don’t believe he has represented the organization well at all.

I think I need another year of training to shoot a USPSA match but this doesn’t diminish my enthusiasm.

HopetonBrown
06-05-2018, 10:20 PM
I think I need another year of training to shoot a USPSA match

No you don't.

BigD
06-05-2018, 10:43 PM
Suspend, not ban.

Correct.

I should add Foley didnít just threaten to suspend him, he did suspend him.

He publicly wrote that Ben was ineligible (for competition.)

GuanoLoco
06-05-2018, 11:19 PM
Drama: http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5893-ben-berry-banned-from-uspsa/

No drama: https://berryshooting.com/category/podcast/

Leroy
06-06-2018, 01:16 AM
So far outside- I donít know what the doodie project is but here is a quick take.

I enjoy listening to Stoeger and have bought his Reloaded books. I think he seems to care about the sport and making people better. From what I read he is one of the best shooters out there.
Iíve never heard of the other two guys but the President seems to be way out of line. I donít believe he has represented the organization well at all.

I think I need another year of training to shoot a USPSA match but this doesnít diminish my enthusiasm.

No you don't. Once you can safely perform the gun handling tasks of USPSA you need to shoot as many matches as possible. There is a skill set in USPSA that can only be learned at matches, stage breakdown, execution, etc. that cannot be learned in practice.

Wayne Dobbs
06-06-2018, 08:33 AM
All of this makes me remember the old saying of what IPSC stands for: Irritable People Squabbling Constantly

LittleLebowski
06-06-2018, 08:35 AM
All of this makes me remember the old saying of what IPSC stands for: Irritable People Squabbling Constantly

It's in PRS and IDPA too. Ben just uses this sort of thing to drive his image and business. That being said, his forum did expose some really shady shit in USPSA.

LittleLebowski
06-06-2018, 08:35 AM
No you don't. Once you can safely perform the gun handling tasks of USPSA you need to shoot as many matches as possible. There is a skill set in USPSA that can only be learned at matches, stage breakdown, execution, etc. that cannot be learned in practice.

This. Go shoot matches.

GJM
06-06-2018, 08:39 AM
It's in PRS and IDPA too. Ben just uses this sort of thing to drive his image and business. That being said, his forum did expose some really shady shit in USPSA.

Not so sure. It almost seems like he does stuff in spite of it hurting his business, if you define attracting sponsorship as part of his business. He is filling his training classes with people who want to shoot better, and I don’t think they care either way about the internet pillow fights.

LittleLebowski
06-06-2018, 08:46 AM
Not so sure. It almost seems like he does stuff in spite of it hurting his business, if you define attracting sponsorship as part of his business. He is filling his training classes with people who want to shoot better, and I don’t think they care either way about the internet pillow fights.

He's the self styled "bad boy" of USPSA. His forum name is a play upon the Rudy Project company, after a tiff regarding sponsorship of USPSA shooters.

Peally
06-06-2018, 08:49 AM
Ben can be abrasive (like most of us), but he's also one of the guys regularly plopping this sort of thing online for everyone to see. I'd rather everyone know, otherwise you get IDPA.

He's one fucking guy. Wearing flip flops to an awards ceremony years ago apparently butthurt a whole lot of people. Instead of brushing it off like grown ass adults USPSA has a nice little petty old fart trap club politics thing growing internally apparently.

This is not the first time Foley has gone full-pissed on the internet, and I'm not entirely convinced a hasty apology cuts it at this point. A much more prudent approach would have been not getting into sad piss fights on the internet in the first place.




This all doesn't affect much of anything as far as shooting matches, but what a fucking stupid way to garner some bad publicity for your sport.

Peally
06-06-2018, 08:52 AM
He's the self styled "bad boy" of USPSA. His forum name is a play upon the Rudy Project company, after a tiff regarding sponsorship of USPSA shooters.

That's a good thing, we need more Stoegers not fewer. Unlike IDPA USPSA has the ability to be policed from the inside and a bunch of assholes getting things done and letting everything out for the world to see is better than a bunch of groupthinkers hidden behind closed doors.

Also Rudy Project is stupid, hopefully the Doodie Project name stands for all time to reflect that :cool:

rob_s
06-06-2018, 10:13 AM
I go back and forth on this stuff...

Ont he one hand, lots of people are happy that Ben and others have shined a spotlight on "shady shit" within USPSA, and in the process gotten a lot of people mad about flip flops and general juvenile behavior.

But, sans internet, would anyone even know or care? Would "exit out the back of the stage" and "popper calibration" matter to anyone anywhere, other than maybe a select few that are actually capable of performing at the highest levels?

It all feels like much ado about nothing.

On a miro/local scale...
I'm old enough and have been competing long enough that my original IDPA club didn't have a real web presence when I started. We all saw each other 1-4 times a month, got along great at the range, went out for beers after matches, and generally had zero personality issues or drama that lasted more than 20 minutes. We start a forum, and all hell breaks loose. Suddenly it turns out that the guy that sat to the left of you at lunch last week is a drunk 3% lunatic, and the guy that sat to your right is a liberal fake lawyer that never passed the bar, and clearly both of them are horrible human beings. Yet somehow at said lunch everyone was getting along just fine. You only know any of this "bad" shit because they both got on the forum and pulled their pants down.

So, as a relatively casual USPSA shooter (or, non-shooter these days) who would like to shoot more, I frankly don't find that any of the crap these people go on and on about affects my enjoyment of the game at all, and frankly usually wished they'd just STFU.

But, as a human being, I don't mind watching the drama. I don't watch shows like Game of Thrones or other dramas, so I guess I'll get my fix from the shooting sissies.

Wendell
06-06-2018, 10:35 AM
...a sarcastic, shit stirring, occasionally smarmy, d-bag, asshole - I know that...

Where is that video where Taran Rogers is doing a verbal impression of Rob Leatham talking about Ben Stoeger? That was pretty funny back then, I bet it'd be even more funny now.

Clusterfrack
06-06-2018, 10:50 AM
That's a good thing, we need more Stoegers not fewer. Unlike IDPA USPSA has the ability to be policed from the inside and a bunch of assholes getting things done and letting everything out for the world to see is better than a bunch of groupthinkers hidden behind closed doors.


Peally, I couldn’t agree more. Ben can be a dick, but he’s a good guy who wants the best for USPSA. He’s also an incredible competitor. Maybe the best our sport has ever had.

If I ever win a major, I’m wearing flip flops to awards.

GuanoLoco
06-06-2018, 02:40 PM
Posted to Ben Stoeger's Facebook Page:


I thought it would be appropriate to make a post to inform people that follow my page and may be confused about recent events I have been involved in on social media. I am posting this to provide context to my actions.

1. I will be allowed to shoot (I think). At this time the USPSA President has decided not to move forward with suspending me from the organization and asking the BOD to issue a lifetime ban.

2. I posted what I posted and got exactly the response I was expecting from the USPSA President because I have become aware of a pattern of abusive behavior like you saw play out online. Obviously the person running your organization should not treat people that way, in public or private.

3. I know the way I handled this was controversial. I also understand that actions have repercussions. I understood these consequences before I posted anything and I accept them.

4. This is not the only incident involving the USPSA President. I am informed by other parties that at least some members of the BOD are aware of other, unrelated incidents. I am aware of other incidents that were never reported to the BOD. It is up to aggrieved parties to make these situations public or contact the BOD if they so choose. I passed some things up the USPSA chain that were not public and I respect individuals that gave me information but asked that I exercise discretion with it. Those people can handle their individual situations however they personally see fit.

5. There are email accounts that are sending communications to BOD members and others posing as me. If you got an email from me and we don't normally communicate, then you may not actually be communicating with me. My email address is BenStoeger@gmail.com If you are getting emails from an address that isn't that one then you aren't talking to me.

GuanoLoco
06-06-2018, 04:19 PM
Statement from the Board of Directors
U.S. PRACTICAL SHOOTING ASSN. (USPSA)∑WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 2018
June 6, 2018

The Board of Directors of the United States Practical Shooting Association has been actively engaged with a recent issue regarding poor judgment, language and tone used in recent communications by our President. The Board appreciates the high volume of members who reached out to us with their concerns, suggestions and overwhelming support.

The USPSA Board has not delayed in addressing this extremely serious situation. The language used was lacking in good judgment, and the tenor of the conversation was disappointing, to say the least. We strive for, and expect, better.

The Board has taken a statement from the President. We have discussed the matter at length, and examined a spectrum of possible actions. We have decided on a set of outcomes focused on ensuring this will not happen again.

The long standing policy of United States Practical Shooting Association is to adhere to all Federal, State, and Local employment privacy laws. Discussion or public release of any information, other than as required by law, as it relates to an employee of the organization, would be inappropriate and at minimum violate USPSA employment policies and practices. As such, a discussion of disciplinary actions taken, if any, would be in conflict with those sound policies.

The Board recognizes we must do better as an organization. We will use this as a 'teachable moment' and an opportunity to better educate ourselves with more positive methods of social media interaction, and all other communication, to the benefit of our members and the organization as a whole. Professional training will be provided for officers and employees, to further educate us on the best practices in communicating through social media and all other media. USPSAís legal counsel will also advise us regarding the legal implications and obligations of statements we make as officers of USPSA.

This is an endeavor the Board is committed to.

The Board of Directors, United States Practical Shooting Association

holmes168
06-06-2018, 04:23 PM
Again- completely from the outside- the BOD needs to do something strong IMO. I just don’t think it would be hard to start another shooting league. It’s not the NFL or NBA. Ben Stoeger seems to have a loyal following and I could see people following him.

On another note- the comments above convinced me- I’m going to look into a USPSA match in the Fort Worth area. Now just have to find one.

JFK
06-06-2018, 04:24 PM
A couple of observations on following this.

1. I went and read the Doodie thread. I feel dumber for doing so, its like reading the comments of a news story. It really makes me appreciate this forum and the decorum, respect and thoughtfulness that is here, both shooting and in general wisdom. (mods are still shit)

2. The longer this goes without action one way or the other the worse it is for this sport. As word spreads there is more conjecture, gossip, and tribes forming. A true leader that was acting as a fiduciary for any organization would have stepped aside, at least temporarily pending BOD review to keep the integrity of the organization in tact and limit the fracturing that is inevitable with unfortunate situations such as this.

3. I have hosted Ben for a class. His personality is pretty much how he comes across on the interwebz. However if you can get past your own ego on how you would like people to talk to you, it is quite apparent that he really cares about shooting, teaching, and raising other people up. He is generally interested in those who provide his livelihood. Once that becomes clear, the rest of his internet personality makes sense, and becomes more ironic, sarcastic, or just personality type. You may like it or you may not.

Clusterfrack
06-06-2018, 04:25 PM
At least that appears to be a professional approach. However, Iím concerned that the elephant in the room (threats of lifetime ban) is being ignored.

JFK
06-06-2018, 04:27 PM
At least that appears to be a professional approach. However, I’m concerned that the elephant in the room (threats of lifetime ban) is being ignored.

This is a big deal. It goes to the absolute power corrupts absolutely cliche. You can't have that in any organization that has rules.

JFK
06-06-2018, 04:45 PM
What a weak, non actionable response. This will not go over well.

BOD statement off the USPSA Facebook page.


June 6, 2018
The Board of Directors of the United States Practical Shooting Association has been actively engaged with a recent issue regarding poor judgment, language and tone used in recent communications by our President. The Board appreciates the high volume of members who reached out to us with their concerns, suggestions and overwhelming support.
The USPSA Board has not delayed in addressing this extremely serious situation. The language used was lacking in good judgment, and the tenor of the conversation was disappointing, to say the least. We strive for, and expect, better.
The Board has taken a statement from the President. We have discussed the matter at length, and examined a spectrum of possible actions. We have decided on a set of outcomes focused on ensuring this will not happen again.
The long standing policy of United States Practical Shooting Association is to adhere to all Federal, State, and Local employment privacy laws. Discussion or public release of any information, other than as required by law, as it relates to an employee of the organization, would be inappropriate and at minimum violate USPSA employment policies and practices. As such, a discussion of disciplinary actions taken, if any, would be in conflict with those sound policies.
The Board recognizes we must do better as an organization. We will use this as a 'teachable moment' and an opportunity to better educate ourselves with more positive methods of social media interaction, and all other communication, to the benefit of our members and the organization as a whole. Professional training will be provided for officers and employees, to further educate us on the best practices in communicating through social media and all other media. USPSA’s legal counsel will also advise us regarding the legal implications and obligations of statements we make as officers of USPSA.
This is an endeavor the Board is committed to.
The Board of Directors, United States Practical Shooting Association

Zincwarrior
06-06-2018, 05:30 PM
Again- completely from the outside- the BOD needs to do something strong IMO. I just donít think it would be hard to start another shooting league. Itís not the NFL or NBA. Ben Stoeger seems to have a loyal following and I could see people following him.

On another note- the comments above convinced me- Iím going to look into a USPSA match in the Fort Worth area. Now just have to find one.

You are on luck. While I am an Austinite, it's my understanding that there are multiple clubs in the metroplex.

Mitch
06-06-2018, 06:06 PM
At least that appears to be a professional approach. However, Iím concerned that the elephant in the room (threats of lifetime ban) is being ignored.

100% that was written by the corporate counsel retained by USPSA. I would bet money the board had no input beyond "we don't want to fire him."

Foley's language was stupid. His charge should be making the shooting sports more inclusive, not pushing people out. But yeah, pick on an entire generation (who will be the largest portion of the workforce soon, read: disposable income, which you should care about in a recreational sport) and sexual orientation. Yeah that's smart.

That being said, I take bigger issue with exactly what Clusterfrack is saying. The stance of "obey or be banned" is completely unacceptable. If the board doesn't do something about it, then to me they're endorsing it.

ubervic
06-06-2018, 06:15 PM
Yet another reason why I avoid these ‘specialized’ shooting sports groups.

RevolverRob
06-06-2018, 06:23 PM
Hahahahaha

What a shit response. It basically said, "We know Foley said some dirty words. He'll get some sensitivity training and promises not to say them (publicly) again."

No mention of if bylaws will be re-written to prevent unilateral suspension by the president. No apology to those who were targeted by Foley's ire. No formal apology, period.

Ridiculous.

Peally
06-06-2018, 06:59 PM
Yet another reason why I avoid these ‘specialized’ shooting sports groups.

Corporate drama is a crap reason to avoid the bar-none greatest test of fundamental pistol skills available to you.

USPSA will tell you you are fucking garbage at shooting, and provide the testing curriculum to become a god compared to the average CCW twit on the street. Presidents change every few years, the resources available to you don't. Take advantage of them.

Peally
06-06-2018, 07:03 PM
Hahahahaha

What a shit response. It basically said, "We know Foley said some dirty words. He'll get some sensitivity training and promises not to say them (publicly) again."

No mention of if bylaws will be re-written to prevent unilateral suspension by the president. No apology to those who were targeted by Foley's ire. No formal apology, period.

Ridiculous.

Compared to most other things USPSA is a teeny sports organization, it's pretty much all we could hope for at this point. Ideally it won't happen again, but it certainly might and that's when this gets more interesting.

RJ
06-06-2018, 07:30 PM
On another note- the comments above convinced me- Iím going to look into a USPSA match in the Fort Worth area. Now just have to find one.

Iím a literal nobody in shooting, but this is the best thing Iíve read in the thread. Shooting USPSA is a blast. I wasnít ready either, but I thought what the hell, I went anyway.

Best of luck to ya!

Spartan1980
06-06-2018, 08:05 PM
So am I the only one that's hearing that Foley went off the rails, so they are mandating a EVERYONE go through a bunch of political correctness training? I bet they are all just thrilled at that! As a member I think there are better things to spend our dues on too. What a load of tripe.

olstyn
06-06-2018, 08:35 PM
I’m a literal nobody in shooting, but this is the best thing I’ve read in the thread. Shooting USPSA is a blast. I wasn’t ready either, but I thought what the hell, I went anyway.

Best of luck to ya!

All kinds of this. If your reaction the first time you shoot USPSA isn't something akin to "Holy shit I'm terrible...I want to go again," there's something wrong with you. :)

ragnar_d
06-06-2018, 09:29 PM
Again- completely from the outside- the BOD needs to do something strong IMO. I just donít think it would be hard to start another shooting league. Itís not the NFL or NBA. Ben Stoeger seems to have a loyal following and I could see people following him.
You'd be surprised. There was a group that was trying to start a 2-gun (Rifle/Carbine) shooting league/organization like 3-Gun Nation did to address one of the main complaints of 3-gun (the shotgun) and make it something that was less equipment intensive and easier to get into. They had affiliated clubs, a good rulebook (or so I thought) and after one national match I heard nothing more. Into the ether . . . sad too, I would have really preferred that to 3-gun. I think 3GN and PRS are the most recent ones to rise up and I get the feeling that 3-gun has been on the decline for a few years now. We'll see though.


On another note- the comments above convinced me- Iím going to look into a USPSA match in the Fort Worth area. Now just have to find one.
Nicely done. You'll have a lot of fun and it's a great learning experience. I've met a lot of good friends through the years at matches too. If you haven't checked already, look at the USPSA website, there's a page that can help you find local matches (https://uspsa.org/find-a-club). Also, check out the Practiscore (https://practiscore.com/search/matches)page. There's a lot of matches listed there.

Zincwarrior
06-06-2018, 10:20 PM
So am I the only one that's hearing that Foley went off the rails, so they are mandating a EVERYONE go through a bunch of political correctness training? I bet they are all just thrilled at that! As a member I think there are better things to spend our dues on too. What a load of tripe.
It's ok. The training will be held in Vegas or the Bahamas.

GuanoLoco
06-06-2018, 11:27 PM
It's ok. The training will be held in Vegas or the Bahamas.

Only for Board Members. Regular USPSA members will receive training at the beginning of all matches in July.

farscott
06-07-2018, 05:13 AM
The Machiavellian part of me thinks the BoD response is perfect. Here is my thinking for what it is worth.

1) The teachable moment requires that all USPSA members attend training.

2) That training will surely mention "hate" language, especially terms usually directed at people of different sexual orientations, is not allowed for any USPSA member.

3) The Doodie forum will be itself.

4) Both forum members and Mr. Stoeger will be penalized. Members for using "hate" language on the forum, and Mr. Stoeger for hosting the hateful comments.

5) Work on the next step of the takeover of the world.

Cory
06-07-2018, 08:31 AM
I think the BOD response is lacking. It seems to address the "potentially offensive language" used more than the President's incorrect use of authority. I also think that those who are paying USPSA members have a right to know what actions are being taken by the BOD.

Transparency seems lacking in USPSA. That pretty much concretes that while I will inevitably become a USPSA shooter I'll never be more. Why invest time and effort becoming an RO, MD, or anything else if the organization isnt willing to be open and honest? I realize I'm not yet a member, but certainly this has to discourage further participation?

-Cory

Cheap Shot
06-07-2018, 09:05 AM
I'll stand with Foley on this.

He's exceeded my expectations as President. Aside from the local USPSA volunteers, the President does the most for making my monthly match a reality. Not the critics. Its easy to point out the failure of those doing the work, tougher to actually do the work.

Don't see why anyone of accomplishment would ever take the President's position if BOD and members don't have your back.

GJM
06-07-2018, 09:37 AM
Actions carry so much more weight with me than words. I am interested in what happens going forward, regardless of what is or is not sad now.

scw2
06-07-2018, 09:47 AM
Why invest time and effort becoming an RO, MD, or anything else if the organization isnt willing to be open and honest? I realize I'm not yet a member, but certainly this has to discourage further participation?

While I understand your disgust for the national level leadership, if you're competing on the local level I am certain that most of the shooters appreciate the work put in by their club level volunteers. Without those people, many matches wouldn't happen, or would likely cost way more than they do today. I would not write off helping at that level to help your club's growth.

Clusterfrack
06-07-2018, 10:50 AM
Interesting take. Its not a bad thing to remind officers and members not to use bad language at matches and events.

Officers of USPSA should also have a reminder of how to behave while on the job.

Itís disturbing to think that the USPSA BoD would try to restrict what members say outside of official USPSA events, and on social media. I hope this isnít the direction it goes.


The Machiavellian part of me thinks the BoD response is perfect. Here is my thinking for what it is worth.

1) The teachable moment requires that all USPSA members attend training.

2) That training will surely mention "hate" language, especially terms usually directed at people of different sexual orientations, is not allowed for any USPSA member.

3) The Doodie forum will be itself.

4) Both forum members and Mr. Stoeger will be penalized. Members for using "hate" language on the forum, and Mr. Stoeger for hosting the hateful comments.

5) Work on the next step of the takeover of the world.

AMC
06-07-2018, 03:14 PM
While it's a good thing to remind competitors of proper sportsmanship, I don't see anything in the BoD's statement about training for USPSA members in regards to "sensitivity", etc. Can someone point me to that? Looks like they're talking about officers and employees. Gotta say...if they mean members, too, that'll likely end my involvement in USPSA. I have had incalculable amounts of that shoved down my throat at work for the last 27 years. I don't need it in my hobby pursuits, and I pretty much won't be involved if it's the case.

ranger
06-07-2018, 06:35 PM
I started shooting USPSA in 1986. I shot for practice and fun. I focused on the "fun" portion and refused to get drug into the politics and the local club level and specifically avoided the drama at the regional and national levels. Saw many changes in USPSA during that period - the beginning of compensated pistols, then hi-caps, then RDS. I had plenty of stress at work, National Guard, plus wife and kids - I focused on the "fun" side of USPSA. I used to shoot at least one match per weekend and tried to shoot State and Area matches. Never wanted to try the Nationals. One day, I realized that I was spending a phenomenal amount of time to shoot 4 or more stages measured in seconds - decided I could shoot more for less time and less cost not competing and stopped.

In the 1980s in the Dallas TX area, we had an extremely talented shooter who successfully tried to irritate every other USPSA competitor in the region. Final straw was he started insulting and hitting on some of the other competitors wives - he was first and only person I ever heard of that was formally and permanently banned from USPSA.

GuanoLoco
06-07-2018, 11:01 PM
Only for Board Members. Regular USPSA members will receive training at the beginning of all matches in July.


While it's a good thing to remind competitors of proper sportsmanship, I don't see anything in the BoD's statement about training for USPSA members in regards to "sensitivity", etc. Can someone point me to that? Looks like they're talking about officers and employees. Gotta say...if they mean members, too, that'll likely end my involvement in USPSA. I have had incalculable amounts of that shoved down my throat at work for the last 27 years. I don't need it in my hobby pursuits, and I pretty much won't be involved if it's the case.

I might have been making a joke, but if you like, we can add a 20 minute sensitivity training session to the safety briefing.

AMC
06-08-2018, 03:00 AM
I might have been making a joke, but if you like, we can add a 20 minute sensitivity training session to the safety briefing.

Oh yes, please. Followed by a long, slow root canal!

JustOneGun
06-08-2018, 07:29 AM
Perhaps a different perspective as someone from the outside,

Having been involved with type A's for my entire adult life and priding myself on being a disruptive thinker (nice way of saying I'm an Adam Henry) a few things are almost always present.

1. The organization you are disrupting doesn't need you.
2. The Adam Henry is never pure when being disruptive. Ego and lacking a sense of self can definitely come into play.
3. Just because you are exceptional at something doesn't mean you are exceptional at a related field.
4. Because of the above, what a disruptive person is trying to do might be totally ignorant, wrong, stupid and they are just hiding behind their notoriety to protect them.

BN
06-08-2018, 10:04 AM
I've been shooting USPSA since before it was USPSA and I've seen all the presidents. Foley has done a good job and I would vote for him again.

JodyH
06-08-2018, 11:06 AM
I'll keep plugging away as MD/jack-of-all-trades of our little Level I matches and continue to ignore all the drama associated with the "serious" people.
Any directives of the PC kind will be promptly thrown in the trash with extreme prejudice.

Cheap Shot
06-08-2018, 11:20 AM
I'll keep plugging away as MD/jack-of-all-trades of our little Level I matches and continue to ignore all the drama associated with the "serious" people.
Any directives of the PC kind will be promptly thrown in the trash with extreme prejudice.

If we get any PC directives at the local level I'll think mean thoughts about Guano Loco.....

Zincwarrior
06-08-2018, 12:25 PM
In the 1980s in the Dallas TX area, we had an extremely talented shooter who successfully tried to irritate every other USPSA competitor in the region. Final straw was he started insulting and hitting on some of the other competitors wives - he was first and only person I ever heard of that was formally and permanently banned from USPSA.

Did he actively want to die? Hitting on the wives of well armed people is one excellent way to do it.

rob_s
06-08-2018, 12:28 PM
Did he actively want to die? Hitting on the wives of well armed people is one excellent way to do it.

I literally just chuckled at the notion that some USPSA competitor is going to skin his smokewaggon, load it, and shoot some dude because he hit on his wife at a match.

Common.

ranger
06-08-2018, 12:34 PM
Did he actively want to die? Hitting on the wives of well armed people is one excellent way to do it.

That is why the ban because it was past awkward and tense

Zincwarrior
06-08-2018, 12:59 PM
I literally just chuckled at the notion that some USPSA competitor is going to skin his smokewaggon, load it, and shoot some dude because he hit on his wife at a match.

Common.

Hey, if you were married to a Texas woman you might over react too. Cue Hank Williams Jr in three..two...one...

Peally
06-08-2018, 01:18 PM
In the 1980s in the Dallas TX area, we had an extremely talented shooter who successfully tried to irritate every other USPSA competitor in the region. Final straw was he started insulting and hitting on some of the other competitors wives - he was first and only person I ever heard of that was formally and permanently banned from USPSA.

Look up Paul Hendrix, every once in a while a fuckhead is ejected from USPSA for legitimate reasons.

fatdog
06-08-2018, 01:26 PM
Been 15+ years ago, but we had a local USPSA competitor who's wife passed away at a young age. "Fellow competitor" and his wife were having him to dinner and doing stuff with him to comfort him and cheer him up. "Fellow competitor's" wife ended up leaving him to marry this widower. "Fellow competitor" simply left the sport and became a cowboy action shooter.

No violence on anyone's part, but the soap opera nature of the whole thing shocked a few of us in the local USPSA community. I would have been very uncomfortable if "fellow competitor" had stayed with the sport, we the local match directors had agreed that we were certainly never going to squad them together if he had. I was told that "fellow competitor" was also very mad at his local friends in the sport who he was sure saw all this happening, or starting to happen, and never warned him.

JodyH
06-08-2018, 02:05 PM
I don't have to deal with any asshole drama at matches.
As a board member of the hosting gun range I can just ban them from the range for any reason I want (if they are a guest not a dues paying member).
I don't even have to get USPSA involved. Heck I don't even have to DQ them or eject them from the match.
"Hey there Mr. Asshole. As the property representative I'm trespassing you from the range, if you're not off the property in 5 minutes I'll have you arrested."
"You can cry to USPSA all you want. You're not ejected from the match... just the range it's hosted at. I'm not making this decision as a USPSA MD, i'm acting as a private club board member."
:p

Zincwarrior
06-08-2018, 02:15 PM
I don't have to deal with any asshole drama at matches.
As a board member of the hosting gun range I can just ban them from the range for any reason I want (if they are a guest not a dues paying member).
I don't even have to get USPSA involved. Heck I don't even have to DQ them or eject them from the match.
"Hey there Mr. Asshole. As the property representative I'm trespassing you from the range, if you're not off the property in 5 minutes I'll have you arrested."
"You can cry to USPSA all you want. You're not ejected from the match... just the range it's hosted at. I'm not making this decision as a USPSA MD, i'm acting as a private club board member."
:p

Don't mess with Jody the vorpal bunny...

JodyH
06-08-2018, 02:35 PM
Don't mess with Jody the vorpal bunny...
We've never had any real asses show up to shoot.
I guess Level I matches are beneath them.
We do get the occasional slacker when it comes to tape and reset, but my wife (scorer) gives a great "motivational speech" that usually shames them into compliance.

Zincwarrior
06-08-2018, 02:43 PM
We've never had any real asses show up to shoot.
I guess Level I matches are beneath them.
We do get the occasional slacker when it comes to tape and reset, but my wife (scorer) gives a great "motivational speech" that usually shames them into compliance.

Excellent. I need to record her speech for the next time I am SOing. I only have two real complaints about USPSA: the number of stages requiring bending/laying down (old fart with knee and back issues); and that it seemed an inordinant amount of players always seem "too busy" to tape/reset.

JodyH
06-08-2018, 02:45 PM
Excellent. I need to record her speech for the next time I am SOing.
Just watch the first half of "Full Metal Jacket" and imagine it in a female voice.

GuanoLoco
06-08-2018, 03:19 PM
I know it was just a matter of time before someone posted one of these: http://captiongenerator.com/985522/Foley-at-HQ

Peally
06-08-2018, 04:23 PM
Excellent. I need to record her speech for the next time I am SOing. I only have two real complaints about USPSA: the number of stages requiring bending/laying down (old fart with knee and back issues); and that it seemed an inordinant amount of players always seem "too busy" to tape/reset.

While people should be pasting versus sitting around jack jawing, USPSA does demand more time from you when you're not shooting just as a side effect of being designed the way it is.

RO...ROing, by the way. Only safety officers around are off duty cops carrying tourniquets ;)

Peally
06-08-2018, 04:26 PM
I know it was just a matter of time before someone posted one of these: http://captiongenerator.com/985522/Foley-at-HQ

I spit out laughing at my monitor when he screamed "millenial fags"

ragnar_d
06-08-2018, 08:52 PM
We do get the occasional slacker when it comes to tape and reset, but my wife (scorer) gives a great "motivational speech" that usually shames them into compliance.
MD at the matches I shot and RO'ed at always said that anyone not pulling their weight on pasting/resetting would have their scoresheet lost between the last stage and the scoring shack. Only ever had two prima donnas that I had to threaten with that . . . including one brass rat GM who asked if he could go first on the last stage because it was hot and he wanted to leave. I think he shot that might have shot that stage DFL. :mad:

wtturn
06-10-2018, 04:53 PM
I don't have to deal with any asshole drama at matches.
As a board member of the hosting gun range I can just ban them from the range for any reason I want (if they are a guest not a dues paying member).
I don't even have to get USPSA involved. Heck I don't even have to DQ them or eject them from the match.
"Hey there Mr. Asshole. As the property representative I'm trespassing you from the range, if you're not off the property in 5 minutes I'll have you arrested."
"You can cry to USPSA all you want. You're not ejected from the match... just the range it's hosted at. I'm not making this decision as a USPSA MD, i'm acting as a private club board member."
:pSounds like a good way to get your USPSA affiliation revoked.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

Trooper224
06-11-2018, 06:43 PM
All of this juvenile drama, on both sides of the issue as I find Ben Stoeger to a pretty complete tool shed himself, are prime examples why I typically avoid competition like the plague. It has nothing to do with training on things that will get you kilt on da streetz. It's all about having zero tolerance for bullshit that should have been left behind in the highschool lunch room.

Peally
06-11-2018, 06:46 PM
All of this juvenile drama, on both sides of the issue as I find Ben Stoeger to a pretty complete tool shed himself, are prime examples why I typically avoid competition like the plague. It has nothing to do with training on things that will get you kilt on da streetz. It's all about having zero tolerance for bullshit that should have been left behind in the highschool lunch room.

That sounds like you're fishing for a reason. It's a crap one, regardless.

Go shoot matches.

ST911
06-11-2018, 07:13 PM
All of this juvenile drama, on both sides of the issue as I find Ben Stoeger to a pretty complete tool shed himself, are prime examples why I typically avoid competition like the plague. It has nothing to do with training on things that will get you kilt on da streetz. It's all about having zero tolerance for bullshit that should have been left behind in the highschool lunch room.

Far removed from these events, massive amounts of folks that come out for their local club matches every weekend have no idea who Mike Foley or Ben Stoeger are, and will not ever be card-carrying members of USPSA or IDPA. Indicting competition for a couple of personalities having a social media slap fest is like condemning all LE for a couple of cops shining their ass in public.

Trooper224
06-11-2018, 07:52 PM
Far removed from these events, massive amounts of folks that come out for their local club matches every weekend have no idea who Mike Foley or Ben Stoeger are, and will not ever be card-carrying members of USPSA or IDPA. Indicting competition for a couple of personalities having a social media slap fest is like condemning all LE for a couple of cops shining their ass in public.

Practice false equivalency much?

Hardly just a couple of personalities, but rather years of experience with everything from kids softball to National Highpower Rifle Competition. It's my opinion and I give absolutely zero fucks what you think of it. Go ahead and trash LE work if you want. I'm well aware of it's problems. The difference is, I don't get sand in my mangina every time someone has a less than favorable opinion of it.

Trooper224
06-11-2018, 07:53 PM
That sounds like you're fishing for a reason. It's a crap one, regardless.

Go shoot matches.

Reference my response in post 107, the same applies to you. Fishing? Don't have any use for that either.

Clusterfrack
06-11-2018, 08:00 PM
My experience at USPSA local, area, and Nationals is that nearly everyone is super nice. Actually Iíve never seen a lower douche factor than at USPSA matches. Ben is a nice guy in person, and so are nearly all the top shooters Iíve met and squadded with. Thereís a decent number of females shooting USPSA and I think that supports a low DB factor.

Iíve met Mike Foley, and he seemed nice too.

A few ROs have been major dicks, but not typically.

IDPA had way more douchebags, as did Multigun and PRS.

Peally
06-11-2018, 09:05 PM
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lmao OK whatever you say