FBI agent ND while dancing

[GJM]

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/02/fbi-mile-high-spirits-shooting/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LejzQQdVfzk

[Duces Tecum]

Alcohol may be involved.

[RJ]

He may have a bit of explaining to do.

[Kyle Reese]

"When the agent retrieved his handgun, an unintended discharge occurred".



Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

Being armed
Going to bars
Consuming alcohol
Doing back flips on the dance floor
Allowing pistol to fall out of holster and hit the floor
Picking it up by the trigger

What could possibly go wrong?

[Rex G]

Whether or not I dance, I could never do a back-flip, or a front flip, either, for that matter.

J. Edgar would have immediately fired that idiot. The kinder, gentler FBI of today, well, we shall see.

[blues]

FBI - Foolhardy Breakdancing Incidents

(Having done some foolhardy things myself back in the day, I'll not comment further lest I tempt lightning.)

[LittleLebowski]

Added video to OP. Was Agent Dipshit wearing a holster?

[ubervic]

This scenario thrusts upon us an entirely new dimension of FAIL.

[fixer]

um yeah. This is really stacking up the memes for the FBI.

[GardoneVT]

Whether or not I dance, I could never do a back-flip, or a front flip, either, for that matter.

J. Edgar would have immediately fired that idiot. The kinder, gentler FBI of today, well, we shall see.

Even today, Bureau agents are expected to show Integrity with their dance moves. NDs are poor form -but backflips in public?

[Totem Polar]

Terrifying level of fail, since a bystander got shot.

Good thing for the agent that Denver homicide is only investigating a shooting, and not, you know... a homicide.

[olstyn]

Hadn't seen the video before now. Call me crazy, but I think that even if I was confident that I could do a backflip and that my holster would retain the gun in that scenario, I'd refrain from doing so while carrying, simply because it seems like that would be an easy way to fail at concealment. Losing the gun on the floor like that just seems like extra bonus fail, and of course touching the trigger while retrieving it, well, not much needs to be said there...

[HCM]

Added video to OP. Was Agent Dipshit wearing a holster?

Yes you can see an IWB holster of some type in the SOB position.

[HCM]

FBI - Foolhardy Breakdancing Incidents

(Having done some foolhardy things myself back in the day, I'll not comment further lest I tempt lightning.)

This ^^^ plus :

1) most cops are not gun people.
2) most would be surprised how few cops carry off duty. See # 1.
3) how many commenting in this thread can do a back flip ? I can’t.

[1942bull]

I wonder what his next employment will be. I hope he does not start a firearms training course. He should be banned from having a gun for life. I wonder if it will get him on the NICS no gun list.

[HCM]

I wonder what his next employment will be. I hope he does not start a firearms training course. He should be banned from having a gun for life. I wonder if it will get him on the NICS no gun list.

This is an ignorant statement.

While these circumstances are unique, and there should, and likely will be some consequene for the Agent, any one can have an ND. The more you handle firearms the greater the odds. Many big name “expert” firearms trainers have had NDs, Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper, Mas Ayoob and Travis Haley to name a few. Should they all be barred from firearms ownership ?

We mitigate as best we can but in the real world it’s not a matter of if, but when and how bad.

To speak plainly, Shit happens.

[HopetonBrown]

I wonder what his next employment will be. I hope he does not start a firearms training course. He should be banned from having a gun for life. I wonder if it will get him on the NICS no gun list.Co-founder of this forum on the "safety sin".

https://pistol-training.com/archives/1241

https://pistol-training.com/archives/8265

[1942bull]

This is a pretty ignorant statement.

While these circumstances are unique, and there should, and likely will be some consequene for the Agent, any one can have an ND. The more you handle firearms the greater the odds. Many big name “expert” firearms trainers have had NDs, Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper, Mas Ayoob and Travis Haley to name a few. Should they all be barred from firearms ownership ?

We mitigate as best we can but in the real world it’s not a matter of if, but when and how bad.

How many of the people you mention had the negligent dicharge doing a backflip while dancing in a nightclub? Add to that the fact that the gun was IWB in small of back without a holster. Of course anyone could have an accidental discharge. All are negligent to some degree but I betting your body in mid air with an unholstered gun IWB seems to me to be the pinnacle of carelessness. If he did not do,that or had the gun properly holstered it would not have not dropped out and he would not have fired it while having to pick it up. This FBI Agent redefined negligent gun handling. I do not see my statement as ignorant. It was informed. If you actually think the agent’s actions were acceptable on the basis that anyone can have an accident than I think that is a failure of judgement.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

He, though, should be banned from working for Arthur Murray's Tactical Dance Institute. HCM is correct. Even the best do. I know one well known instructor who shot his dash board. I saw another very well known instructor (never point your gun, etc.) when asked by a student about a draw stroke, drew his gun on the student to demonstrate. It was hot and he turned white with horror. He dropped and did 50 for a penance.

Despite his dance moves, he basically flashed through all we know about gun safety as he panicked in front of a crowd and want to get the gun back in control.

Don't point your gun at ... At a match (I designed the stage), where you had to rescue a heavy dummy. The stage was oriented to put right handed shooters under some cognitive stress as to how to navigate it (take that you right handed SOBs). My buddy, a very experience shooter, got turned around and faced the crowd. He shook his head, took the DQ and just drove away.

Now is dancing a good stress innoculation exercise? That is a different story.

The problem is the part of the statement that he should be banned from having a gun for life. That's like saying someone who would vote for Trump or Hillary - should be banned from voting for life. Which is a damn good idea, IMHO.

[TC215]

How many of the people you mention had the negligent dicharge doing a backflip while dancing in a nightclub? Add to that the fact that the gun was IWB in small of back without a holster. Of course anyone could have an accidental discharge. All are negligent to some degree but I betting your body in mid air with an unholstered gun IWB seems to me to be the pinnacle of carelessness. This FBI Agent redefined negligent gun handling. I do not see my statement as ignorant. It was informed. If you actually think the agent’s actions were acceptable on the basis that anyone can have an accident than I think that is a failure of judgement.

He didn’t ND doing a backflip. He ND’d picking the gun up off the ground with his finger on the trigger.

Also, as posted above, it appears he was using an IWB holster.

[BehindBlueI's]

3) how many commenting in this thread can do a back flip ?

*warning, That Guy mode activated*

I can. If I start on top of a ladder and am not required to survive the attempt.

*That Guy mode deactivated*


In all seriousness, when you carry a gun constantly you forget you've got a gun on just like you aren't constantly aware of your wallet in your pocket or (if you wear glasses) glasses perched on your nose. You only notice when something's wrong. Like it hits the floor. My very first carry holster was...and Uncle Mike's sausage sack. I had ordered a "good" holster but wanted to carry my Taurus 85CH (shut up) before it could arrive. I sat down and the good ol' Uncle coughed my .38 out and onto the floor. The act of sitting was like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, only with a gun and shit holster. I was acutely aware of the gun for awhile since it was both novel and I'd already dropped it. These days, with good gear and decades of carrying, it's only noticeable in it's absence.

[1942bull]

He didn’t ND doing a backflip. He ND’d picking the gun up off the ground with his finger on the trigger.

Also, as posted above, it appears he was using an IWB holster.


It was the backflip with the improperly secured gun (holster or not) that was most negligent. If you are going to do backflips with a gun you really ought to have a holster that offers reliable positive retention. He lost possession of his gun in a dance Stunt. If he had not done that the gun would never have hit the floor and he would not have had to retrieve it. No one would have been shot. I am done

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You are done but do you still think he should be banned from guns for life?

Should everyone who caused a car accident be banned from driving for life. Yes, goddamn it - that moron who ruined my shoulder by crashing into a line of stopped cars!

[HCM]

How many of the people you mention had the negligent dicharge doing a backflip while dancing in a nightclub? Add to that the fact that the gun was IWB in small of back without a holster. Of course anyone could have an accidental discharge. All are negligent to some degree but I betting your body in mid air with an unholstered gun IWB seems to me to be the pinnacle of carelessness. This FBI Agent redefined negligent gun handling. I do not see my statement as ignorant. It was informed. If you actually think the agent’s actions were acceptable on the basis that anyone can have an accident than I think that is a failure of judgement.

Acceptable no. And the consequences will be more severe if alcohol was involved but I’ve seen worse.

This might be a get fired level screw up but Felony / lifetime bar of firearms ownership ? No.

People who carry guns live their lives. I’m not, and never have been much of a bar person (nor am I fan of SOB carry) but the fact is, whether they drink or not, young men go to these places because young women are there. You remember being young ?

It certainly appears this Agent forgot he was carrying a gun and reacted quickly, though badly when things went wrong.

To answer your question none of those cited were dancing but Bill Jordan ND’ed while “dry” firing / coonfingering another Agents new revolver and killed a Border Patrol Agent in an adjoining office. He was a supervisor with 20 ish years on the job when their ocvurred.

Jeff Cooper, THE Creator of the four rules, shot his gas meter while “dry” firing. Why would you dryfire at something that may blow up your house ?

I will also reiterate, most cops are not gun people and many don’t even carry off duty so not sure where the comment about him opening up a fireams school came from. Cops gun skills and knowledge are a bell curve, the majority in the middle are competent to they level they are trained to and what they are familiar with or issued.

Letting your guard down by thinking you are “too good” or “too informed” to have an ND is a big step in the eventual cascade of failure.

[DAB]

at least Mas didn't do a back flip first.

[BigD]

at least Mas didn't do a back flip first.

You are breaking the tacit agreement not to talk about his ND. (At least I don’t think it was discussed here. Maybe I missed it)

Didn’t know Bill Jordan killed a fellow agent.

[olstyn]

This might be a get fired level screw up but Felony / lifetime bar of firearms ownership ? No.

What's the penalty for a normal citizen who negligently discharges a firearm and causes injury to an innocent bystander? That would appear to be what happened, so I would think that whatever the law in the state where this occurred prescribes should be applied, completely independent of this person's status as a federal agent. As to whether the bureau fires him, I would assume that's defined in bureau policy, and would be handled separately from whatever criminal charges are appropriate.

[Mas]

You are breaking the tacit agreement not to talk about his ND. (At least I don’t think it was discussed here. Maybe I missed it)

I was unnaware of any such agreement, tacit or otherwise. No problem discussing it. Hell, it happened.

[HCM]

What's the penalty for a normal citizen who negligently discharges a firearm and causes injury to an innocent bystander? That would appear to be what happened, so I would think that whatever the law in the state where this occurred prescribes should be applied, completely independent of this person's status as a federal agent. As to whether the bureau fires him, I would assume that's defined in bureau policy, and would be handled separately from whatever criminal charges are appropriate.

I’m not familiar with the specifics of Colorado law but in general, Circumstances dictate. There is no one size fits all answer. A big factor in both the criminal and admin investigations will be whether or not he had been drinking.


You are correct that there will be both a local criminal investigation and a seperate agency admin investigation. That would be true of any LEO in this situation. Admin wise even if it was completely unintentional, embarrassing the agency is always a factor.

I will say this, the video is pretty clear evidence this is unintentional. Unfortunately, I’ve seen attempts to pass off some very shady circumstances as NDs.

[HCM]

I was unnaware of any such agreement, tacit or otherwise. No problem discussing it. Hell, it happened.

And as the guy who brought it up, I will add you made a teachable moment of it and handled it an exemplary manner.

There, but for the grace of God, Go I.

[JHC]

I was unnaware of any such agreement, tacit or otherwise. No problem discussing it. Hell, it happened.

Your piece on "The look that doesn't see" was great and I shared that with family and friends. Thx for putting that out there.

[DAB]

well, as long as Mr. Ayoob is here, i object to the term "least unsafe" in his latest write up.

there is safe, and there is unsafe. Up was not safe.

but, since i don't have all sorts of fancy credentials, and am not nationally known for much of anything, it's pretty easy to dismiss me and my observations. others, with far more certificates on their walls have opined on this, and you can search and read their thoughts.

but UP was not a safe direction that day.

[FNFAN]

It was the backflip with the improperly secured gun (holster or not) that was most negligent. If you are going to do backflips with a gun you really ought to have a holster that offers reliable positive retention. He lost possession of his gun in a dance Stunt. If he had not done that the gun would never have hit the floor and he would not have had to retrieve it. No one would have been shot. I am done

If you're unprepared for a back-flip, you're unprepared for a physical altercation. I would modify your statement to: "if youre going to carry a gun you really ought to have a holster that offers reliable positive retention."

[LockedBreech]

Still laughing at Lebowski's "Agent Dipshit"


*warning, That Guy mode activated*

I can. If I start on top of a ladder and am not required to survive the attempt.

*That Guy mode deactivated*


In all seriousness, when you carry a gun constantly you forget you've got a gun on just like you aren't constantly aware of your wallet in your pocket or (if you wear glasses) glasses perched on your nose. You only notice when something's wrong. Like it hits the floor. My very first carry holster was...and Uncle Mike's sausage sack. I had ordered a "good" holster but wanted to carry my Taurus 85CH (shut up) before it could arrive. I sat down and the good ol' Uncle coughed my .38 out and onto the floor. The act of sitting was like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, only with a gun and shit holster. I was acutely aware of the gun for awhile since it was both novel and I'd already dropped it. These days, with good gear and decades of carrying, it's only noticeable in it's absence.

This entire post is gold.

[1942bull]

If you're unprepared for a back-flip, you're unprepared for a physical altercation. I would modify your statement to: "if youre going to carry a gun you really ought to have a holster that offers reliable positive retention."

Thank you. You said it much better than I did.

[GJM]

The whole thing reminds me of an analysis of an aviation accident, where there are multiple points along the error chain where the chain could have been broken and the accident avoided. Here was the chain.

Holster without sufficient retention, tough holster position for holstering.

Vigorous dancing.

Dropped gun.

Grabbing gun by trigger in haste to recover it.

Covering someone with the muzzle.

Almost any one break in that chain would have prevented the accident. The good news is he didn’t shoot himself in the back holstering, which is almost surprising given the rest of what happened.

[blues]

On the bright side, he didn't line up a bunch of Asian bar patrons at gunpoint in NYC and threaten to call Immigration because someone had the temerity to ignore the quarter he had placed on the pool table and play ahead of him.

(Yeah, I had that case early on in my career...lucky me. He didn't survive his probationary period.)

[critter]

There are two events.
Retention failure - which did not result in a discharge.
Handling failure - which did.

This is obviously a chain of events sequence to which others could be added (going to the party, perhaps alcohol, dancing, armed back flip while not engaged in a Kung Fu altercation, etc.)

The lesson I take from this, as a non-professional, is that if you do drop your weapon... STOP... focus... even if all eyes are on you. Seems it was the rush to grab the pistol while his brain was still in the "oh shit" phase which led to the mistake. He was off balance and grabbing for it.

Shows how easily bad shit can happen if you're not fully focused on the immediate task.

[txdpd]

Somewhere right now an FBI agent is breathing a sigh of relief. He was thinking of ways to explain to his boss about how he screwed up. Instead he now knows his opening line will be “Boss before you get too mad, at least I’m not as fucked up as that agent in the bar.”

[Lomshek]

Added video to OP. Was Agent Dipshit wearing a holster?

Quite a few concealed carry holsters are not certified as drunken back flip proof I think.

[TheNewbie]

Does the FBI have a list of approved holsters?

[Nephrology]

Oh, Denver...

[HCM]

Does the FBI have a list of approved holsters?

The only federal agency I'm aware of with a list of mandatory approved holsters on and off duty is CBP.

[LOKNLOD]

All part of a new recruiting campaign, focusing on the use of epic dance battles as a threat mitigation tool.

Soon, Magpul will produce an "Art of the Dynamic Dance Battle" DVD series co-produced by Nigel Lythgoe and Simon Cowell.

[HCM]

All part of a new recruiting campaign, focusing on the use of epic dance battles as a threat mitigation tool.

Soon, Magpul will produce an "Art of the Dynamic Dance Battle" DVD series co-produced by Nigel Lythgoe and Simon Cowell.

You mean like this ?


http://youtu.be/RWyoS8fppB0

[JohnO]

Dropped gun.

Grabbing gun by trigger in haste to recover it.



Yes!

This certainly appears to be a Plaxico Burris type incident. Only this time it wasn't a NFL star carrying Mexican wearing sweatpants and the gun totter shot someone else rather than himself.

[GJM]

Regardless of intentions, I bet many of us have had a handgun fall out of a holster. I did a few years ago, with of all things a Sig 320 in caliber .357 Sig, carried in a high quality Kydex appendix holster, when I encountered severe turbulence.

[11B10]

I just received the new book written by Retired Special Agent Ed Mireles, replete with a handwritten "Don, thank you for your support, etc." inscription on the inside cover. I haven't read but a handful of pages and it's very difficult to reconcile the FBI Mr. Mireles describes and believed in, with the one in this thread and today's world. I'm not so naive that I think the FBI was ever perfect, but it's incredibly sad that the agency has fallen so far in a bit over 30 years.

[TheNewbie]

Regardless of intentions, I bet many of us have had a handgun fall out of a holster. I did a few years ago, with of all things a Sig 320 in caliber .357 Sig, carried in a high quality Kydex appendix holster, when I encountered severe turbulence.

That must have been wicked turbulence.

[TC215]

I just received the new book written by Retired Special Agent Ed Mireles, replete with a handwritten "Don, thank you for your support, etc." inscription on the inside cover. I haven't read but a handful of pages and it's very difficult to reconcile the FBI Mr. Mireles describes and believed in, with the one in this thread and today's world. I'm not so naive that I think the FBI was ever perfect, but it's incredibly sad that the agency has fallen so far in a bit over 30 years.

The FBI has been in the news a lot the last couple of years because of shenanigans in DC. I have professional ties to the FBI, and have worked with them extensively, especially the last 6 or 7 years. They are, hands down, my favorite federal agency to work with (I work with DEA, ATF, HSI, IRS, etc. pretty regularly). They have their problems like anywhere else, and their paperwork/red tape/rules/etc takes a little while to get used to, but the guys and girls I work with are, for the most part, very squared away. Especially the agents with prior local-LE experience.

All that to say, you can’t judge an agency based on bosses and decisions made in DC. There are a lot of rank-and-file agents out in the field doing good work.

[Zincwarrior]

I imagine a non government agent would have been charged with something material being someone was actually shot.

[1911Nut]

DELETE - DUPLICATE

[psalms144.1]

What a horror show. I don't doubt there will be some discipline for this Agent, and he will almost certainly (and properly) get his pants sued off by the victim.

There are multiple teachable moments here, however - many of which have been hotly debated in the not too distant past here on PF - to whit:

1. Should I drink while I'm carrying concealed? Answer - watch this video
2. Should I carry without a holster (or a poorly constructed holster)? Answer - watch this video
3. Should I grab for my weapon if it's dropped? Answer - watch this video...

[BehindBlueI's]

I imagine a non government agent would have been charged with something material being someone was actually shot.

With the understanding laws vary state to state, I have, conservatively, dozens of examples I've personally worked that say otherwise. It's not criminal to have an accident. Fundamentally, there's nothing different between glancing down at your radio to change the station, running a red light, and breaking someone's leg vs having an unintended discharge picking a gun up and shooting them in the leg. You fucked up, you hurt someone, but without criminal intent and without reaching the legal standard of "reckless". Your remedy (as the injured party) is in civil court.

The exception is if you shoot your own child or leave a gun out and a child injures themselves or someone else. *IF* you're the child's parent, criminal neglect is often filed. If you are not the child's parent and do not have parental duties, that doesn't apply. (You can't 'neglect' a child that you don't have a legally duty to care for.)

Absent Neglect, you've got to hang your hat on Criminal Recklessness. That requires knowingly, intentionally, and/or recklessly. A simple screw up doesn't equate to recklessly. You've got to be handling it in a way that's outside accepted practices other than just accidentally touching it off. Waving it around, shooting at an unsafe backstop and hitting someone, etc.

[jellydonut]

This is an ignorant statement.

While these circumstances are unique, and there should, and likely will be some consequene for the Agent, any one can have an ND. The more you handle firearms the greater the odds. Many big name “expert” firearms trainers have had NDs, Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper, Mas Ayoob and Travis Haley to name a few. Should they all be barred from firearms ownership ?

We mitigate as best we can but in the real world it’s not a matter of if, but when and how bad.

To speak plainly, Shit happens.

None of said people had NDs into innocent people in a public area.

There is a lightyear of difference between an ND at the range and a drunken ND that ends up shooting someone else in a crowded public area.

[Zincwarrior]

With the understanding laws vary state to state, I have, conservatively, dozens of examples I've personally worked that say otherwise. It's not criminal to have an accident. Fundamentally, there's nothing different between glancing down at your radio to change the station, running a red light, and breaking someone's leg vs having an unintended discharge picking a gun up and shooting them in the leg. You fucked up, you hurt someone, but without criminal intent and without reaching the legal standard of "reckless". Your remedy (as the injured party) is in civil court.

The exception is if you shoot your own child or leave a gun out and a child injures themselves or someone else. *IF* you're the child's parent, criminal neglect is often filed. If you are not the child's parent and do not have parental duties, that doesn't apply. (You can't 'neglect' a child that you don't have a legally duty to care for.)

Absent Neglect, you've got to hang your hat on Criminal Recklessness. That requires knowingly, intentionally, and/or recklessly. A simple screw up doesn't equate to recklessly. You've got to be handling it in a way that's outside accepted practices other than just accidentally touching it off. Waving it around, shooting at an unsafe backstop and hitting someone, etc.

How many were shootings? This not a car wreck. This is a negligent shooting.

I would pay good bucks that nothing significant happens to this guy. He may be sued but he will not be charged and he will not be fired.

If it were Joe Shmo, yes something would happen to him.

[TC215]

How many were shootings? This not a car wreck. This is a negligent shooting.

I would pay good bucks that nothing significant happens to this guy. He may be sued but he will not be charged and he will not be fired.

If it were Joe Shmo, yes something would happen to him.

You make a lot of assumptions.

BBI has investigated a LOT of shootings. I’ve investigated one or two. I’ve seen people charged for accidental shootings. I’ve seen people not charged for accidental shootings. It depends on the circumstances. If the agent in this incident was drinking, I would imagine he’ll get charged.

I know of FBI agents getting fired for much less than this. Rule number 1 for working at the Burea is don’t embarrass the Bureau.

[HCM]

None of said people had NDs into innocent people in a public area.

There is a lightyear of difference between an ND at the range and a drunken ND that ends up shooting someone else in a crowded public area.

Read up thread. Jordan’s ND was in an office and KILLED a fellow Agent. As for Cooper, last time I checked ranges did not have gas meters. He was lucky he didn’t blow up his house.

Also you are presuming the Agent in the video was drunk because he was in a bar, but there is no evidence one way or another. I am sure it will be addressed in one of the investigations.

[Zincwarrior]

You make a lot of assumptions.

BBI has investigated a LOT of shootings. I’ve investigated one or two. I’ve seen people charged for accidental shootings. I’ve seen people not charged for accidental shootings. It depends on the circumstances. If the agent in this incident was drinking, I would imagine he’ll get charged.

I know of FBI agents getting fired for much less than this. Rule number 1 for working at the Burea is don’t embarrass the Bureau.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. The FBI has said they are not sure what action they are taking. He has not be arrested or charged yet.

The local police have not charged him

In a civilian situation I am convinced he'd have been in jail already awaiting his bondsman.

[El Cid]

None of said people had NDs into innocent people in a public area.

There is a lightyear of difference between an ND at the range and a drunken ND that ends up shooting someone else in a crowded public area.

Did they release a report with his blood alcohol level? If not you should offer your services to the state police for DUI enforcement. Your ability to determine how much a person had to drink from an internet video is impressive!

Was he drinking? Possibly. Can a drunk person stick a landing like that after a flip? Highly unlikely. He fucked up IMO but I’ll wait for the full report before talking trash.

[John Hearne]

I be curious to know if the agent's dominant hand was the same one he tried to pick up the gun with. Everyone thinks they can switch sides without any work but swapping hands with your pistol dramatically increases your odds of an ND.

[TC215]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. The FBI has said they are not sure what action they are taking. He has not be arrested or charged yet.

The local police have not charged him

In a civilian situation I am convinced he'd have been in jail already awaiting his bondsman.

Odd that the FBI is waiting for the criminal investigation to be completed before making a decision.

[txdpd]

I imagine a non government agent would have been charged with something material being someone was actually shot.

When an innocent someone is actually shot and injured by a known offender, under these types of circumstances, the victim controls whether or not charges are filed. I wasn’t there so I’m not going to pretend to know what was said between the investigating officer(s) and victim, but if the victim wanted the charge filed it would have been.

[HCM]

How many were shootings? This not a car wreck. This is a negligent shooting.

I would pay good bucks that nothing significant happens to this guy. He may be sued but he will not be charged and he will not be fired.

If it were Joe Shmo, yes something would happen to him.

Oh, something will happen to him. It will take some time but if you think he is walking away from this Scott Free you are extremely naive.

He faces both a local criminal investigation and an internal administrative investigation. Even if no criminal charges result, he is on admin duty or leave until that is cleared up. Then the admin investigation kicks in. Once criminal charges are off the table they can compel a statement for admin use via Garrity. If he refuses to give a statement they can fire him. If he lies they fire him. If he was drinking, they can fire him. Plus as TC215 said he has committed the bureau’s cardinal sin - embarrassing the Bureau. My guess is he will get fired if he doesn’t resign first.

Whether he gets fired or not he will likely face a civil lawsuit.

If by some miracle he doesn’t get fired, the defense would bring up this video anytime one of his cases went to court so his career options would be severely curtailed.

I think BBI’s point is negligent and accidental shootings resulting in death and serious injury are regular, though thankfully not frequent occurrences. Having investigated some ND and AD shootings I agree with TC 215 that circumstances matter and whether or not the Agent had been drinking will be a significant factor in the outcome.

[txdpd]

Odd that the FBI is waiting for the criminal investigation to be completed before making a decision.

Not really, while I don’t have a clue about how Garrity protections given for a federal administrative investigation would effect a state criminal case, I don’t think anyone at the bureau is going to step on their dicks to find out either and possibly throw him a lifeline.

[HCM]

Odd that the FBI is waiting for the criminal investigation to be completed before making a decision.

Garrity (Garrity v. New Jersey,) applies to Federal LEOs.

For more info on Garrity and compelled statements: https://www.fletc.gov/audio/interrogating-government-employees-mp3

[El Cid]

Not really, while I don’t have a clue about how Garrity protections given for a federal administrative investigation would effect a state criminal case, I don’t think anyone at the bureau is going to step on their dicks to find out either and possibly throw him a lifeline.

I feel confident TC was being sarcastic.

[TC215]

Not really, while I don’t have a clue about how Garrity protections given for a federal administrative investigation would effect a state criminal case, I don’t think anyone at the bureau is going to step on their dicks to find out either and possibly throw him a lifeline.


I feel confident TC was being sarcastic.

Yep.

[BehindBlueI's]

How many were shootings? This not a car wreck. This is a negligent shooting.


All of them. The car wreck thing was an analogy. I work in a very busy Homicide & Robbery office. I do not investigate car crashes unless it was an intentional act and the victim is in critical condition or worse.


In a civilian situation I am convinced he'd have been in jail already awaiting his bondsman.

By all means, don't let my experience in an office that investigates 100+ unintended discharges resulting in injury or death each year override your imagination.*

*edit, this figure does include those who've shot or injured themselves accidentally, which is the more usual outcome. However I've worked shot friends, shot family, shot strangers, shot kids, kids finding guns and shooting other kids, kids shooting themselves, and basically every fucking possible outcome of bullets leaving a gun when we'd rather they didn't.

[Lester Polfus]

Your piece on "The look that doesn't see" was great and I shared that with family and friends. Thx for putting that out there.

Mas I also found your account of "the look that didn't see" helpful. I've found myself clearing guns by rote, and that needs to change.

I appreciate you manning up and writing that article. If there is any positive outcome, maybe you reminded some of us to to look and ACTUALLY see, and one of us won't wind up shooting our spouse or kid.

[Lester Polfus]

All of them. The car wreck thing was an analogy. I work in a very busy Homicide & Robbery office. I do not investigate car crashes unless it was an intentional act and the victim is in critical condition or worse.



By all means, don't let my experience in an office that investigates 100+ unintended discharges resulting in injury or death each year override your imagination.*

*edit, this figure does include those who've shot or injured themselves accidentally, which is the more usual outcome. However I've worked shot friends, shot family, shot strangers, shot kids, kids finding guns and shooting other kids, kids shooting themselves, and basically every fucking possible outcome of bullets leaving a gun when we'd rather they didn't.

This is one of the reasons why this forum is different from all the other gun forums on the internet. I'm not sure some folks understand that.

[Lester Polfus]

Also, regarding the internal investigation waiting until the criminal proceedings are concluded, there are other issues besides Garrity. When I saw this happen at my old agency, it could take two different tracks.

If the person was actually convicted of a crime, the employment decision was simple. "You were convicted of a crime. You're fired." That was pretty straightforward. In fact, it would have been against the law for us to continue to employ that person as a police officer in the case of many potential crimes.

If they weren't charged (or convicted) then it would have been a policy/fitness for duty investigation.

[HCM]

Not really, while I don’t have a clue about how Garrity protections given for a federal administrative investigation would effect a state criminal case, I don’t think anyone at the bureau is going to step on their dicks to find out either and possibly throw him a lifeline.

Nope. They would have to give him a Kalkines warning and I don’t see that happening.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalkines_warning

[DMF13]

. . . so not sure where the comment about him opening up a fireams school came from.Perhaps he was thinking of Lance Burton? However, to be fair, Burton's schools is billed as a "martial arts" school.

[Dagga Boy]

Don’t go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things. Sometimes the stupid people is you. There are times in life when not carrying a gun at all is the smart move...this would be one of them.

[DMF13]

Quite a few concealed carry holsters are not certified as drunken back flip proof I think.Too many. My biggest gripe with the vast majority of the holsters, is the inability to tighten the tension down to the point the gun has to ripped out out with a Herculean effort. Getting the gun out of the holster is NOT a finesse move. While I'm not going to be doing backflips (intentionally), I do want my gun staying put while running, jumping, fighting, etc, unless I make a concerted effort to pull the darn thing out.

[DMF13]

I be curious to know if the agent's dominant hand was the same one he tried to pick up the gun with. Everyone thinks they can switch sides without any work but swapping hands with your pistol dramatically increases your odds of an ND.
I'd really like to see the data on that. Not being a jerk, I sincerely would like the data that supports it, for use in training others.

[DMF13]

Odd that the FBI is waiting for the criminal investigation to be completed before making a decision.I don't find that odd at all. They will want to dot all their "i's" and cross all their "t's" before making any decisions. There is no rush, so why act rashly?

[Hambo]

The thread title reminds of TGS avatar.

No matter what the legal consequences are, the agent has probably screwed his career. Large agencies have ways of making you wish they had fired you.

[LittleLebowski]

http://66.media.tumblr.com/02ed29e3e30c70c57f1c82d94fed0d0e/tumblr_og300f01ee1spy7ono1_400.gif

[HCountyGuy]

Well when the FBI gets done with him, this guy has a bright future in the holster development industry!

“We here at Brand X holsters have placed an emphasis on performance! Our holsters will retain your firearm in even the most athletic circumstances!” (Cut to video of Agent Dipshit doing numerous backflips in their testing lab)

[Mr Pink]

Too soon?? ;)

[blues]

I don't find that odd at all. They will want to dot all their "i's" and cross all their "t's" before making any decisions. There is no rush, so why act rashly?

The comment was clearly meant tongue in cheek.

[blues]

http://66.media.tumblr.com/02ed29e3e30c70c57f1c82d94fed0d0e/tumblr_og300f01ee1spy7ono1_400.gif

That teal is the real deal.

[Bucky]

Someone has to say it, "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to do a back flip with a holstered Glock." (Had to be a Fo-tee)

[TCinVA]

So just this weekend we have two videos of situations where a DA pistol likely would have prevented gunshot wounds.

Regarding this specific incident:

There's a bunch of learning potential in this incident.

It's really easy to dismiss this one because the agent was doing some stupid shit that resulted in his gun becoming public. Don't try to do hand stands or white-boy twerk and your gun is a lot less likely to flop to the ground. Maybe adjust the tension on your holster so it will actually hold on to the pistol if you are in something other than a vertical position. These are the low hanging fruit.

The thing is, though, one need not be doing dumb shit for their gun to become public. I've had a holster break on me in the middle of a supermarket in such a way that my pistol very nearly became public.

When your concealed weapon is now on the floor and you sure as hell didn't put it there, it would be fair to say that you would be experiencing a sudden onset of stress.

The thing about human beings is that our OH SHIT monkey brain gets to work the controls. It gets to work the controls in highly stressful situations that we aren't carefully prepared for. Like maybe our gun suddenly becoming public.

John Hearne pointed out something incredibly useful: Dude grabbed the gun weak hand. Likely because he was in full OH SHIT mode and the monkey brain had one concern: get that gun back, NOW. How many of us practice picking our pistol up from the ground weak handed in a safe and controlled manner? If you are a training junkie like some of us, you've done it some in class settings. Some of us may have even done it under the stress of a timer and an audience. How many reps of that would you estimate that the FBI agent had?

The bad things happen when human hands being run by a mind that isn't running at full capacity touches the gun. Either because we are not handling the weapon with attention and intention due to complacency and/or fatigue, or because we're under some unfamiliar stress and our monkey brain is at the controls trying to do something that is unfamiliar to us.

Some engineering decisions bring with them real consequences when actual human beings in this state handle guns. Some guns have a larger margin for error in handling mistakes without getting a loud noise than others. Glocks have one of the narrowest margins for error of any handgun on the market and yet they're issued like candy to minimally trained people across the country. "It's a training issue!" only goes so far when we examine the realities of human beings handling deadly instruments. Maybe we need to actually start talking about those realities more and the role equipment selection plays in reducing or increasing the risks.

I mean, let's break out the hard to swallow pills here: This FBI agent was better trained than the vast majority of people issued a sidearm in the country and certainly better trained than the vast majority of honest citizens packing a sidearm for personal defense.

I want it to be abundantly clear, here, that I'm not shitting on these guys: But it seems to me that if people like Mas and Chuck P. can experience an unintentional discharge with a firearm, I sure as fuck can. And it can happen to me the very next time I handle a firearm.

I saw this video and laughed like everybody else at first. Then I watched it a couple more times and started to really think about what I was seeing and it scares the shit out of me. I even had something of a nightmare last night where I dreamed I unintentionally discharged a shotgun in a class setting.

Personally these incidents make me start looking really hard at how and why I'm doing things.

[Schmetallurgy]

When an innocent someone is actually shot and injured by a known offender, under these types of circumstances, the victim controls whether or not charges are filed. I wasn’t there so I’m not going to pretend to know what was said between the investigating officer(s) and victim, but if the victim wanted the charge filed it would have been.

What would the charge be? Doesn't assault require recklessness at minimum? And discharge offenses require intent, correct? If he was drinking, I would see UCW intoxication being workable, but otherwise... could you expand on that?

[farscott]

Quite a few concealed carry holsters are not certified as drunken back flip proof I think.

Motorcycle and car accidents are great tests of a holster's retention capacity and an unfortunate fact of modern life for concealed carriers. When I had to lay down my bike (my fault as I totally misjudged a turn with gravel on the road), a revolver (S&W M442) in my front pocket in a Kramer pocket holster ended up on the ground. I was amazed that the gun came out of my pocket. The 1911-pattern pistol in a Sparks VM-2 was still in the holster.

No dance tricks are needed for a gun to make an unwanted appearance.

[BigD]

The only federal agency I'm aware of with a list of mandatory approved holsters on and off duty is CBP.

Mine used to - and it was basically Safariland plus the usual leather makers (Fobus was banned), but now that there are so many holster makers the Firearms Unit approves each holster on a case by case basis. You must qualify with a holster first, so they have a chance to inspect it first.

The Raven trigger guard things and the Serpa are not approved, and Fobus remains banned. Everything else seems to receive approval. They might ixnay some flimsy IWB holster but I'm not sure.

[blues]

Motorcycle and car accidents are great tests of a holster's retention capacity and an unfortunate fact of modern life for concealed carriers. When I had to lay down my bike (my fault as I totally misjudged a turn with gravel on the road), a revolver (S&W M442) in my front pocket in a Kramer pocket holster ended up on the ground. I was amazed that the gun came out of my pocket. The 1911-pattern pistol in a Sparks VM-2 was still in the holster.

No dance tricks are needed for a gun to make an unwanted appearance.

When I was sprinting after my dog a couple years back and took a header on gravel, my Glock, perfectly secured in a DSG AIWB holster was seemingly the only thing that wasn't torn or banged up when I made my way to the ER for multiple stitches in both hands. Torso had plenty of bruises and abrasions but the holster and gun were completely unmarked.

[Zincwarrior]

Someone has to say it, "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to do a back flip with a holstered Glock." (Had to be a Fo-tee)

I am just trying to envision the number of weeks to recover from even attempting this on my part, including fun filled crawls to the bathroom from the bed because my back is so messed up...

[Duelist]

That teal is the real deal.

Except that he’s a Mallard.

[Duelist]

What would the charge be? Doesn't assault require recklessness at minimum? And discharge offenses require intent, correct? If he was drinking, I would see UCW intoxication being workable, but otherwise... could you expand on that?

Negligence comes to mind.

[Rex G]

“The look that does not see.” Been there; done that. DA revolver. Safe direction and safe backstop saved the day.

Lesson: SEE, while THINKING. Do not just look. I will often add a FEEL check to the visual check.

[John Hearne]

I'd really like to see the data on that. Not being a jerk, I sincerely would like the data that supports it, for use in training others.

Peer reviewed, published in journal Applied Ergonomics:
http://www.forcescience.org/assets/futheranalysis.pdf

(Nobody else on PF should read this as they concluded that DA triggers didn't seem to do much to mitigate UD concerns)

[Totem Polar]

I am just trying to envision the number of weeks to recover from even attempting this on my part, including fun filled crawls to the bathroom from the bed because my back is so messed up...

God will never give you a problem you can’t handle. I’m therefore pretty sure you won’t be tasked with recovering from voluntary dance floor backflips.

#churchofobvious (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=churchofobvious)


Speaking of Mas, I’m pretty sure his tip about stepping on a gun that’s been dropped to retain control of it—albeit in different context—would have been a good... first step for this guy.

[Doc_Glock]

Some engineering decisions bring with them real consequences when actual human beings in this state handle guns. Some guns have a larger margin for error in handling mistakes without getting a loud noise than others. Glocks have one of the narrowest margins for error of any handgun on the market and yet they're issued like candy to minimally trained people across the country. "It's a training issue!" only goes so far when we examine the realities of human beings handling deadly instruments. Maybe we need to actually start talking about those realities more and the role equipment selection plays in reducing or increasing the risks.

I hear what you are saying, but you are singling out Glock unfairly. We also have the M&P, Sig P320, VP9, PPQ and other fully tensioned striker designs of the future that arguably have narrower safety margins.

The gun did what it was designed to do: 1. survive a drop without discharging, 2. reliably discharge when the trigger is pulled. Your post highlights the place of human factors and how a gun should be engineered to account for those factors that we have gone back and forth many times about on this forum. Make it easy to shoot and it is easier to negligently handle, but takes minimal training to bring a lowest common denominator up to speed as far as shooting things goes. Make it harder to shoot and it is a bit safer, but more difficult and more time consuming to train the same level of proficiency for the masses. I know I train a lot of non-Glock pistols in various actions and find it hard to improve on Glock with anything else as far as pure shooting performance goes. But maybe we are focused on the wrong things and the focus shouldn't necessarily be on shooting performance. At least in LE.

[TCinVA]

I hear what you are saying, but you are singling out Glock unfairly. We also have the M&P, Sig P320, VP9, PPQ and other fully tensioned striker designs of the future that arguably have narrower safety margins.

None of those other guns requires a trigger pull to disassemble...and for good reason.

The Glock's margin for error in a common and necessary handling procedure is narrower than those other pistols.

[underhook]

The John Travolta draw?

[Doc_Glock]

Peer reviewed, published in journal Applied Ergonomics:
http://www.forcescience.org/assets/futheranalysis.pdf

(Nobody else on PF should read this as they concluded that DA triggers didn't seem to do much to mitigate UD concerns)

"...nearly 75% of UDs occurred during routine tasks (e.g., clearing, function check/attempted dry fire,
holstering/unholstering, maintenance, storing/moving) and unfamiliar tasks (e.g., arm/hand
crossover, equipment re-location, using an unfamiliar firearm, non-dominate hand transfers, and
using new holsters or belts)."

[Gadfly]

Having seen Agents f--k up in my office, I can see a couple of possible administrative outcomes for this guy (assuming no criminal conviction).

A) If he is "that guy" and always a problem, a complainer, a slug... he is fired. B) If he is a worker, volunteers for details, makes cases, and just happened to screw up this once... he will be be taken care of by being transferred to a non-gun position. Something like an Intel Research Specialist or Seized Property Custodian. He loses the gun, but keep his Medical and some of his retirement. He wont make as much as before, but at least he has a job. I have seen one or two taken care of around here, and many more fired.

------------------------------
As far as charging him, just like many have said here, there was obviously zero intent to harm, so that type of charge is out. But there is a chance for criminal negligence / reckless behavior...

Some definitions from Colorado's Penal Code that are relative to the discussion at hand:

(3) “Criminal negligence”.  A person acts with criminal negligence when, through a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise, he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.

(5) “Intentionally” or “with intent”.  All offenses defined in this code in which the mental culpability requirement is expressed as “intentionally” or “with intent” are declared to be specific intent offenses.  A person acts “intentionally” or “with intent” when his conscious objective is to cause the specific result proscribed by the statute defining the offense.  It is immaterial to the issue of specific intent whether or not the result actually occurred.

(6) “Knowingly” or “willfully”.  All offenses defined in this code in which the mental culpability requirement is expressed as “knowingly” or “willfully” are declared to be general intent crimes.  A person acts “knowingly” or “willfully” with respect to conduct or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware that his conduct is of such nature or that such circumstance exists.  A person acts “knowingly” or “willfully”, with respect to a result of his conduct, when he is aware that his conduct is practically certain to cause the result.

(8) “Recklessly”.  A person acts recklessly when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.

And THE ACTUAL STATUTES:

C.R.S. 18-12-107.5
18-12-107.5. Illegal discharge of a firearm - penalty
(1) Any person who knowingly or recklessly discharges a firearm into any dwelling or any other building or occupied structure, or into any motor vehicle occupied by any person, commits the offense of illegal discharge of a firearm.
(2) It shall not be an offense under this section if the person who discharges a firearm in violation of subsection (1) of this section is a peace officer as described in section 16-2.5-101, C.R.S., acting within the scope of such officer's authority and in the performance of such officer's duties.
(3) Illegal discharge of a firearm is a class 5 felony.


18-12-106. Prohibited use of weapons
(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:
(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or
(b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or
(d) The person has in his or her possession a firearm while the person is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in section 18-18-102 (5). Possession of a permit issued under section 18-12-105.1, as it existed prior to its repeal, or possession of a permit or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article is no defense to a violation of this subsection (1).


Did he "knowingly" discharge the firearm? I think we can all agree that is a "NO".
Did he "recklessly" discharge a firearm? Is picking up your dropped pistol causing a "substantial and unjustifiable risk"? What is more risky to the public, picking up the firearm OR leaving it on the floor in a room full of unknown patrons? Was it "a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise" to snatch up the pistol? Was the agent "under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance"?

These are the million dollar questions at hand. If he was drunk, he is screwed.

[BigD]

The thread title reminds of TGS avatar.

No matter what the legal consequences are, the agent has probably screwed his career. Large agencies have ways of making you wish they had fired you.

While this went extremely viral so he's never going to live it down, and he probably has screwed his career - especially if he was drinking - ...but other times the "f*&^ up and move up" applies."

Some have theorized that when so-and-so appears on the promotion list, the powers-that-be recognize the name but don't remember from where, so so-and-so gets promoted. Of course the only reason he had name recognition is because he was that guy in the past.

Just to be clear, this probably doesn't apply to this guy as his screw up will be too notorious to forget.

[Schmetallurgy]

Negligence comes to mind.

In Texas (referencing TXDPD's comments), I don't see negligence listed as an applicable mens rea for assault, and even then the actual swipe at the gun causing the discharge under a moment of surprise might be a tough sell, in the strict view of the law, as a criminally negligent act, as it could be argued that the critical details of his grab for the gun weren't truly deliberate due to the surprise & novelty of the circumstance. As for the anticipated vs actual retention of the holster, that gets into a gray area that could make negligence a tough argument, but recklessness seems virtually disproven by the very fact that the gun fell out of the holster, unless you believed he expected that to be likely, satisfying the requirement for a willful disregard for a probable outcome, which is still a step removed from the actual cause of the discharge, itself certainly not reckless.

So I'm curious to see an example of the minimum threshold which would allow a charge for accidentally injuring someone with an "ND" when legal negligence isn't clear let alone a sufficient basis for an assault charge.

ETA: Keep in mind, even discounting the possibility of alcohol, I'm not making excuses for the guy's choices of equipment, carry method, dance moves, or possible lack of consideration/training given to handling a dropped weapon. I'm feeling pretty critical of all of that, personally, especially given his profession and access to relevant info circles. But criminal culpability is a next level of judgement and consequence, and I'm always curious about how these things play out in practice relative to how the law is written.

[TGS]

Having seen Agents f--k up in my office, I can see a couple of possible administrative outcomes for this guy (assuming no criminal conviction).

A) If he is "that guy" and always a problem, a complainer, a slug... he is fired. B) If he is a worker, volunteers for details, makes cases, and just happened to screw up this once... he will be be taken care of by being transferred to a non-gun position. Something like an Intel Research Specialist or Seized Property Custodian. He loses the gun, but keep his Medical and some of his retirement. He wont make as much as before, but at least he has a job. I have seen one or two taken care of around here, and many more fired.

------------------------------
As far as charging him, just like many have said here, there was obviously zero intent to harm, so that type of charge is out. But there is a chance for criminal negligence / reckless behavior...

Some definitions from Colorado's Penal Code that are relative to the discussion at hand:

(3) “Criminal negligence”.  A person acts with criminal negligence when, through a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise, he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.

(5) “Intentionally” or “with intent”.  All offenses defined in this code in which the mental culpability requirement is expressed as “intentionally” or “with intent” are declared to be specific intent offenses.  A person acts “intentionally” or “with intent” when his conscious objective is to cause the specific result proscribed by the statute defining the offense.  It is immaterial to the issue of specific intent whether or not the result actually occurred.

(6) “Knowingly” or “willfully”.  All offenses defined in this code in which the mental culpability requirement is expressed as “knowingly” or “willfully” are declared to be general intent crimes.  A person acts “knowingly” or “willfully” with respect to conduct or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware that his conduct is of such nature or that such circumstance exists.  A person acts “knowingly” or “willfully”, with respect to a result of his conduct, when he is aware that his conduct is practically certain to cause the result.

(8) “Recklessly”.  A person acts recklessly when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.

And THE ACTUAL STATUTES:

C.R.S. 18-12-107.5
18-12-107.5. Illegal discharge of a firearm - penalty
(1) Any person who knowingly or recklessly discharges a firearm into any dwelling or any other building or occupied structure, or into any motor vehicle occupied by any person, commits the offense of illegal discharge of a firearm.
(2) It shall not be an offense under this section if the person who discharges a firearm in violation of subsection (1) of this section is a peace officer as described in section 16-2.5-101, C.R.S., acting within the scope of such officer's authority and in the performance of such officer's duties.
(3) Illegal discharge of a firearm is a class 5 felony.


18-12-106. Prohibited use of weapons
(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:
(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or
(b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or
(d) The person has in his or her possession a firearm while the person is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in section 18-18-102 (5). Possession of a permit issued under section 18-12-105.1, as it existed prior to its repeal, or possession of a permit or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article is no defense to a violation of this subsection (1).


Did he "knowingly" discharge the firearm? I think we can all agree that is a "NO".
Did he "recklessly" discharge a firearm? Is picking up your dropped pistol causing a "substantial and unjustifiable risk"? What is more risky to the public, picking up the firearm OR leaving it on the floor in a room full of unknown patrons? Was it "a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise" to snatch up the pistol? Was the agent "under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance"?

These are the million dollar questions at hand. If he was drunk, he is screwed.

Thanks for framing the legal issue correctly and clearly.

We need more of this, and less of the blind vitriol seen by a handful of other people in this thread.

[ubervic]

I don't know guys. For me, this scenario is not as much about giving the guy grief for the the ND itself but for the chain of decisions that took place to set the stage for the increased likelihood of an ND outcome.

It's likely that alcohol gave this gent a whole lotta confidence and/or lack of judgment, but WOWZERS. First he's doing a serious rendition of the Spaghetti-Leg Boogie-Loo, and then he decides to add a gosh-darn back flip. DAMN. Maybe he's into pakcour?

I can see the memo being routed through DOJ right now: All agents are hereby instructed to refrain from extravagant dance moves and aerial acrobatics unless you are performing them in the privacy of your own home. Strongly recommended that agents download & store-away weapons prior to engaging in The Watusi.

[Mark D]

I saw this video and laughed like everybody else at first. Then I watched it a couple more times and started to really think about what I was seeing and it scares the shit out of me...

Personally these incidents make me start looking really hard at how and why I'm doing things.

I feel the same way. It was the other video, of the Glock ND while holstered, that really made me reconsider my decisions. I shove a loaded Glock into my belt several times a day. And yes, I use a quality holster (DSG or JMCK), and a gadget, and a stock trigger, and I "look" the gun into the hoister, and thrust my hips forward, etc. But that video made me realize I could still shoot myself in the groin, despite following all best practices.

[FNFAN]

That teal is the real deal.

Well, it's a mallard, but he brings it home like Brian Allard.

[blues]

Except that he’s a Mallard.

Your critique that it is a Mallard is valid.

But it didn't rhyme. I claim literary license.

[Gadfly]

Thanks for framing the legal issue correctly and clearly.

We need more of this, and less of the blind vitriol seen by a handful of other people in this thread.

Yeah, arguing "what Ifs" is just pissing into the wind without some reference of what the ACTUAL LAW is for that jurisdiction.

I personally see it as an accident. Zero intent. And for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, his dance moves are not germane to the statute at hand. The discharge is the offense, the only aggravating factor in law is the introduction of intoxicants, not dace moves, holster style, etc. Was his rapid reach for the pistol a "conscious disregard [of] a substantial and unjustifiable risk"? I would say that is a stretch.

Is the mere act of picking up your dropped pistol and unjustifiable risk, OR is it justifiable in the fact the such a large uncontrolled and un-screened crowd presented a GREATER risk than rapidly retrieving it? THIS is exactly what defense lawyers get paid to argue.

Who knows what will happen? And IF it gets charged, what side will a jury take?
A lot of this depends on if they can prove he had even a drop of alcohol.

This guys world as he knew it is done either way. One stupid slip could do anyone of us in.


SIDE NOTE:
An academy instructor told us to "live your lives and careers so as NOT to end up as a cautionary training video".
It is still good advice.

[hufnagel]

Mas et.al.: with regards to the article several have mentioned, can you or someone else provide a link? It appears to be something I should read.

Thanks!

[JodyH]

Long ago I passed on a little bit of wisdom to my now 15 year old boy.
"Never willingly place your ass above your head."
It's like playing Russian roulette, you can get away with it 5 out of 6 times, but that 1 out of 6 is gonna hurt you bad.
That rule has served me well for 48 years and I hope it serves him well.

[Baldanders]

Long ago I passed on a little bit of wisdom to my now 15 year old boy.
"Never willingly place your ass above your head."
It's like playing Russian roulette, you can get away with it 5 out of 6 times, but that 1 out of 6 is gonna hurt you bad.
That rule has served me well for 48 years and I hope it serves him well.

Thanks for the new rule for life!

[Bucky]

I hear what you are saying, but you are singling out Glock unfairly. We also have the M&P, Sig P320, VP9, PPQ and other fully tensioned striker designs of the future that arguably have narrower safety margins.


With the Sig P320, it depends on when it was made. Earlier models would like have been out of battery and not have been able to be fired when he picked up the gun,,,, due to it having already discharched. ;)

As suggested earlier, I wonder if even a DA/SA gun (assuming no safety or safety off) would have actually prevented this? Much would depend on how much pressure was placed on the trigger as it was being retrieved. It certainly would have required a more deliberate pull then a partially, or fully tensioned striker fired gun.

[underhook]

"...nearly 75% of UDs occurred during routine tasks (e.g., clearing, function check/attempted dry fire,
holstering/unholstering, maintenance, storing/moving) and unfamiliar tasks (e.g., arm/hand
crossover, equipment re-location, using an unfamiliar firearm, non-dominate hand transfers, and
using new holsters or belts)."

The sample size in the paper is small. Just 171 incidents.

I like that the authors will have to add a new location to their next paper - dance floor.

[Mas]

Mas et.al.: with regards to the article several have mentioned, can you or someone else provide a link? It appears to be something I should read.

Thanks!
Hufnagel, it is on my blog: www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/massadayoob . Initial comments in 5/23/18 entry, followup including links to commentary/analysis in 5/28/18 entry.

[blues]

Hufnagel, it is on my blog: www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/massadayoob . Initial comments in 5/23/18 entry, followup including links to commentary/analysis in 5/28/18 entry.

Thank you, Mas, both for the link and the honesty and willingness to share the event with all of us.

[TheNewbie]

I like when people say "only an idiot can accidentally shoot a gun". I've yet to meet a human that was not capable of having a moment of idiocy.

[Totem Polar]

If any here have yet to read Mas’s article and follow up—as well as Paul Carlson’s (who many of us have met) take on the same—I’d recommend doing so. It’s a different ball of wax from Dancy McFeeby; the circumstances of the Mag-40 event are complex, and the lessons applicable to any of us who train in any regular capacity. JMO.

[txdpd]

What would the charge be? Doesn't assault require recklessness at minimum? And discharge offenses require intent, correct? If he was drinking, I would see UCW intoxication being workable, but otherwise... could you expand on that?

In Texas that would be Aggravated Assault deadly weapon and that would be for recklessly causing injury or SBI with a deadly weapon. The victim got shot and if it wasn’t consensual, makes it Aggravated Assault. The offender in the process of Picking up a firearm off the ground, pulled the trigger and discharged said firearm, accidentally or whatever, was reckless. That the firearm was pointed at someone when it was discharged, and caused bodily injury, makes an assaultive offense. Does that warrant a criminal prosecution? Not my department. If the victim wants to file charges that’s his right, if he declines that’s his right as well. Bottom line if the victim wants to press charges, the police can generate the offense, do the investigation, and leave all the opinion BS to the lawyers.

[HCM]

I’m just gonna leave this here.....


http://youtu.be/nxyd1eyRTCU

[Gadfly]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/e519ac1e96ff956f6fee8894b3b85f28.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/741cf0f961f78336da77929253608905.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/d2f157284a6d6608cf0cbcb9b1f013c7.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/97e8511afbcb10a40f390a4f04c1d409.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Schmetallurgy]

In Texas that would be Aggravated Assault deadly weapon and that would be for recklessly causing injury or SBI with a deadly weapon. The victim got shot and if it wasn’t consensual, makes it Aggravated Assault. The offender in the process of Picking up a firearm off the ground, pulled the trigger and discharged said firearm, accidentally or whatever, was reckless. That the firearm was pointed at someone when it was discharged, and caused bodily injury, makes an assaultive offense. Does that warrant a criminal prosecution? Not my department. If the victim wants to file charges that’s his right, if he declines that’s his right as well. Bottom line if the victim wants to press charges, the police can generate the offense, do the investigation, and leave all the opinion BS to the lawyers.

That doesn't seem to reasonably meet the threshold for recklessness as he didn't point the weapon at anyone (it fell to that position and needed to be retrieved) and for other reasons I explained in my subsequent post. Even if the injured party wants to press charges, doesn't the same requirement exist for probable cause that all the necessary elements of the crime exist in order to arrest?

[HCM]

That doesn't seem to reasonably meet the threshold for recklessness as he didn't point the weapon at anyone (it fell to that position and needed to be retrieved) and for other reasons I explained in my subsequent post. Even if the injured party wants to press charges, doesn't the same requirement exist for probable cause that all the necessary elements of the crime exist in order to arrest?

A more realistic charge in TX would be Misdemeanor Deadly Conduct.


a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily injury.

[underhook]

If you time it from the gun breaking leather to firing it's 2 seconds. Not bad for a concealed draw.

[TGS]

A more realistic charge in TX would be Misdemeanor Deadly Conduct.

A bunch of cops talking shop on their own time about how to charge another cop......

Yet we are supposedly some monolithic body of corruption that won't ever be charged, gets off easy, covers for each other, or shirks responsibility, according to some P-F.com members.

#getfucked (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=getfucked) .

The only thing worse than running afoul of the law is being a cop and running afoul of the law. You will be fucking hull-dragged by both the system and the culture within your agency, and god help you if you serve hard time.

[Schmetallurgy]

A more realistic charge in TX would be Misdemeanor Deadly Conduct.

Still, that recklessness component seems hard to support. I could see perhaps that hinging on whether or not there was some nominal passive retention to the holster or if it was pretty obvious it wouldn't retain the gun upside down.

"If it's Uncle Mike's, arrest on sight."

[Schmetallurgy]

If you time it from the gun breaking leather to firing it's 2 seconds. Not bad for a concealed draw.

Maybe for a head shot.

[HCM]

Still, that recklessness component seems hard to support. I could see perhaps that hinging on whether or not there was some nominal passive retention to the holster or if it was pretty obvious it wouldn't retain the gun upside down.

A more relevant / likely conditional factor would be whether alcohol was involved.

[Schmetallurgy]

A more relevant / likely conditional factor would be whether alcohol was involved.

Oh, definitely. I made sure to set that aside early on in my comments. My questions are entirely premised on sobriety.

ETA: Re-reading, I wasn't super clear of the sobriety premise... but yeah, I could see booze + backflip making the recklessness for Mis. Deadly Conduct an easy PC sell as it would be a likely interdependent and (for an adult) predictable combination of choices which produced the imminent danger.

[cmoore]

Serpa holster would have prevented this - just saying...

[Schmetallurgy]

Serpa holster would have prevented this - just saying...

Nah, tailbone release.

[DAB]

It was a gun free zone.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/04/patron-shot-by-fbi-agent-at-colorado-nightclub-to-receive-free-drinks-forever.html

[HCM]

It was a gun free zone.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/04/patron-shot-by-fbi-agent-at-colorado-nightclub-to-receive-free-drinks-forever.html

The fact that the establishment was posted under state law is irrelevant since the Agent is authorized under federal law to carry off duty and the place is open to the public. That is not a free pass though. The catch 22 is, most federal agencies prohibit carrying off duty while drinking. (And again we don’t know whether or not the Agent was drinking.)

[DAB]

If you don’t make it a gun free zone, it won’t be a gun free zone. Signs are ignored. Frisk and metal detector will make it a gun free zone.

Recall that the concert in Vegas was an enforced gun free zone. Even for out of town LEOs.

[Eli]

In all seriousness, when you carry a gun constantly you forget you've got a gun on just like you aren't constantly aware of your wallet in your pocket or (if you wear glasses) glasses perched on your nose.


After reading this thread and seeing the countless reposts and memes on this dude over the last couple days...I still managed to jump in the pool this morning with an Airlite J-Frame clipped to the waistband of my swim trunks.

[DMF13]

Peer reviewed, published in journal Applied Ergonomics:
http://www.forcescience.org/assets/futheranalysis.pdf

(Nobody else on PF should read this as they concluded that DA triggers didn't seem to do much to mitigate UD concerns)

Thanks!

[fixer]

Peer reviewed, published in journal Applied Ergonomics:
http://www.forcescience.org/assets/futheranalysis.pdf

(Nobody else on PF should read this as they concluded that DA triggers didn't seem to do much to mitigate UD concerns)

John,

Thanks for posting. Read the whole article. I'm wondering though if the article placed striker fired actions into DAO category. It isn't real clear.

[GardoneVT]

John,

Thanks for posting. Read the whole article. I'm wondering though if the article placed striker fired actions into DAO category. It isn't real clear.

Sample bias. The data used comes from LE agencies,the majority of which issue or approve DAO firearms.

Ultimately -and this isn’t a fun conclusion- the problem of NDs is not a simple as saying “person X broke the Four Rules,thus he was a buffoon”. There’s evidence people ND due to psychological and human factors which transcend training alone.

Jokes aside,it’s pretty much worst case scenario to have your concealed pistol fall out of its holster for any reason in front of 50+ onlookers in public. Drunk or not he was probably stressed out from being put on the spot like this,grabbed the pistol to get back in his holster immediately ....then bang.

[Doc_Glock]

John,

Thanks for posting. Read the whole article. I'm wondering though if the article placed striker fired actions into DAO category. It isn't real clear.

I wondered that myself specifically Glock which has marketed itself as DAO.

[David S.]

I’m sure he never thought about a dropped gun prior to the incident. I could see myself having a similar reaction.

It’s another something to think about and train. Pre-need descision making and all that.

[TC215]

I heard today that this guy is a new agent on probationary status. His career will surely be over.

[GJM]

FIFY
I heard today that this guy is a new agent on probationary status. His FBI career will surely be over, but I heard he is going to be on next season’s Dancing with the Stars.

[Gadfly]

I heard today that this guy is a new agent on probationary status. His career will surely be over.

They don’t even need cause if he is probationary. He is done.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[David S.]

In my industry, he’d become a manager.

[blues]

In my industry, he’d become a manager.

I think he already has an interview scheduled with OSHA in D.C.

Fuck up and move up.

[Coyotesfan97]

He was fired today.

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/05/off-duty-fbi-agent-who-accidentally-fired-gun-at-denver-nightclub-works-in-washington-dc/

[Gadfly]

He was fired today.

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/05/off-duty-fbi-agent-who-accidentally-fired-gun-at-denver-nightclub-works-in-washington-dc/

Did you read the article? Where does it say he was fired? I can’t find that...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[blues]

Did you read the article? Where does it say he was fired? I can’t find that...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Apparently the gun was fired. An inanimate object once again taking the blame for human error. Doesn't seem quite right, does it?

;)

[Coyotesfan97]

Did you read the article? Where does it say he was fired? I can’t find that...

Well shit nope sorry. I swore I heard my local news say he was fired today. In the words of Miss Emily Litella “Nevermind!”


https://youtu.be/OjYoNL4g5Vg

[hufnagel]

I’m sure he never thought about a dropped gun prior to the incident. I could see myself having a similar reaction.

It’s another something to think about and train. Pre-need descision making and all that.

Agreed. Is the current groupthink "put your foot on it", then think about what you're doing to retrieve it? Or is it some other action.

[JohnO]

Agreed. Is the current groupthink "put your foot on it", then think about what you're doing to retrieve it? Or is it some other action.

If you loose control, Let it Go! If you try and grab it while it is falling it will be ugly. It this case it appears that the agent's haste approximated trying to catch a falling gun.

I've been in a class or two where recovery of a dropped gun or battlefield pickup was covered.
I have been told to always turn over a gun such that your hand comes down directly on it, not from under it. I.e. Right handed scenario: gun on ground, muzzle pointing away, but facing to your left. Grab but of gun flip it over so the but is facing to your right and pick up. Index finger well away from trigger. Do not initially attempt to slide you hand under the gun when the but was facing left and pick up that way.

Except for retention purposes I don't see value in stepping on the gun. However thinking about what you are doing is a really good idea! Already having an internal program written for how to deal with it, even better. Like Jeff Cooper said, "I've seen this before and I Know what to Do!"

[GJM]

On a table start, which approximates a pistol on the ground, when possible I use two hands to pick the pistol up. Support hand traps the pistol, while dominant hand acquires a grip.

[Guerrero]

If you loose control, Let it Go! If you try and grab it while it is falling it will be ugly. It this case it appears that the agent's haste approximated trying to catch a falling gun.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxr2PJ06Y4

[Totem Polar]

Agreed. Is the current groupthink "put your foot on it", then think about what you're doing to retrieve it? Or is it some other action.

I don’t know about groupthink, but the one time I remember dropping a gun (a G42 in a kydex trigger guard while packing guns for the range), I did exactly that, consciously, while I waited a split second to take a breath and collect my thoughts. I wasn’t worried about the gun going anywhere, it was more a matter of "the first rule of holes is when you’re in one, stop digging." It’s a good way to freeze the design for a second and catch up. JMO, FWIW, OMMV, etc.

[hufnagel]

That's kind of my thinking as well. Especially in public, I would think putting my foot on it would at least mean i'm "claiming" ownership of it, and would give me a second or to for the brain to catch up with the situation, without the monkey side going all banana grab. I wonder if we could have a productive discussion here about the pros and cons of various concepts of "What to do when you've dropped your gun and your brain has gone into OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH SSSSSSSSHHHHHHIIIIITTTTTTT mode."

[Totem Polar]

...and would give me a second or to for the brain to catch up with the situation, without the monkey side going all banana grab.

This. Laconic and better way to say what I was thinking.

[critter]

"What to do when you've dropped your gun and your brain has gone into OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH SSSSSSSSHHHHHHIIIIITTTTTTT mode."

And especially, "OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH SSSSSSSSHHHHHHIIIIITTTTTTT I just made a complete fool of myself, and EVERYONE is staring at me knowing I just made a complete fool of myself" mode.

I doubt anyone would panic banana grab at home, or while doing back flips in an empty dance hall. Knowing that he'd gone from super cool to super fool in a nanosecond probably played a not so negligible part of the formula for disaster.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When you are outdoors and drop a gun, there is too much crap on the ground to put a foot on it, IMHO. On our ranges, you have rocks, empty casings and uneven ground. I would rather look at it and do a deliberate pick up. Indoors, with a slick floor I could see you slipping on the gun for more hilarious home videos.

I go for deliberate and no footsie.

[BigD]

the current groupthink

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I think the words you are looking for are collective wisdom.

[HopetonBrown]

There's a thing on the weekends where you often pick up a gun with a bunch of people staring at you.

Some people in this thread are saying this event wouldn't have happened if he had a TDA gun.

I'll posit that it wouldn't have happened if he regularly attended those events.

If possible I prefer software solutions.

[GJM]

It is human nature to look to validate your own beliefs. If you carry a DA/SA, you see this as a hardware problem. If you are a striker guy, you probably see this as a software problem.

Very similar to the recent G43 ND, where those that dislike appendix carry, see this incident as “proof” for their belief.

[critter]

It is human nature to look to validate your own beliefs. If you carry a DA/SA, you see this as a hardware problem. If you are a striker guy, you probably see this as a software problem.

Very similar to the recent G43 ND, where those that dislike appendix carry, see this incident as “proof” for their belief.

I agree. And yet, finger inside the trigger guard when/while retrieving* a stationary weapon will always** be a software problem.



* wouldn't that prefix mean that one is actually 'trieving' ... again?

** Yeah, someone is bound to come up with an exception... finger was blown off and remains inside trigger guard.. some minute yet greater than zero probability scenario. :cool:

[BehindBlueI's]

It is human nature to look to validate your own beliefs. If you carry a DA/SA, you see this as a hardware problem. If you are a striker guy, you probably see this as a software problem.

Very similar to the recent G43 ND, where those that dislike appendix carry, see this incident as “proof” for their belief.

It's both. You can be safe with a striker fired gun. You just have less margin for error. You can be dangerous with a DA/SA or manual safety equipped gun. You just have to work harder at it. Appendix is more dangerous. For proof, I offer that I have had zero fatal self inflicted shootings with strong side carry and have more than zero fatal self inflicted shootings with appendix carry. Of course you can do it safely, but the stakes are raised for any mistakes.


I agree. And yet, finger inside the trigger guard when/while retrieving* a stationary weapon will always** be a software problem.
:

Of course it is. But, let's trot that out to the extreme. If I had a 1.5 lb trigger, as long as I was perfect with my "software" it'd never be an issue. Yet we all recognize that a 1.5 lb trigger is incredibly stupid for a carry gun. Why? Well, we know we *aren't* perfect and have the capacity to screw the pooch in old ways and new and exciting ways. We train and practice to approach 0%, but we can't get there. Hardware and software are not equal in the "what screwed this up" equation, but they are both present.

[olstyn]

If you carry a DA/SA, you see this as a hardware problem. If you are a striker guy, you probably see this as a software problem.

I carry and compete with DA/SA and I see it as a software problem. Safe habits are important.

[GJM]

While common sense suggests a DA/SA should be safer than a striker, I was quite interested in the Front Sight ND data, that shows accidental shootings (of self) were evenly distributed between DA/SA, 1911 and striker, despite my belief that striker pistols represented a high percentage of pistols used there.

Where the DA/SA pistols seem to bite, is when they are not decocked, and the shooter applies ten pounds of pressure to an expected twelve pound trigger, and unintentionally presses a four pound DA trigger. Sure that is avoidable with proper technique, but couldn’t the same be said for almost every ND irrespective of action type?

[David S.]

The way he stumbled forward when he picked up the gun, I'm not so sure a DA trigger would have prevented this ND.

I'm speculating about this event, not broader DA vs SF discussion.

[Rosco Benson]

One of the IPSC nationals (IIRC, Park City, UT 1978 or so) had a "Guatemalan Steakhouse" stage. The start was with the shooter seated at a table, the pistol laying thereon, with the grip pointed away from the shooter's dominant side, and covered with a napkin. On the whistle, the shooter would remove the napkin, flip the pistol over, pick it up, and shoot the targets.

SOF's Bob Brown managed to put a round through the table. No harm done other than that. Jeff Cooper drew a circle around the hole with a magic marker and wrote "this is a bad thing" on the table.

I resume the pistol was a 1911 as that is about all anyone was using back then.

I wasn't there, but that's the story I got from a friend who was.

Rosco

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The way he stumbled forward when he picked up the gun, I'm not so sure a DA trigger would have prevented this ND.

I'm speculating about this event, not broader DA vs SF discussion.

The human factors measurements folk demonstrated that a stumble can cause a clench that will pull DA semi and revolver triggers. It's in a few articles and books.

[John Hearne]

The human factors measurements folk demonstrated that a stumble can cause a clench that will pull DA semi and revolver triggers. It's in a few articles and books.

Don't have author/title/page number but I'm pretty sure you can get up to 50 lbs of clinch in a good startle.

[Trooper224]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/victim-shot-back-flipping-fbi-agent-says-initially-115504028--abc-news-topstories.html

[TC215]

Looks like he will be charged with 2nd degree assault.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/12/fbi-agent-who-accidentally-fired-gun-while-dancing-turns-himself-in-could-face-assault-charge.html

[RevolverRob]

The irony. Victim moved from Chicago to Denver and gets shot in Denver...

[Zincwarrior]

Looks like he will be charged with 2nd degree assault.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/12/fbi-agent-who-accidentally-fired-gun-while-dancing-turns-himself-in-could-face-assault-charge.html

Good deal.

[TC215]

Good deal.


How many were shootings? This not a car wreck. This is a negligent shooting.

I would pay good bucks that nothing significant happens to this guy. He may be sued but he will not be charged and he will not be fired.

If it were Joe Shmo, yes something would happen to him.

We will accept your "good bucks" as a donation to Pistol-Forum.com.

[Sensei]

Good deal.

I’m not so sure. 2nd degree assault is a felony in CO with a COV designation carrying mandatory prison time if convicted. I assume the prosecutor is justifying the charge under the “recklessly causing serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon” provision in the statute.

I might be more comfortable with the charge if he was shitfaced drunk or waving the gun around and injured someone. However, I’m a little unsettled by a felony charge from a non-fatal ND to the leg while retrieving a gun that fell out of a holster. Assuming he was sober (a big assumption) that means that virtually any ND that causes injury in CO could make you a felon. Are you cool with that?

[HCM]

I’m not so sure. 2nd degree assault is a felony in CO with a COV designation carrying mandatory prison time if convicted. I assume the prosecutor is justifying the charge under the “recklessly causing serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon” provision in the statute.

I might be more comfortable with the charge if he was shitfaced drunk or waving the gun around and injured someone. However, I’m a little unsettled by a felony charge from a non-fatal ND to the leg while retrieving a gun that fell out of a holster. Assuming he was sober (a big assumption) that means that virtually any ND that causes injury in CO could make you a felon. Are you cool with that?

I’m not but looking a the CO statute:

2016 Colorado Revised Statutes
Title 18 - Criminal Code
Article 3 - Offenses Against the Person
Part 2 - Assaults
§ 18-3-203. Assault in the second degree


d) He recklessly causes serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon; or

CO Statutes define “Recklessly” thus:

Title 18 - Criminal Code
Article 1 - Provisions Applicable to Offenses Generally
Part 5 - Principles of Criminal Culpability
§ 18-1-501. Definitions



(8) "Recklessly". A person acts recklessly when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists.

Given they still don’t have BAC results there is no way they can support the Reckless element at this time.

DA is grand standing and over charging for political purposes.

[HCM]

We will accept your "good bucks" as a donation to Pistol-Forum.com.

Pay up !

https://pistol-forum.com/payments.php

[Trooper224]

I’m not so sure. 2nd degree assault is a felony in CO with a COV designation carrying mandatory prison time if convicted. I assume the prosecutor is justifying the charge under the “recklessly causing serious bodily injury to another person by means of a deadly weapon” provision in the statute.

I might be more comfortable with the charge if he was shitfaced drunk or waving the gun around and injured someone. However, I’m a little unsettled by a felony charge from a non-fatal ND to the leg while retrieving a gun that fell out of a holster. Assuming he was sober (a big assumption) that means that virtually any ND that causes injury in CO could make you a felon. Are you cool with that?

I suspect they're going with a greater charge initially in order to plead it down to a lesser charge along the lines of reckless endangerment, or Colorado's equivalent.

[Rex G]

Well, the video seemed to show the “recklessly” part, well enough.

The trigger is not a carry handle.

The trigger is NOT a carry handle!

[scw2]

I suspect they're going with a greater charge initially in order to plead it down to a lesser charge along the lines of reckless endangerment, or Colorado's equivalent.

Would it be a risk on the prosecution to overcharge? I'd think if they go to trial and the overcharging were egregious, they would risk no conviction at all. IANAL or LEO so wondering if that thought process makes sense...

[Zincwarrior]

We will accept your "good bucks" as a donation to Pistol-Forum.com.

done.

[Gadfly]

Given they still don’t have BAC results there is no way they can support the Reckless element at this time.

DA is grand standing and over charging for political purposes.

^^^THIS^^^

"(8) "Recklessly". A person acts recklessly when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists."

The acts leading up to the shooting are not items addressed by the statute. Therefore, I would argue his dance is immaterial, and his flip is immaterial. If you do want to include them in the crime, is it a "substantial and unjustifiable risk" to dance on a dance floor? If so, everyone in there was reckless. AT THE TIME THE TRIGGER WAS PULLED, is what is being judged. SO, is it a "Substantial and unjustifiable risk" to pick up a pistol if it is dropped? Is there a GREATER RISK to leaving the pistol unattended on the ground?

He was not waving the gun around showing it off. THAT would be reckless. He was not trying to be Mr Big Shot and intimidate someone. That would be reckless. He did not intentional, draw, point or fire.

I see an easy slam dunk on the conviction for "Drunk With a Gun", but not for assault.

Was it stupid? Yes. Irresponsible? Probably. Was it Criminal Assault? meh. Was it Drunken Disorderly? Seems to fit better.

I am amazed so many want to see this kid tarred and feathered. He obviously had to work hard and keep his nose clean his entire life to get picked up by the FBI to begin with. He fucked up. He will lose his job. He has basically lost everything he has worked for his entire life. Will society be any safer with his incarceration?

[willie]

Charging him is idiotic. Write the man a ticket and be done with it. His FBI career is over. That's penalty enough. This incident is one more example showing reasons for leaving guns at home when participating in activities where alcohol is served. If the same thing had happened at a church picnic, the outcome would be different. Each of us has to weigh risks. In this man's case, he now will become entangled in the criminal justice system best suited for dealing with murderers, rapists, and thieves. Lawyers will soon suck him dry. He will find out who his friends are when he walks into a room, and everybody else leaves. I learned long ago that when it gets down to the nut cut'n, you learn who will and won't stand by you. The DA must be a supreme prick who has a personality aberration.

[Zincwarrior]

^^^THIS^^^

"(8) "Recklessly". A person acts recklessly when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that a result will occur or that a circumstance exists."

The acts leading up to the shooting are not items addressed by the statute. Therefore, I would argue his dance is immaterial, and his flip is immaterial. If you do want to include them in the crime, is it a "substantial and unjustifiable risk" to dance on a dance floor? If so, everyone in there was reckless. AT THE TIME THE TRIGGER WAS PULLED, is what is being judged. SO, is it a "Substantial and unjustifiable risk" to pick up a pistol if it is dropped? Is there a GREATER RISK to leaving the pistol unattended on the ground?

He was not waving the gun around showing it off. THAT would be reckless. He was not trying to be Mr Big Shot and intimidate someone. That would be reckless. He did not intentional, draw, point or fire.

I see an easy slam dunk on the conviction for "Drunk With a Gun", but not for assault.

Was it stupid? Yes. Irresponsible? Probably. Was it Criminal Assault? meh. Was it Drunken Disorderly? Seems to fit better.

I am amazed so many want to see this kid tarred and feathered. He obviously had to work hard and keep his nose clean his entire life to get picked up by the FBI to begin with. He fucked up. He will lose his job. He has basically lost everything he has worked for his entire life. Will society be any safer with his incarceration?

He has been authorized by the government to carry a firearm and potentially use it. With power comes duty. He should at least be sentenced to the same minimum as a non government employee, but moreso due to that.

[ssb]

Would it be a risk on the prosecution to overcharge? I'd think if they go to trial and the overcharging were egregious, they would risk no conviction at all. IANAL or LEO so wondering if that thought process makes sense...

Not if the charge has lesser included offenses. From the title, "second degree" implies there are other degrees of assault in Colorado. I don't know that because I'm not a Colorado lawyer, but that would be my assumption. I would further assume that in Colorado -- just like everywhere else -- the jury finding you had not proved all of the elements of the charged offense but had proved all of the elements of another like offense means they may convict on that other like offense.

Example of this in action: Aggravated assault by strangulation charged, taken to trial, jury returns a verdict of domestic assault. Assault requires an act by the defendant causing injury to another or putting them in imminent fear of injury; aggravated assault (in my state) requires doing the same and either a) causing serious bodily injury, b) using a weapon, or c) employing strangulation (recent addition for domestic violence). Jury doesn't buy the State's "she was strangled" argument because they ignore the statutory language and believe the defense's argument saying it's not strangulation if the victim doesn't testify she went unconscious, so they come back with domestic instead.

[critter]

...
I am amazed so many want to see this kid tarred and feathered. He obviously had to work hard and keep his nose clean his entire life to get picked up by the FBI to begin with. He fucked up. He will lose his job. He has basically lost everything he has worked for his entire life. Will society be any safer with his incarceration?

You mean here? or social media? I'd say most on here don't want to see criminal charges at all. Even Zincwarrior doesn't appear to want him dragged to the gallows but rather to face the exact charge a non FBI citizen would face, whatever that would be. Of course, he may surreptitiously be part of secret vigilante society yet to make the news. :D

[HCM]

Well, the video seemed to show the “recklessly” part, well enough.

The trigger is not a carry handle.

The trigger is NOT a carry handle!

Words have specific legal meanings. Read the CO statute's definition of "Recklessly" again.

What the video shows me is he was dancing, likely forgot he had a gun on and then grabbed it in a panic when he realized it fell out in public resulting in the ND. No "conscious" decision making there. Bad decisions yes, conscious decisions, no.

The back flip with the gun would be better categorized as "negligent"

The only possible way they could argue a "conscious decision" would be if he is BAC positive, particularly if his BAC was > .08.

[TGS]

I am amazed so many want to see this kid tarred and feathered. He obviously had to work hard and keep his nose clean his entire life to get picked up by the FBI to begin with. He fucked up. He will lose his job. He has basically lost everything he has worked for his entire life. Will society be any safer with his incarceration?

I'm seeing the harsh reactions as being the same dynamic that applies when people speak of other NDs in general, or when speaking about a given enemy. We try to paint them in as poor a light as possible to separate ourselves from them in order to convince ourselves that they are somehow different, worse, and that it can't happen to us.....that we are inherently better human beings. I've seen this discussed before in the gun community, I can't remember the psych term/bias label.

As for me, I can understand a misdemeanor charge. Making him a felon seems awfully harsh for the reasons that Gadfly went over. Zincwarrior mentioned that he should be charged the same minimum as a non-governmental employee, which is continuing to imply that the government is biased and lets off LEOs easy. Instead, what I see throughout America is the opposite. An FBI agent involved in a good shoot was charged with a felony because he lied in the post incident reports, stating that he didn't fire his weapon, yet I have people lie to me all the time about their actual involvement in criminal activities and they rarely if ever get hit with 1001 unless its being tacked on for other reasons. Similarly, a cop gets his eye taken out by a women resisting arrest who kicked him in the eyeball with a fucking stilletto heel, and she got charged with simple assault., not attempted murder or any other appropriate charge.

I understand that alcohol may have been involved, and if so is an aggravating factor......but I am not okay with the idea that I'm going to be a felon if I ND my gun while trying to pick it up after dropping it. I don't understand how any gun owner would be comfortable with that.

[GardoneVT]

Charging him is idiotic. Write the man a ticket and be done with it. His FBI career is over. That's penalty enough. This incident is one more example showing reasons for leaving guns at home when participating in activities where alcohol is served. If the same thing had happened at a church picnic, the outcome would be different. Each of us has to weigh risks. In this man's case, he now will become entangled in the criminal justice system best suited for dealing with murderers, rapists, and thieves. Lawyers will soon suck him dry. He will find out who his friends are when he walks into a room, and everybody else leaves. I learned long ago that when it gets down to the nut cut'n, you learn who will and won't stand by you. The DA must be a supreme prick who has a personality aberration.

Or just politically savvy.

Whatever the legal merits are for charging the probationary FBI are, one thing is certain: dismissing the case does not have good optics. It screams “crony politics” for the government to appear to give a pass to an agent working for the same,even if the facts of the case suggest no crime should be charged.

Ultimately the facts will be shown,and he’ll be held to account for his actions. That’s a better outcome then many get.

[TheNewbie]

An ended career and a misdemeanor seems fair enough, because I think that's what would happen to most people. He should get no special treatment because of his agent status, but he shouldn't be treated more harshly because of it either.

[BN]

I thought FBI were required to carry a gun at all times????

[JAD]

He has been authorized by the government to carry a firearm and potentially use it..

So have I, and I’m a salesman.

[Gadfly]

Say this exact same type of thing happens to anyone on here. Lets remove the booze issue, and say you were leaning back in your chair at a Chili's for lunch, and tipped over. Gun spills out. You frantically snatch it up.

For the sake of discussion, lets say you are a mechanic (or a architect/car salesman/paint contractor/manager of Home Depot). If you are any other profession than LEO, would you lose your job over an accident? Not only lose your job, lose your ability to ever work in the industry again. Would the paint contractor be barred from ever getting a job painting houses again? I would dare say that the mechanic/car salesman/architect/lawyer/contractor would all still have a job, and would not be subject to loss of medical/retirement/employment.

To say this guy is not being punished is to ignore that he is about to lose everything, and will never work in LE again. Think about your job, and where you are in life. If You had an AD/ND like this, what would you think about losing your job? What would your wife say when you told her that the kids no longer have health insurance? He will eventually find a new job in a different industry in a few months. But it will probably be at a pay cut. Lets assume he just lost 6 months of income until he finds a new job. That's a $40-50k hit he just took. He is not walking away scott free. OH, and the civil suit is soon to follow.

[LSP552]

An ended career and a misdemeanor seems fair enough, because I think that's what would happen to most people. He should get no special treatment because of his agent status, but he shouldn't be treated more harshly because of it either.

It’s been my experience that LE folks tend to get treated more harshly than non-LE when it comes to charges and the courts.

[Gadfly]

It’s been my experience that LE folks tend to get treated more harshly than non-LE when it comes to charges and the courts.

If he were doing crooked shit (stealing dope from dealers/molesting female prisoners/money missing from evidence) I totally understand the "held to a higher standard" thing. This wasn't crooked shit...

[RevolverRob]

I thought FBI were required to carry a gun at all times????

So, I'm wondering if that is part of the charge by the DA is that the bar the agent was in, "Forbids" carrying of weapons? I could see someone getting all hot and bothered since LEOSA does not protect carriers from, "restrictions imposed by private persons on their own private property". BUT - doesn't FBI policy supersede this? I could be wrong, but it seems like it does. Or have we finally arrived at a place where - we now see the intersection of federal law and private property to sufficiently test the limits of LEOSA?

[GJM]

I feel bad for the guy. We have all done stupid stuff, and the combination of YouTube videos going viral, and the beating the FBI has recently taken in the court of public opinion, came together to ruin this guy’s life.

I know someone that set up a Herman Nelson heater to warm a helicopter on -40 northern BC morning, left and went to breakfast with a buddy, and came back to find the helicopter and hangar fully engulfed in flames. He later went on to become one of the most respected helicopter mountain flying instructors in history, and taught for decades.

Seems like a teachable moment in Denver.

[GardoneVT]

Say this exact same type of thing happens to anyone on here. Lets remove the booze issue, and say you were leaning back in your chair at a Chili's for lunch, and tipped over. Gun spills out. You frantically snatch it up.

For the sake of discussion, lets say you are a mechanic (or a architect/car salesman/paint contractor/manager of Home Depot). If you are any other profession than LEO, would you lose your job over an accident? Not only lose your job, lose your ability to ever work in the industry again. Would the paint contractor be barred from ever getting a job painting houses again? I would dare say that the mechanic/car salesman/architect/lawyer/contractor would all still have a job, and would not be subject to loss of medical/retirement/employment.

To say this guy is not being punished is to ignore that he is about to lose everything, and will never work in LE again. Think about your job, and where you are in life. If You had an AD/ND like this, what would you think about losing your job? What would your wife say when you told her that the kids no longer have health insurance? He will eventually find a new job in a different industry in a few months. But it will probably be at a pay cut. Lets assume he just lost 6 months of income until he finds a new job. That's a $40-50k hit he just took. He is not walking away scott free. OH, and the civil suit is soon to follow.

In my industry,I would lose the ability to work in the industry again . There wouldn’t be a legal prohibition per se,but no legitimate financial institution would ever touch me if I was That Guy.

I’m not in the camp of frying the man,nor am I advocating he get off without consequence. He should be treated just like anyone else who made such an error. It appears that is what’s happening here- and the DA wouldn’t be the first prosecutor to embellish the charges for political reasons.

[TGS]

So, I'm wondering if that is part of the charge by the DA is that the bar the agent was in, "Forbids" carrying of weapons? I could see someone getting all hot and bothered since LEOSA does not protect carriers from, "restrictions imposed by private persons on their own private property". BUT - doesn't FBI policy supersede this? I could be wrong, but it seems like it does. Or have we finally arrived at a place where - we now see the intersection of federal law and private property to sufficiently test the limits of LEOSA?

Policy never supersedes law.

LEOSA has nothing to do with it. He's authorized by the federal government to carry the weapon as part of his employment, and off-duty carry is within the scope of his duties.

When not conducting business, a private property can tell him that he can't come in with a gun...but they have to tell him he's trespassing (unless you're in a state where a posted sign carries that weight and does not exclude LE).

[CWM11B]

So, I'm wondering if that is part of the charge by the DA is that the bar the agent was in, "Forbids" carrying of weapons? I could see someone getting all hot and bothered since LEOSA does not protect carriers from, "restrictions imposed by private persons on their own private property". BUT - doesn't FBI policy supersede this? I could be wrong, but it seems like it does. Or have we finally arrived at a place where - we now see the intersection of federal law and private property to sufficiently test the limits of LEOSA?

Depends on the state. I dont know about the Colorado statutes, but NC GS 14-269 exempts all LEOs from prohibited properties, except federal. The only restriction placed is you can have ZERO alcohol or controlled substances in your system. If a LEO is made while CC or asked to leave while OC (even in uniform) they are bound to do so or potentially face trespassing charges. The exception there being if they are on duty and on premises for an official act. Grabbing a meal or a coffee and asked to leave? Gotta do it. And yes, it happened to more than one of my colleagues when i was still working.

I'll echo the experience that LEOs are treated much more harshly than citizens in the courts. Funny how we never seem to hear about all the breaks cops cut joe schmoe. It is the rare misdeameanor that costs the average citizen his job. Cops usually do. If not, suspensions without pay are common. I've seen guys get up to a month with no pay as a punishment. And they cannot work their off duty uniform gigs while suspended.

[GardoneVT]

Grabbing a meal or a coffee and asked to leave? Gotta do it. And yes, it happened to more than one of my colleagues when i was still working.


???

[TGS]

???

It's a private property. Unless you have a warrant or some other exigent circumstance (like "hot pursuit"), they can ask anyone to leave.

[GardoneVT]

It's a private property. Unless you have a warrant or some other exigent circumstance (like "hot pursuit"), they can ask anyone to leave.

Read you on that- the question marks are for why the heck anyone running a proper business would ask on duty uniformed LEOs to leave. It’s not like they’re Feds who can’t dance.....

[Zincwarrior]

You mean here? or social media? I'd say most on here don't want to see criminal charges at all. Even Zincwarrior doesn't appear to want him dragged to the gallows but rather to face the exact charge a non FBI citizen would face, whatever that would be. Of course, he may surreptitiously be part of secret vigilante society yet to make the news. :D

Nah, being a part of a vigilante club takes away from my sofa time. The fat wiener dog is not going to allow that!

[Zincwarrior]

So have I, and I’m a salesman.

if all else fails do you make them an offer they can't refuse? :cool:

[El Cid]

I feel bad for the guy. We have all done stupid stuff, and the combination of YouTube videos going viral, and the beating the FBI has recently taken in the court of public opinion, came together to ruin this guy’s life.

I know someone that set up a Herman Nelson heater to warm a helicopter on -40 northern BC morning, left and went to breakfast with a buddy, and came back to find the helicopter and hangar fully engulfed in flames. He later went on to become one of the most respected helicopter mountain flying instructors in history, and taught for decades.

Seems like a teachable moment in Denver.

Something that really bugs me is that he doesn’t appear to have rendered aid or even tried to find out if anyone was injured. The second video seems to support that as he can be seen walking off the dance floor 90 degrees left of where the round went. If I did something dumb and launched a round in an unintended event I’d be frantically trying to find where it went and provide medical assistance to anyone injured.

Is it possible the environment was so loud he didn’t know he fired the gun?

[blues]

Something that really bugs me is that he doesn’t appear to have rendered aid or even tried to find out if anyone was injured. The second video seems to support that as he can be seen walking off the dance floor 90 degrees left of where the round went. If I did something dumb and launched a round in an unintended event I’d be frantically trying to find where it went and provide medical assistance to anyone injured.

Is it possible the environment was so loud he didn’t know he fired the gun?

I didn't watch the videos, could he have been in a bit of shock afterward between the incident, noise and lighting?

(I know nothing of his state of mind or if there was any alcohol involved.)

[El Cid]

I didn't watch the videos, could he have been in a bit of shock afterward between the incident, noise and lighting?

(I know nothing of his state of mind or if there was any alcohol involved.)

It’s possible. We won’t have a full picture of the events until released. But the video shows him walk off smiling and looks really bad. If there are mitigating factors I hope for his sake they get shared.

[CWM11B]

Read you on that- the question marks are for why the heck anyone running a proper business would ask on duty uniformed LEOs to leave. It’s not like they’re Feds who can’t dance.....

Plenty of places dont like the police. It happened to at least three of our guys I know of. I just wrote the businesses off. Someone else will take my money. And the last thing I wanted to do is drink or eat something prepared by someone who hates me because of my job and the uniform I wore.

[willie]

Like I said, the D.A. is a prick. If he had nuts, he would have the man issued a ticket and then forget the matter. I've got 70 lily white years logged with a total of 4 speeding tickets as criminal history. If I got a felony for something like this or this, that would be a travesty. Ditto for G Man. Good guys need a break.

[GardoneVT]

Like I said, the D.A. is a prick. If he had nuts......

Not likely . Picture of said DA:

http://images.politico.com/global/arena/101028_mccann_376.jpg

[BehindBlueI's]

He has been authorized by the government to carry a firearm and potentially use it. With power comes duty. He should at least be sentenced to the same minimum as a non government employee, but moreso due to that.

What's "moreso"? First he wouldn't be charged due to .gov now his sentencing should be more harsh due to .gov?

Personally, I doubt the charges stick to begin with. I also doubt a non-media case would have been charged to begin with, regardless if LEO or not. Locally, it's referred to as an APE case, A Political Emergency. Often started by a media attention circle jerk, but not always. However if the charges do stick, there's nothing in the law or in sentencing guidelines that are based on occupation.

[Sensei]

I’m not but looking a the CO statute:

2016 Colorado Revised Statutes
Title 18 - Criminal Code
Article 3 - Offenses Against the Person
Part 2 - Assaults
§ 18-3-203. Assault in the second degree



CO Statutes define “Recklessly” thus:

Title 18 - Criminal Code
Article 1 - Provisions Applicable to Offenses Generally
Part 5 - Principles of Criminal Culpability
§ 18-1-501. Definitions




Given they still don’t have BAC results there is no way they can support the Reckless element at this time.

DA is grand standing and over charging for political purposes.

In addition to not meeting the reckless threshold, I’m not sure that the victim’s injuries meet the definition of serious bodily injury. The law describes serious bodily injury as:

Bodily injury that, either at the time of the actual injury or at a later time, involves a substantial risk of death, a substantial risk of serious permanent disfigurement, a substantial risk of protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part or organ of the body, or breaks, fractures, or burns of the second or third degree.

It appears that the victim’s injury was a through-and-through GSW to the lateral aspect of the left leg. It did not result in fracture or neurovascular injury, nor did it require surgery. It will simply require rest, ice, elevation, and some local wound care. He may be on crutches for a week or so.

[TGS]

In addition to not meeting the reckless threshold, I’m not sure that the victim’s injuries meet the definition of serious bodily injury. The law describes serious bodily injury as:

Bodily injury that, either at the time of the actual injury or at a later time, involves a substantial risk of death, a substantial risk of serious permanent disfigurement, a substantial risk of protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part or organ of the body, or breaks, fractures, or burns of the second or third degree.

It appears that the victim’s injury was a through-and-through GSW to the lateral aspect of the left leg. It did not result in fracture or neurovascular injury, nor did it require surgery. It will simply require rest, ice, elevation, and some local wound care. He may be on crutches for a week or so.

AFAIK, lethal force is lethal force when talking about the legal concept of SBI. Whether a doctor determines it's a non-life threatening injury after the fact is not part of the equation if, 1) the tool is inherently a deadly force instrument, such as a gun, and 2) it was applied to the victim.

[BehindBlueI's]

AFAIK, lethal force is lethal force when talking about the legal concept of SBI. Whether a doctor determines it's a non-life threatening injury after the fact is not part of the equation if the tool is inherently a deadly force instrument, such as a gun.

Lethal force and serious bodily injury are different concepts. Lethal force means has the potential to inflict SBI, regardless of if it does or not. That potential doesn't equate to "lethal force mechanisms always create SBI-type injuries", though. A knife is lethal force. A scratch on the forearm isn't SBI. Same here.

Indiana has long had SBI and BI, and we recently got MBI (Moderate Bodily Injury) to cover this middle ground of not debilitating but more than superficial. Under the old rule, a gunshot through the calf is not SBI, as it doesn't cause protracted loss of use of the limb, etc. Our SBI mostly mirrors that of what was posted by Sensei, but a few differences (adds loss of consciousness, extreme pain, doesn't include specifics on burns). Under the old rule, a GSW to the calf would just be BI. Now it'd be MBI. However shooting at someone is lethal force, even if no injury results.

Example: https://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/08170714pdm.pdf

BI, MBI, SBI: https://www.in.gov/ipac/files/13._Case_law_summary_Indiana_bodily_injury_and_SBI _definitions.pdf

TL;DR: In short: Lethal Force is about potential injury. SBI/MBI/BI is about actual injury.

[TGS]

TL;DR: In short: Lethal Force is about potential injury. SBI/MBI/BI is about actual injury.

Gotcha, thank you.

[Sensei]

Lethal force and serious bodily injury are different concepts. Lethal force means has the potential to inflict SBI, regardless of if it does or not. That potential doesn't equate to "lethal force mechanisms always create SBI-type injuries", though. A knife is lethal force. A scratch on the forearm isn't SBI. Same here.

Indiana has long had SBI and BI, and we recently got MBI (Moderate Bodily Injury) to cover this middle ground of not debilitating but more than superficial. Under the old rule, a gunshot through the calf is not SBI, as it doesn't cause protracted loss of use of the limb, etc. Our SBI mostly mirrors that of what was posted by Sensei, but a few differences (adds loss of consciousness, extreme pain, doesn't include specifics on burns). Under the old rule, a GSW to the calf would just be BI. Now it'd be MBI. However shooting at someone is lethal force, even if no injury results.

Example: https://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/08170714pdm.pdf

BI, MBI, SBI: https://www.in.gov/ipac/files/13._Case_law_summary_Indiana_bodily_injury_and_SBI _definitions.pdf

TL;DR: In short: Lethal Force is about potential injury. SBI/MBI/BI is about actual injury.

Looking in my crystal ball, I predict the fact that someone put a tourniquet on the victim’s leg and that he was reportedly “going in and out of consciousness” are going to be small optics problems that need to be addressed by a good expert witness for the defense. My fee is $500/hr plus expenses...

This is reason number 101 why putting a TQ on every GSW to the extremity is a bad idea - it makes lawyers say shit like, “the wound was so serious that he needed a tourniquet to stop the bleeding.” Meanwhile, a simple 4X4 dressing and a cup of hot coco would have addressed the bleeding and resulting fainting spell.

[HCM]

Colorado statutes give the following definitions:


(c) "Bodily injury" means physical pain, illness, or any impairment of physical or mental condition.


(p) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury which, either at the time of the actual injury or at a later time, involves a substantial risk of death, a substantial risk of serious permanent disfigurement, a substantial risk of protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part or organ of the body, or breaks, fractures, or burns of the second or third degree.

[TGS]

I guess I still don't understand how it wouldn't be SBI.

Just because a doctor said it was a through-and-through doesn't mean there isn't a "susbtantial risk" for most of those things written above by the fact that a bullet entered your body. Just cause it didn't actually sever an artery or hit a vital organ doesn't mean you weren't at substantial risk for being killed when a person sent a bullet into your body, and it caused an injury that has a substantial risk of killing you or causing permanent loss, even if via infection, unless you seek professional medical attention. I don't know if I'm over thinking this or being too much of a simpleton.

BBI, when you guys are discussing whether to charge BI/MBI/SBI, who makes the determination as to which category a GSW fits into?

[JAD]

.” Meanwhile, a simple 4X4 dressing and a cup of hot coco would have addressed the bleeding and resulting fainting spell.

Because of his avatar I read everything of Sensei’s in Hanna’s voice. That made “and a cup of hot cocoa” very funny.

[ssb]

I guess I still don't understand how it wouldn't be SBI.

Just because a doctor said it was a through-and-through doesn't mean there isn't a "susbtantial risk" for most of those things written above by the fact that a bullet entered your body. Just cause it didn't actually sever an artery or hit a vital organ doesn't mean you weren't at substantial risk for being killed when a person sent a bullet into your body, and it caused an injury that has a substantial risk of killing you or causing permanent loss, even if via infection, unless you seek professional medical attention. I don't know if I'm over thinking this or being too much of a simpleton.

BBI, when you guys are discussing whether to charge BI/MBI/SBI, who makes the determination as to which category a GSW fits into?

We would get around that problem (non-life threatening GSW) by using the language "uses or displays a deadly weapon" in our equivalent statute. It doesn't become simple assault just because the Defendant shot poorly.

Colorado has similar enough language ("with the intent to cause bodily injury, he or she causes injury . . . by means of a deadly weapon"), though they require that the weapon's use cause some injury (whereas we can sustain a conviction based upon the threatened use, so long as evidence supports "imminent fear" of being shot/stabbed/etc.). My former state had language similar to my current state. I would imagine most states are similar enough in this respect.

[BehindBlueI's]

I guess I still don't understand how it wouldn't be SBI.

Just because a doctor said it was a through-and-through doesn't mean there isn't a "susbtantial risk" for most of those things written above by the fact that a bullet entered your body. Just cause it didn't actually sever an artery or hit a vital organ doesn't mean you weren't at substantial risk for being killed when a person sent a bullet into your body, and it caused an injury that has a substantial risk of killing you or causing permanent loss, even if via infection, unless you seek professional medical attention. I don't know if I'm over thinking this or being too much of a simpleton.

BBI, when you guys are discussing whether to charge BI/MBI/SBI, who makes the determination as to which category a GSW fits into?

Screening prosecutors.

Substantial risk from the actual injury, not the potential injuries that could have happened. Shatter his knee, SBI. Miss his knee and gouge some calf muscle, not SBI.

[fixer]

Say this exact same type of thing happens to anyone on here. Lets remove the booze issue, and say you were leaning back in your chair at a Chili's for lunch, and tipped over. Gun spills out. You frantically snatch it up.

For the sake of discussion, lets say you are a mechanic (or a architect/car salesman/paint contractor/manager of Home Depot). If you are any other profession than LEO, would you lose your job over an accident? Not only lose your job, lose your ability to ever work in the industry again. Would the paint contractor be barred from ever getting a job painting houses again? I would dare say that the mechanic/car salesman/architect/lawyer/contractor would all still have a job, and would not be subject to loss of medical/retirement/employment.

.

If I was in the exact same circumstances, yes my employer would fire me.

And again, in the exact same situation, I'd likely never be hired for the same job ever again and lose 3 X the income this guy is.

Modern corporations will not tolerate behavior like this from their staff. Not one bit. Legal depts. counsel the HR dept and say " this guy is a liability" and from there you are shown the door.

And because its on youtube, the news, and social media, other companies are going to review it as a matter of policy and practice. Modern companies scour social media and pay hefty sums to research people's backgrounds. Even bad credit can keep me out of a job.

And I'd be stuffed in a cop car facing a near certain reckless discharge case. And a major civil suit.

As bad as I feel for the agent I feel worse for the person who got hurt because of the idiocy on display.

[CWM11B]

So, pretty much what is happening to the agent. I agree with you, many professions (doctors, corporate execs, nurses, etc.) would likely face ramifications more severe than most. The average Joe would not. I've seen it countless times. Bottom line, dude made a bad decision and he is paying a hefty price for it. I have no problem with him getting terminated. I have a HUGE problem with overcharging to make political hay. And that is with respect to anyone. I've been in plenty of heated arguments on what charges to seek on individuals that the majority of the membership here would agree is a flaming POS whom we would all be better off if they were dead. Not directing this at any member, nor should it be taken as condescending, but those of you not in LE would probably be surprised at the lengths the majority of cops go to insure appropriate charges are made, or no charges if the evidence does not support it. Plenty of folks are not charged with stuff we absolutely know did it, but the evidence is weak or otherwise inadmissible.

[whomever]

It appears that the victim’s injury was a through-and-through GSW to the lateral aspect of the left leg. It did not result in fracture or neurovascular injury, nor did it require surgery.

I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

"The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/12/dancing-fbi-agent-arrest/

[JRB]

So an FBI agent's career is over, along with any chance of any kind of LE work in the future - and they're charging him with a felony?

I can't help but put myself into both positions - as a new agent that made a very spectacular mistake, and as a guy that got a through and through GSW in a bar from it.

As the new agent I'd have been much more concerned with where that bullet went, as has already been discussed. I would have been frantic about ensuring it didn't hit anyone and rendering aid if it did. Having heard gunshots in a loud nightclub before I can say that yes, you can hear gunshots over the music in a club so I'm sure he knew it had fired, if not only from the recoil.

But as the victim, given that it'll be a fast pace to a full recovery, I can't help but think it's crazy to burn a Federal agent's entire life over something that.
If I had been the GSW recipient in this situation and the GSW was the same simple fast-healing through and through wound as described here, the last thing I'd want is to see a bunch of money getting burned up trying to bury the guy under a felony conviction and ruin his life over it - especially since I can take it to the bank that the man isn't some evil criminal asshole that'll do this kind of thing again.

Same goes for a civil suit. If I didn't have health insurance it'd be nice to have the doctor's bill covered, but I'm not sure that I'd ask for anything more. Shit happens, just because shit happened to me doesn't give me some sort of sanctimonious right to ruin someone's life and line my pockets with taxpayer's money. If anything, I'd just want to see this used as a teachable moment for controlling a dropped weapon, conducting yourself in public while carrying, etc.
Am I just crazy for thinking this way?

Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?


I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

"The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/12/dancing-fbi-agent-arrest/

From what I've put together following this case, they're all going off of the report of the tourniquet and embellishing a little with each re-telling. I haven't heard any official source say an artery was hit, only that the victim was hit in the leg and another patron used a belt as an ad-hoc tourniquet.

[Gadfly]

Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?
.

The state can press charges even if you don't want to. Think of every domestic violence victim. A woman with two black eyes and a bloody nose meekly saying she wont press charges on her husband. The state steeps in at that point and files the charges on behalf of the People of (insert state here). The don't always do it, but they can.


As mentioned earlier in this thread, what actually occurred and what is eventually charged can vary WIDELY depending on the DA or AUSA you happen to be working with. Its a court system, not a Justice system. As mentioned in prior threads, the guy who was swinging a bat at my head was arrested for attempted capitol murder of a peace officer, but was convicted of deadly conduct (class A misdemeanor). The DA made the deal regardless of what I thought. I have had a guy on video offload an 18 wheeler full of dope. He gave a full confession on video and in writing. AUSA says its not enough to charge, seize the dope, let him go. Have found 2 kilos of dope on a warrant, and been told, "2 kilos makes me yawn, call the locals and see if they will charge him."... Had one of our guys cars rammed repeatedly by a crook trying to get away, but the AUSA would not charge him with assaulting the agent because our guy had his seat belt on, and since we drive unmarked cars, you cant prove he knew he was ramming into a cop. If you haven't worked inside the system, you will never understand the office politics in play. The Wire on HBO was the closest I have seen to how management, the courts, and city hall juggle numbers and manipulate crime stats. And even it was not quite right...

What you see charged does NOT always reflect what happened. Sometimes its over charged, but more often, its under charged.

[underhook]

Interesting thought experiment. If he had not discharged the gun when picking it up, would he have been charged with anything?

[CWM11B]

Probably not. I would even go so far to say it probably never would have seen the light of day. Twenty five years ago it would absolutely remained a brief local story. This day and age every damned incident imaginable is an international story hyped to crisis level. I am increasingly coming to the point that I would not mourn (might even cheer) if the internet suddenly ceased to exist.

[Sensei]

I haven't been following the case that closely. The Denver Post is reporting than an artery was hit. Is that erroneous?

"The bullet hit the victim in an artery in his leg, according to previous news reports."

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/12/dancing-fbi-agent-arrest/

I have seen 1 report that the bullet may have hit the victim’s anterior tibial artery. However, all of the other reports indicate that the patient suffered just pain / swelling and did not require surgery. Injuries to this artery often can be managed without non-operatively / do not require repair as long as there are good collaterals. It may pose a problem for the defense in the sense that prompt bleeding control was needed to prevent serious risk from exsanguination. However, this bleeding control could have been achieved with direct pressure instead of a TQ.

Regardless, I’m still not feeling the love on a felony charge.

[Nephrology]

I have seen 1 report that the bullet may have hit the victim’s anterior tibial artery. However, all of the other reports indicate that the patient suffered just pain / swelling and did not require surgery. Injuries to this artery often can be managed without non-operatively / do not require repair as long as there are good collaterals. It may pose a problem for the defense in the sense that prompt bleeding control was needed to prevent serious risk from exsanguination. However, this bleeding control could have been achieved with direct pressure instead of a TQ.

Regardless, I’m still not feeling the love on a felony charge.

Presuming it hit his anterior tib a., I assume it also would have resulted in a tib/fib fracture? Seems hard to hit the artery without hitting bone too

[David C.]

Not likely . Picture of said DA:

http://images.politico.com/global/arena/101028_mccann_376.jpg

Bruce Jenner bleaching his hair now?

[Sensei]

Presuming it hit his anterior tib a., I assume it also would have resulted in a tib/fib fracture? Seems hard to hit the artery without hitting bone too

Not necessarily. He was not described as having a fracture and all of the pictures and videos show him resting his bare leg on his sofa (no splint or cast).

[Coyotesfan97]

Plenty of places dont like the police. It happened to at least three of our guys I know of. I just wrote the businesses off. Someone else will take my money. And the last thing I wanted to do is drink or eat something prepared by someone who hates me because of my job and the uniform I wore.

I much rather know beforehand that the business or people working there are anti police. I’ve walked out of restaurants before ordering when I got bad vibes from the kitchen employees.

[Nephrology]

Not necessarily. He was not described as having a fracture and all of the pictures and videos show him resting his bare leg on his sofa (no splint or cast).

I assume this means we can also conclude it wasn't a personally owned .45 (or his leg woulda been TORE CLEAN OFF)

[BehindBlueI's]

Interesting thought experiment. If he had not discharged the gun when picking it up, would he have been charged with anything?

Dropping a gun isn't illegal, so no. If nobody was hurt, the media wouldn't have cared, and then neither would anyone else.

[ssb]

Also, if the victim didn't want charges filed, would that prevent the DA from filing charges in a case like this?

It does happen. However, it carries with it some risk. As a practical matter, you want your victim to act like a victim when it comes to testimony; furthermore, every negotiation you have with opposing counsel, they're going to hold it over your head about how bad your victim is. It's not exactly fun for anybody involved to subpoena a non-cooperative victim, see them skip the court date, and use the contempt charge and subsequent arrest as a mechanism to get their testimony; if they act as what's known as a hostile witness, we're in the fun position of effectively cross-examining (leading questions to get them to agree/disagree with certain assertions with little/no explanation on their part so we're effectively testifying for them) them through their testimony, which isn't going to come across well at all. That sucks to do in front of a judge for, say, a bond revocation hearing or a VOP. It's almost suicide to do in front of a jury.

The victim doesn't prosecute the case and we do not represent the victim individually, though in my state they have certain rights throughout the process (having the case dismissed is not one of them). Having said all of that, we also make calculations of, "is this really worth it?" and "can I prove this without their cooperation?" when they don't want to prosecute. If one or both of those questions can be answered with "no," my practice is to a) (assuming they can be found) have them fill out a waiver of prosecution affidavit saying they want the case dismissed, or b) (if they cannot be located, either because they're deliberately avoiding contact or because they've genuinely disappeared) make diligent, good faith efforts to locate them and document those efforts before settling/dismissing the case. I've done both of those things more times than I can count.

---

Now, as the pitchforks have been gathered and the torches lit, I am curious if the DA's office/police investigators have information that isn't publicly available. While overcharging is certainly a thing in the criminal justice system -- and without getting into a tit-for-tat of who typically does it in my experience, and with a caveat that I don't know a thing about that particular DA's office culture/habits/track record/etc. -- it is my experience that actual overcharging (and not what a defense attorney may call overcharging) is exception rather than the rule. I will say my concern -- unlike many in this thread -- is not whether he should be convicted of a felony versus a misdemeanor (or any crime at all), but rather whether his charge is fairly supported by the law. Given that there's likely a fair bit of information that is not known at this time, my thought would be that perhaps we ought to pause those pitchforks for a moment and wait and see what else, if anything, comes out.

[Trooper224]

Now, as the pitchforks have been gathered and the torches lit, I am curious if the DA's office/police investigators have information that isn't publicly available. While overcharging is certainly a thing in the criminal justice system -- and without getting into a tit-for-tat of who typically does it in my experience, and with a caveat that I don't know a thing about that particular DA's office culture/habits/track record/etc. -- it is my experience that actual overcharging (and not what a defense attorney may call overcharging) is exception rather than the rule. I will say my concern -- unlike many in this thread -- is not whether he should be convicted of a felony versus a misdemeanor (or any crime at all), but rather whether his charge is fairly supported by the law. Given that there's likely a fair bit of information that is not known at this time, my thought would be that perhaps we ought to pause those pitchforks for a moment and wait and see what else, if anything, comes out.

Except at the federal level, here in my state overcharging is a very common practice. In my opinion, we have an almost criminal lack of oversight by the State AG's office and district and county DA's are left largely to their own devices. The "Let's make a deal so we can clear it off the ledger fast." is the order of the day. Consequently, overcharging is done as a way to intimidate the defendant into taking a plea deal on the actual appropriate charge.

I hate to see the torches and pitchforks of the social media court fire up against this agent. Yes, the young guy made a mistake and a pretty big one, but he's paying for it with a destroyed career and an incident that will follow him far longer than anything else could. I'll hazard a guess and say that we all made pretty big mistakes when we were younger, but many of us did so without the albatross of social media around our necks. There are undoubtedly other, non-legal factors weighing in here: those in charge in all areas of life are running in fear of social media and the twitter gestapo. Colorado's largely leftist, anti-gun, California transplant culture surely thinks the sky is falling over this incident and it's another avenue for them to hate on the cops.

[ssb]

Except at the federal level, here in my state overcharging is a very common practice. In my opinion, we have an almost criminal lack of oversight by the State AG's office and district and county DA's are left largely to their own devices. The "Let's make a deal so we can clear it off the ledger fast." is the order of the day. Consequently, overcharging is done as a way to intimidate the defendant into taking a plea deal on the actual appropriate charge.

I don't know that that's as effective of a tactic as it would initially seem.

As an example, let's say I've got a guy I'd like to put in jail because... well, he's on my shit list. Police pull him over, find two grams of meth in two one-gram bags (>.5 grams is, by statute, seen as for resale in my state) and a scale in the car and $240 in his wallet. I indict him on the B Felony intent to resell charge (depending on the officer and their experience/care, he may well be originally charged as such) rather than the A Misdemeanor simple possession charge. He technically fits the resale statute because of the amount, and the separate bags, the money, and the scale are in theory indicia of resale so I have probable cause (ethical/professional responsibility) to do it.

The reality of that situation is that any defense attorney is going to look at that, laugh, and tell me to give them a misdemeanor or give them a trial date, because unless I get the world's most prosecution-friendly jury and the defense attorney phones it in that day, all I've got is a casual user who -- like apparently everybody who gets pulled over with drugs nowadays -- wants to make sure their dealer didn't screw them and who cashed their paycheck that afternoon. That misdemeanor plea will probably be on their terms as well unless the guy is a complete bag of shit or I've got something else up my sleeve, because I lost credibility with that indictment and they have the leverage of a right to a jury trial.

Now, prosecution is all about leverage -- that I don't dispute at all. Likewise, I don't dispute the motivation to settle things early and often (or the reality that we do that) when we've got a couple hundred case files on our desk. There's a lot that goes into that situation, and yes, some of it is our fault. However, when it comes to pleas, I am not of the opinion -- and it absolutely hasn't been my experience -- that charging bullshit to get a solid lesser is the way to get that leverage.

[Sensei]

A good read on the phenomenon of overcharging:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-everything-is-a-crime/2015/04/08/1929ab88-dd43-11e4-be40-566e2653afe5_story.html?utm_term=.5121e4054bf8

We have effectively weaponized Title 18 so that everyone is a criminal and the State can use prosecutorial discretion to target its enemies.

[Trooper224]

I don't know that that's as effective of a tactic as it would initially seem.

As an example, let's say I've got a guy I'd like to put in jail because... well, he's on my shit list. Police pull him over, find two grams of meth in two one-gram bags (>.5 grams is, by statute, seen as for resale in my state) and a scale in the car and $240 in his wallet. I indict him on the B Felony intent to resell charge (depending on the officer and their experience/care, he may well be originally charged as such) rather than the A Misdemeanor simple possession charge. He technically fits the resale statute because of the amount, and the separate bags, the money, and the scale are in theory indicia of resale so I have probable cause (ethical/professional responsibility) to do it.

The reality of that situation is that any defense attorney is going to look at that, laugh, and tell me to give them a misdemeanor or give them a trial date, because unless I get the world's most prosecution-friendly jury and the defense attorney phones it in that day, all I've got is a casual user who -- like apparently everybody who gets pulled over with drugs nowadays -- wants to make sure their dealer didn't screw them and who cashed their paycheck that afternoon. That misdemeanor plea will probably be on their terms as well unless the guy is a complete bag of shit or I've got something else up my sleeve, because I lost credibility with that indictment and they have the leverage of a right to a jury trial.

Now, prosecution is all about leverage -- that I don't dispute at all. Likewise, I don't dispute the motivation to settle things early and often (or the reality that we do that) when we've got a couple hundred case files on our desk. There's a lot that goes into that situation, and yes, some of it is our fault. However, when it comes to pleas, I am not of the opinion -- and it absolutely hasn't been my experience -- that charging bullshit to get a solid lesser is the way to get that leverage.

I don't think it's an effective tactic, or moral, or ethical. The prevailing attitude seems to be "let's make a deal" and that seems to be primarily used as a means to avoid court time. If the defendant is told, "we'll drop these six charges and only stick you with these two" then they'll assume they're getting off lightly and just plead guilty. I've seen this throughout my career, in the smallest rural courts to the largest district in the state where I now work. Many times it seems as if they'll willingly plead down a homicide to a seat belt violation, just to be rid of it. I'm glad I'm almost out of the game.

[Totem Polar]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/judge-dancing-fbi-agent-accused-in-backflip-gunfire-incident-can-carry-weapon-again/

DENVER -- An FBI agent accused of accidentally dropping and firing his gun while dancing at a Denver nightspot, hitting a bystander in the leg, can carry his weapon again. A judge approved the change to Chase Bishop's release conditions Tuesday.

[Sensei]

I’m glad that he wasn’t drunk and that a plea deal is in the works. Charging him with a felony that carries a 5-year minimum makes me think that the prosecutors are high.

[Lon]

Ohio has a lot of stupid gun laws, but surprisingly enough, we have one that fits this situation pretty well with an appropriate punishment.


2903.14 Negligent assault.
(A) No person shall negligently, by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance as defined in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code, cause physical harm to another or to another's unborn.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of negligent assault, a misdemeanor of the third degree.

[HCM]

I’m glad that he wasn’t drunk and that a plea deal is in the works. Charging him with a felony that carries a 5-year minimum makes me think that the prosecutors are high.

Well, it is Colorado .....

[Sensei]

Ohio has a lot of stupid gun laws, but surprisingly enough, we have one that fits this situation pretty well with an appropriate punishment.

I agree with OH’s method of adjudicating that type of situation. I’d love to ask the Denver DA what they hope to accomplish by sending this man to prison for 5 years? How does it serve the public interest? Is their intent to punish him? Are they trying to prevent this special agent from offending again? Is there a need to make an example out of a never event?

With rare exception, I detest attempts at ruining someone’s life based on a snap decision or a single mistake. I’m not saying there should be no consequences, but split second mistakes such as this are not what is wrong with America.

[willie]

Had I been king in that land I would have taken no action unless G man was drunk, and I would not give a shit how it looked. But, that's just me, a guy who rode up on his dinosaur. Now if he had been twerking.....

[Mike C]

I’m glad that he wasn’t drunk and that a plea deal is in the works. Charging him with a felony that carries a 5-year minimum makes me think that the prosecutors are high.

How do we know what his BAC was? I thought they didn’t release the lab results according to the link posted.

[Sensei]

A different article quoted a more definitive statement from the prosecutor’s office regarding his BAC.