Negligent discharge while holstered?

[wmu12071]

Anyone have an info on this? I would also take thoughts in general. If I HAD to guess I would say maybe it wasn't in the holster all the way because something was in the holster. But that's a guess.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/06/kat-ainsworth/video-holstered-pistol-discharges-negligent-or-accident/

[LittleLebowski]

Edited title for clarity.

[wmu12071]

Edited title for clarity.

Thank you LL, I failed to correct autocorrect.

[1942bull]

Assuming he had a sturdy holster and it appears from the vide he did in the form os a Kydex holster the holster would not be the cause of the accidental discharge. The gun was never hit the ground so dropping could not be the cause. I believe that something has to be in the holster. I suspect he got his tee shirt into the holster when he holstered the gun. While bending the shirt was stretched and pulled against the trigger. The bang.

Two lessons. 1) when carrying IWB place gun into the holster before positioning it inside the waistband. That way nothin gets into,thholster but the gun. 2) appendix Cary at your own risk. Ifmhizmgun had been at three or four o’clock he would have shot the ground not his groin. The man could have died if the bullet had hit his femoral artery. You can need out from thatninjury in three or four minutes. He could have also given him a self induced birth control procedure. Appendix carry requires absolute attention. To details. I am verbexperienced with handguns. I never will appendix carry.

[beenalongtime]

Is this the new Weinstein way to get women to look at your groin?

[1942bull]

Guns do not go off by themselves unless they are dropped and have a poorly constructed trigger mechanism. The man is carrying AIWB in a Kydex or,polymer holster. That is a tight fit and not likely to allow A foreign object to enter. So here is my guess. He placed the pistol IWB and then holstered the gun. In doing so he pulled his tee shirt into the holster. When he bent over it put tension on the tee short and BANG.

If that happened happened carrying at 3or 4 o’clock the bullet would have missed him. He could,have hit his femoral artery and bled out in as little as three minutes. He could could,have taken care of birth control needs too. AIWB Requires the utmost care. I never do it.

[RevolverRob]

Did she go grab a tourniquet?

And I think it was a shirt tail.

[olstyn]

I think it was a shirt tail.

Pretty hard to tell for sure from the video, but Occam's razor agrees with you; the only other reasonable possibility that comes to mind is modified gun.

[wmu12071]

Double tap.

[wmu12071]

Did she go grab a tourniquet?

And I think it was a shirt tail.

I watched it back again with more time. It does look like he clears his shirt then for whatever reason let's it go to do something else with the holster and his shirt falls. When he pulls the gun out there is definitely more shirt length.

Good on the female in the room for what looks like a tourniquet and staying calm.

[RevolverRob]

Man this one is tough, because he looks the gun into the holster. I see he is wearing a separate undershirt, maybe that’s what got caught? The other thing is, he goes to top the mag off with the gun in holster. I wonder if when he shifted the gun removing and reinserting the mag, that’s when the shirt got caught?

I’m really inclined to say this was a wardrobe malfunction, because 1) Modded gun seems more likely to go off when he chambers a round. 2) he was finger banging the gun 30-seconds prior. 3) 99% of IWB and AIWB NDs are clothing related with reholstering having happened in the previous 60 secobds or so.

[GardoneVT]

It seems his shirt was the culprit. The Big Clue is that his gun doesn’t fire until he bent over- so whatever piece of his shirt(or strings thereof) that was in the holster was put under tension at that moment. Boom.

[David S.]

Huge "Atta Girl" for having a tourniquet. It probably saved his life.

ETA: Holy cow, why did i start reading the comments? I'm dumber.

[S Jenks]

I’ve never seen a G Code in person, will the plastic belt clip fit in a 43’s trigger guard?

[Qaz98]

Interesting.

I love the idea of non black kydex holsters.

Here is another ND that is less difficult to decipher. Small of the back? Not holstered? Less likely with a TDA? And a lot of other stuff.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/skbaer/fbi-agent-accidentally-shot-man-dancing

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[BehindBlueI's]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on an aftermarket trigger. One that's a bit wider. When he bends over, his abdomen puts pressure on the grip of the gun pushing down on it, the trigger sticks on the inside of the holster were it's not molded for the extra width, trigger stops moving, gun doesn't, bang.

T-shirt doesn't make sense, his undershirt is tucked in and he looks the gun into the holster, I don't see any way enough cloth could get in to reach the trigger. Bending over forward would also make the undershirt more slack in the front, not taunt. Top shirt is obviously not in holster. Perhaps a foreign object in the holster that he didn't see, but since he did look the gun in I'm going to go with modified gun as my most likely scenario.

[M2CattleCo]

Where would one apply a tourniquet in this situation? Around the waist?

[BehindBlueI's]

Where would one apply a tourniquet in this situation? Around the waist?

Depends on where he's hit. If it's in the crease of the leg or further up, wound packing is the "tourniquet". Sort of like a tourniquet on the inside.

https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/Bleeding-Control/articles/63361048-How-to-pack-a-severely-bleeding-wound/

[YVK]

Where would one apply a tourniquet in this situation? Around the waist?

Excellent question. Depends how high the entry is. Really, the best thing is to lay him down and apply occlusive pressure directly on the artery high in the groin.

[Sigfan26]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on an aftermarket trigger. One that's a bit wider. When he bends over, his abdomen puts pressure on the grip of the gun pushing down on it, the trigger sticks on the inside of the holster were it's not molded for the extra width, trigger stops moving, gun doesn't, bang.



There are a couple companies that maintain such minimal safety tab engagement with the frame, I could see that.


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[YVK]

I looked it over several times, and it seems obvious to me, between his T shirt being tucked in all around the waist other than very front, and huge free end of it coming out of his pants when he throws his gun down (how about that part?).

[fixer]

Wow that is tough to watch. I am thinking this is a hardware failure of some type. I can't see any fault in the holstering technique. I mean maybe that cover garment could have been pulled up a tiny bit more. Either the holster folded or buckled or the gun had a modified trigger that allowed the sear and fpb to be defeated.

Looking at the holster on the manuf. web it looks like the trigger guard area sweeps inward toward the trigger much more than other designs I've seen. Depending on the elasticity of the material (can't see exactly if this is true kydex) the trigger area could deform if put into compression.

https://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/incog-iwb-holster-system/

ETA: looked around and can see that this is a true kydex.

I'm leaning now more towards a bubba'd trigger or swiss cheese lining up perfectly to get the under garment bunched up in the holster.

It could also be the holster hardware was loose and got into the trigger area.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c3/f3/e0/c3f3e03e00d656fba8e18bf09bafe478--tactical-life-tactical-gear.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

It's really hard to tell what happened, but here's what I saw.

-It looks like the guy sweeps his hand several times before holstering.
-He is talking to his buddy while chambering and holstering.
-He appears casual when he chambers the gun. He flicks and releases the slide.
-My armchair QB read is: not a firearms expert, or maybe his hands were sweaty.
-He holsters slowly, which is good.
-There was something going on during the holstering where he adjusted his pants.
-The t-shirt looks pretty tight. It's hard to see how it could have been fouled in the trigger guard.
-Possibly loose boxer shorts?

Anyway, good lesson for us all to treat every time we holster as a life-safety event.

[JohnO]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on an aftermarket trigger. One that's a bit wider. When he bends over, his abdomen puts pressure on the grip of the gun pushing down on it, the trigger sticks on the inside of the holster were it's not molded for the extra width, trigger stops moving, gun doesn't, bang.


How about this? Aftermarket trigger with terrible engagement between Cruciform & Striker. Cruciform lives in the frame Striker lives in the Slide. The action of bending over puts pressure on gun in such a way that enough separation is achieved between slide and frame to allow the Striker to release. While not fully cocked the Striker had enough energy to detonate the primer.

The last time I trained with Mike Pannone he wanted to know if anyone was shooting a gun with an aftermarket trigger installed. Mike stated that recently he had witnessed a Glock that fired spontaneously with no finger in the trigger guard. Upon inspection of this aftermarket trigger Mike said it had at best 3% engagement.

[Shoresy]

Where would one apply a tourniquet in this situation? Around the waist?


Excellent question. Depends how high the entry is. Really, the best thing is to lay him down and apply occlusive pressure directly on the artery high in the groin.

There are products designed specifically for that application. Most of us would not have them readily accessible, and the technique YVK is likely the best go-to. FWIW - I haven't had the chance to test this myself on an actual bleed, it was related by several SOF medics during a TCCC course - a Nalgene fits about perfectly in the inguinal crease and can assist in maintaining pressure. Other similarly sized/shaped objects with decent rigidity may also be helpful in a similar manner, depending on what's around/available.

[fixer]

Possible also the holster itself may have been bubba'd...

[Sigfan26]

The last time I trained with Mike Pannone he wanted to know if anyone was shooting a gun with an aftermarket trigger installed. Mike stated that recently he had witnessed a Glock that fired spontaneously with no finger in the trigger guard. Upon inspection of this aftermarket trigger Mike said it had at best 3% engagement.

This brings up another good point. Any time you change ANY component in a Glock, you should make sure to do all safety checks (including installation of an inspection plate and checking cruciform engagement). This applies even with Glock OEM components.


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[RevolverRob]

It appears voodoo_man did some testing of the INCOG http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/07/g-code-incog-eclipse.html?m=1 - and had a couple of retention issues. I wonder if the gun popped loose slightly and rocked back and forth to cause the discharge, when he bent over?

[BJXDS]

My spider senses are tingling, something just doesn't look right. But if it is real, I would love to hear what actually caused this.

[Cheap Shot]

I looked it over several times, and it seems obvious to me, between his T shirt being tucked in all around the waist other than very front, and huge free end of it coming out of his pants when he throws his gun down (how about that part?).

Yeah, noticed that also. Could have potentially made things much worse.

[Sigfan26]

My spider senses are tingling, something just doesn't look right. But if it is real, I would love to hear what actually caused this.

I’m getting that same feeling the more times I watch the video.


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[ST911]

Anyone have an info on this? I would also take thoughts in general. If I HAD to guess I would say maybe it wasn't in the holster all the way because something was in the holster. But that's a guess.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/06/kat-ainsworth/video-holstered-pistol-discharges-negligent-or-accident/

Something is off.
Anonymous. No lead in, no additional context.
Victim's right hand is out of view under the shelf at moment of discharge.
Shot, grasps L leg, moves, L leg loads and bears weight (look at right foot). Lack of any apparent blood isn't definitive, but noted.
Woman wearing gloves behind register, glances across room almost expectantly, startle is off, movement is off, moves to aid bag rather that to victim could be practiced or scripted.
Minimal reaction or startle from older guy.
Could be legit. Doesn't look "right."

[Sigfan26]

Something is off.
Anonymous. No lead in, no additional context.
Victim's right hand is out of view under the shelf at moment of discharge.
Shot, grasps L leg, moves, L leg loads and bears weight (look at right foot). Lack of any apparent blood isn't definitive, but noted.
Woman wearing gloves behind register, glances across room almost expectantly, startle is off, movement is off, moves to aid bag rather that to victim could be practiced or scripted.
Minimal reaction or startle from older guy.
Could be legit. Doesn't look "right."

I also find it odd that the shop appears very small, yet has color camera with fantastic audio. It says through and through, but the whit flooring shows no signs (it remains unchanged). Also, the dog in the background seems to be reacting to the screaming, not the gun shot.


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[pangloss]

Yeah, noticed that also. Could have potentially made things much worse.If all is as claimed, the gun almost certainly didn't cycle and had an empty brass in the chamber after it fired. Nevertheless, I agree that throwing guns is generally a bad idea.

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[Totem Polar]

My spider senses are tingling, something just doesn't look right. But if it is real, I would love to hear what actually caused this.

I had this thought, as well. Training video excerpt that leaked out without context?

[BehindBlueI's]

Looks legit to me, but anything could be staged I guess. I'm not sure what the pay off would be to do so.

I've watched a lot of surveillance video of real shootings. People don't generally run around like they are on fire flailing their arms over their head. A surprising amount go on about their tasks, either in denial or so deep in the OODA loop they aren't making any new decisions. Certain neighborhoods just get their cell phones out to video the guy die. Blood doesn't normally spurt out or instantly soak through the clothes like on TV. It takes time.

[Clusterfrack]

Deleted

[fixer]

watched this on my phone for a better resolution...I noticed at the very end he is digging something out (and also throws it)...possible extra mag? Why is it so far down into the pants? You can see gun, then holster, then he struggles to rip something else in his kit out. weird.

[ST911]

No one thing about it is over the top. GSWs don't always bleed much, if at all. High quality A/V is cheap and common. Humans behave unexpectedly. The combination is a little wonky for me.

[Sigfan26]

No one thing about it is over the top. GSWs don't always bleed much, if at all. High quality A/V is cheap and common. Humans behave unexpectedly. The combination is a little wonky for me.

Agreed. It isn’t one thing. It’s everything combined.


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[M2CattleCo]

The holster could have cracked/broke and pushed on the trigger.

A bending over discharge has always been a fear of mine as everything does get in a bind in that position.

I bent the cylinder axle on J-Frame carrying AIWB a long time ago.

[JCS]

I messed around during dry fire with my g43 in a DSG holster trying to see if a t shirt alone could discharge the gun (obviously the gun was empty). I went as far as wrapping the shirt around the trigger and I couldn’t get it to happen. The SCD didn’t even budge to indicate it moved the trigger at all. Idk how a t shirt could depress the trigger safety tab as well. This experiment was hardly scientific but I don’t believe it’s possible for a t shirt to discharge a stock Glock.

My noob guess is an aftermarket trigger.

[underhook]

Has this been verified at legit? I noticed the women who came to his aid already had the gloves on. His also positioned himself perfectly in the camera frame.

[Dismas316]

I messed around during dry fire with my g43 in a DSG holster trying to see if a t shirt alone could discharge the gun (obviously the gun was empty). I went as far as wrapping the shirt around the trigger and I couldn’t get it to happen. The SCD didn’t even budge to indicate it moved the trigger at all. Idk how a t shirt could depress the trigger safety tab as well. This experiment was hardly scientific but I don’t believe it’s possible for a t shirt to discharge a stock Glock.

My noob guess is an aftermarket trigger.

Did the same with my JMC holster and got the same result as you. Only way I could get the trigger pressed was by pulling my shirt that was through the trigger. Bending over didn’t do anything in terms of depressing the trigger.

[Duke]

How about this? Aftermarket trigger with terrible engagement between Cruciform & Striker. Cruciform lives in the frame Striker lives in the Slide. The action of bending over puts pressure on gun in such a way that enough separation is achieved between slide and frame to allow the Striker to release. While not fully cocked the Striker had enough energy to detonate the primer.

The last time I trained with Mike Pannone he wanted to know if anyone was shooting a gun with an aftermarket trigger installed. Mike stated that recently he had witnessed a Glock that fired spontaneously with no finger in the trigger guard. Upon inspection of this aftermarket trigger Mike said it had at best 3% engagement.


I love Noner.

And I have no doubt there are some pretty sketchy aftermarket Glock triggers out there.

I do - however - have great curiosity as to how 3% trigger engagement was measured at a range before/during a class

[ST911]

Unless you've got special mics, engagement should really be discussed in quarters or thirds. In the case of some aftermarket dreck, you can use "by a hair" too.

[JohnO]

I love Noner.

And I have no doubt there are some pretty sketchy aftermarket Glock triggers out there.

I do - however - have great curiosity as to how 3% trigger engagement was measured at a range before/during a class

I'm going to hazard a guess and say it was Mike's estimation based on what he saw during a visual inspection and based on the gun's ability to fire without a finger anywhere near the trigger.

[RevolverRob]

You know what usually won't cause an ND in an AIWB holster?

1911s
TDAs of all stripes (Beretta, Sig, HK)
LEM HKs

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c80849609e84b7b06cf717b082bfb421/tenor.gif?itemid=5195602

[BehindBlueI's]

You know what usually won't cause an ND in an AIWB holster?

1911s
TDAs of all stripes (Beretta, Sig, HK)
LEM HKs

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c80849609e84b7b06cf717b082bfb421/tenor.gif?itemid=5195602

USUALLY none of them will. There are various levels of forgiveness for sure, more margin for error before bad things happen.

There is, however, a constant law in the universe that says once you've made something idiot-proof, someone builds a better idiot.

[HCountyGuy]

It appears voodoo_man did some testing of the INCOG http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/07/g-code-incog-eclipse.html?m=1 - and had a couple of retention issues. I wonder if the gun popped loose slightly and rocked back and forth to cause the discharge, when he bent over?

After reading VDM’s take on the Incog, I’m at a similar conclusion:

When he holstered, part of one of his shirts got caught up in the holster and trigger guard. When guy went to bend over, the exposed front of the firearm pushed against his thigh and the gun started to come out from that. Then enter guy’s stomach pushing the gun back down. The material that was caught up inside the trigger guard was tensioned by the movement of the gun going back in to the holster and BANG!

[GrayCheetah]

This is interesting. I notice he put a magazine in the pistol, then holstered it carefully. But he loaded another magazine and placed it where? he's left handed but i can't see what he did with that extra magazine.

[GrayCheetah]

After reading VDM’s take on the Incog, I’m at a similar conclusion:

When he holstered, part of one of his shirts got caught up in the holster and trigger guard. When guy went to bend over, the exposed front of the firearm pushed against his thigh and the gun started to come out from that. Then enter guy’s stomach pushing the gun back down. The material that was caught up inside the trigger guard was tensioned by the movement of the gun going back in to the holster and BANG!

agreed... his outer shirt got left in the trigger guard and pulled up his shirt just before he bent down. That increased the tension enough that when he bent down "POW"

[ST911]

Has there been any other information about this incident of credible origin that contains particulars of the place, event, and players?

[Sigfan26]

Has there been any other information about this incident of credible origin that contains particulars of the place, event, and players?

I've only seen it reported by TTAG.

[Matt Helm]

USUALLY none of them will. There are various levels of forgiveness for sure, more margin for error before bad things happen.

There is, however, a constant law in the universe that says once you've made something idiot-proof, someone builds a better idiot.

The FBI employed that candidate and actually gave that "Better Idiot " multiple paychecks "... Haha.

[Die FliperMas]

The Glock cannot fire without manual intervention by the operator. This intervention may be unintentional, but the Glock cannot have its striker spring compressed and sear released without depressing the trigger fully. It is mechanically impossible for the Glock to fire by itself. It is possible for a round to go off spontaneously but in 40 years of training people in the defensive use of firearms I have never seen this happen.

It is not clear exactly what happens in this video. It appears that the operator properly holstered his weapon. It appears that he does not have an obstruction in the holster or a loose garment that gets into the trigger guard. It appears that he inserts the pistol fully into the holster. It appears that he did everything correctly.

If I were investigating this in preparation for giving expert testimony (something I do) I would need more data before I could draw any conclusions or offer any root cause analysis. Any conclusions drawn from the little information contained in this video are not likely to be correct.

Lastly, it is possible that this has been staged. Any good video editor could have put the gunshot sound into the mix at the proper moment. The 9mm round is capable of penetrating the man’s lower abdomen/groin and would therefore have hit something else in the gun shop. There is no evidence of the bullet exiting the man’s body.

[jellydonut]

I agree that this looks like a training scenario, with the way the bystanders react and how the tourniquet applicator is going through the motions and the way they talk to each other.

This really needs a source beyond an 'anonymous reader in Nevada'.

[farscott]

The Glock cannot fire without manual intervention by the operator. This intervention may be unintentional, but the Glock cannot have its striker spring compressed and sear released without depressing the trigger fully. It is mechanically impossible for the Glock to fire by itself. It is possible for a round to go off spontaneously but in 40 years of training people in the defensive use of firearms I have never seen this happen.

In general, I agree with the above. There are some specific instances when Glock pistols can fire without the trigger being fully depressed. The "six part upgrade" was the result of one. There was also a manufacturing issue with some Glock 36 pistols.


GLOCK, INC. Technical Bulletin #920403

April 1, 1992

Glock, Inc. announces a production change of the firing pin safety system. This new firing pin safety system has been installed in all production Glock pistols since November, 1991. A voluntary upgrade is being offered to maintain the Glock tradition of ensuring that all of our pistoils are up to the latest standards in 21st century Goock technology.

Most importantly, the components of the new firing pin safety system are not interchangable with the components of the old systam and Glock will always strive towards maintaining this feature of interchangability while working to ensure future interchangability.

The upgraded firing pin safety system consists of: the firing pin, firing pin safety, the extractor, the spring loaded bearing and the trigger bar. The upgraded system is applicable only to Glock pistols with the following serial number ranges :

Glock 17 - alpha prefix AA - WF
Glock 21 - alpha prefixes through XL
Glock 19 - alpha prefixes through WJ Glock 22 - alpha prefixes through YA
Glock 20 - alpha prefixes thorugh WW Glock 23 - alpha prefixes through SK

The upgraded firing pin safety has a new surface finish making it nearly 100% saltwater corrosion resistant. Also, after rigorous and extensive testing, the new system proves to be more durable and has a longer useful life. Here, as always, Glock is working toward maintaining its standard of perfection.


Glock prides itself in the quality of its pistol and the quality of its manufacturing process. Despite our high standards, however, it has recently come to our attention through our quality testing efforts that a limited number of Glock Model 36 pistols may have an abnormality that could possibly interfere with the operation of the Glock trigger safety. The affected pistols require a simple but necessary modification to ensure the trigger safety operates as intended. IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR THE SAFE OPERATION OF YOUR GLOCK 36 THAT THIS MODIFICATION BE MADE AT GLOCK'S U.S. HEADQUARTERS IN SMYRNA, GA.

If you possess a Glock Model 36 with a serial number in the ranges below PLEASE IMMEDIATELY UNLOAD THE FIREARM AND CLEAR THE CHAMBER. Deliver the pistol to :
1. A UPS Hub (not a store)
2. The place of business where you purchased the firearm of a dealer in your area with a daily UPS pick up.

***Always have the package boxed and labeled with the preprinted return label attached***
If you have any problems with this UPS shipping procedure, please contact Costumer Service toll free at 1-800-701-1558.

Glock will quickly perform the modification and return your pistol to you at no cost. The serial number of your Glock 36 can be found on the silver serial number plate located on the underside of the frame towards the front of the pistol.

The affected serial number ranges are:
GLM 000-999
GRC 500-999

While the pistol in the video is likely affected by neither recall, blanket statements only need one exemplar described to be proven false.

Second, as noted by others, aftermarket triggers, especially those that attempt to reduce pre-travel, can compromise the firing pin safety by effectively deactivating it when the trigger is fully forward. Once the drop safety has been compromised, a bit of slide movement relative to the frame is all that is needed for the striker to be released.

[BehindBlueI's]

The Glock cannot fire without manual intervention by the operator.

*may not apply to modified Glocks.

As far as penetration, angles matter. A 9mm deeply angled down isn't going to come out, it's going to continue in the thigh meat. Should it hit the pelvis or femur, it's unlikely to through-and-through as well.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

You know what usually won't cause an ND in an AIWB holster?

1911s
TDAs of all stripes (Beretta, Sig, HK)
LEM HKs

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c80849609e84b7b06cf717b082bfb421/tenor.gif?itemid=5195602

DA REVOLVERS? REVOLVERROB?


civiliandefender.com

[cold-beer]

This video is exactly why I only carry DA and DA/SA pistols if I'm going to put a pistol anywhere in my waist or pockets.
While an accident like this can be easily avoided with any pistol, it just goes to show you that **** happens.

Glocks are great guns, but I would NEVER carry one pointed at my best friend all day. This guy is really lucky. He could have easily severed the femoral artery and bled out or even worse, he could have got an unplanned sex change:eek:

Edit
After watching this again, it looks staged to me. Maybe it's some type of training video???

[Die FliperMas]

Thank you for clarifying this. I apologize for not mentioning in my previous post that my comments apply only to factory specification Glocks. Once a gun has been modified then its operational characteristics cannot be fully understood without rigorous and exhaustive testing including destructive testing. Even after all possible testing, the potential for "surprises" still exists and when the modified gun is exposed to extensive field use will likely manifest.

/* Solo mi dos centavos vale la pena */

[Sigfan26]

*may not apply to modified Glocks.

As far as penetration, angles matter. A 9mm deeply angled down isn't going to come out, it's going to continue in the thigh meat. Should it hit the pelvis or femur, it's unlikely to through-and-through as well.

The article does say the wound was a through and through.

[Die FliperMas]

Thank you for clarifying this. I apologize for not mentioning in my previous post that my comments apply only to factory specification Glocks. Once a gun has been modified then its operational characteristics cannot be fully understood without rigorous and exhaustive testing including destructive testing. Even after all possible testing, the potential for "surprises" still exists and when the modified gun is exposed to extensive field use will likely manifest.

/* Solo mi dos centavos vale la pena */

Once upon a time I wrote some software for a Real Time Telemetry Launch System used for the Titan IV Expendable Launch Vehicles. My code passed all tests and ATP's and was deployed. Another engineer was working on a similar system for another program and asked if he could use my code. I gladly obliged him and gave him the source code I wrote. Two days later he approached me and stated that my code "didn't work". I asked him if he changed it. After evading the question for a while he grudgingly admitted that he had modified my code.

My response:
"It's your code now!"

I think the same could be true of firearms. A factory spec Glock is a Glock. A user modified Glock is no longer a Glock, it is now a <your name here> gun.

Thoughts?

[Irelander]

A properly employed SCD could have alerted the user that something was amiss.

Looks like the woman had gloves on already. Was she cleaning a weapon or something?

[RevolverRob]

DA REVOLVERS? REVOLVERROB?


civiliandefender.com

My apologies Doc.

I assumed everyone was already aware of the superiority of cylinder fed double-action weapons. Understanding that their accuracy, reliability, concealability, and of course safety were second to none.

[NH Shooter]

Staged or not, this re-enforces my decision that I will only AIWB a pistol with an external hammer or a cocking indicator. It also makes me appreciate all the more the quality and design of the JMCK AIWB holster.

[arcfide]

I've been thinking about this for a few days and watching the video, and as others observed, I don't see any real fault in "technique" here by the normal rules. It's a slow holster, and he watches the gun and holster area. The shirts both seem to be out of the holster, and looking at the design of the Incode it seems that at least the normal expectation of how a shirt can get into the holster don't apply here. In short, everything *seems* fine. I would easily believe this was a staged training video or the like.

I would accept the explanation of some sort of aftermarket parts or trigger work that messed with the safeties of the gun.

However, if I were guessing, the most likely explanation to me would be a combination of the T-shirts and the design of the INCOG holster, but not in the standard way. He seemed to have watched out for all of the standard "T-shirt wraps in the trigger guard" sort of concerns. I don't think that was a problem. However, the INCOG design appears to have a very open bottom. There's plenty of room for a T-shirt to get into the muzzle/front sight side of the holster and get tied up with things there.

If he got enough material in there, he would not have been able to see it from the top, and might not have been paying enough attention to feel it. The result could have been either a partially holstered or weakly holstered gun. As he walks, the material could have pushed upwards on the gun and caused the gun to unholster a little bit, clearing the trigger guard. At that point, when he bends down, there's more than enough force and positioning for the trigger guard edge to catch on the trigger and depress the trigger while his chest and stomach push the gun back down.

In this case, that would mean that there was no obstruction in the trigger guard, but an obstruction on the bottom of the holster which affected the function. This seems to be the only other reasonable explanation that jives with the video outside of an aftermarket modification.

[Sigfan26]

Does anyone have any form of confirmation that this is real (aside from the TTAG post)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

However, if I were guessing, the most likely explanation to me would be a combination of the T-shirts and the design of the INCOG holster, but not in the standard way. He seemed to have watched out for all of the standard "T-shirt wraps in the trigger guard" sort of concerns. I don't think that was a problem. However, the INCOG design appears to have a very open bottom. There's plenty of room for a T-shirt to get into the muzzle/front sight side of the holster and get tied up with things there.



When I first read this thread and looked at the INCOG holster, the open bottom immediately caught my attention too. That kind of design might be OK for OWB, but I wouldn't feel comfortable using that holster AIWB. This was exactly what I meant about the design of the JMCK AIWB holster in my previous post; complete coverage with limited opening for the ingress of clothing, and the way the holster is formed allows smooth holstering where any obstruction would be immediately noticed.

[GJM]

I think a bunch of folks would like to know exactly what happened here as the combination of a Glock 43, a mainstream Kydex appendix holster, and reasonable holstering technique would not be expected to yield this result.

[JATA]

Oh well this is just great! After 20 yr of just stuffin a chunk in my waistband, I finally come around to the idea of holsters (been using one for over a week) and now ya show me this. Starting to think mini me was safer before J/k :D

Just a guess - the poster who said wide trigger shoe might be on to something.

We know this is legit? If so, yea kudos to the chick holdin it together. She seems like an asset to have around.

[NPV]

Is it possible, with the INCOG being and open bottom holster, that when he bent over he pushed/forced the gun past the the normal holstered position engaging the trigger as it was pushed further into the holster?

[TheNewbie]

Is it possible, with the INCOG being and open bottom holster, that when he bent over he pushed/forced the gun past the the normal holstered position engaging the trigger as it was pushed further into the holster?

That's an interesting thought.

I wish we could know the full details on this.

[NPV]

Just thinking out loud here but if the retention on the holster was adjusted to be very slight (not sure if the INCOG has adjustable retention) then I would think that would be pretty feasible.

[Prdator]

The "inside" info I have is it's believed to have been a draw cord that got into the holster. I also believe the holster might have been a factor as well.

[Pistol Pete 10]

I do carry revolvers mostly. The semi that I carry once in a while has a safety on it. I recently bought my first Glock. The trigger on it isn't super light, about 6 lb best I can measure it but it's quite a bit less than any revolver and a whole lot shorter than a revolver or Beretta, Sig etc. I may decide to carry the Glock but NOT in the front of my pants, not even in a IWB holster.
Guns are dangerous, best be careful.

[Mark D]

The "inside" info I have is it's believed to have been a draw cord that got into the holster. I also believe the holster might have been a factor as well.

I haven't re-watched the video today, but I thought he was just wearing two T-shirts. Was there another garment with a draw cord?

[Drdan]

Dos it not bother anyone that he opens his pants then removes the holster? What is it attached to?

[Bucky]

The Glock cannot fire without manual intervention by the operator.


As mentioned, doesn’t apply to modified Glocks. Also, didn’t NYPD have a few early Gen 2 G19s that would go off when racking the slides?

[Jason M]

I haven't re-watched the video today, but I thought he was just wearing two T-shirts. Was there another garment with a draw cord?

There are more than a few brands and styles of outdoor style pants that have drawstrings inside the waistband. Ex Oficio is an example.

[David S.]

The drawstring makes more sense to me than something coming up from the bottom.

Any idea what kind of pants he's wearing? The big grey patches below his knees: motorcycle pants of some sort?

[Die FliperMas]

As mentioned, doesn’t apply to modified Glocks. Also, didn’t NYPD have a few early Gen 2 G19s that would go off when racking the slides?

Don't know about the NYPD Glocks but if they did fire after the operator reciprocated the slide it was still manual intervention that caused the discharge.

As stated earlier a modified Glock is no longer a Glock it is a <your name here> gun. I am specifically referring to the modification of the Glock's internal mechanisms. Changing the Glock factory "Sight Hole Protectors" with aftermarket sights does not change the internal operations of the gun. Changing or modifying the internal mechanisms of the Glock invalidate the design parameters of the pistol and make it into a <your name here> gun.

So, take any factory specification Glock, load it with a full magazine and a live round in the chamber, place it on a table with the muzzle pointing in a relatively "Safe Direction" and wait for it to spontaneously fire the chambered cartridge. It may be a long wait though.

I still have doubts about the validity of this video.

One thing it has revealed is how divided we are as serious operators and every day carriers of firearms and weapons. Many comments condemn the AIWB carry method of carry, the carrying of semi auto pistols, the carrying of pistols that have no external manual safety, the carrying of Glocks and more. Because we all must fit our firearms into our lives somehow and because our lives have many variables to manage, it is probable that one universal solution to carrying a gun is just a unicorn - looks cute but doesn't exist in nature. There are best practices for each carry method and by mastering these best practices and diligently incorporating them into our everyday operations we make carrying firearms as "Safe" as possible. Perhaps we should all focus on mastering these best practices and championing those who choose to go forth armed and prepared. We would also serve ourselves well to discourage bad practices through education and example. We will not serve ourselves well by perpetuating the media hysteria of "A gun can go off at any time" or that "The Glock is an inherently unsafe pistol"... we all know the media's standard BS rhetoric. Let's not play into it.

Lastly, let's not let one sketchy video purportedly showing how dangerous Glocks and AIWB carry is become our guiding principle. AIWB is a valid carry method and properly performed is as safe as any other valid carry method. The processes and procedures for firearms carry are all written in blood. We violate them at our own peril. Putting you gun in a waistband without a holster, in a pocket without any protection for the trigger, in a purse not designed for carry and without any protection for the trigger are all examples of bad carry practices. Let's address all bad practices and, as best as we can, educate those who are receptive to knowledge. A person who already knows everything cannot receive any further education. QED.

Getting back to the video, if the gun involved is a factory spec Glock, and if the holster is a proper AIWB holster, and if the operator did everything correctly, and if the Glock spontaneously discharged for no reason, all gun owners are in immanent danger. I have watched this low quality video in slow motion 20 times looking for the telltale event that one could point to and say "ah ha!" but have been unable to find any explanation for the events supposedly represented in the video. Every time I have watched this video my BS warning indicator has illuminated brightly along with its associated audible alert. It is interesting that since this video initially surfaced we have not received any further details about the events. Fascinating, Captain!

C4OQ anyone? ( C omments, C oncerns, Cr iticisms, Complaints, O bjections, or Questions)

[JohnO]

I started looking at some of the comments posted under the video on the Truth About Guns website and ran across this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/.


https://www.facebook.com/truexodus/videos/1510683608967544/

[Die FliperMas]

Thank you for pointing this out. His whole response to the ND bothers me.

[Burn2shine]

I started looking at some of the comments posted under the video on the Truth About Guns website and ran across this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/.


https://www.facebook.com/truexodus/videos/1510683608967544/
There is a frayed hole in the back of that holster, no idea if it is pulling the trigger though.

[Bucky]

As stated earlier a modified Glock is no longer a Glock it is a <your name here> gun.

I disagree. It's still a GLOCK. Just because I put Trijicon Night Sights on a GLOCK 19, doesn't change it to a Bucky 19. (Which is unfortunately, 'cause I'd like to cash in on the royalties ;) ).

[UNM1136]

The "inside" info I have is it's believed to have been a draw cord that got into the holster. I also believe the holster might have been a factor as well.

Uncle Pat used to talk about "looking, without seeing". If that is the case than Pat's commentary may be dead nuts on.

I still have no problem with AIWB, with my 1911, my glock, or my issue M&P. A great confidence builder was ECQC, where we AIWB'd sim guns mexican carry, doing retention, draws, and whatnot. Another was watching TLG running his Gen 4 Glocks at AFHF when he was carrying exclusively AIWB. What I have done, is gone back and checked my carry guns with my holsters in fit around the trigger guard, especially my Gen 4 G17 which has a Suarez Patrol Trigger and ignition parts. All my guns pass, and the glock passes the armorer's visual check for engagement (75+%), and an eyeglass screwdriver inserted onto the cruciform plate and pushed down will not allow the striker to release. To be fair, even when running a 1911 in an SME holster, every time I holstered I hooked my strong thumb onto the face of the hammer, not enough to pull the hammer hooks away from the sear, but enough to block the forward travel of the hammer in the event everything else went wrong. And I am an "Off Target, On Safe" kinda guy. It would be a lie to say that I always have looked my gun into the holster, but I do have to occasionally holster without looking, and I am confident that I can do it. On the square range, I always look the gun in, and when dry firing I reholster without looking the gun in.

Your mileage may vary.

pat

[Irelander]

I started looking at some of the comments posted under the video on the Truth About Guns website and ran across this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/.


https://www.facebook.com/truexodus/videos/1510683608967544/

That looks like a T-Rex Sidecar holster.

[Die FliperMas]

As stated earlier a modified Glock is no longer a Glock it is a <your name here> gun. I am specifically referring to the modification of the Glock's internal mechanisms. Changing the Glock factory "Sight Hole Protectors" with aftermarket sights does not change the internal operations of the gun. Changing or modifying the internal mechanisms of the Glock invalidate the design parameters of the pistol and make it into a <your name here> gun.

I did clarify this in my post that changing sights does not make your gun "modified". Changing the internals does however change the gun and once done you can expect the manufacturer to distance themselves from any potential liability or exposure resulting form a user modified gun. Again, this does not pertain to changing the sights. Royalties would be great! I wish we could all get a share of the pie.

[Mark D]

There are more than a few brands and styles of outdoor style pants that have drawstrings inside the waistband. Ex Oficio is an example.

Thanks. Good point.

[HCountyGuy]

Eh, nevermind

[critter]

I started looking at some of the comments posted under the video on the Truth About Guns website and ran across this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/.


From the article: "...But the issue was that the retaining safety pin walked out about 1/8” during shooting. "

It this referencing a roll pin through the trigger shoe? (I'm unfamiliar with ZEV triggers, but the Overwatch I have has two roll pins through the shoe, inside the trigger guard)

[Sigfan26]

From the article: "...But the issue was that the retaining safety pin walked out about 1/8” during shooting. "

It this referencing a roll pin through the trigger shoe? (I'm unfamiliar with ZEV triggers, but the Overwatch I have has two roll pins through the shoe, inside the trigger guard)

Zev uses screws, IIRC

[RevolverRob]

From the article: "...But the issue was that the retaining safety pin walked out about 1/8” during shooting. "

It this referencing a roll pin through the trigger shoe? (I'm unfamiliar with ZEV triggers, but the Overwatch I have has two roll pins through the shoe, inside the trigger guard)

The article is poorly worded - but I believe a pin backed out and was wearing a hole into the kydex. The raised portion of the kydex is what tripped the trigger.

Long story short - if you want a light trigger on a gun - get one with a safety.

[Bucky]

As stated earlier a modified Glock is no longer a Glock it is a <your name here> gun. I am specifically referring to the modification of the Glock's internal mechanisms. Changing the Glock factory "Sight Hole Protectors" with aftermarket sights does not change the internal operations of the gun. Changing or modifying the internal mechanisms of the Glock invalidate the design parameters of the pistol and make it into a <your name here> gun.


So where is the line where the gun is no longer a Glock? What about guide rod? That’s internal. Or is it only the firing mechanism? My 43 has a stock firing mechanism, but an Apex physical trigger? That’s no longer a Glock?

[JCS]

So where is the line where the gun is no longer a Glock? What about guide rod? That’s internal. Or is it only the firing mechanism? My 43 has a stock firing mechanism, but an Apex physical trigger? That’s no longer a Glock?

Aftermarket triggers change the pretravel of the gun, which is a designed safety feature of a Glock. If you are changing safety features of a Glock pistol it is no longer a Glock. It WAS a Glock that you changed the design of.

I say this as a reformed aftermarket parts guy that now runs stock glocks because of what I just listed.

[Die FliperMas]

Good question and thank you for bringing this up. What I am referring to is the manufacturer's perspective. I do not work for GLOCK or any other gun manufacturer. Most gun manufacturers will likely decline to provide warranty service on a modified gun. Most manufacturers will however provide warranty service on their weapons long after the warranty has expired, Glock included. So, once you have modified your weapon you are on your own for service. That is all I meant by the <your name here> gun comment. It is a bit easier for a prosecutor to label you as a "gun nut" when you use a modified gun in a justified defensive engagement though. So this is a bit of a concern as well.

I am not suggesting that no one should ever modify their gun. Just recognize that in so doing, you are on your own with regard to service and a bit more vulnerable to an aggressive prosecutor looking for their next victim.

[GJM]

I keep expecting to see a WTT post:

Looking to trade an awesome Glock 43 package — highly modified Glock 43 with competition trigger, Incog holster, only fired once, for stock Glock 43 and Perun holster.

[Nephrology]

I keep expecting to see a WTT post:

Looking to trade an awesome Glock 43 package — highly modified Glock 43 with competition trigger, Incog holster, only fired once, for stock Glock 43 and Perun holster.

Looking for SA/DA pistols and/or sessions with a licensed physical therapist

[Clusterfrack]

Seeking penis donor. Will trade once fired Glock 43, holster (with some damage), and two mags.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Looking for SA/DA pistols and/or sessions with a licensed physical therapist

Did you see the TFB video about how it is easier to disarm someone with a DA/SA pistol as compared to a SA. The latter got you shot before you could get the gun in a safe direction. With the DA trigger you could move it off you. Now this is video and I can't vouch anything except watching it.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/06/14/pistol-disarm/

[BJXDS]

The "inside" info I have is it's believed to have been a draw cord that got into the holster. I also believe the holster might have been a factor as well.


I started looking at some of the comments posted under the video on the Truth About Guns website and ran across this. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/06/glock-triggered-holstered/.


https://www.facebook.com/truexodus/videos/1510683608967544/

Have there been any updates I missed?

The most logical explanations in mind mind are the two referenced above or it was staged.

I would hope if the victim took the time to post the incident, they would provide follow up info as to what caused this, in order to try to have it never happen again to anyone.

Its beginning to look like, The world will NEVER know.