Current 9MM 1911 Questions

[Tango]

Currently, I am looking for a new 9MM 1911 with a rail. I carry a G17 for work and shoot a Kimber 1911 (45ACP) in my free time. I'm looking to make a move that allows a new 1911 to eat the free 9MM. I'm considering a DW Specialist or Colt CCU.

How do these guns fair in:

Reliability
Accuracy
Durability/Quality

In addition, am I overlooking another good option that is in the sub $2000+ price club?

[NPV]

The Dan Wesson will fit all of your desires, they are accurate, mine as well as most others I have seen are reliable, and they exude high-quality. DW uses all bar stock small parts with no cast or MIM and lot of precision machining that yields a smooth and well fit 1911. Durability wise 1911s in my experience (in .45 for me) have been as durable as anything else. Under 2K you will be hard pressed to beat a Dan Wesson.

I know a lot of people will say 1911s require more cleaning to maintain reliability but that hasn't been my experience. My 1911s often go 1k plus rounds before cleaning and have never given me fits. Granted this is a sample of one person's experience so take it with a grain of salt.

[Jay Cunningham]

The CCU is neat and has nice features at a reasonable price, but Colt QC is a little dodgy.

[Default.mp3]

Note that Dan Wesson is on CZ's pro deal list, should you qualify.

[HCM]

The CCU is neat and has nice features at a reasonable price, but Colt QC is a little dodgy.

Did you ever get yours running satisfactorily?

Colt is hit or miss lately and the dual recoil spring is a bit much for a 9mm.

DW is the way to go, especially at pro deal pricing.

[TC215]

I primarily shot/carried 9mm 1911’s for several years, and may make the switch back soon. I probably have more 9mm rounds through 1911’s than I do .45 at this point.

Dan Wesson and Wilson Combat are the only two manufacturers I would look at for 9mm 1911’s. In my opinion, no one does them better. For less than $2000, DW is definitely the way to go.

There are guys here that like Colt, but I am not a fan. YMMV.

[TOTS]

Colt definitely has cache. I have a Wiley Clapp model and love it. When I was shopping for a Valor from Dan Wesson in 9mm everyone said I would be amazed at the quality difference. I was. Dan Wesson makes an amazing 9mm 1911.

[Totem Polar]

I’m not going to turn anyone away from DW, for sure. That said, I was intrigued by the Springfield Range Officer Elite series in 9mm, FWIW.

[Sensei]

Currently, I am looking for a new 9MM 1911 with a rail. I carry a G17 for work and shoot a Kimber 1911 (45ACP) in my free time. I'm looking to make a move that allows a new 1911 to eat the free 9MM. I'm considering a DW Specialist or Colt CCU.

How do these guns fair in:

Reliability
Accuracy
Durability/Quality

In addition, am I overlooking another good option that is in the sub $2000+ price club?

Here is my review of a Colt Combat Unit 9mm.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26573-Colt-Combat-Unit-9mm-Review-and-Initial-Impression

The gun is currently at Wilson getting refitted and tuned.

After much consideration, I believe that the DW Specialist is a significant improvement in value over the CCU despite being about $250 more expensive. Both guns are roughly equivalent in terms of accuracy. However, the DW is a noticeable step up in fitting of parts which essentially makes up the cost difference. Moreover, the DW is probably out of the box more reliable in terms of thing like extractor tuning. That is to say, a DW is more likely to pass the extractor test than the Colt out of the box. Finally, you are far more likely to get your gun back from DW within a reasonable timeframe (6 weeks or less vs. 6 months) in the unlikely event that either gun has a catestrophic issue like mine had.

In the world of duty quality 9mm 1911s you have 3 choices:
1) Get a DW
2) Get a base gun and send it to Wilson or some other established armoror who knows 9mm 1911 (few do). My personal experience is that Wilson has a slight edge over most other custom shops when it comes to 9mm packages running with Wilson magazines.
3) Get a Wilson. It will likely be built a little better than the DW and thoroughly vetted for reliability.

[Wake27]

I’m not going to turn anyone away from DW, for sure. That said, I was intrigued by the Springfield Range Officer Elite series in 9mm, FWIW.

Frank Proctor has one right now, I’m curious to see his thoughts but I do have s thread on here that the OP should look into about the Specialist vs a modded RO Elite and 9mm TRP that still doesn’t exist. Bottom line though, DW.


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[Bigghoss]

I have a very serious want for a DW Specialist 9mm. I've yet to hear anyone speak ill of them and for what they are they seem very reasobaly priced.

[Larry Sellers]

I have a very serious want for a DW Specialist 9mm. I've yet to hear anyone speak ill of them and for what they are they seem very reasobaly priced.

Do it.


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[Jay Cunningham]

Did you ever get yours running satisfactorily?

Colt is hit or miss lately and the dual recoil spring is a bit much for a 9mm.

DW is the way to go, especially at pro deal pricing.

I bought two of them, and the #1 gun I sent back to Colt after 600 rounds for a bent ejector. They returned it and it seems to be okay, although I haven't put a huge number of rounds through it. #2 gun seems to be running reliably. The main issue I see with them is a failure to lock back on an empty magazine (during live fire) or the slide not going fully into battery after an emergency reload.

I will note that the above "issues" *seem* to be smoothing out with increasing numbers of rounds through the guns. I shot #2 gun the other day (only five or six magazine through it) and it was perfectly fine in all respects.

I really like the guns, I just can't recommend them. There are a lot of things out there like that. I use a Trijicon SRS optic on my carbine... I really like it, but I can't recommend it.

[Ob1sbo]

While this is neither colt or DW, I have had pretty good luck with my RO operator in 9mm. With that being said it was stock for the time it took me to go from my ffl and back to my work bench. I am running a 14ld variable in the gun now with mixed results. I will be switching to a 12 or wilson flat 13 pretty soon.


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[Bigghoss]

While this is neither colt or DW, I have had pretty good luck with my RO operator in 9mm. With that being said it was stock for the time it took me to go from my ffl and back to my work bench. I am running a 14ld variable in the gun now with mixed results. I will be switching to a 12 or wilson flat 13 pretty soon.


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I was looking at those hard before SA threw Illinois under the bus. My MC Operator went back repeatedly for the same issue but they finally replaced it and that gun has been good. Even passed the 10-8 extractor test right out of the box. SA's quality is on par with their price and if we remove politics from the equation (and it seems like they're trying to redeem themselves) I would strongly consider buying another of their 1911s.

[Bigghoss]

Do it.


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I absolutely will. Eventually. I need to curb my collecting and get what I have squared away. The pizza guns at least. Oh, and my truck needs tires pretty desperately or whatever.

[Gun Mutt]

I'm waiting on a check to come in to turn it immediately into a DW Valkyrie Commander 9mm...I turn 50 this year and it's my present to me. I did handle the Specialist Commander and my only beef is my always beef on 1911's, the friggin ambi safety rubs my right trigger finger knuckle more than I'm willing to tolerate. It was very positive up and down, which is more than I can say for the squishy, horrible ambi safeties on the 3 Colts I handled that day.

[Ob1sbo]

I was looking at those hard before SA threw Illinois under the bus. My MC Operator went back repeatedly for the same issue but they finally replaced it and that gun has been good. Even passed the 10-8 extractor test right out of the box. SA's quality is on par with their price and if we remove politics from the equation (and it seems like they're trying to redeem themselves) I would strongly consider buying another of their 1911s.

The only reason I fucked with the spring is because it felt like it was barely 7lbs... The other thing leading me to believe its the recoil spring causing my issues is I get literally the same stoppage ever 7-800 rnds. That and it only seems to happen with weaker ammo. I wanted to try a 19ld mainspring but it would have a problem getting through a magazine with out at least 5 light strikes. I need to take the time to experiment with firing pins, fp springs, mainsprings and recoil springs.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/db3a14f7a75ebcd0615d90923eea80f2.jpg


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[Larry Sellers]

I absolutely will. Eventually. I need to curb my collecting and get what I have squared away. The pizza guns at least. Oh, and my truck needs tires pretty desperately or whatever.

I’m with you there. I’m in a ban state and it’s hard not to just buy a valor in 9mm and a eco as well and call that a training /carry combo.


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[Robinson]

I've had better luck with my Colt 9mm guns than some others here, but it's hard not to recommend the Dan Wesson out of your two listed choices. Colt makes good guns but they really need more consistent quality. If you buy a stainless Dan Wesson pistol make sure you follow the break-in period instructions in the owner's manual.

There are some changes coming to the Combat Unit pistol that Colt recently announced, not sure when the updated version will be available though.

Related to recoil springs -- from the factory, Colt 9mm pistols are over-sprung and Springfield Armory guns are under-sprung. I just ordered a bunch of Wilson Combat 11# recoil springs for all of my pistols.

[P.E. Kelley]

I would suggest the Sig in this video.

https://youtu.be/FPqDscdTG4g

[Jay Cunningham]

I've had better luck with my Colt 9mm guns than some others here, but it's hard not to recommend the Dan Wesson out of your two listed choices. Colt makes good guns but they really need more consistent quality. If you buy a stainless Dan Wesson pistol make sure you follow the break-in period instructions in the owner's manual.

There are some changes coming to the Combat Unit pistol that Colt recently announced, not sure when the updated version will be available though.

Related to recoil springs -- from the factory, Colt 9mm pistols are over-sprung and Springfield Armory guns are under-sprung. I just ordered a bunch of Wilson Combat 11# recoil springs for all of my pistols.

What changes?

[Robinson]

What changes?

Nothing real exciting, though some folks might like the new features. Integrated mag well and updated ambi safety, plus a non-railed model.

[Ob1sbo]

Nothing real exciting, though some folks might like the new features. Integrated mag well and updated ambi safety, plus a non-railed model.

Integrated like the chen suit weld on or caspian style? They should just go back to the sti safeties imo


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[Bigghoss]

I’m with you there. I’m in a ban state and it’s hard not to just buy a valor in 9mm and a eco as well and call that a training /carry combo.


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In a 10-round state a 9mm 1911 makes a lot of sense. Especially now that WC 10-round mags are a thing. I'm in Colorado and although I am exempt from the mag limit, getting mags that hold more that 15 rounds is still so much of a pain that anything that I can get good 15 round mags for has a lot of appeal. So if for whatever reason I were ever limited to 10 rounds, a DW Specialist and maybe a Ruger 9mm lightweight commander would move to the top of the list. As it is, when I get around to purchasing a >$1000 gun it'll either be a PX4cc Mod 5 or a WC CenTac. Unless I end up not carrying a 92fs on duty anymore.

[Ob1sbo]

In a 10-round state a 9mm 1911 makes a lot of sense. Especially now that WC 10-round mags are a thing. I'm in Colorado and although I am exempt from the mag limit, getting mags that hold more that 15 rounds is still so much of a pain that anything that I can get good 15 round mags for has a lot of appeal. So if for whatever reason I were ever limited to 10 rounds, a DW Specialist and maybe a Ruger 9mm lightweight commander would move to the top of the list.

I know Tom J has a couple ruger light weights (with a snazzy 5 shot leather holster [emoji41]) He seems to like em


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[Bigghoss]

I know Tom J has a couple ruger light weights (with a snazzy 5 shot leather holster [emoji41]) He seems to like em


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I've heard good things and I've been pretty happy with the other Ruger products I've had so far.

[Robinson]

Integrated like the chen suit weld on or caspian style? They should just go back to the sti safeties imo


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I honestly don't know, I am just basing this on an interview conducted with a Colt exec during the NRA show. I suspect it will be the same as or similar to what they are using on the new Gold Cup Trophy guns. Here's a link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diJYgP4gEZc&t=80s

I forgot to add he mentioned a CCO version too.

[Larry Sellers]

I've been looking at their Vigil commander in 9mm. Seems like it has everything I'd want/need and nothing else. Hard to beat the price, just toss on a set of VCD's and a harrison trigger and I'd be good to go.

[DamonL]

Which would be better, the Vigil or a Colt LW Commander?

[Robinson]

Which would be better, the Vigil or a Colt LW Commander?

I owned a recent production Colt Lightweight Commander 9mm and it was a really good pistol. Never had any malfunctions, great for carry. All my current pistols are Government models, and I've been very tempted to check out the Vigil Government 9mm with its alloy frame. I think Dan Wesson gives you a lot of gun for the money. I think either option is a good choice, but for a few hundred more the DW Vigil might be a better gun overall. I haven't heard many reports on how the Vigils are performing yet though.

[awmp]

Wilson and Guncrafter are the ones I have and run well with no issues. Bought both used and saved me a ton.

[TheNewbie]

I would suggest the Sig in this video.

https://youtu.be/FPqDscdTG4g

There is something intriguing about that gun. Do Sig 1911s have an FP safety, and if so what kind?

[farscott]

If there are any ones left, a Dawson Precision CRP Trojan is hard to beat.

https://dawsonprecision.com/copy-of-sti-trojan-crp-hard-chrome/

https://dawsonprecision.com/sti-trojan-45-acp-5-crp-hard-chrome/

The issue is that STI has stopped production of most of their 1911-pattern pistols, so the supply is limited. The good news is that STI, like SA, has a lifetime warranty and the warranty follows the pistol. Dawson Precision goes through the pistol before delivery, so issues are really rare. My sample is extremely accurate and runs well on Tripp magazines.

Since STI production has ended, I hope that Dawson will start offering the same basic package on the SA Range Officer.

[Robinson]

There is something intriguing about that gun. Do Sig 1911s have an FP safety, and if so what kind?

I believe Sig uses a firing pin safety similar to the Colt Series 80 setup.

It appears the pistol in the video shot has had an arched mainspring housing installed in place of the original -- I think Mr. Kelley mentioned the lanyard ring on the supplied MSH dug into his shooting hand.

[Spectre044]

Is the current crop of DW 9mm 1911s just as reliable as it's 45 counterpart? This thread has me convinced to buy one but I can't decide if i want to plunge down the 9mm 1911 rabbit hole or just buy a 45.

[MGW]

I would suggest the Sig in this video.

https://youtu.be/FPqDscdTG4g

The one I owned was really good too. It surprised me actually.

[TC215]

Is the current crop of DW 9mm 1911s just as reliable as it's 45 counterpart? This thread has me convinced to buy one but I can't decide if i want to plunge down the 9mm 1911 rabbit hole or just buy a 45.

I bought my first DW 9mm in 2011 or so, and have had 6 or 7 more of them since then. I’ve personally never had any reliability issues with any of them.

I have another Wilson Combat 9mm being built now, but I never hesitate to buy a DW.

[357carbine]

Anyone have any experience with the DW Single Stack Classic from the CZ custom shop?

[TheNewbie]

The one I owned was really good too. It surprised me actually.

What do you think about the external extractor?

Do these for your normal 1911 holsters?

[L-2]

For Post#40, the 2nd question is unintelligible. Please edit or rephrase/re-ask the question.

Regarding the external-extractor question:
The external extractor can be great if designed and made by a manufacturer correctly.

If the manufacturer decides to stop supporting or making the parts, however, and if parts are later needed, it'll make the 1911 gun, or at least the slide assembly useless. I already have a (non-1911) SIG P225 with which has an extractor which is hard/impossible to find should I ever need one.

Alternatively, there are several makers of internal extractors which I don't see ever going away and with some fitting, and be usable in most any 1911 slide designed for internal extractors.

I've read/heard the later S&W Pro-Series and E-Series have the external extractors with the best extraction & ejection of external extractor 1911s, but not owned any of these 1911s, personally.

[TheNewbie]

What do you think about the external extractor?

Do these for your normal 1911 holsters?

fit nor for..... sorry

[45dotACP]

For Post#40, the 2nd question is unintelligible. Please edit or rephrase/re-ask the question.

Regarding the external-extractor question:
The external extractor can be great if designed and made by a manufacturer correctly.

If the manufacturer decides to stop supporting or making the parts, however, and if parts are later needed, it'll make the 1911 gun, or at least the slide assembly useless. I already have a (non-1911) SIG P225 with which has an extractor which is hard/impossible to find should I ever need one.

Alternatively, there are several makers of internal extractors which I don't see ever going away and with some fitting, and be usable in most any 1911 slide designed for internal extractors.

I've read/heard the later S&W Pro-Series and E-Series have the external extractors with the best extraction & ejection of external extractor 1911s, but not owned any of these 1911s, personally.Egw makes a version of the SIG 1911 external extractor. Not sure if they also do the 9mm version, but if it's anything like their HD extractors it's probably better than the OEM part.

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[Tango]

Thanks for all of the information. I'll be purchasing a DW Specialist in 9MM in the not too distant future.

[Toonces]

The external extractor can be great if designed and made by a manufacturer correctly.

If the manufacturer decides to stop supporting or making the parts, however, and if parts are later needed, it'll make the 1911 gun, or at least the slide assembly useless. I already have a (non-1911) SIG P225 with which has an extractor which is hard/impossible to find should I ever need one.


Given that S&W stopped making many revolver parts when the bean counters decided it wasn't profitable, and that S&W made a lot more of said revolvers than any 9mm 1911 could ever dream of selling, I would say it's a when not if on the manufacturer will stop making those parts.

However, from what I've seen of the design of most external extractors, any kinda mechanically inclined individual motivated to keep an older pistol running could make one from a piece of pre-hardened 4140 or 1144 Stressproof flat stock with some files and a drill press. While it would be much easier with a better equipped shop, I'm talking about the owner saving $$$ by making the part on their own. I'm sure I, and lots of other people, could make it run. The question of how long it would run would stop me from employing it as a serious use pistol. Of course, any gunsmith worth their salt could easily make a part like that, but gunsmiths worth their salt are so damn busy they would charge $200 for that part.

[Robinson]

What do you think about the external extractor?

Do these for your normal 1911 holsters?

Sig makes 1911s with two different slide profiles. The gun in the posted video is one of their models with a traditional slide profile, so it should fit any typical 1911 holster.

[Bart Carter]

[I]...I've read/heard the later S&W Pro-Series and E-Series have the external extractors with the best extraction & ejection of external extractor 1911s, but not owned any of these 1911s, personally.

S&W 1911 external-extractor pistols have been made for quite a number of years and are still the basic 1911 from them. After a lot of research and having owned a basic SS .45 1911 from S&W, I bought a 9mm Pro 1911. It was well worth the money. The fit was great, the slide surprising smooth and easy to rack, great accuracy. I first took it to a 4 day handgun class so I would become proficient with a 1911. It has about 2,500 rounds so far without a malfunction. It was designed around, and came with, Wilson mags. If I were to make the choice again, I would still buy the S&W Pro.

[Robinson]

It was designed around, and came with, Wilson mags.

The part in italics is the only part of your post I question. Please explain.

[Bart Carter]

Well, to clarify, I don't know about the actual design process on this gun, but it came from the factory with Wilson Elite 9mm mags. Those are what the Pro Shop uses for the Pro 9mm 1911. At the time I bought, a S&W 9mm was only available in the Pro series, not the E-Series. Maybe that is because the Pro series includes hand fitting. That may have changed. I don't know if other mags were tried or not, or what the original design may have been. I would think that these are the mags that Wilson uses in its 9mm 1911s. So, whatever they did in their design stages, these are the mags that come with the pistol.

Maybe someone with S&W design team information could comment.

[Robinson]

Well, to clarify, I don't know about the actual design process on this gun, but it came from the factory with Wilson Elite 9mm mags. Those are what the Pro Shop uses for the Pro 9mm 1911. At the time I bought, a S&W 9mm was only available in the Pro series, not the E-Series. Maybe that is because the Pro series includes hand fitting. That may have changed. I don't know if other mags were tried or not, or what the original design may have been. I would think that these are the mags that Wilson uses in its 9mm 1911s. So, whatever they did in their design stages, these are the mags that come with the pistol.

Maybe someone with S&W design team information could comment.

No worries. I really like the WC ETM magazines and use them in my guns, but I would hope S&W (or any other 1911 maker) would not alter their design based on a specific make/model of magazine. The guns should be made to a specification and the magazine makers should design their products based on that.

[JSGlock34]

No worries. I really like the WC ETM magazines and use them in my guns, but I would hope S&W (or any other 1911 maker) would not alter their design based on a specific make/model of magazine. The guns should be made to a specification and the magazine makers should design their products based on that.

This could probably be a thread of its own...

Unfortunately, I think the proliferation of 1911 manufacturers has greatly eroded the standardization of the platform. Magazines are even more diverse, with an array of dimensions, followers, tubes, and springs. This is an old article (How-I-Did-it: 1911 Magazine Analysis (http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/index.html)), but I think it illustrates well how simply changing the magazine can affect 1911 feeding and function.

While the practice seems less common today, custom 1911 makers used to 'tune' magazines for specific pistols. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to shoot a Hilton Yam custom 1911 that once graced the cover of SWAT Magazine; the pistol was accompanied by six custom numbered magazines bearing Yam's logo. This is not to say the pistol wouldn't work with another magazine, but it was completely reliable with the supplied magazines.

One of the reasons I think Wilson Combat has a well earned reputation for producing reliable 1911s is that they also control the design and manufacture of their magazines, which are highly regarded. Is a Wilson magazine always the answer? Consider this statement from Wilson Combat's Handgun FAQ (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/faqs/)...

Why doesn't my magazine always reliably lock back when empty?

Even though we use the strongest magazine springs in the industry, some pistols have such excessive tolerances in the magazine well–slidestop internal lobe area that some magazines will not reliably lock back on empty even when new. This is a known problem with some Springfield Armory pistols. You may need to have a gunsmith replace, polish or fit your slide stop for proper function. This may also be an indication that your springs need replacing.

That tells me that there can be real benefits when a manufacturer designs a 1911 to work with a specific magazine.

[TheNewbie]

What does it mean to tune magazines? What does the practice entail?

[JSGlock34]

I've seen the term encompass a range of work on magazines, from polishing the interior of the tube to filing the magazine release engagement notch to ensure it works properly with the host pistol. Ensuring the feed lips were properly sized to work with chosen ammunition is another aspect.

These days I most frequently see the term used with 2011 magazines. Dawson even makes a magazine tuning kit for 2011 mags (https://dawsonprecision.com/dawson-precision-sti-2011-hicap-magazine-tuning-kit/?revpage=2#reviews)...

https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-5t3ceeio/products/2533/images/2735/098-001__65212.1430919540.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

[45dotACP]

What does it mean to tune magazines? What does the practice entail?These. https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/magazine-tools/1911-auto-magazine-lip-forming-tools-prod911.aspx

It entails these. And it's awful and IMO a waste of time this day and age


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[Robinson]

This could probably be a thread of its own...

Unfortunately, I think the proliferation of 1911 manufacturers has greatly eroded the standardization of the platform. Magazines are even more diverse, with an array of dimensions, followers, tubes, and springs. This is an old article (How-I-Did-it: 1911 Magazine Analysis (http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/index.html)), but I think it illustrates well how simply changing the magazine can affect 1911 feeding and function.

While the practice seems less common today, custom 1911 makers used to 'tune' magazines for specific pistols. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to shoot a Hilton Yam custom 1911 that once graced the cover of SWAT Magazine; the pistol was accompanied by six custom numbered magazines bearing Yam's logo. This is not to say the pistol wouldn't work with another magazine, but it was completely reliable with the supplied magazines.

One of the reasons I think Wilson Combat has a well earned reputation for producing reliable 1911s is that they also control the design and manufacture of their magazines, which are highly regarded. Is a Wilson magazine always the answer? Consider this statement from Wilson Combat's Handgun FAQ (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/faqs/)...

Why doesn't my magazine always reliably lock back when empty?

Even though we use the strongest magazine springs in the industry, some pistols have such excessive tolerances in the magazine well–slidestop internal lobe area that some magazines will not reliably lock back on empty even when new. This is a known problem with some Springfield Armory pistols. You may need to have a gunsmith replace, polish or fit your slide stop for proper function. This may also be an indication that your springs need replacing.

That tells me that there can be real benefits when a manufacturer designs a 1911 to work with a specific magazine.

I concur with a lot of what you posted here. But going back to your one point, so many manufacturers building 1911s begs the question "what is a 1911?" along with some of the reliability issues we see. Though it may benefit a particular vendor's specific pistol to be designed around a magazine for optimum reliability, I still feel the guns should be made to a specification and the magazines designed accordingly. Ideally as long as a given magazine from XYZ supplier is made properly it should work in any 1911 with the appropriate chambering. Wilson's ETM mags tend to work well in a lot of 1911 pistols, but I'm not crazy about a pistol designed around the magazine. Not a 1911 in any event. For a proprietary design it's a different story. I fully realize that just because I view things that way doesn't mean that's the way things always are in reality.

Back to the post that brought this up, I've owned several S&W 1911 pistols. They all worked just fine but I have no reason to believe they alter the design of any of their 1911s based on Wilson's magazines. The S&W Pro model 9mm guns do seem to be really nicely made though.

[Sensei]

This could probably be a thread of its own...

Unfortunately, I think the proliferation of 1911 manufacturers has greatly eroded the standardization of the platform. Magazines are even more diverse, with an array of dimensions, followers, tubes, and springs. This is an old article (How-I-Did-it: 1911 Magazine Analysis (http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/index.html)), but I think it illustrates well how simply changing the magazine can affect 1911 feeding and function.

While the practice seems less common today, custom 1911 makers used to 'tune' magazines for specific pistols. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to shoot a Hilton Yam custom 1911 that once graced the cover of SWAT Magazine; the pistol was accompanied by six custom numbered magazines bearing Yam's logo. This is not to say the pistol wouldn't work with another magazine, but it was completely reliable with the supplied magazines.

One of the reasons I think Wilson Combat has a well earned reputation for producing reliable 1911s is that they also control the design and manufacture of their magazines, which are highly regarded. Is a Wilson magazine always the answer? Consider this statement from Wilson Combat's Handgun FAQ (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/faqs/)...

Why doesn't my magazine always reliably lock back when empty?

Even though we use the strongest magazine springs in the industry, some pistols have such excessive tolerances in the magazine well–slidestop internal lobe area that some magazines will not reliably lock back on empty even when new. This is a known problem with some Springfield Armory pistols. You may need to have a gunsmith replace, polish or fit your slide stop for proper function. This may also be an indication that your springs need replacing.

That tells me that there can be real benefits when a manufacturer designs a 1911 to work with a specific magazine.

Your last sentence goes to the heart of my point #2 way back in post 9. I think that part of Wilson’s mojo when it comes to the 9mm 1911 is their control over the part that is responsible for 50% (at least) of reliability - the magazines.

[Jay Cunningham]

This is a remarkably similar situation as to to 5.56mm Kalashnikovs.

[Bigghoss]

This is a remarkably similar situation as to to 5.56mm Kalashnikovs.

Don't remind me. I should have bought an SLR-105...

[NPV]

As an owner of an STI 2011 I can say that mag tuning for 2011s is an entirely different ballgame. 2011 mags require a lot of bending/shaping/re-forming of the actual mag tube as well as the feed lips.

[Jay Cunningham]

Don't remind me. I should have bought an SLR-105...

The more I think about it, the more I want to routinely use my 5.56mm AK and my 9mm 1911 together.

It could be a meme AND a hashtag AND a blog.

[JSGlock34]

I concur with a lot of what you posted here. But going back to your one point, so many manufacturers building 1911s begs the question "what is a 1911?" along with some of the reliability issues we see. Though it may benefit a particular vendor's specific pistol to be designed around a magazine for optimum reliability, I still feel the guns should be made to a specification and the magazines designed accordingly. Ideally as long as a given magazine from XYZ supplier is made properly it should work in any 1911 with the appropriate chambering. Wilson's ETM mags tend to work well in a lot of 1911 pistols, but I'm not crazy about a pistol designed around the magazine. Not a 1911 in any event. For a proprietary design it's a different story. I fully realize that just because I view things that way doesn't mean that's the way things always are in reality.

Perhaps "designed around" is a poor choice of words, but I certainly think the different 1911 manufacturers make small choices that will optimize one magazine over others. As another example, during Todd's test of the Springfield Armory Warren 1911 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8443), the 10 round Wilson, Tripp, and Metalform magazines were actually damaging the ejector when forcefully inserted, a problem that did not occur with the 9 round Metalform magazines supplied with the pistol. I suspect such contact would not occur when inserting a Wilson magazine into a Wilson pistol.

Lots of 1911 pistols out there were built to work with standard capacity 7 (.45) and 9 (9mm) round magazines. That's the original design. Not all manufacturer's ejectors are designed to work with the "+1" magazines. Whether or not this matters is another question...(Todd's pistol seemed to work quite well with a broken ejector...)

[EVP]

What does it mean to tune magazines? What does the practice entail?



While I am far from a 1911 guy, it probably can mean a wide variety of things depending on who you ask.


I know a few basic ones, first how does the mag interact with the gun and what clearance it has with the ejector and also how the rounds are presented to the chamber.


I had a 1911 worked on by a top smith and I told him and sent what mags I would be using. This is common and it seems like Hilton and other guys have come to the same conclusion.

[Robinson]

Perhaps "designed around" is a poor choice of words, but I certainly think the different 1911 manufacturers make small choices that will optimize one magazine over others. As another example, during Todd's test of the Springfield Armory Warren 1911 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8443), the 10 round Wilson, Tripp, and Metalform magazines were actually damaging the ejector when forcefully inserted, a problem that did not occur with the 9 round Metalform magazines supplied with the pistol. I suspect such contact would not occur when inserting a Wilson magazine into a Wilson pistol.

Lots of 1911 pistols out there were built to work with standard capacity 7 (.45) and 9 (9mm) round magazines. That's the original design. Not all manufacturer's ejectors are designed to work with the "+1" magazines. Whether or not this matters is another question...(Todd's pistol seemed to work quite well with a broken ejector...)

If you ask Wilson Combat about it they'll say guns in which the top round contacts the ejector have an improperly designed ejector. :) There are also aftermarket ejectors available to correct the problem.

I get that the manufacture of some 1911s may take into account a given magazine. I'm saying I'd prefer that not to be the case. If S&W specifically took the WC mags into account in the design of their guns then I stand corrected -- I just don't have any evidence of that from my experience with S&W 1911s. It makes more sense to me that Wilson Combat might do this.

[Sensei]

What does it mean to tune magazines? What does the practice entail?

I asked Deb at the SACS custom shop that same question back in 2004 when I got my first Pro. I mentioned it because the FBI contract specified that each gun be supplied with 6 “specially tuned” metalform mags. Paraphrasing her reply from 14 years ago:

SACA designed the Pro with a particular magazine in mind. At the time, they had little confidence that any 8-round mags on the market could pass the contract’s reliability requirements (times have changed); hence the 7-rounders that come with each gun. I seem to recall her saying that SA had specifications for spring strength to optimize reliability. Moreover, each gun was test fired with each of the supplied mags using the Remington 230 grain GS which was the issued ammo back then.

I’m curious to know which magazines come with the new 9mm Pro model that was released a couple of months ago by the SACS. At $3200 MSRP, that gun is competing against Wilson’s and NH’s base models.

[NPV]

I asked Deb at the SACS custom shop that same question back in 2004 when I got my first Pro. I mentioned it because the FBI contract specified that each gun be supplied with 6 “specially tuned” metalform mags. Paraphrasing her reply from 14 years ago:

SACA designed the Pro with a particular magazine in mind. At the time, they had little confidence that any 8-round mags on the market could pass the contract’s reliability requirements (times have changed); hence the 7-rounders that come with each gun. I seem to recall her saying that SA had specifications for spring strength to optimize reliability. Moreover, each gun was test fired with each of the supplied mags using the Remington 230 grain GS which was the issued ammo back then.

I’m curious to know which magazines come with the new 9mm Pro model that was released a couple of months ago by the SACS. At $3200 MSRP, that gun is competing against Wilson’s and NH’s base models.
I believe the 9mm "Pro" is shipping with 9 round Metalform mags.

[Doc_Glock]

I believe the 9mm "Pro" is shipping with 9 round Metalform mags.

Three of my ten or so Metalform 9 round mags occasionally fail to lock back on empty in a Range Officer. I just ordered a bunch of Mec-Gar 9 rounders and will report back.

[NPV]

Three of my ten or so Metalform 9 round mags occasionally fail to lock back on empty in a Range Officer. I just ordered a bunch of Mec-Gar 9 rounders and will report back.

If the new mags solve your problem it could mean the Metalforms just require a new spring. If you continue having issues or if they get worse I would focus my attention on the slide stop and verify that it is interfacing correctly with the follower.

[Robinson]

Three of my ten or so Metalform 9 round mags occasionally fail to lock back on empty in a Range Officer. I just ordered a bunch of Mec-Gar 9 rounders and will report back.

I had the same issue with Metalform mags a few years ago shortly after I did the 2K challenge with a 9mm Loaded Target. What recoil spring are you running (just curious)?

[Doc_Glock]

I had the same issue with Metalform mags a few years ago shortly after I did the 2K challenge with a 9mm Loaded Target. What recoil spring are you running (just curious)?

I don't know. Whatever comes stock with it. Is there a preferred weight for this pistol? It seems kind of slow to get back into battery to me, but that may be a characteristic of the gun. I am completely unfamiliar with 1911s

[Robinson]

I don't know. Whatever comes stock with it. Is there a preferred weight for this pistol? It seems kind of slow to get back into battery to me, but that may be a characteristic of the gun. I am completely unfamiliar with 1911s

Hmm... well if you are running the supplied recoil spring then that is probably not contributing to the "not locking back on empty" problem. Sometimes running too high a spring rate will contribute to that problem.

Springfield Armory typically ships their 9mm guns with a 9# recoil spring I think. I've replaced mine with 11# springs after experimenting with 13# flat wire springs. The guns seem to function better -- I think the guns are under-sprung from the factory.

[JSGlock34]

Three of my ten or so Metalform 9 round mags occasionally fail to lock back on empty in a Range Officer. I just ordered a bunch of Mec-Gar 9 rounders and will report back.

Though I believe Todd used the 10 round Metalform magazines, he reported numerous failures to lock back in his Springfield-Warren 1911 with this brand (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7310).

In an attempt to get the Metalform magazines working properly, I took the advice of Brownells tech support and bought some 8# magazine springs. Unfortunately, these appear to be the exact same springs (number of coils and gauge of wire) as came in the mags originally. Furthermore, a new spring did not alleviate the problems that some of the Metalform magazines were having — failing to lock back on an empty magazine and occasionally sticking in the gun — which leads me to believe that it is a problem with the follower rather than spring tension that is causing the issues. I deadlined another magazine because of it. It probably doesn’t even make sense to track the number any more since essentially they’re all questionable.


If you ask Wilson Combat about it they'll say guns in which the top round contacts the ejector have an improperly designed ejector. :) There are also aftermarket ejectors available to correct the problem.

I get that the manufacture of some 1911s may take into account a given magazine. I'm saying I'd prefer that not to be the case. If S&W specifically took the WC mags into account in the design of their guns then I stand corrected -- I just don't have any evidence of that from my experience with S&W 1911s. It makes more sense to me that Wilson Combat might do this.

Well, I guess you could check to see if the top round in a Wilson magazine contacts the ejector in your S&W 1911? :D

[flyrodr]

I've had really good luck (re: feeding and locking back when empty) with the Tripp 10-round magazines. The Wilson 10-round mags have functioned well too, only I can only get nine rounds in them. Side-by-side, the Tripp tube is slightly longer.

[farscott]

If you ask Wilson Combat about it they'll say guns in which the top round contacts the ejector have an improperly designed ejector. :) There are also aftermarket ejectors available to correct the problem.

I get that the manufacture of some 1911s may take into account a given magazine. I'm saying I'd prefer that not to be the case. If S&W specifically took the WC mags into account in the design of their guns then I stand corrected -- I just don't have any evidence of that from my experience with S&W 1911s. It makes more sense to me that Wilson Combat might do this.

Dawson Precision offers three different magazine catches, one that holds magazines at the nominal height in the magazine well, one that holds a magazine 0.010" higher, and one that holds a magazine 0.010" lower. This comes in handy with some guns that hold the magazine too high (in my experience, Colt has magazines hitting the ejector) or too low (I had one SA gun that benefited from a decreased feed angle).

https://dawsonprecision.com/mag-releases-1911-by-dawson-precision/

[Robinson]

Well, I guess you could check to see if the top round in a Wilson magazine contacts the ejector in your S&W 1911? :D

Sorry for the misunderstanding -- I don't currently own a S&W 1911. This whole part of the discussion came from my response to Bart Carter's post #47.

It's certain that some 9mm 1911s will have issues with the top round in a 10-rd magazine contacting the ejector. This can happen with Colts, Springfield Armory guns, maybe some others. Brazos makes an ejector that has a relief cut to eliminate that contact in case anyone is interested.

I typically use the Wilson ETM magazines in my guns as they give excellent performance. I ordered one of the Brownells mags to try, just to see if it might be another good option.

[mmc45414]

I ordered one of the Brownells mags to try, just to see if it might be another good option.I have several (I think 10) of them, and they have always functioned great but most of them do not drop free reliably from my Rugers. The front of the mag where they bend the little lip seems to drag after it gets past the trigger bow. I thought I had them figured out and polished and tweaked them there, but the on didn't so I just decided to use the 6 ETMs I have for now.

[Bart Carter]

...Well, I guess you could check to see if the top round in a Wilson magazine contacts the ejector in your S&W 1911? :D

The S&Ws have external ejectors. Wound the top round affect external ejectors too?

[TC215]

The S&Ws have external ejectors. Wound the top round affect external ejectors too?

While an external ejector would be an interesting design, i believe you mean extractor.

[Robinson]

I have several (I think 10) of them, and they have always functioned great but most of them do not drop free reliably from my Rugers. The front of the mag where they bend the little lip seems to drag after it gets past the trigger bow. I thought I had them figured out and polished and tweaked them there, but the on didn't so I just decided to use the 6 ETMs I have for now.

At the range today the Brownells magazine worked just fine. No malfunctions and it drops free from my Sprinfield and Colt guns, though not with as much velocity as the ETM mags.

[Robinson]

The S&Ws have external ejectors. Wound the top round affect external ejectors too?

As TC215 mentioned, the part that we are discussing that may be contacted by the top round in the magazine is the ejector. So no, the external extractor on a S&W pistol would not be affected.

[tgoldie00]

The Specialist is a great pistol from DW. I have had 3 total DWs, 2 Valkyries (.45 and 9mm) and now a Guardian 9mm. The have all been as well, if not better, than I anticipated. I only sold the twins to get into a Wilson Combat EDC X9, and missed the 9mm Valkyrie so much I ended up buying a Guardian (I like the cleaner look a bit more). Dan Wesson really has its game down, but to me their 9mm models stand apart from the crowd in all but the tippity-toppiest tier of 9mm 1911s. They are simple so silky smooth...and the recoiul impulse, even on the 4.25in models, is just about as light and horizontal as one could really ask for.

As for mags, I run the flush OEM 9-round in the pistol when I carry, a 10 round ETM on my hip as a spare.

Enjoy your DW and share some pics when it comes in!

[Bart Carter]

As TC215 mentioned, the part that we are discussing that may be contacted by the top round in the magazine is the ejector. So no, the external extractor on a S&W pistol would not be affected.

Whoops! Was reading ejector and thinking extractor. :p

[tcba_joe]

The Specialist is a great pistol from DW. I have had 3 total DWs, 2 Valkyries (.45 and 9mm) and now a Guardian 9mm. The have all been as well, if not better, than I anticipated. I only sold the twins to get into a Wilson Combat EDC X9, and missed the 9mm Valkyrie so much I ended up buying a Guardian (I like the cleaner look a bit more). Dan Wesson really has its game down, but to me their 9mm models stand apart from the crowd in all but the tippity-toppiest tier of 9mm 1911s. They are simple so silky smooth...and the recoiul impulse, even on the 4.25in models, is just about as light and horizontal as one could really ask for.

As for mags, I run the flush OEM 9-round in the pistol when I carry, a 10 round ETM on my hip as a spare.

Enjoy your DW and share some pics when it comes in!
I've been lusting after 9mm 1911s lately. (Not buying in the immediate future). I hadn't seen the specialist and was looking at Colts and SA guns. It looks exactly like what I would built and with the CZ/DW pro pricing mentioned earlier makes it a no-brainer. My only issue dislike is the shape of the dustcover, from an aesthetic standpoint I like the Springfield RO Elite railed dustcover better, but it's so minor as to be a non-issue.

[Up1911Fan]

I thought I remembered rumors of a 9mm TRP Operator along with the 10mm for this year. Maybe I was wrong though.

[NPV]

The 10mm TRP has been released and can be found in the wild. The 9mm TRP has not been announced to my knowledge.

Regardless I think you still get more for your dollars with a Dan Wesson, and I have owned both and still own the Dan Wesson.

[Wake27]

I thought I remembered rumors of a 9mm TRP Operator along with the 10mm for this year. Maybe I was wrong though.

I was probably part of that rumor. It had been confirmed by someone in the industry when the 10mm was announced so I mentioned it in a thread on here. Turns out he misread the post.