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View Full Version : AAR Kyle Defoor 2-Day Advanced Handgun - Feb 11-12, 2012 - PARK CITY, KY



aboveandbeyond
02-14-2012, 01:36 AM
The day before:

I met up with two fellow M4C members (GD4 and Hank) when I got to the Rock Castle Shooting Center resort. We sat down for dinner and long behold Kyle walks in. So we invited him to join us.

For me, that’s where the learning began.

We started eating our meals and just chatted with one another. There I learned many things. Between bites of a plain hamburger, Kyle was answering our questions regarding anything. What type of carry rounds to use, cold weather gear, weapon manipulations, etc.
It was readily apparent to see what kind of instructor Kyle was and techniques was going to be. Like his meal, his style of teaching and techniques are simple and to the point; no superfluous bulls**t like I’ve found other training schools to be. Throughout the two days of training, everything Kyle taught was simple, effective, and very logical.

The class was about 75% LE/MIL, the rest civilians. My buddy ran a 1911 that had one mag problem, a 2011 (supped up 1911) that had one minor hiccup (stove pipe or FTF I think), I ran a M&P with no hiccups, most of the students ran glocks. Gen 4 glocks didn’t fare so well in the class, most if not all gen 4 glocks were experiencing all sorts of problems. I saw multiple FTF, FTE, stove pipes from gen 4s. Kyle noted this was his experience with Gen 4s. 1 Gen 3 glock had to have a trigger spring return replaced, but it had seen upwards of 5,000 rounds already. It was due for a replacement anyways.

I was running a TAD gear Hoodie which proved a little less then adequate for the temperatures we where training in. Nonetheless, it held up just fine. I ran a Ares belt, stippled M&P 9 with Apex sear and Ram with TLR-1, Secret City Weaponeers Y-12, and Atomic Dog mag pouches. All which proved to be reliable, I had no problems of any sorts with the mentioned gear. For the class, I got a pair of new SKD PIG gloves. Me and two others ran these gloves. Each of us noted the amount dexterity the glove offered, it was simply awesome. However, the three of us running these gloves felt the SKD PIG glove quality was less then expected. We all found the stitchings were becoming undone near the beginning of the class. Are you kidding me??? I cannot recommend the SKD PIG gloves to take into combat, I have little faith in them. It's simply not durable enough. One of the students switched back to Mechanix gloves after a few hours.

I’ve been to Rock Castle Shooting Center many times for shooting events prior to this class so I knew what to expect. Hotel had this old nostalgic feeling that honestly needed a major renovation. Décor was, to be quite frank, outdated. Food was okay, the menu had definitely shrunk since the last time I was there. The actual shooting range where we shot was more or less a manicured pasture. Ah well, at no fault of Grey Group and Kyle, we worked with what was available.

TD 1

Once we got the range around 0830, everyone immediately geared up. It took me by surprise as every class I’ve been to, there were always a few shooters lolly-gagging around, holding up the class. Not in this one, everyone was here to train and learn. The students were all top-notch veterans of valuable training.

Due to the weather, I changed up my kit last minute from the original planned IWB to OWB holster. I took Kyle’s advice the night before to run OWB for safety purposes (Layered garments with IWB is not only challenging, but potentially dangerous). Weather was simply put…FREEZING! Morning was roughly 20 or below degrees, with the afternoon at 32 degrees freezing temperature. FML. We never stopped shaking!

Once we got the firing line, Kyle briefed us on safety and made it known that this was an advanced class. He started off not with the standard warm up drills found in many schools, but initiated the class with the Defoor test #1. Reduced A-zone hits proved to be a challenge to many with a 4-second par time. Credit card shots proved even tougher with gloves and 20 degree weather. I don’t think anyone passed. Can you blame us? Our hands were constantly shaking, even when shooting! Regardless, Kyle told us how impressed he was with the shooting and safety displayed by the class. Kyle maintained a positive and optimistic attitude despite the weather.

Note, the Defoor tests are incredibly tough to pass. Even Kyle fails the tests at times. However, the tests are a great benchmark to aim for. Kyle noted that if you can pass these tests consistently, you are damn good with a pistol.

After the test, we went into fundamentals. What he did that I found unique was how he broke down the fundamentals. Kyle did NOT present all the fundamentals all at once, but instead broke it down into more manageable sections. This is where he differs from most instructors I've learned from. Between learning Kyle’s thoughts on grip, sight picture, stance, and trigger control, we shot multiple slow fire ten round groups into a B-8 repair centers. Between each string of 10 rounds, we would focus on the fundamentals that Kyle taught us. I loved this style of teaching, step by step. Too much info at once causes confusion.

Next, the class worked on one-handed manipulations and one-handed shooting. When drawing with OSOH, Kyle noted that putting the gun between your knees makes you immobile. I won’t be doing that technique anymore.
What I took from this portion that really resonated with me was keeping elbows down to maintain recoil. Kyle demonstrated to us the reason, rather than recoiling to the 10 or 11 o’clock, it was possible to let the gun recoil to nearly 12 o’clock. That opened my eyes big time. As well, Kyle explained as to why he doesn’t cant the gun 45 degrees like what a lot of schools do. You’re used to seeing the sights vertical, not 45 degrees. Makes plenty of logical sense. Stance doesn’t matter as much when shooting one handed for combative reasons. Kyle had us alternate feet positions when shooting one handed at 10 yards.

After the very informative basics, we broke for lunch. After eating a light lunch consisting of a sandwich and spring rolls, we went back to the range.

While most schools teach their students how to shoot blazingly fast, instead Kyle taught us a drill to track our sights. Anyone can shoot fast, but it’s the ability to track sights that separates the talented from the amateurs. This was a definite “light bulb” moment for me. Even though the drill was a real ammo burner, I was glad to do it. For me, being able to track the sights was worth the price of admission.

We ended the day with what I like to call “changing gears”. Knowing when to slow down to make low probability hits and when to speed up to make high probability shots. The following drills had us alternating between making A-zone hits and credit card shots. After those drills, Kyle made it a bit more challenging by throwing in multiple targets. So now we’re transitioning from target to targets, but also slowing down for those headshots.

By the time we finished those drills; it was getting dark. We all prepped for the low-light portion.

Before we started shooting, a surefire rep spoke to the class about lights. After the informative talk and demonstrations on lights, Kyle picked up after by teaching his techniques with low light. Eye opener for me was the discussion regarding Harris technique and modified FBI. The cons with both those techniques were apparent. The flashlight grip he taught us was very simple and effective. With the grip, the shooter can still reload and activate the light. Wicked awesome. Kyle discussed where to hold the torch so that the sights don’t splash the light back in our face. Again, most schools like to back light the sights, but the ambient light from the torch proved more then enough to see the sights. We shot one after another on the firing line. Kyle explained that if everyone on the line lit their targets all at once, it isn’t really low-light shooting.

After the low-light shoot, we went back to the resort for chow. At the bar we ate at, Kyle gave one of the best speeches on mindset drawing from his own experiences and real world examples. He warned everyone that the speech may offend some. I couldn’t help but notice some people walking into the bar and hearing what Kyle had to say. They were not expecting to hear the things Kyle was talking about.

Day 1 overall fine-tuned my shooting; there were many eye openers from the lessons. When Kyle taught something, I could tell everyone was learning something new.

TD 2

Day 2 was quite a bit warmer, meaning mid 30s warm. To many, this would be ridiculous. HAH! Not us. Few of the students were shedding layers! With the weather the day before, this was a figurative warm welcome. As well, this when the training got real fun and interesting.

We started the day with running with a drawn pistol. Kyle advocates moving with a pistol in the high ready position, muzzle up pointed up in the air. He discussed the cons with the low ready. From a combative viewpoint, Kyle demonstrated how easy it was for someone to grab the gun in the low ready! Running in the low ready often leads muzzling your leg. From here on out, muzzles up. When done correctly, you can move in a stack with various height differences without muzzling anyone.

Kyle then discussed shooting from prone. His golf grip proved incredibly useful. It raised the gun and sights to manageable position when engaging a IPSC target.

Shooting from barricades was again, very informative. Foot placement was key when shooting from a barricade. Reloading from a barricade was another subject he discussed. A student asked if a shooter should always go back into cover when reloading. Drawing from personal experience, reloading while your head and hands in cover was situational dependent. Example: You put a bad guy down from a position of cover, go back in to reload, pop back out to assess the situation and the bad guy is gone…where the hell did he go? In that situation, better to keep your eyes on target. From the makeshift barricades we had, we punished some plates. Real ammo burner, but lots of lessons learned. Don't be afraid to the trigger guard to stabilize your position from a barricade.

We shot up close and personal with IPSC targets. Mentioning gun position, you don’t want the gun far out or too high up. Right at the hip is where Kyle suggested to me. As with before, having a aggressive stance up close does wonders. It keeps you from falling onto the ground and you can expose more of the target with the proper stance.

After learning shooting on the move, Kyle discussed blade work. He demonstrated just how fast the blade was compared to drawing and shooting from arms length. Blades smoked drawing and shooting. Kyle was able to the get the blade out to target in .4 to .5 seconds as opposed to a gun that averaged .7 to .8 seconds. Case in point, the knife is faster then a gun when within arms reach. This was when I realized change in my EDC was to be had. I need blade training from Sayoc.

To encapsulate everything I’ve learned,
The four hardest things for shooters to master is 1) Accuracy at a distance 2) Tracking the sights 3) Target Transitions 4) switching from low probability hits to high probability hits.
The trigger guard of pistols can be used as a weapon. It’s damn hard if not impossible to break a trigger guard!
The sun can seriously mess with your sight picture inevitably leading to missed shots.
Not only did I learn the skills to be a better shooter, but the mindset portion Kyle mentions between lessons was a change in paradigm for me. This isn’t just a shooting course, it’s also a mindset course.
It's to time incorporate combatives with shooting. Sooner or later, classes like these will start to proliferate.
The Defoor glock sights are bomb! There's a purpose behind the simplicity of the sights. For one, the sights are not ramped unlike many sights on the market. Why? With a 90 degree angle rear sight, the shooter has the ability to rack the slide on just about anything.

I cannot recommend this class and Kyle enough to anybody seeking out solid training. Kyle was not only very informative, but humorous, laid back, well spoken and just flat out cool to learn from. His teaching style was simple and to the point. Just how I like it, the meat and potatoes. The amount of knowledge and wisdom the man possesses surely catapults him to the “must train” list of instructors. On the way back, my friend told me just how eye opening this experience was. Kyle is not only a talented shooter, but he is a gifted teacher. He WILL make you a better shooter, but the real significance is the values and morals he teaches. One should not pass up the opportunity to learn from and train with Kyle, a world-class instructor who has the ability to change the way the firearms industry view training.

And to quote from Kyle’s memorable speech,

Die well!
Alvin

Pictures and Captions-

The man himself. While just about everyone was freezing on TD1. Kyle was warm, almost or if not sweating in his jacket. Again, Kyle’s wisdom proved invaluable. Wear the right gear! My TAD jacket has been great, but is definitely not good enough for temperatures below freezing.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0240-1.jpg


This picture really sums up just how cold it really was
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0298.jpg

Getting started
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0238.jpg

Kyle’s discussion on mindset at the bar. One the best speeches I have ever had the opportunity to hear. If any of my college professors taught like Kyle did, I wouldn't a miss a class. If Kyle ever does a motivational speech, do not pass the opportunity! Its that good.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0717.jpg

The man came prepared for any weather, lesson learned
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0236.jpg

Kyle demonstrating one of his tests
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0245.jpg

To quote from the big guy, I’m 4th prestige! :D (MW3 reference for those that don’t get it)
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0258.jpg

Kyle discussing grip, trigger and sight picture. Notice his OSOH pointer finger placement. The technique significantly improved recoil control.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0285.jpg

Kyle’s way of moving with the gun
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0727.jpg

aboveandbeyond
02-14-2012, 01:37 AM
Kyle Demostrating shooting from the prone with golf grip. Works like a charm
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0737.jpg

Accuracy was a paramount lesson with Kyle. As you can tell from the pic, everyone was making the head shots while moving. Hostage targets took no holes during this drill. Hard shooting group
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/Allheadshots.png

This particular set-up had us wondering what drill was next...
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0738.jpg

Some of the nitty gritty techniques Kyle showed us. Head and hips position matter a lot close in.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0744.jpg

Real world practical value. Superior training can overcome anything…and any size
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0742.jpg

Kyle assessed everyone individually to give feedback. I dig the personal attention Kyle is able to give.
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0303.jpg

Proper feet placement behind the barricade
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0740.jpg

The manicured pasture we shot in…
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0728.jpg

The firing line. Notice the shooter is wearing Mechanix gloves. He switched back to them after starting out with the SKD PIG gloves
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSCN0726.jpg


Last but not the least, the obligatory class picture. Everyone in the class were top notch. I wouldn’t hesitate to train with this crew again. Thank you SF rep for giving all out Surefire hats in the picture!
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/getoffthex/Kyle%20Defoor%20Class/DSC_0235-1.jpg

Al T.
02-14-2012, 08:55 AM
Excellent! Thanks!

Magsz
02-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Why the switch to the mechanix gloves from the PIG gloves?

Not enough insulation on the PIG option? Looked mighty cold. :)

aboveandbeyond
02-15-2012, 12:30 PM
Why the switch to the mechanix gloves from the PIG gloves?

Not enough insulation on the PIG option? Looked mighty cold. :)

I'll quote myself.



It's simply not durable enough. One of the students switched back to Mechanix gloves after a few hours.



All three SKD PIG gloves were starting to fray. The shooter did not have a confidence in the glove. I certainly can't blame him. Granted the Mechanix may provide a little more insulation, but I doubt that was case

JohnN
02-15-2012, 04:38 PM
I'll quote myself.
All three SKD PIG gloves were starting to fray. The shooter did not have a confidence in the glove. I certainly can't blame him. Granted the Mechanix may provide a little more insulation, but I doubt that was case

Thanks for the heads up you just saved me a few bucks.

aboveandbeyond
02-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Thanks for the heads up you just saved me a few bucks.

Hah no problem, I wish someone else woulda done the same thing ;)

jmcrawf1
02-17-2012, 02:59 PM
I may be having a duh moment, but what's OSOH pointer finger position?

aboveandbeyond
02-17-2012, 04:42 PM
I may be having a duh moment, but what's OSOH pointer finger position?

Yeah, it was a typo on my part. I meant OSH (other strong hand, aka my left hand).

jmcrawf1
02-17-2012, 09:50 PM
Yeah, it was a typo on my part. I meant OSH (other strong hand, aka my left hand).

Is he contacting the frame with his support hand index finger?

aboveandbeyond
02-17-2012, 10:20 PM
Is he contacting the frame with his support hand index finger?

It really depends on your hand size. For kyle, his hands were a bit smaller than mine, so his OSH pointer finger is touching the trigger guard. For me, the OSH pointer finger is touching the frame/grip.

It's a pretty unique technique I've never seen or heard of. I used to hold my OSH grip like most shooters do, all four of the fingers (OSH) under the trigger guard. Since learning it at the course, I've found the "defoor grip", as I will call it, to work very well.For me, what the Defoor technique exceled at was not only recoil control, but prevents "grip slip". Sometimes on really hot days, I find my OSH grip to slip on my sweaty hands. The Defoor grip minimizes that, again, for me. The other day I got a really work out before I went shooting and my hands were, well, very sweaty. I did the fast drill cold and realized my OSH wasn't slipping. When my hands aren't wet, I have no troubles with my OSH grip slipping.

Yeah, some noted they were getting better recoil control. I know I do, for some reason, I was able to track my sights a bit faster than I normally do. Either my eyes are getting better at tracking or the grip truly controls a bit more then the standard OSH fingers under the trigger guard.

Again, that is my take. Could be different with you!

fuse
02-17-2012, 10:26 PM
Don't be afraid to use the trigger guard to stabilize your position from a barricade.


Seems like this isn't using cover correctly.

aboveandbeyond
02-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Seems like this isn't using cover correctly.

That's the equivalent of not using the barricade to stabilize a shot from a carbine. ala Kyle Lamb style ;)

fuse
02-18-2012, 01:41 AM
Did not think of it like that.

lcarr
02-18-2012, 01:03 PM
It's a pretty unique technique I've never seen or heard of. I used to hold my OSH grip like most shooters do, all four of the fingers (OSH) under the trigger guard.

Wasn't Massad Ayoob teaching this grip 20+ years ago? I'm positive it's in one of his books, though I don't have it in front of me to give you a reference. This is not to say that it's not a good technique or that it doesn't work well, only that there are very few new ideas, especially in shooting.

It's also not to say that a technique that is different from the current state of the art is bad. Eric Grauffel and Jerry Barnhart each hooks his left index finger around the front of his trigger guard. While very unusual, it seems to work well for them.

Lincoln

aboveandbeyond
02-18-2012, 01:03 PM
Did not think of it like that.

Yeah, me neither. Kyle told me to try that when we were punishing some steel. Awesome tip