300 Blackout Subsonic Load Recommendation for suppresed - home defense

[underhook]

I'm looking for recommendations on 300blk subsonic loads for home defense. I have a SIG Rattler and a BCM 9".

My understanding of 300 BLK Subs are on par with pistol rounds but can penetrate armor. Is that correct?

I'm seeing a small number of loads advertised including Hornady's new Subsonic. Sig has a number of sub loads but with different projectiles.

[DocGKR]

Subsonic is for very specific niche uses--home defense does not come to mind.

.300 BLK subsonic is not necessarily going to penetrate armor--depends on the load and armor; it definitely will NOT penetrate LIII and above.

[underhook]

Interesting. I was naively thinking of the advantage in two dimensions

- Quieter than suppressed supersonic 300blk so better preserving ones hearing in a home defense scenario
- Improved terminal effect on a target than suppressed 9mm especially if armor is involved.

[Robinson]

Interesting. I was naively thinking of the advantage in two dimensions

- Quieter than suppressed supersonic 300blk so better preserving ones hearing in a home defense scenario
- Improved terminal effect on a target than suppressed 9mm especially if armor is involved.

Both of those are probably true. I went down this same road a while back and have yet to commit to the use of subsonic 300 BLK. It would probably be more effective than subsonic 9mm, but I'm not sure how much more effective. So far I only shoot supersonic ammo in my 300 BLK rifle and it's not my home defense weapon at this time.

The 300 BLK has an advantage in that it is probably the quietest common center fire rifle round and suppresses nicely. But for supersonic use the 5.56 has the advantage in that it will likely penetrate less layers of common building materials and be somewhat safer to use in a home situation than 300 BLK. For use with a suppressor I would probably choose the 300 BLK over subsonic 9mm in a carbine, but I'm not sure I would choose supersonic 300 BLK over 5.56 even with a suppressor. Suppressed supersonic 300 BLK is somewhat less noisy than suppressed 5.56 but is much more likely to go through all of the walls in your house and maybe the neighbor's depending on where you live. Unless you never miss.

Also, even with supersonic ammo using a suppressor will probably lessen the damage to your ears quite a bit vs. non-suppressed.

[underhook]

Robinson - thank you for you thoughtful post. The added dimension to the 300, 556, 9mm equation for me is muzzle length. You point on penetration of barriers for 300 BLK are well taken.

The July/August 2018 issue of Recoil magazine has a review of 300 BLK sub loads for home defense with a focus on expansion. There is some interesting innovation in the market.

[DocGKR]

If loved ones are being attacked by violent criminals who have broken into the home, the goal would be to incapacitate the felons as rapidly as possible, with the least amount of potential downrange hazard to innocent individuals. Neither subsonic .300 BLK nor service handgun calibers are optimal choices to induce rapid physiologic incapacitatation in a desperate defensive encounter. Supersonic rifle calibers, as well as appropriate 12 ga shotgun loads would likely be better choices; as noted above, supersonic 5.56 mm has the added potential benefit of generally offering a decreased downrange hazard after first penetrating intermediate barriers.

[underhook]

DocGKR - appreciate the post. Thank you.

[GuanoLoco]

DocGKR, etc.:

I have some questions/comments on this. There probably isn’t a ‘right’ answer as everything is a tradeoff, but it is something I have considered and experimented with a bit.

There are (expensive) Lehigh 300 Blackout “Maximum Expanion” 300AAC subsonic rounds with huge (1”) expansion, but these could be classified as novelty rounds and are still poking (big) holes vs. creating rifle velocity type incapacitation. I’ve seen some less expensive alternatives lately. Overpenetration may be a concern for some as expansion seems to require a “wet” medium.

Full-size AR’s (14.5”+ barrels + muzzle device) aren’t exactly wieldy inside a house. Shooting AR’s inside a house, especially shorties seems a surefire route to permanent hearing damage for self/family/pets. The current vogue of short barrel AR’s drives up muzzle blast and drives down velocity - the key incapacitatign component. My question: At what point is bullet velocity compromized to the point where the short (223/556) AR becomes pointless, and you mights as well switch caliber to something like 300AAC?

Suppressors mitigate hearing damage concern this to a degree, but you now have the issue of increased unwieldiness of the 223 length barrel + loss of velocity and increased gun battering for an ever-shorter barrel. For 300 AAC Blackout, supersonic seems a better choice here, as I can get 2300-2400+ FPS from an 8.5” barrel with a 110 gr quality bullet (e.g. Barnes TAC-TX Black Tip).

At the extreme other end of the spectrum are items like suppressed AR-9 pistols shooting something like Fed HST 147’s. A 5” barrel, 8” or less can, .355 vs. .223/.308 diameter, predictable expansion in a quality round, hearing safe, relatively wieldy - but still a .7x”-ish “hole poker” without the ability to induce rifle-velocity incapacitation.

For home defense purposes, not expecting to be overrun by a mass of armored drug cartel soldiers, what are some well-considered choices here?

[underhook]

GuanoLoco you articulated so well the trade-off space I'm looking at. Effect on target. Effect of missing on friendlies. Effect on good people's hearing and ability to effectively fight. Ease of weapon handling in a home.

[Rex G]

My understanding of 300 BLK Subs are on par with pistol rounds but can penetrate armor. Is that correct?.

Level IV armor is out there, plentiful, largely because it is relatively inexpensive, and issued to LEOs in massive quantities. Anything issued to LEOs gets lost, stolen, and misplaced, so it ends up in the hands of miscreants. I am never going to assume I can shoot through any armor.

A shotgun, with an 18”+ barrel, is much kinder to the ears than one might expect, as I learned when I knocked-loose my hearing protection a few times, in fast-paced enclosed-range training.

I am probably about to buy a DDM4 V7 10.5” 300BLK, with LAW folder, which is why I am reading this thread, but it would be for specific transport/storage reasons, rather than home defense. I would mostly use this weapon outdoors. My first choice for home defense, in my neighborhood of thin-skinned bungalows, remains my Benelli M2, with the full awareness that one of my former arrestees may come-a-callin’ while wearing stolen armor. It is not that I am anti-rifle, but, simply that if caught half-asleep, I would rather lay my hands upon a VERY familiar weapon system, that does not fire while its “dingus” is down. (Semi is achieved, with an AR, with the safety pointed downward, rather than when “properly” aligned with the enemy. This causes a cognitive dissonance that I find vexing, unless fully in the groove.)

If I do elect to keep an AR prepped for home defense, it will be .223/5.56, such as my BCM Lightweight Middy.

[Balisong]

This thread is throwing me for a loop. I always had the understanding the 300BLK was supposed to give the same characteristics of good 556 ammo but in a shorter, more easily suppressed platform specifically for CQB/HD. If that's not the case, what exactly is 300BLK for?

[Rex G]

This thread is throwing me for a loop. I always had the understanding the 300BLK was supposed to give the same characteristics of good 556 ammo but in a shorter, more easily suppressed platform specifically for CQB/HD. If that's not the case, what exactly is 300BLK for?

Well, HD is CQB, but CQB is not, necessarily, HD.

HD, in my urbanized area, with Fifties-era, thin-cedar-skinned bungalows, is not the same as HD “on the prairie,” where my late great-grandparents’ farm is located, and most neighboring structures are quite far away.

It appears that some, perhaps many, see 300BLK as being equivalent-ish to 7.62x39 and .30 WCF, and usable for the same purposes. I do remember that plenty of game was taken with the ballistically similar .300 Whisper, by influential gun writer J.D. Jones, and his followers.

I claim no great knowledge or expertise; this is just my $0.02, as I try to educate myself about the various cartridges for short-barreled ARs. (I am leaning toward acquiring a 10.5” DDM4 300BLK pistol with LAW folder and brace, as a niche weapon, not a home-defense weapon.)

[Sensei]

DocGKR, etc.:

I have some questions/comments on this. There probably isn’t a ‘right’ answer as everything is a tradeoff, but it is something I have considered and experimented with a bit.

There are (expensive) Lehigh 300 Blackout “Maximum Expanion” 300AAC subsonic rounds with huge (1”) expansion, but these could be classified as novelty rounds and are still poking (big) holes vs. creating rifle velocity type incapacitation. I’ve seen some less expensive alternatives lately. Overpenetration may be a concern for some as expansion seems to require a “wet” medium.

Full-size AR’s (14.5”+ barrels + muzzle device) aren’t exactly wieldy inside a house. Shooting AR’s inside a house, especially shorties seems a surefire route to permanent hearing damage for self/family/pets. The current vogue of short barrel AR’s drives up muzzle blast and drives down velocity - the key incapacitatign component. My question: At what point is bullet velocity compromized to the point where the short (223/556) AR becomes pointless, and you mights as well switch caliber to something like 300AAC?

Suppressors mitigate hearing damage concern this to a degree, but you now have the issue of increased unwieldiness of the 223 length barrel + loss of velocity and increased gun battering for an ever-shorter barrel. For 300 AAC Blackout, supersonic seems a better choice here, as I can get 2300-2400+ FPS from an 8.5” barrel with a 110 gr quality bullet (e.g. Barnes TAC-TX Black Tip).

At the extreme other end of the spectrum are items like suppressed AR-9 pistols shooting something like Fed HST 147’s. A 5” barrel, 8” or less can, .355 vs. .223/.308 diameter, predictable expansion in a quality round, hearing safe, relatively wieldy - but still a .7x”-ish “hole poker” without the ability to induce rifle-velocity incapacitation.

For home defense purposes, not expecting to be overrun by a mass of armored drug cartel soldiers, what are some well-considered choices here?

I've given this a LOT of thought (like $50K in various SBR and PCC weapon systems over the years) and I think that today's answer is a little different than what I would have told you just 5 years ago. Back then, both ammunition performance from sub-10" barrels and inherent reliability issues with such weapons made me say that anything less than 10" in 5.56 was likely to be a loud, unreliable, and poorly performing waste of time. At that time, I was running 10-11.5" 5.56 platforms with either a Surefire SOCOM Mini or comparable KAC QDC/CQB; nowhere near hearing safe, but certainly much better than feeling like a icepick in the ear when firing unsuppressed indoors.

Well, things have changed a little. We have more ammo that will do the job within 100 meters from 5.56 barrels as short as 8" such as the all-copper 50 grain TSX. Even the RA556B will perform well down to ~1600 fps which gets you out to ~75 yards with a 8" barrel. So, modern ammo has addressed some of the expansion and barrier issues that come from velocity loss at very short 5.56 barrels. When it comes to mechanical reliability of the platforms, we are seeing more ultrashort and reliable 5.56 platforms such as the SCAR CQB (10") and B&T APC (8"). Unfortunately, they are very expensive.

That leaves us with a few options. Either pay the cost of a reliable, ultra-short 5.56 platform and feed it top notch ammo. Or, get a 9" 300blk or 6.8SPC AR platform and run it suppressed with something like the Silencerco Omega 9K. I have that exact 300blk package on both MCX and standard AR-PDW platforms. Their overall length is similar to a suppressed HK MP5 - very manageable. I'll tolerate the roughly 2-3" of over penetration using Barnes TAC-TX pills since those things expand wonderfully through all common intermediate barriers.

[rob_s]

This thread is throwing me for a loop. I always had the understanding the 300BLK was supposed to give the same characteristics of good 556 ammo but in a shorter, more easily suppressed platform specifically for CQB/HD. If that's not the case, what exactly is 300BLK for?

This is what led to my calling it “300 WTF” for a long time.

[Sensei]

This thread is throwing me for a loop. I always had the understanding the 300BLK was supposed to give the same characteristics of good 556 ammo but in a shorter, more easily suppressed platform specifically for CQB/HD. If that's not the case, what exactly is 300BLK for?

With the correct supersonic ammo 300blk gives supperior performance to 556. Here are gel shots of the 110 grain Barnes VOR-TX (TAC-TX):

33793

You will struggle to find 556 loads that can expand like that through auto glass or metal from a 16” gun, much less 9”. What is giving people so much heartburn with the 300blk is 1) that extra 2-3” of over penetration, 2) only a couple of loads do that well and they are all supersonic. There is no subsonic ammo that handles intermediate barriers like the TAC-TX. Personally, I have no problem with 2-3” of over penetration in a bullet that expands like that - I see it as an answer to the fattening of America...;)

[El Cid]

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t understand why anyone would ever want to use subsonic 300BLK for home defense or anything where your life is on the line. OP, maybe you are not understanding the purpose behind the caliber? The subsonic 300BLK was created for situations where being quiet was more important than anything else. It was supposed to replace the MP-5SD and depending on who you talk to, the MP-7. It’s for situations when our military personnel have to get close to something/someone without being detected, but they can switch to a mag full of supersonic ammo for times when rifle performance is needed and everyone already knows you are there.

If you are wanting the results and benefits offered by a rifle, then you use a rifle cartridge. I don’t know anyone who NEEDS to be ninja quiet during a HD scenario. Some of us use suppressors to minimize hearing damage, be able to communicate effectively, and possibly avoid hearing/mental trauma for our kids, spouses, dogs, etc. My HD rifle (5.56) has a suppressor. But it’s loaded with supersonic duty ammo. I’m not aware of anyone using a can on a 5.56 AR trying to load subs for it. Do they even make subs for 5.56?

Handguns are different. They all suck at stopping a human threat. Most people shot with handguns do survive, so using subsonic ammo in them doesn’t sacrifice performance the way you do with 300BLK. And frankly the best duty/defensive ammo these days is typically 147gr in 9mm anyway.

Bottom line – as has been stated in this thread by Doc GKR and others, there is no good reason to use 300BLK subsonic ammo against a person unless it’s all you have, or you are in JSOC/SOCOM. The only reason I have subsonic 300BLK ammo in my home is so that I can impress my friends at the range with how quiet it is – not for defending my life or my loved ones.

And one last thing… if you are worried about hearing/communication during a shooting in your home, do what many of us do. Keep electronic ear pro beside your HD weapon. Much easier than sacrificing terminal ballistics on your rifle, and much less expensive that a suppressor/stamp combo.

[ranger]

Or, get a 9" 300blk or 6.8SPC AR platform and run it suppressed with something like the Silencerco Omega 9K.

Do you have any more specific comments on the 6.8 SPC AR short barrel option as an option to 300 and 223/5.56? Thanks

[Sensei]

Do you have any more specific comments on the 6.8 SPC AR short barrel option as an option to 300 and 223/5.56? Thanks

The 6.8 SPC offers significantly superior terminal performance to 5.56 at all barrel lengths. Most high performing 6.8 SPC bullets are marginally better than the 300blk 110 grain VOR-TX / TAC-TX (black tip) at barrel lengths between 9-14”. Much like 300blk, the 6.8 SPC takes advantage of more efficient poweder burn compared to 556 allowing for shorter barrels with less velocity loss. The 6.8 SPC also has a much wider variety of high performing projectiles compared to the 300blk. Although you will find some 6.8 SBRs in the 7-8” range, most will fall between 10-12.5”. That is because most 6.8 SPC barrels use 1:10-12 twist, and you will need 10-12” of barrel length to get a full rotation for optimal stabilization.


If terminal performance from a SBR around intermediate barriers is your only criteria, my preference order would be 6.8 > 300blk >> 556.

[Aizen]

The 6.8 SPC offers significantly superior terminal performance to 5.56 at all barrel lengths. Most high performing 6.8 SPC bullets are marginally better than the 300blk 110 grain VOR-TX / TAC-TX (black tip) at barrel lengths between 9-14”. Much like 300blk, the 6.8 SPC takes advantage of more efficient poweder burn compared to 556 allowing for shorter barrels with less velocity loss. The 6.8 SPC also has a much wider variety of high performing projectiles compared to the 300blk. Although you will find some 6.8 SBRs in the 7-8” range, most will fall between 10-12.5”. That is because most 6.8 SPC barrels use 1:10-12 twist, and you will need 10-12” of barrel length to get a full rotation for optimal stabilization.


If terminal performance from a SBR around intermediate barriers is your only criteria, my preference order would be 6.8 > 300blk >> 556.

Sensei,

Can you elaborate further on current factory loads for the 6.8 SPC and their performance for self defense? I own a 6.8 rifle and have been out of the loop on guns in general for a couple of years now. I recently thought about switching to 5.56 and the AUG, but have decided to stay with 6.8 and get a short upper to put on a pistol lower before I get it tax stamped.

Problem is, I'm seeing that many of the recommended loads that DocGKR had mentioned back when are no longer being made by companies or at least by companies I would trust. (Doubletap makes the 95gr TTSX and 100gr Accubond, but I've heard too many negatives to purchase from them.) I have about 5 boxes of older Hornady 110gr BTHP and I believe 2 or 3 boxes of old SSA 100gr Accubonds in the hotter, "Tactical" loading. I'd like to focus on one load to start purchasing, but I'm not sure where to go. I'm not super concerned about over penetration, so something like the 110gr Accubond from SSA/Nosler is ok, but I'd love to know if any testing has been done on the Hornady GMX loads or the SSA/Nosler E-Tip.

I really wish Wilson Combat had not stopped making 6.8 ammo.

[Sensei]

Sensei,

Can you elaborate further on current factory loads for the 6.8 SPC and their performance for self defense? I own a 6.8 rifle and have been out of the loop on guns in general for a couple of years now. I recently thought about switching to 5.56 and the AUG, but have decided to stay with 6.8 and get a short upper to put on a pistol lower before I get it tax stamped.

Problem is, I'm seeing that many of the recommended loads that DocGKR had mentioned back when are no longer being made by companies or at least by companies I would trust. (Doubletap makes the 95gr TTSX and 100gr Accubond, but I've heard too many negatives to purchase from them.) I have about 5 boxes of older Hornady 110gr BTHP and I believe 2 or 3 boxes of old SSA 100gr Accubonds in the hotter, "Tactical" loading. I'd like to focus on one load to start purchasing, but I'm not sure where to go. I'm not super concerned about over penetration, so something like the 110gr Accubond from SSA/Nosler is ok, but I'd love to know if any testing has been done on the Hornady GMX loads or the SSA/Nosler E-Tip.

I really wish Wilson Combat had not stopped making 6.8 ammo.

Dr. Roberts published updated data on the 6.8 SPC on Light Fighter forums. The bottom line is that 90 grain Federal JSP (Gold Dot) is outstanding. The 110 SSA/Nosler Accubond is also good but deeper penetrating than the discontinued 100 grain offering. Keep in mind the Hornsby 110 grain VMAX is still available and excellent for home defense.

[Aizen]

Thanks for the info Sensei.

[underhook]

OP, maybe you are not understanding the purpose behind the caliber? The subsonic 300BLK was created for situations where being quiet was more important than anything else. It was supposed to replace the MP-5SD and depending on who you talk to, the MP-7. It’s for situations when our military personnel have to get close to something/someone without being detected, but they can switch to a mag full of supersonic ammo for times when rifle performance is needed and everyone already knows you are there.

I understood the purpose was for better reliability and terminal impact out of a short barrel vs 556 in supersonic and performance better than 9mm sub machine guns in subsonic. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout.

I guess the question is what the window for a pistol caliber carbine (including a 300 blk sub) in home defense? Is there ever a reason to choose it over a rifle?

Hornady is selling a 190gr subsonic marketed for home defense https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-190-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/

[GuanoLoco]

I guess the question is what the window for a pistol caliber carbine (including a 300 blk sub) in home defense? Is there ever a reason to choose it over a rifle?

Hornady is selling a 190gr subsonic marketed for home defense https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-190-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/

There are some crazy expansion all-brass subsonics from Lehigh and presumably others but $$$.

I have fooled aroung with a supressed AR-9 pistol using Fed HST 147 gr for HD. My question is really whether I am not better off with a ‘regular’ pistol that I practice with far more than the AR-9 and which is more handy vs. the AR-9 pistol. Also, I am going to go AR pistol format, why not suppressed 300 AAC supersonic with Barnes TAC-TX, 110gr @ 2300+ fps in an 8-9” barrel with good expansion.

[El Cid]

I understood the purpose was for better reliability and terminal impact out of a short barrel vs 556 in supersonic and performance better than 9mm sub machine guns in subsonic. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout.

I guess the question is what the window for a pistol caliber carbine (including a 300 blk sub) in home defense? Is there ever a reason to choose it over a rifle?

Hornady is selling a 190gr subsonic marketed for home defense https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-190-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/

A PCC is better than a handgun because it’s more stable (3 points of contact), usually has an optic, and gives higher velocity. They also usually have higher capacity. But you are using the same ammo that is in your handgun. With 300BLK you can (and should) use supersonic ammo for two legged threats because it’s significantly better regarding terminal ballistics. Choosing subs in 300BLK for personal defense is dumb. If you won’t believe Doc GKR, then I don’t know what else to say.

And as I mentioned before - Supersonic ammo with a can will be perfectly acceptable just like those of us using 5.56 with a can. You don’t need subs and a can to preserve hearing and communicate during an event.

[underhook]

El Cid I'm looking for a solid technical discussion on the pros and cons and make sure we factor in the most recent bullet designs. Doc GKR has outlined an incredibly well thought out and technically sound position which given his background and experience has enormous influence on my personal choice. I'm currently using a BCM SBR 300 BLK with a Surefire suppressor with Barnes supersonics.

You've raised a great point about the potential that the military use cases that drove the 300 sub development not intersecting with the civilian. I agree that I don't have a use case for shooting and not waking the neighbors from the sound. Your PCC comments are spot on. I’d also add weight. My Sig Rattler is much harder to carry around than my Sig MPX. The POI shift of subs vs supers also means, to me, you cannot run the same optic zero across both super and sub without the cognitive load of two sets of hold overs.

I'm keen to continue with arguments from both sides on if there is a civilian niche for 300blk subs and let the reader make the choice.

[Sensei]

I understood the purpose was for better reliability and terminal impact out of a short barrel vs 556 in supersonic and performance better than 9mm sub machine guns in subsonic. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout.

I guess the question is what the window for a pistol caliber carbine (including a 300 blk sub) in home defense? Is there ever a reason to choose it over a rifle?

Hornady is selling a 190gr subsonic marketed for home defense https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-190-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/

I noticed that the Hornady video claims the bullet expands down to 900 fps, but the website data claims 1050 fps from a 16” barrel for 12-18” of penetration. That is rather frustrating since most people are using barrel lengths between 8-11” in 300blk. I can’t imagine this fact is lost to Hornady. It makes me think that the velocity from a 9” barrel is right at 900 fps and bullets may struggle to expand beyond just a few feet from the muzzle.