What if I have a heavy .38 snubbie?

[314159]

Seems like the old .38 HBWC is, once again,the consensus load for J frames. Makes sense to me.

However, I also have a 2 inch Model 10 K frame. So, for those with a steel frame, full size, yet short barrel (2 to 2.5 inch) revolver: what ammo could we upgrade to?

The gun is heavy enough so any hypothetical .38 +P+ load would be fine. The trigger is much, much better. Even the sights are far more useable. So, with recoil and shoot-ability issues covered, is there a JHP or SWCHP load that reliably passes modern tests reliably enough to go up to?

I've still got a stock of the old Remington FBI load, lots of Gold Dot 135 short barrel, and even a single box of Jim Cirillo's "Safestop" FMJ full wadcutters. I'm ready for whatever choice I suppose...

[SAWBONES]

If your Model 10 has the "trough" rear sight rather than an adjustable one, then I would use whichever load hits most closely and reproducibly to POA, regardless of whether the bullet is HBWC, LSWCHP or anything else (hopefully not LRN).

Accuracy & precision trump all other ammunition-selection considerations, IMNSHO.

[314159]

Yup, a good point indeed. That would probably bode well for the 148 HBWC and the FBI load. I will have to compare.

To complicate matters, The M10 has a set of CTC laser grips and I also have a 2.5 inch performance center 686+ with adjustable sights that would like a good .38 +P light load.

For today's purposes I am concerned for the terminal ballistics side of the equation.

[Moonshot]

I'm no expert, and I'm sure many here will disagree with me, but if the barrel length is 2.5" or less, I'd stick with WCs.

A full size all steel K-frame will certainly be easier to shoot and will absorb recoil far beter than a J-frame, even an all steel J-frame, better trigger and better sights will aid in accuracy, but that short barrel won't provide any more bullet performance on target than that same round fired from a 1 7/8" airweight. Practice sessions will be more enjoyable, you should be better able to place that round where you want it, and follow up shots should be faster, but again, once that bullet leaves the barrel, it's not going to behave any differently than if it were fired from smaller, lighter gun.

I believe it has been said by people far smarter than I that a HP that fails to expand behaves more like FMJ or RNL, and will offer less wounding than a full WC. As I have no confidence that any +P HP - whether old school all lead or modern JHP, will reliably expand after passing through 4LD when fired from a 2" (+-) barrel, I'll stick with WCs.

YMMV

[314159]

Moonshot, that really is my sneaking suspicion as well. It seems a shame I can't make 30 something ounces work for me a little on this issue.

[HCM]

Seems like the old .38 HBWC is, once again,the consensus load for J frames. Makes sense to me.

However, I also have a 2 inch Model 10 K frame. So, for those with a steel frame, full size, yet short barrel (2 to 2.5 inch) revolver: what ammo could we upgrade to?

The gun is heavy enough so any hypothetical .38 +P+ load would be fine. The trigger is much, much better. Even the sights are far more useable. So, with recoil and shoot-ability issues covered, is there a JHP or SWCHP load that reliably passes modern tests reliably enough to go up to?

I've still got a stock of the old Remington FBI load, lots of Gold Dot 135 short barrel, and even a single box of Jim Cirillo's "Safestop" FMJ full wadcutters. I'm ready for whatever choice I suppose...

My Agency still authorizes J frames as personally BUG / off duty guns and we still have a limited amount of issue J frames as well. Duty load is the 135 grain +p God dot.

The 158 grain +p LSWCHP is a good load but AFAIK the last issued revolver round for the FBI was the Federal hydrashok 147 +p+.

Between the two I prefer +p but there are no magic bullets. I am fond of quoting the late professional hunter Finn Aagard “shot placement is 90% of killing power.” Therefore I would go with what hits POA/POI for your gun.

Re: wadcutters: The rationale for wadcutters in J frames, particularly lightweight J frames, is not just lack of expansion /terminal performance but rather reduced recoil improving accuracy / shot placement. In a K frame steel snub that is not really a factor.

If you don’t believe a HP will expand from your 2” barrel a better option would be the old NYPD issue loaf, the 158 grain +p LSWC (not hp). To quote the late Pat Rogers “it worked pretty good if you could shoot.”

[314159]

I am showing my age/mis-informed status perhaps. When I refer to the FBI load, I am naming the 158 +P LSWCHP loads. Never saw any of the 147 +P+ stuff available.

[BehindBlueI's]

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

Sample size of one, but I chest shot an angry pitbull with Winchester bonded out of my LCR and it worked as advertised.

[HCM]

I am showing my age/mis-informed status perhaps. When I refer to the FBI load, I am naming the 158 +P LSWCHP loads. Never saw any of the 147 +P+ stuff available.

The 158 +p LSWCHP is generally known as the FBI load or the Chicago PD load. FBI used If for decades. In the late 1980s / early 190s they went to the hydrashok load as part of the push for improved performance post Miami shoot out.

Whether the hydrashok was actually better then the traditional 158 LSWC hollow point is a question for DOCGKR.

The FBI LSWCHP load has a proven record in actual shootings as long as intermediate barriers aren’t a factor.

With regard to the Jim Cirillo ammo. Regardless of its virtues, anything out of production, which you have one one box of is not really a viable carry load. While function isn’t as much of an issue in a revelover, you need to know the POA/POI of your carry ammo. Also, ammo actually carried and exposed to the elements, dirts, sweat etc etc should be replaced at least annually.

[314159]

On the Safestop load, understood. I'll just put in my j-frame until it is all gone/aged out. Just expended 5 rounds a week ago and it shoots to POA with conventional HBWC loads.

[Totem Polar]

The FBI LSWCHP load has a proven record in actual shootings as long as intermediate barriers aren’t a factor.

This. The good thing about the "FBI" load (or the lesser-known "RCMP" load) is that there is indeed enough track record to make theoretical discussions moot. Short answer: for 2" K-frames, Remington's version has a respectable record in shootings, with the same acknowledgement that we've come a ways down the road in bullet design with regard to intermediate barriers.

The Remmy is my go-to short-barrel load for anything that isn't a lightweight 5-shot. Granted, I'm a very low-speed guy, so grain of salt and all that, but the actual usage stats aren't bad. Shoots pretty much to POA with all my K-frames, too.

[Moonshot]

If you don’t believe a HP will expand from your 2” barrel a better option would be the old NYPD issue loaf, the 158 grain +p LSWC (not hp).

Not doubting you one bit, but as I understand things, a SWC does not cut a full caliber hole, rather the diameter is the same as the narrow top portion of the round. Additionally, if 148gr WCs penetrate on the high side, a 158gr SWC (with more mass and less surface area) will penetrate more.

As a woods load, I can see a 158gr +P SWC out of a steel revolver being a sound choice. Not sure about personal defense in an urban environment. Also, not sure what advantage a +P gives over standard pressure in a non-expanding round, other than penetration. I have relied on 158gr SWCs (standard pressure, non-HP) as my speed loader reload, but thats due to its shape, not its performance, and I am working on speeding up my reloads using WCs.

Again, my knowledge is limited, and my personal experience limited still more. My doubts about HPs out of a 2" barrel come from reports read on this forum, as well as others, where they often failed to expand after passing through 4LD, especially if it was cold outside. As my J-frame is often carried on my ankle, and it's cold where I live 9 months a year, that factor concerns me.

[HCM]

Not doubting you one bit, but as I understand things, a SWC does not cut a full caliber hole, rather the diameter is the same as the narrow top portion of the round. Additionally, if 148gr WCs penetrate on the high side, a 158gr SWC (with more mass and less surface area) will penetrate more.

As a woods load, I can see a 158gr +P SWC out of a steel revolver being a sound choice. Not sure about personal defense in an urban environment. Also, not sure what advantage a +P gives over standard pressure in a non-expanding round, other than penetration. I have relied on 158gr SWCs (standard pressure, non-HP) as my speed loader reload, but thats due to its shape, not its performance, and I am working on speeding up my reloads using WCs.

Again, my knowledge is limited, and my personal experience limited still more. My doubts about HPs out of a 2" barrel come from reports read on this forum, as well as others, where they often failed to expand after passing through 4LD, especially if it was cold outside. As my J-frame is often carried on my ankle, and it's cold where I live 9 months a year, that factor concerns me.

I grew up with several NYPD. officers who used that load effectively but that’s not the point.

The point is not whether it “cuts a full hole” but rather shot placement and adequate penetration to reach vitals. That could include shooting through winter clothing or shooting through an intervening body part like an arm or hand.

One former co-worker of mine used this load in a subway car. The bullet passed through the suspect, ricocheted twice and struck him in the upper forehead. The bullet broke the skin and followed the curve of his skull under the skin for a few inches.

The point of that story (besides over penetration being a thing) is bullets do funny things in the real world and you knew know exactly what they are going to do.

Factory wadcutters are target loads, as such they are loaded to low velocities. As a trade off for shootability it’s worthwhile in alloy J frames because shot placement > terminal performance. In a steel K frame, I would choose either the classic FBI load or similar, if the hollow point expands, great, but I’m not counting on it either way.

You could hand load a WC to higher velocities but hand loading defense ammunition in 21st century America is a non starter.

[Trooper224]

I've seen good results with both the old FBI load and the 135 grain Speer GDHP+P out of a snubbie. I'd feel adequately prepared with either one of those in my gat. I currently use the Gold Dot, but if I couldn't find any I'd have no problem with the feeb load. The HBWC is a good choice in a J frame sized gun because of the limitations of the gun, not because of any special sauce the HBWC provides. In that case, it's a matter of making the most with what you have. With a larger steel gun you have more options.

[OlongJohnson]

What about a 148-grain double-ended wadcutter? I believe there are some plated ones around. May not be quite as Bullseye-accurate as a HBWC, but will be shorter overall so should stabilize better and stay accurate to longer range, while still cutting the full-size WC hole. Its more solid construction may deal with intermediate barriers better and allow loading to slightly higher velocities.

https://underwoodammo.com/product/handgun-ammo/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter/

[willie]

I think the two would perform the same. HBWC's enter these discussions because some suggest turning them "backwards" so that the hollow end forms a hollow point. Unless I'm interpreting Doc's wrings incorrectly, this arrangement is not his recommendation. His recommendation is a wadcutter loaded in the traditional manner. A double-ended wadcutter is solid and looks the same on both ends. The reason is that the handloader can pick them up and place them in cases without checking to see which end is going in. Most wadcutters have a crimp groove. Double-ended ones would have a groove on each end. The other solid variety has a crimp groove on one end only. Both types are solid in the sense that neither has a hollow base.

[Frank R]

The K-frame 38's did best with 158gr. loads from an accuracy standpoint. If you want one on the warm side, here's a good one from Buffalo Bore.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

[Totem Polar]

The K-frame 38's did best with 158gr. loads from an accuracy standpoint. If you want one on the warm side, here's a good one from Buffalo Bore.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

I’ve shot enough of that load out of my 4" NY-1 to buy dinner at a good restaurant in Lima. It’s very warm. Honestly, I wish BB would dial it down about 85fps. The old RCMP was reportedly 1000fps out of 4", as was the Cor-bon iteration. The BB is killer out of a 4 5/8" Blackhawk, though.

What I’d really like to see in .38 is a +P Gold Dot 147 grain going around 950-975 out of a 4" K-frame.

[SAWBONES]

The FBI LSWCHP load has a proven record in actual shootings as long as intermediate barriers aren’t a factor.
...
While function isn’t as much of an issue in a revelover, you need to know the POA/POI of your carry ammo.


Though only occasionally used for CCW, my much-loved older humpback S&W 649 .38 Special +P has perfect correspondence between POA and POI with the Remington 158gr LSWCHP+P, so that's what I carry in it.

The Speer Gold Dot 135gr+P Short Barrel load hits low.
148gr wadcutters hit low.

(FWIW, both the Winchester and Remington 158gr LSWCHP loads hit at POA, but the Remington bullet is softer lead, and the load also shoots noticeably cleaner than the same offering from Winchester, IME.)

[camsdaddy]

For years I have read the recommendation of the 135 gold dot. Until recently I have not been able to find them in stock anywhere. I do have a box I got in a trade but I hate to admit their age. I carry them in my snub. I have a model 60 and shoot a lot of 158 lswc and 148 Dewc. I am trying to figure out if I want to carry gold dots, standard pressure lswc, or full wadcutter. I have found them all in stock.

[revchuck38]

I had a 2" M10 no-dash for a while and sold it. It was a sweet gun, but I have an excellent IWB for my 4" K frames so it offered no improvement for concealment. It shot to POA with 158-grain loads, period. I don't doubt that the new 130-135 grain loads are ballistically superior to the old 158-grain LSWCHP, but I'd rather have good shot placement with a decent load than a POI 4-5" below POA at 7 yards (my experience with the 130-135-grain loads) with the new stuff.

[camsdaddy]

I shoot my 60 from 0-25+ yards so I guess poi is definitely a factor.