Intuit, Quickbooks steals tens of thousands of dollars from Gunsite

[Erick Gelhaus]

Another example of a business outside the community attacking on a financial level. I just confirmed the accuracy of the story with Campbell. Actions, behavior such as this ought to scare everyone if a company is going to steal your money because they despise your product.

Story here:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/kat-ainsworth/intuit-quickbooks-severs-ties-with-gunsite-academy-reverses-tens-of-thousands-in-credit-card-charges/

[blues]

I severed ties with Intuit a good fifteen years or more ago as a result of their unethical behavior in regards to how they managed both Quicken and TurboTax. Good to see that my assessment of their corporate character and culture were spot on.

I hope Gunsite takes them to the cleaners via the courts. There is no way that any court worth its salt would let this stand.

[Dog Guy]

Anybody have a suggested replacement for Quicken and TurboTax for personal finances?

[blues]

Anybody have a suggested replacement for Quicken and TurboTax for personal finances?

I went from TurboTax to TaxAct about a dozen years ago...now that TaxAct has jacked their prices, I used FreeTaxUSA this year for the first time and it was stellar. Federal return free, $12.95 for the federal.

I don't use personal finance software like Quicken anymore, but I do track a portfolio on Morningstar at no cost.

Here's a list of some alternatives to Quicken:

https://www.google.com/search?q=alternatives+to+quicken&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS581US581&oq=alternatives+to+quick&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j69i57j0l3.3880j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[holmes168]

I’ve used quicken for 15 years. I have no idea how to get switched off. It’s the only thing I know :mad:

[BehindBlueI's]

Anybody have a suggested replacement for Quicken and TurboTax for personal finances?


I’ve used quicken for 15 years. I have no idea how to get switched off. It’s the only thing I know :mad:


Quicken is NOT owned by Intuit. It got spun off a few years ago.

[SeriousStudent]

Very interesting. I'll be sure and mention this to our accounting team.

Time to go buy some Gunsite coffee mugs as gifts!

[GardoneVT]

While this does suck, businesses (especially firearms related businesses) really should get in the habit of reading the Acceptable Use Policy for any services they use.

https://quickbooks.intuit.com/payments/legal/TOC102017/acceptable-use/

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180519/9bbd611ee7600d84bb284a23bb12dd7e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180519/8d15a62a3312f689aee28d53d1a83344.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180519/ded09ab3516f4d0db6aeedb8a1e5173a.jpg

Indeed.

Intuit states plainly firearms aren’t allowed as per their terms and conditions. That means this is Gunsite’s screwup. They should have done due diligence and ensured their credit card processor was on board with a business relationship involving a gun business.

It sucks that there’s held money Gunsite is losing temporarily, but A) those are credit card charges being refunded back to the customers and B) Gunsite is still entitled to payment for goods and services rendered. They just have to call the customers and get checks or some other payment arranged instead of CCs due to the refunds.

[blues]

I went from TurboTax to TaxAct about a dozen years ago...now that TaxAct has jacked their prices, I used FreeTaxUSA this year for the first time and it was stellar. Federal return free, $12.95 for the federal.

I don't use personal finance software like Quicken anymore, but I do track a portfolio on Morningstar at no cost.

Here's a list of some alternatives to Quicken:

https://www.google.com/search?q=alternatives+to+quicken&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS581US581&oq=alternatives+to+quick&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j69i57j0l3.3880j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I meant to say $12.95 for the state return. Sorry for the error above.

[Hawker800]

I’d hate to mess with people who are professional gunslingers.[emoji57]

[mtnbkr]

I’d hate to mess with people who are professional gunslingers.[emoji57]

Because they'll do what exactly over a non-criminal legal issue?

Maybe I'm oversensitive at 6am, but I really get tired of the "don't mess with the gun dudes" meme. The response will be the same whether they're gunslingers or pastry slingers.

Chris

[Pacioli]

This is not new. Several financial institutions have decided not to bank or process gun related businesses. Intuit handled this badly by reversing the funds instead of simply stating a stop date and informing the customer. As to it being on Gunsite, well I've never read the fine print when onboarding a new credit card processor and I don't think anyone does. Not anymore than anyone reads click-through software end user agreements (EULAs). The Intuit rep should have been the one to raise the point.

What infuriates me is that nobody on the left will acknowledge the hypocrisy in this. Liberals will, and have, forced conservatives to perform services that violate their beliefs by taking them through a liberal court district. Bakers and photographers for gay weddings for instance. But the left will praise Intuit's actions as a creative "by any means necessary" way to squash activity they deem undesirable.

I would like to see federal level agencies (Comptroller of the Currency, Federal Reserve Bank, Justice Dpt, whoever has the jurisdiction to whack pee-pees at banks) tell these pantywaist bankers that their federal/state charters will be yanked if they refuse service to people engaged in a legal commerce, even if the bank doesn't like. Everyone gets to ride the bus.

[MistWolf]

Was Gunsite using Quicken for "MOTO firearms and weapons sales"?

[MistWolf]

Dopey me. I should have read the article before commenting.

[RevolverRob]

So, while I agree that Gunsite should have been more diligent in reading the terms of use for Quickbooks. If the discussion as presented in the article is accurate...


About ten days ago the Gunsite bookkeeper found herself on the receiving end of a phone call from QuickBooks. The company felt there was “trouble” because they had realized Gunsite sold knives and guns on their website. This, the QuickBooks rep said, meant sales weren’t face-to-face and “kids could buy them.”

Gunsite took the time to patiently, politely educate the rep on how FFLs work and explain the laws and processes of firearm sales. Once the process and regulations were laid out, the rep backpedaled, saying now that they understood the procedure, it was alright after all and business could continue.

Then I feel like what QuickBooks should do is release the monies and terminate the contract with Gunsite (moot point, but you get the idea). Because the Gunsite Bookkeeper was apparently given the go ahead by an Intuit Rep. Even if the Rep was mistaken, there is a good faith component here. While not contractually bound in this scenario, good faith would dictate that a Rep giving you the go ahead is sufficient for you to not think you were in the wrong and were not willfully operating in violation of QuickBook's terms. At least, to my mind, all monies received after this discussion with the Rep should be released to Gunsite, because they believed they were operating free and clear.

Monies received prior to this rep, could be held and refunded.

Also, firearms sales do happen face-to-face, given that firearms must be shipped to a licensed FFL and the transfer occurs between FFL holders to an end-user in person (therefore Intuit's policy isn't technically accurate...). Additionally, money paid out for firearms training and other items should be not be refunded to the payers, because that is not in violation of the services. The only real violation here is knife sales (and only if knives count as "weapons" in a broadly stated policy by Intuit). If they hold and return all money owed to Gunsite, then off to court this should go, in my opinion.

IANAL and the laws may vary. But contracts are only as strong as the words and terms used to describe them. Given what is here (a kind of boilerplate that doesn't get into the realized nuance of the situation), a decent contract lawyer can probably have the funds released in an out-of-court settlement fairly quickly.

[WobblyPossum]

Damn, I really liked using TurboTax these last few years. I'll check out the alternatives Blues posted.

[blues]

Damn, I really liked using TurboTax these last few years. I'll check out the alternatives Blues posted.

Dan, I'd go straight to FreeTaxUSA, (or it's parent TaxHawk, essentially the same thing). I was leery at first due to the goofy name but it was able to upload my tax return from TaxAct, (and does the same for TurboTax as I recall), and was very intuitive and quick to use. Everything I needed for our federal and state returns was readily available.

Data input is very easy though you can't just skip around and do just the forms as I used to do. You kind of have to follow the program from one section of the return to the next...but it's easy to tell it that a particular area doesn't apply and move on. You can always return to a section you may have skipped over.

I'll be using it again next year unless they have a large, unexpected price increase.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Apparently, Lone Wolf Distributors and Flint River Armory were hit for $150,000 by Intuit et al.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/kat-ainsworth/intuit-strikes-again-holds-lone-wolf-distributors-money/

For those concerned about TTAG's veracity, I confirmed the original story with Gunsite COO Ken Campbell before sharing.

[blues]

Apparently, Lone Wolf Distributors and Flint River Armory were hit for $150,000 by Intuit et al.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/kat-ainsworth/intuit-strikes-again-holds-lone-wolf-distributors-money/

For those concerned about TTAG's veracity, I confirmed the original story with Gunsite COO Ken Campbell before sharing.

This is not the America I was brought up in...nor is it the America I want. This country has lost its way.

[Spartan1980]

Damn it. I literally just spent weeks trying out various small business accounting software packages and settled on Quickbooks because it is the only one I could find that could connect to my bank and access my business accounts. Fuck me.

Don't feel too alone. I've been looking for an alternative for about 5 years now. I've found nothing suitable for a small LLC or S Corp running out of a home that needs to do automated payroll tax filings and payments. I do my filings and payments monthly and it takes me literally maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing out there (that I've found) that's affordable for this and it pisses me off too. Quickbooks Payroll seems to be a monopoly in this regard.

[RoyGBiv]

FWIW... I use OnPay for Payroll with QB integration.
They also support Xero, which I have not done much research on... https://www.xero.com/us/

If anyone has any info to share on Xero, I'd be interested..

[JFK]

Damn it. I literally just spent weeks trying out various small business accounting software packages and settled on Quickbooks because it is the only one I could find that could connect to my bank and access my business accounts. Fuck me.

Try Xero. I switched from QB two years ago. It is less expensive and pretty easy to use. Easy to integrate Credit Cards Via Stripe or Square and will download the bank transactions.

www.xero.com

[RoyGBiv]

Try Xero. I switched from QB two years ago. It is less expensive and pretty easy to use. Easy to integrate Credit Cards Via Stripe or Square and will download the bank transactions.

www.xero.com

Square is not gun friendly.
Don't know about Stripe.

[TDA]

I’m pretty unhappy that I signed up for Mint.com and will be bailing out of that asap. In retrospect, what a stupid idea!

[BehindBlueI's]

I’m pretty unhappy that I signed up for Mint.com and will be bailing out of that asap. In retrospect, what a stupid idea!

I just did the "delete account" and with the exit questionnaire I told them I no longer trusted their integrity enough to allow them to have my financial information based on their dealings with Gunsite, etc.

[Pacioli]

Representative Jeb Hendsarling (R-Tx)has a strong 2nd amendment record. But I think he elected to step out of the batters box yesterday on CNBC with this comment.

"Anybody who believes in the Second Amendment is free not to do business with Citi and free not to do business BofA," Hensarling, who is not seeking re-election, said in a "Squawk Box" interview. "There are plenty of other banks out there who respect the Second Amendment perhaps even more." The Texas Republican, who is chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said private institutions, including large national banks, should be able to have their own culture.

Culture? Since when does your culture give you the right to discriminate against legal activity? I am very disappointed. People like Hensarling (House Financial Services Committee) should be the vanguard ensuring fair and equal access to banking services. Very disappointing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/hensarling-upset-shareholders-can-leave-banks-that-cut-off-gunmakers.html

[Hambo]

Since when does your culture give you the right to discriminate against legal activity?

It's America. They're free to run their business as they see fit, and you're free to do business with them or business or not. Companies and corporations have been doing stuff to other companies and corporations forever, so this is nothing new. It's just aimed at gun related companies and gun owners, and those are not protected classes.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's America. They're free to run their business as they see fit, and you're free to do business with them or business or not. Companies and corporations have been doing stuff to other companies and corporations forever, so this is nothing new. It's just aimed at gun related companies and gun owners, and those are not protected classes.

If you believe in a free market, there should be no protected classes and no right to forbid classes access to the market. Free market means free access to the marketplace. Restricting access to a certain segment that could otherwise participate is, by definition, anti-free market. If you offer widgets for $x, everyone with $x can buy a widget.

What we are seeing is a regulated market where those with more economic pull are deciding what's good for the rest of us. It is a smaller version of a cartel, but with social engineering as the goal instead of profit manipulation. If you believe that supply and demand set price, restricting supply of financial options for gun related businesses will necessarily increase the price they pay for financing, etc.

[VT1032]

It's America. They're free to run their business as they see fit, and you're free to do business with them or business or not. Companies and corporations have been doing stuff to other companies and corporations forever, so this is nothing new. It's just aimed at gun related companies and gun owners, and those are not protected classes.

Several recent court decisions would tend to disagree with you. I personally agree that businesses should be free to run their businesses as they see fit and you can in turn take your money elsewhere, but the courts don't seem to hold that opinion:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/court-rules-against-oregon-bakers-who-refused-make-gay-wedding-n833321

https://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/

[Pacioli]

My position is that if you are open for business, you are open for business for everyone. I thought we settled this in the 60s.

[blues]

My position is that if you are open for business, you are open for business for everyone. I thought we settled this in the 60s.

Jim Crow laws for gun owners and businesses. It's all the rage.

[RoyGBiv]

If government can require businesses to comply with ADA, and workplace safety laws, and every other of the thousands of laws businesses are required to follow, I don't have any heartburn about requiring businesses to not discriminate against an enumerated right.

[Pacioli]

OK, perhaps not the most apt analogy.

Denying banking services is a very effective means of killing a business. Can I go "across the street" and get what I need? Yes, for now, until all or most of the banks decide they don't like my business. But is it legal for a bank to discriminate based on their like or dislike of activity which is not illegal. I don't think it is. And I don't think the issue is being addressed properly, or even seriously, by those who can, and should, step in.

[blues]

OK, perhaps not the most apt analogy.

Denying banking services is a very effective means of killing a business. Can I go "across the street" and get what I need? Yes, for now, until all or most of the banks decide they don't like my business. But is it legal for a bank to discriminate based on their like or dislike of activity which is not illegal. I don't think it is. And I don't think the issue is being addressed properly, or even seriously, by those who can, and should, step in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your analogy. It's a matter of degree, of course, (not to mention human suffering), but the principle is similar.

You are not making light of anyone's struggle.

Will there be schools, water fountains, motels and neighborhoods that gun owners won't be able to attend or utilize? Will their children be kept off buses?

This does not denigrate the civil rights movement, nor the suffering of those who were the victims of vicious Jim Crow laws. In fact, many former fringe groups benefited by learning from the struggles of those who fought the status quo, and have adopted their methods for getting justice.

Are we law abiding citizens not good enough?

[RoyGBiv]

Can I go "across the street" and get what I need? Yes, for now, until all or most of the banks decide they don't like my business. But is it legal for a bank to discriminate based on their like or dislike of activity which is not illegal. I don't think it is. And I don't think the issue is being addressed properly, or even seriously, by those who can, and should, step in.
Agreed...

Can a bank check your social media and deny your patronage based on your opinions expressed therein?

Much of non-discrimination law (race, gender, etc) was defined well after 1789, IIRC. (/sarc)
Why are businesses able to discriminate against an originalist civil right, but not against those that are gender-non-conforming?

Boggles.

[Rich@CCC]

I'm researching merchant banks and gateway providers right now in order to sever ties with Intuit completely. I've been using Quick Books software and Quick Books Merchant Services for a long time as they were the best fit and the least offensive when I first set things up. That's obviously not the case today.

Mr. Campbell recommended Sage 50 (formerly Peach Tree) as far as book keeping software goes but stated that he was still looking for the perfect fit in a merchant service.
https://www.sage.com/en-us/cp/sage-50cloud-accounting/?utm_source=GOOGLE&utm_medium=Paid-Search&utm_campaign=USEN_Brand_Legacy_Peachtree_BMM%2FPM_ SA50C&utm_term=%2Bpeachtree+%2Bsoftware&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKa9uK2c2wIVG7bACh18SQ4TEAAYASAA EgIt_PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CLXqj76tnNsCFcfIwAodIyUABg

[RoyGBiv]

I'm researching merchant banks and gateway providers right now in order to sever ties with Intuit completely. I've been using Quick Books software and Quick Books Merchant Services for a long time as they were the best fit and the least offensive when I first set things up. That's obviously not the case today.

Mr. Campbell recommended Sage 50 (formerly Peach Tree) as far as book keeping software goes but stated that he was still looking for the perfect fit in a merchant service.
https://www.sage.com/en-us/cp/sage-50cloud-accounting/?utm_source=GOOGLE&utm_medium=Paid-Search&utm_campaign=USEN_Brand_Legacy_Peachtree_BMM%2FPM_ SA50C&utm_term=%2Bpeachtree+%2Bsoftware&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkKa9uK2c2wIVG7bACh18SQ4TEAAYASAA EgIt_PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CLXqj76tnNsCFcfIwAodIyUABg

FWIW, we signed up via PaymentDepot.com and like the rates (https://paymentdepot.com/how-it-works/#section-pricing).
The merchant service agreement is here (https://www.tsys.com/DOCUMENTS/). No mention of "gun" or "fire" in the document. Please let me know if you find otherwise.
Gateweay is Authorize.net. Their MSA is here (https://www.authorize.net/content/dam/authorize/documents/Authorize.Net_Service_Agreement.pdf). (link opens PDF).
Also no mention of gun or fire.... I'm not in the gun business, so, I didn't spend a lot of time scouring the agreements for way they might screw gun businesses, so, caveat emptor.

[RoyGBiv]

^^^ Hence the caveat. Thanks!

Interesting that my agreements with tsys and auth don't mention guns anywhere.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Bayou Renaissance Man has an email exchange with the Intuit CEO posted here:

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2018/05/an-e-mail-conversation-with-intuit.html

And American Rifleman has picked this up:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/5/23/fear-loading-quickbooks-cancels-contract-with-gunsite/

[Tabasco]

We will win this fight, because we believe in our cause more than our opponent believes in theirs.

[41magfan]

https://www.facebook.com/317603274452/posts/10156987117869453/