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JodyH
02-12-2012, 01:17 PM
Kind of a take-off on the "Armed Robber" thread.

What are some techniques you can use to indicate that you are a "hard target"?
I really think this should be broken down into two phases.
The first phase is when you are being sized up as a potential target by the bad guy.
The second phase is when you've been selected as a probable target.
In corporate speak it would be the initial application selection and then being called in for an interview.
On the street phase one would be the car slowly cruising past while the occupants are eye-balling you.
Phase two would be the car makes a u-turn and one or more occupants get out to approach you.

Dr. No
02-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Kind of a take-off on the "Armed Robber" thread.

What are some techniques you can use to indicate that you are a "hard target"?
I really think this should be broken down into two phases.
The first phase is when you are being sized up as a potential target by the bad guy.
The second phase is when you've been selected as a probable target.
In corporate speak it would be the initial application selection and then being called in for an interview.
On the street phase one would be the car slowly cruising past while the occupants are eye-balling you.
Phase two would be the car makes a u-turn and one or more occupants get out to approach you.

I would think carrying a pistol on your hip and "POLICE" across your chest would indicate you are a hard target.

I have still been attacked while wearing both.

I think no matter who you are or what you look like, situational awareness is more of a key than anything. It also depends on your predator. If he is 6'5" 300# he might be less afraid of you no matter what size you are. If he's carrying a pistol he may not give a shit that you are a hard core bad ass.

A story I heard from a friend:

He was in this city with some guys who were doing bad things to bad people. They were drinking heavily in a bar and the subject of this story went out back of the bar to piss in the alley. Said subject is a hardened special forces soldier and looks like he lifts weights every 15 minutes. Two guys followed him into the alley and as he was shaking his equipment to put it away walked up to him and displayed a knife and said "give me all your money". He turned and said "Sorry, all I have are hundreds" and in the moment that it took them to register what he said, he broke one guy's nose and stabbed the other guy with his own knife. He then drunkenly stumbled back into the bar and informed his buds they needed to GTFO.

I also relate this to the "rack a shotgun and bad guys will piss their pants in fear" analogy. You cannot depend on a trinket or a motion that will discourage an attack.

You best defense is seeing the attack coming, getting inside your enemy's OODA loop, and attacking with viciousness and brutality to end the fight before they know what happens.

My .02.

JHC
02-12-2012, 02:06 PM
Phase 1: There are the old standby's of walking erect and alert and aware; with confidence or a sense of purpose. IMO this should be expanded to look like you are really studying your surroundings. As though YOU are looking for someone. I've noticed persons seeming to go out of their way to avoid eye contact or close contact in Atlanta this way.

Phase 2: I saw an example of this when a carload of very sketchy looking individuals pulled their car over to closely follow my spouse and I as we walked down a sidewalk; late on a deserted street in Seattle many years ago. When I glanced over my shoulder and saw their intense stares like a bird dog on point from their car literally creeping along behind us, I forcefully shoved my wife away from my side toward the buildings and said "MOVE AWAY!" And I very slowly walked along sideways watching them with my right hand hanging loosely in front of my open suit coat. (Colt 1911 and two spare mags on board). After a spell I could only guess must have been some number of seconds; less than a minute surely, they peeled out and sped away. I was in the Army, wearing a high fade (hair) and may have looked like a cop. Or the Soldier I was. I think the shoving of my wife AWAY from me vs clutching her closer (like in the movies) was key. The literal gunfighter position hovering my hand in front of my open suit coat on top of the shove should have been pretty explicit.

If I conclude I've been targetted, I'm not being timid about demonstrating I am not to be f&$@ed with. Variations on the theme have worked a few more times over the years; New Orleans, Atlanta.

JHC
02-12-2012, 02:16 PM
"Sorry, all I have are hundreds"
My .02.

Truly epic.

But surely you have some idea of how to stop the assault before it can commence and before a brutal and violent counter assault can be launched. ???

NETim
02-12-2012, 02:18 PM
I'll take "Keep your head on a swivel" for $500, Alex.

Dr. No
02-12-2012, 02:40 PM
Truly epic.

But surely you have some idea of how to stop the assault before it can commence and before a brutal and violent counter assault can be launched. ???

Usually for me it's been overwhelming aggression. If I roll into a scene where I have the authority to bring chaos and pain to restore order, I will do so or let people know my intention to do so before they even have a chance to think about other options.

I have still had multiple people fight, run, etc on me - regardless of what I've done.

That being said, I'm sure I have stopped numerous attacks or flights before they have started by reading people and making it very clear that I was going to make them do what I wanted. Your example of challenging said shitbags while feigning an index to a weapon is a perfect example.

Once a target is aware of the impending attack, the attacker has lost the element of surprise and sometimes will abort.

Again this goes back to situational awareness and violence of action. Once you see it and recognize it, you must end the fight brutally and quickly to avoid your own injury.

The only time I have been injured on the job through an assault was a foot pursuit with a wanted subject that lasted over 3 minutes in which we tied up and fought in 5 different locations. I later found out he was an amateur MMA fighter.

Al T.
02-12-2012, 08:29 PM
I vote for the "head on a swivel", making eye contact early and only talking on the darn phone when in a secure place.

Secondary, I stay out of gas stations (stop and robs) at all costs and generally up grade my carry gun in banks.

jslaker
02-12-2012, 09:41 PM
If he is 6'5" 300# he might be less afraid of you no matter what size you are.

Agreed, though I've certainly noticed that being a large guy yourself doesn't hurt. I'm 6'3 and around 255; I've definitely noticed that I get hassled less than people that are more average in size. I don't take that as a free pass by any means, but being aware of how your own size can act in or against your favor is certainly worthwhile.

I actually had a homeless guy approach me a few weeks ago and start of his spiel with the usual "my name is and I'm homeless" line, then pause for a second before adding "please don't shoot or stab me, man." I didn't have any weapons on me at the time (I was drinking in a downtown area where there are generally a half dozen cops on any square block -- e.g., one of the few public places I don't mind being disarmed), so I was fairly amused that I apparently project the right vibe that I appear to be someone to be left alone. :)

EDIT:

Also worth noting that I'd seen the guy well before he'd seen me and was keeping an eye on him as I approached his general direction. I wasn't aggressive toward him, but I didn't shy away as he was getting closer, either. I think there's something to be said for carrying yourself with confidence, as well.

Dr. No
02-13-2012, 07:36 AM
Too funny.

That actually reminds me of a story. My partner, aka "Moose" for the purposes of this story, is 6'4" 275. He was in the Navy for years and is generally one of the nicest people you will ever meet. When he chooses to put down the pain, it is fairly entertaining to watch. For the record I am the "small guy" at 6' 175#.

We go to a family violence assault call and arrest the husband. I'm outside dealing with the wife/kids and Moose and another Officer are upstairs with the gang banger turd. They hook him up and start to walk him down the stairs. As soon as he sees her he goes into "impress" mode and starts to do the usual "fuck the po-leese" and "you can't ever take me" and "no jail can hold me" blah blah blah. He starts thrashing around and pulling away while in handcuffs. I detach my taser cartridge but think about it and tell Moose "take him to the ground". Turd pulls away again and Moose slings him to the ground, abruptly landing on top of him with a giant "OOOF" and a quick ex-halation of air. Moose says "You done dude?" Turd: "Yes sir".

He was quiet as hell after that. Down at the jail they take his cuffs off and tell him to put his hands on the counter. He says "Uh, my shoulder has been messed up and I can't move it now". Moose starts to get worried that he really hurt the guy and asks him if he was hurt during the struggle. "Nah sir, I shouldn't have fucked with you. Why couldn't I have fucked with the skinny cop?"

I think we all learned something that day.

BaiHu
02-13-2012, 10:50 AM
As the small guy of the group-nearly always. I'm 5'6" 130#, I've always had to be the insane one in order to back people off me as a younger kid. Luckily I'm the Danny DeVito of 'Twins' and my brother is Ahhnuld and he was 4 years older and 1.5 times the size of anyone in HIS grade, so I had a solid 'training partner' in the house.

Anyway, as I got into my 20's and my martial training hit a major stride, I found two things kept me safest.

1) Knowing what was happening at all times-ie Hyper Vigilance. Which included me always being the designated driver and never drinking more than I was capable of staying alert and able to drive. In addition to going to less places that could have 'situations' as I got older. Amusing and interesting when you're younger, but increasing the odds of finding trouble as you get older. As the old adage goes, "nothing good happens after midnight".

2) Getting out of a place before it turned bad. IMO, there is no reason to fight unless the fight has been taken to you first-you can, IMO NEVER know all the variables. The two thugs you think you know are totally alone and you can handle it end up having a cousin that is the bar tender who hits you in the head with a bat.

As an example how I handle things. I had a g/f who liked going to this 80's club in Newark occasionally. Her cousin was a DJ and it was mostly a safe kind of crowd. However, a new variable was introduced-we brought a pop tart of a girl with us. Ya know, the kind that dances like a stripper and then wonders why everyone is looking at her like she's a stripper?

While I'm watching, I see 2 guys approach her for the SNL bump n' grind. She seems fine with it-I don't care as long as she's on the floor, but then they start ushering her to 'the bar' for a drink. My ass they're taking her to the bar.

Now for the situational awareness and layout of the place. It is 'U' shaped and the bar is a line in the middle of the 'U'. The back of the 'U' where it connects the two vertical lines is where the bathrooms are. They were taking her to 'the bathroom' for a little fun.

Back to the story. So she's a tart and she thinks they're nice, but I know one thing about 'taking her to the bathroom', it get's bottle necked right along the corner. So as she's following them, I wait until the guys are engaged in the bottle neck sandwich and I grab this girl by her belt and pants almost like a wedgie and I yank her right into my arms and shove her behind me and say, "not tonight guys". At this point they're stuck and I take pop tart and my g/f and GTFO ASAP.

I'm not big, I can't carry a gun in NJ, but I'm confident with my hands/feet/mind, but I'll never START a fight in order to STOP a fight when I don't know if I have a) solid back up I can count on and b) an overwhelming advantage.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-13-2012, 12:35 PM
I think the "Hard target" indicators are only a general help, because most hoodies aren't all that smart and don't take indicators well.

I'd rather be thought of as "grey" than "hard".

LOKNLOD
02-13-2012, 02:01 PM
I think the "Hard target" indicators are only a general help, because most hoodies aren't all that smart and don't take indicators well.

I'd rather be thought of as "grey" than "hard".

Human concrete. Grey and ubiquitous, but hard as rock.

TCinVA
02-14-2012, 12:40 PM
I wish I knew a fool-proof method.

Example: Christmas eve, 2010. I pulled into a local gas station to fill up after I'd been at dinner with Todd, VMI-MO, LL, and several others following a brief outing at the NRA range. It was late and this place was the only one open. For the first time in umpteen years I actually went inside to pay cash. As I entered I noticed a skeezy looking dude trying to look casual. As I exited he was across the station, but immediately vectored in on me. With my back turned to him he increased his approach speed dramatically, almost at a full run. I was watching him using the reflections in windows and on the finish of cars.

I picked my Alamo line and spun on him with the mild challenge at first, which served to slow his approach, but he still kept encroaching. I kept making distance, he kept advancing and it went from ruse request to "give me some ***CENSORED*** money"....and that's when I upped the verbal challenge to maximum level while I established the master grip on my P30 and actually began the draw stroke. (his right hand was in his pocket the whole time he approached and never left it) Before my pistol cleared kydex he reconsidered his actions and took off like a scalded dog.

I was by no means the "softest" target at that gas station. It was the only place open and was full of people. A random group of teenage girls were there, a group of barely-able-to-drive hipsters in skinny jeans, out of town travelers...all sorts of people who were utterly oblivious to their surroundings that were smaller and weaker than me. Yet despite my awareness (because I locked eyes with the guy on multiple occasions prior to his final approach), despite my size, despite the fact I was wearing a FAST pin (trying to yank Todd's chain earlier) which advertises "Hey, I practice a drill fairly similar to pulling a pistol from concealment and using it to shoot you in the face.", this dude still picked me. I can only assume it was because I happened to be parked farthest from the line of sight of anyone in the gas station. And so with that choice aimed at preventing my Charger from being dinged by some knucklehead not paying attention in the gas station parking lot I ended up on this guy's "to rob" list despite all the signs that pointed to it being a really bad idea. He seemed oblivious to the implications of his failed attempt at an ambush (because I never let him get close to me), at a refusal to cooperate with a ruse, and at the body language of someone who dropped a bag of sundries and spun to go into an interview/pre-fight position.

The only thing that seemed to convince him that he was making a mistake was going extremely aggressive at maximum volume while beginning to produce a weapon I fully intended to shoot him in the face with the instant I saw anything but fingers emerge from the pocket of his pea-coat.

Sort of reminded me of the joke about one man telling another about reading a book on avoiding bear attacks. "You read the book, but did the bear read the book?" Apparently he didn't realize all that other stuff was supposed to convince him to leave me alone and find easier prey. Short of walking around wearing a hockey mask and a machete that's still dripping blood I don't know of a fool-proof way of advertising "screw with me and I'm going to cut your head off and put it on a stick." to the point where bad guys walk past you whistling rather than deciding to give it a go.

BaiHu
02-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Sort of reminded me of the joke about one man telling another about reading a book on avoiding bear attacks. "You read the book, but did the bear read the book?" Apparently he didn't realize all that other stuff was supposed to convince him to leave me alone and find easier prey.

:D Love it!

iakdrago
02-14-2012, 12:53 PM
despite the fact I was wearing a FAST pin

Blasphemy--the nerve. FAST pin stops robbers in their tracks. He is lucky that he did not drop 200 lbs that day.

TCinVA
02-14-2012, 01:00 PM
Blasphemy--the nerve. FAST pin stops robbers in their tracks. He is lucky that he did not drop 200 lbs that day.

Maybe if I was wearing one of the "Drop 200 pounds fast!" t-shirts it would have been an obvious enough clue that none of that nonsense would have transpired. I was too subtle.

...well, at least until I started screaming profanity and pulling a gun.

JRL
02-14-2012, 01:16 PM
.

...well, at least until I started screaming profanity and pulling a gun.

Do you recall what your "Alamo line" was or why you picked it, how close you let him get, or even what you said, or has it just blurred out?

I hadn't heard of different challenge levels before, or hadn't thought of them in that sense.

TCinVA
02-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Do you recall what your "Alamo line" was or why you picked it, how close you let him get, or even what you said, or has it just blurred out?

I hadn't heard of different challenge levels before, or hadn't thought of them in that sense.

It was a spot I picked that was about 10 yards away from the door of my car...which is where I ended up when I turned around and actively engaged him rather than just looking over my shoulder. It was the point at which he would have had absolutely no other reason for crossing other than trying to interact with me in some manner. I mentally said to myself "If he crosses that point he's definitely after me."

Once he hit that point I dropped what was in my hand as I turned to face him. In the instant where he changed direction to approach me as I walked out the door I distinctly remember thinking "***CENSORED***, I'm going to have to shoot this guy, aren't I?" I knew right then what was up, but it wouldn't have been kosher to draw on the guy at that point. I can't really identify what specific factors led me to think that, other than I noticed he was a skeezy looking character and that he looked like he was up to no good. When he zoned in on me I assumed he was going to try and rob me. The whole time I was letting the thing play out I was getting really pissed off that I was going to have to spend what remained of Christmas Eve in police custody explaining why my bullets were in this douchebag's anatomy.

If you've never been through SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts content, order the DVD he put out. It's an excellent game plan for handling just that sort of situation...the unknown dude approaching you thing, not the explaining the final resting place of your bullets while in police custody thing.

Al T.
02-14-2012, 01:31 PM
until I started screaming profanity and pulling a gun.

Works for me. :)

Remember, some of these folks are bug nuts insane. Friend of mine had to shoot a guy who just could not be intimidated. This was even after my buddy racked a round into the chamber of his shotgun. :eek:

The bad guy gets a vote too.

bcauz3y
02-14-2012, 01:35 PM
On this topic, I see a lot of discussion on the size of an adversary, or the size of the victim.

I can assure you that the hardened guys don't care one lick how big you are or how small they are. Chances are they've whipped a guy bigger than you already.

TCinVA
02-14-2012, 01:41 PM
On this topic, I see a lot of discussion on the size of an adversary, or the size of the victim.

I can assure you that the hardened guys don't care one lick how big you are or how small they are. Chances are they've whipped a guy bigger than you already.

...or maybe they've done enough criminal predation in their day that a normal looking clean-cut white guy isn't going to be terribly intimidating even if he is twice the size of the criminal assaulting him because they've never encountered serious resistance from such a person before.

Perhaps things would have been different if I'd have had a shaved head and face tats. Who knows.

That's the thing about bad guys...you never know what the one that's after you is going to respond to.

Magsz
02-14-2012, 01:41 PM
Dumb question for those more experienced but hear me out.

I would imagine that the best way to avoid conflict if you've been "targeted" is to do the "animal" thing. Square yourself to the target, eyes open, aggressive stance without looking like you're about to unleash a snap kick to the throat and an authoritative demeanor should voice have to be used.

The problem that i see with this is that i literally think human "predators" are too stupid to understand, due to instinct being bred out of us, that this may be a bad situation if they escalate it. They instead, see it as a challenge.

Am i right? Am i wrong?

My personal belief is that i want to remain unseen while seeing everything. Is that realistic?

BaiHu
02-14-2012, 01:56 PM
Magsz,

My answer to your question:
Am i right? Am i wrong?

My personal belief is that i want to remain unseen while seeing everything. Is that realistic?

Would be to re-read TCinVa's piece here:
...Perhaps things would have been different if I'd have had a shaved head and face tats. Who knows.

That's the thing about bad guys...you never know what the one that's after you is going to respond to.

Dropkick
02-14-2012, 02:16 PM
Dumb question for those more experienced but hear me out.
I would imagine that the best way to avoid conflict if you've been "targeted" is to do the "animal" thing. Square yourself to the target, eyes open, aggressive stance without looking like you're about to unleash a snap kick to the throat and an authoritative demeanor should voice have to be used.
The problem that i see with this is that i literally think human "predators" are too stupid to understand, due to instinct being bred out of us, that this may be a bad situation if they escalate it. They instead, see it as a challenge.
Am i right? Am i wrong?
My personal belief is that i want to remain unseen while seeing everything. Is that realistic?

It depends. Fight / Flight / Freeze happens to everyone, even the bad guys. Are your actions going to psych out the suspect and they disengage? Or completely confuse them? Or clue them in that they'll have to fight you?
And then how commited are they to using violent means for their ends.

"Unseen while seeing" sounds like the "grey man" approach. Some people think it works, others think it's crap. Again, it really depends on you and your experiences and the effort you put into it.

And I hope you're joking about a snap kick to the throat...

HCM
02-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Dumb question for those more experienced but hear me out.

I would imagine that the best way to avoid conflict if you've been "targeted" is to do the "animal" thing. Square yourself to the target, eyes open, aggressive stance without looking like you're about to unleash a snap kick to the throat and an authoritative demeanor should voice have to be used.

The problem that i see with this is that i literally think human "predators" are too stupid to understand, due to instinct being bred out of us, that this may be a bad situation if they escalate it. They instead, see it as a challenge.

Am i right? Am i wrong?

My personal belief is that i want to remain unseen while seeing everything. Is that realistic?

Avoidance is good but if you have been "targeted", you have failed at remaining unseen. On to option B.

Re: "squaring up" - It is a challenge - the Posture option in Fight / Flight / Freeze/ Posture is a challenge / threat / warning that bad things will happen to your assailant. You have to be prepared to back it up though. It's not a bluff.

Magsz
02-14-2012, 05:51 PM
Of course im kidding about the snap kick.

TCinVA
02-14-2012, 09:17 PM
Of course im kidding about the snap kick.

Well, in fairness, nothing says "Go away son, you bother me." like a stiff kick to the larynx.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 11:38 AM
...despite the fact I was wearing a FAST pin (trying to yank Todd's chain earlier) which advertises "Hey, I practice a drill fairly similar to pulling a pistol from concealment and using it to shoot you in the face."...
Unless a p-f.com member was trying to score some dope money, that's a pretty esoteric signalling device. ;)

TCinVA
02-15-2012, 11:47 AM
Unless a p-f.com member was trying to score some dope money, that's a pretty esoteric signalling device. ;)

True. Throwing the challenge coin at him would have probably worked better...but alas, Todd refuses to spot me like 1/2 a second on the drill just because I'm awesome.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 12:19 PM
Due to piss-poor planning on my part, I had to stop for gas on the way home from the dentist's yesterday. I go to the clinic at the dental school downtown, and my route to and from takes me on surface streets through the 'hood (which starts only a few blocks south of my crib.)

Here's the Indianapolis Murder Map (http://www.indystar.com/interactive/article/99999999/NEWS02/80304038/Interactive-Marion-County-homicide-map). My drive starts just south of the word "Village" in "Broad Ripple Village" and ends in the middle of the first "n" in "Indianapolis". A Google street view of the Citgo in question can be found at "25th and College Avenue, Indianapolis". Except that picture is a few years old, so all but a very few of the grand old Victorian houses you can see there are boarded up now. :(

I'm not certain any of my fellow gas station patrons knew that the "INGO" patch on the front of my hat referred to "Indiana Gun Owners (http://ingunowners.com/forums/index.php)".

Ahhh... good ol' "War Zone D", as the IMPD refers to the neighborhood. :o

Mitchell, Esq.
02-15-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't see the whole intimidating/deterance thing going on with a lot of tards happening.

Either they are dumb enough that they can't interpret the signals correctly...

Or they will read it, and plan out an ambush.

They live in a world in which trips to the ER and GSWs, knifings and beatings are a fact of life. It's a mentatlity that doesn't seem to me anything that takes intimidation well.

I have a guy who kept missing some of his alcohol treatment classes. He finally got violated, and when asked why he didn't go to the classes, he said he kept getting the shit beaten out of him in that area and got shot at, so he didn't go back.

He's not a big guy, or a bad guy. He's got a problem with liquor, but nothing violent...
Yet for him, the beatings were frightening, and gettting shot at wasn't any fun...but that's life.

Hard target indicators just aren't a real factor to the tards.

Not being seen as having something they want.
Avoidance.
Awareness.
Upsetting the OODA loop.
Immediate and focused force which overwhelms them.

Those things are what I'd focus on instead of hard target indicators.

cutter
02-15-2012, 01:28 PM
Due to piss-poor planning on my part, I had to stop for gas on the way home from the dentist's yesterday. I go to the clinic at the dental school downtown, and my route to and from takes me on surface streets through the 'hood (which starts only a few blocks south of my crib.)

Here's the Indianapolis Murder Map (http://www.indystar.com/interactive/article/99999999/NEWS02/80304038/Interactive-Marion-County-homicide-map). My drive starts just south of the word "Village" in "Broad Ripple Village" and ends in the middle of the first "n" in "Indianapolis". A Google street view of the Citgo in question can be found at "25th and College Avenue, Indianapolis". Except that picture is a few years old, so all but a very few of the grand old Victorian houses you can see there are boarded up now. :(

I'm not certain any of my fellow gas station patrons knew that the "INGO" patch on the front of my hat referred to "Indiana Gun Owners (http://ingunowners.com/forums/index.php)".

Ahhh... good ol' "War Zone D", as the IMPD refers to the neighborhood. :o

Our Charlotte area members will be familiar with Farm Pond Lane and Albemarle Road with a Stop N Rob on 2 of the 4 corners that I drive through every work day.

Quite a few years ago I had to pick up my car after it was shipped back from W. Germany at a warehouse in Compton, CA. The fun thing was your car is put on the boat with less than a 1/8 tank of gas, so the first thing you have to do is fill it up at one of the two gas stations across the street. Which I am sure every car jacker in Compton knew that you had to do. Glad I was driving a beater Corolla instead of a nice shiny new BMW or Mercedes.

jslaker
02-15-2012, 01:35 PM
They live in a world in which trips to the ER and GSWs, knifings and beatings are a fact of life.

Buddy of mine is an ICU nurse at the hospital that gets all the trauma cases here.

"Every single GSW we get, the guy was just sitting on his front porch reading the Bible when somebody shot him for no reason."

Tamara
02-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Buddy of mine is an ICU nurse at the hospital that gets all the trauma cases here.

"Every single GSW we get, the guy was just sitting on his front porch reading the Bible when somebody shot him for no reason."
Any cop, EMT, or attorney that plays offense or defense can tell you that the single most dangerous thing you can do in the 'hood is just be standing around, minding your own business. ;)

MDS
02-15-2012, 01:51 PM
Hard target indicators just aren't a real factor to the tards.

Not being seen as having something they want.
Avoidance.
Awareness.
Upsetting the OODA loop.
Immediate and focused force which overwhelms them.

Those things are what I'd focus on instead of hard target indicators.

This is exactly my mindset right now. In fact, your list is almost in order of importance, if you move #1 to #3, like this:

Avoidance
Awareness
Not being seen as having something they want
Upsetting the OODA loop
Immediate and focused force which overwhelms them


It's not a bluff if you've got a decent hand to play. The trickiest part of the equation, to me, is keeping an eye out for any opportunity to GTFO, without tipping the fight/flight balancing act into flight-only mode.

This thread, and the Hood Life thread, really bring home how important it is to practice som and moving targets. These aren't things I can practice at any ranges around here, though. I figure I'll keep working on the static fundamental skills until I move away from SoFla (hopefully this year!) Availability of flexible shooting ranges is a major factor in deciding where to live...

JHC
02-15-2012, 02:29 PM
I would imagine that the best way to avoid conflict if you've been "targeted" is to do the "animal" thing. Square yourself to the target, eyes open, aggressive stance without looking like you're about to unleash a snap kick to the throat and an authoritative demeanor should voice have to be used.

Another animal thing (used more by predators perhaps) is circling. I'm conscious that if I square off and stand fast, there may be comrades of the BG in overwatch and I'm in the spot the advancing BG has formed his plan around; so unless I'm tied to a spot by circumstances (ie dependents in a vulnerable position) will consider moving off line in an arc. Circling. A thought [shrug]. Unless current spot has cover or "funnel" advantages.

I'm going to find and order that SN DVD. I've seen excerpts. Looks superb.

cutter
02-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Buddy of mine is an ICU nurse at the hospital that gets all the trauma cases here.

"Every single GSW we get, the guy was just sitting on his front porch reading the Bible when somebody shot him for no reason."

I learned the corollary to that when I was a Paramedic. Any accident victim I had in the back of the truck that was conscious said something along these lines, "That was the stupidest thing I have ever done" Outside of using a floor buffer and gasoline to clean grease stains off of the garage floor, I did most of the things that got them hurt. Also for every biker who asked how his bike was, there was another who tried to sell us his bike on the way into the hospital.

EMC
02-15-2012, 03:01 PM
Reading all the comments about how people have to conduct daily business in sketchy areas makes me grateful for my extremely boring daily commute between "boring suburbia" and "boring corporate center".

Mitchell, Esq.
02-15-2012, 03:35 PM
Any cop, EMT, or attorney that plays offense or defense can tell you that the single most dangerous thing you can do in the 'hood is just be standing around, minding your own business. ;)

If you are on a numbered cross street intercecting a main street with the word "Green", "Terrace", or "Blvd" on it at any time after dark...

Yo are in the danger zone.

JodyH
02-15-2012, 03:50 PM
If you are on a numbered cross street intercecting a main street with the word "Green", "Terrace", or "Blvd" on it at any time after dark...

Yo are in the danger zone.

Intersection of MLK Jr. Blvd and any numbered street (or street named after a tree).
Or in the southwest, Ceasar Chavez Blvd. and any street name with an accent mark.

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jthhapkido
02-15-2012, 03:54 PM
Any cop, EMT, or attorney that plays offense or defense can tell you that the single most dangerous thing you can do in the 'hood is just be standing around, minding your own business. ;)

Okay, cops and medical folks, how often have you heard this:

"I was mindin' my own bidness, when dese two dudes..."

Two dudes.

...it is almost always two guys. 'Cause, you know, they are too tough to get beaten up by only one guy.

NETim
02-15-2012, 04:01 PM
Reading all the comments about how people have to conduct daily business in sketchy areas makes me grateful for my extremely boring daily commute between "boring suburbia" and "boring corporate center".

I am thankful for my quiet and exceptionally boring lifestyle here in rural Nebraska. Not much happens in a village of 250 people surrounded by thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of corn, beans and cows.

A car did drive by today though. :)

Highly unlikely I'll ever need the skills I'm developing but it's fun to learn the craft.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Reading all the comments about how people have to conduct daily business in sketchy areas makes me grateful for my extremely boring daily commute between "boring suburbia" and "boring corporate center".

As I ponder my dining decision tomorrow night ("Do I walk to the Syrian gyro joint, the Korean taco truck, the Cajun restaurant, the local brewpub, or just stroll to the Fresh Market and get dinner ingredients there?") I'll think about this.

Inner-city residents worry about being eaten by coyotes and black bears and gang-raped by extras from Deliverance when they have to venture to the suburbs, too... :p

Tamara
02-15-2012, 07:02 PM
Two dudes.

Two dudes? Everybody knows that 99% of the crime in the world is perpetrated by that nefarious criminal mastermind, Sumdood (http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2007/05/30/sumdood-evil-criminal-mastermind/)!

SouthNarc
02-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Two dudes? Everybody knows that 99% of the crime in the world is perpetrated by that nefarious criminal mastermind, Sumdood (http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2007/05/30/sumdood-evil-criminal-mastermind/)!

Who is probably a cohort of the infamous Mississippi crack dealer that has never been identified on video FNU LNU.

Pronounced "Fanoo-Lanoo" (first name unknown, last name unknown).

LOKNLOD
02-15-2012, 08:02 PM
Inner-city residents worry about being eaten by coyotes and black bears and gang-raped by extras from Deliverance when they have to venture to the suburbs, too... :p

Good, the propaganda is working then.



Although... "Deliverance" would make an awesome name for a planned neighborhood. The hidden fake-rock speakers with banjo music piped in at the entrance would be killer.

Corey
02-15-2012, 08:19 PM
Intersection of MLK Jr. Blvd and any numbered street (or street named after a tree).
Or in the southwest, Ceasar Chavez Blvd. and any street name with an accent mark.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

If you are in a neighborhood where the streets are named after the presidents of the U.S., you're in the wrong neighborhood.

Back on topic, I am not able to intimidate anybody so I am not even going to try. I will stick with avoiding the three stupids, and keeping my head on a swivel.

My one experience around 2001 indicates a least some dirtbags are clueless. Had an encounter with dirtbag who turned out to had recently been released on parole. It was in the parking lot of the condo complex where I lived at the time. It got serious enough that I had my hand gripping my pistol in the holster ready to draw while we were facing each other across a parked car. After the situation ended and I was making my report to the police I showed them where I was standing and where the other guy was standing and my position with my hand on my gun. The police questioned the other guy separately and and he never clued in to my stance or the presence of my weapon. One of the cops even made a joke about how clueless the guy was.

The lesson I learned was not to put much faith in looking like a hard target as being a deterrent.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 08:36 PM
Good, the propaganda is working then.

Keep telling yourself that. ;)

It works both ways: A fish out of water will drown, but stick your head into an aquarium and see what happens. :p

jetfire
02-15-2012, 09:02 PM
Keep telling yourself that. ;)

It works both ways: A fish out of water will drown, but stick your head into an aquarium and see what happens. :p

I did that in college and swallowed a beta.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 09:05 PM
I did that in college and swallowed a beta.

Mello Yello Zero in the sinuses hurts. I'm just sayin'... :D

Super J
02-16-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm not trying to be funny...but what is a FAST pin?

Thanks

JodyH
02-16-2012, 05:00 PM
I'm not trying to be funny...but what is a FAST pin?

Thanks

Oh no you di'int!

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jetfire
02-16-2012, 05:09 PM
I'm not trying to be funny...but what is a FAST pin?

Thanks

It is a visual indicator that you have reached a tier of shooting awesomeness that only 60ish other people have reached. It is a shiny badge of honor, dignity, and a deep and abiding love of Chili's chips and salsa. It's made from the material that they blew up Home Tree in Avatar to get at.

Al T.
02-16-2012, 05:14 PM
Had to LOL yesterday.

Walking into Sam's, big fellow comes walking out looking all tactical. Palmetto State Armory hat (billboard), tactical clothes and boots. I'm trying not to smirk, and he's kind of glaring at me.

I was thinking to myself..... If I needed a gun right effing now, bet you if I walked up behind him and smacked him hard in the gourd, I'd score. Way to go Captain Oblivious. :rolleyes:

FAST pin? LMGTFY :p

http://pistol-training.com/fastest

Mitchell, Esq.
02-16-2012, 05:37 PM
Two dudes? Everybody knows that 99% of the crime in the world is perpetrated by that nefarious criminal mastermind, Sumdood (http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2007/05/30/sumdood-evil-criminal-mastermind/)!

What about "Diz Guy"?

In my hood, it's usually him.

Failure2Stop
02-17-2012, 12:13 AM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/Hownaturesaysdonottouch.png

Tamara
02-17-2012, 07:53 AM
Classic cartoon.

I've found that if I don't inflate the rubber seahorse, it's easier to get through doorways, yet the deterrent effect is in no way degraded. :o

NETim
02-17-2012, 08:55 AM
Sometimes though, the warning indicators are far more subtle:

http://frontiernet.net/~netim/kyle.jpg

MDS
02-17-2012, 09:34 AM
I've found that if I don't inflate the rubber seahorse, it's easier to get through doorways, yet the deterrent effect is in no way degraded. :o

Protip: get a big empty cardboard box, label it "seahorse holsters" and resign yourself to try every one ever made. ;)

Long tom coffin
02-23-2012, 01:00 AM
Intersection of MLK Jr. Blvd and any numbered street (or street named after a tree).
Or in the southwest, Ceasar Chavez Blvd. and any street name with an accent mark.

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TELL IT. STL recently got voted as having the worst MLK blvd in the nation. Calling it a ghetto doesn't even do it justice. Reminds me of a few quotes from Chris Rock:

"Martin Luther King Jr was a man of non-violence, but on every street named after him, there's LOTS OF VIOLENCE!"

"If your friend calls you up and tells you he's lost on MLK blvd and asks you what to do, tell him to RUN!"


StL's MLK runs up against the north side, the city's 6th precinct, which is responsible for the vast majority of St. Louis' homicide rate. By far the most dangerous area of the city, with McRee town a close second.

One important thing to consider is that we also can't allow ourselves to be fooled into thinking that all the scary evil people are confined to area "X". Thugs, like any predator, will roam in search of prey. We had a self defense shooting about a year and half ago where one of those guys from north city traveled 20 miles by BUS into what was previously considered a safe area of the deep county, so he could rob a man taking an evening walk around his block at 9 pm. Unfortunately for the thug, and fortunately everyone else in the city, the guy he was going to rob was armed, exercising good situational awareness, and shot him dead on the spot.

vcdgrips
02-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Late to the party, but my fellow litigator put out a pure platinum phrase right there:


I think the "Hard target" indicators are only a general help, because most hoodies aren't all that smart and don't take indicators well.

I'd rather be thought of as "grey" than "hard"."

JHC
02-23-2012, 10:58 AM
Is there a list or a doctrine of "gray" defined? I assumed it was not dressing with a photo-journalist vest and 5.11 khaki's but beyond all that; what is gray?

Crappy car? Crappy clothes but not so crappy as to appear like a homeless?

Shellback
02-23-2012, 11:35 AM
JHC - From my understanding it's simply blending in with the crowd. Don't strive to be noticed and camouflage yourself so you blend in with the rest of the herd. If you're at a Grateful Dead concert you don't want to be wearing your cowboy hat and boots.

As for me I wear my pants sagging around my ass, a white t-shirt down to my knees and a flat billed baseball hat with some fresh kicks and a wicked limp.

JHC
02-23-2012, 11:51 AM
JHC - From my understanding it's simply blending in with the crowd. Don't strive to be noticed and camouflage yourself so you blend in with the rest of the herd. If you're at a Grateful Dead concert you don't want to be wearing your cowboy hat and boots.

As for me I wear my pants sagging around my ass, a white t-shirt down to my knees and a flat billed baseball hat with some fresh kicks and a wicked limp.

Nice! I don't think I shall concern myself with gray unless traveling overseas. I am what I am. I roll the bill of my baseball caps extremely and will NOT change that. I won't fit in the bad parts of town no matter what I try to affect. I'm not that flamboyant anyway.

Zhurdan
02-23-2012, 11:52 AM
JHC - From my understanding it's simply blending in with the crowd. Don't strive to be noticed and camouflage yourself so you blend in with the rest of the herd. If you're at a Grateful Dead concert you don't want to be wearing your cowboy hat and boots.

As for me I wear my pants sagging around my ass, a white t-shirt down to my knees and a flat billed baseball hat with some fresh kicks and a wicked limp.


Does that include when some people wear fancy watches? hehe I keeed, I keeed.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-23-2012, 11:58 AM
Grey means acting appropriately to the situation.

Dress. Speech. Language terms. What you talk about. How are the people around you holding themselves as they go about their lives? How are they acting, reacting to what goes on...

Don't break the pattern. Don't look uncomfortable in the situation. If everyone is relaxing, chilling and 'coolin out' and your body language looks like...well...a wolf in sheeps clothing, it doesn't matter what you are wearing, people will react to it.

They may not know why, but they will react to it.

It may provoke something, it may get you targeted, or it may just get you a ticket to a lonely spot in a bar filled with hotties and the tag "Creepy Guy" because they don't know what else to describe you as because you are "Other".

Other is to be feared/avoided/confronted/excluded...

Being grey means people don't react to you that way.

It's not a "Do not see me!" or "Fear me!"

It's "Don't mind me..." or "You may not know who I am, but I obviously belong here too."

Shellback
02-23-2012, 12:00 PM
I won't fit in the bad parts of town no matter what I try to affect. I'm not that flamboyant anyway.
Me neither. I strive for the suburban soccer dad look now, with an REI flair, although I can never seem to adopt the glazed over look and puppy dog "Yes dear" demeanor while toodling in my mini-van, which would be the grey man. I think a lot of being a "hard target" is your posture, demeanor and how you present yourself.

Does that include when some people wear fancy watches? hehe I keeed, I keeed.
Zing! And I'm guilty as well... :cool:

ETA - Mitchell described what I was thinking a lot better than what I did myself.

JHC
02-23-2012, 12:37 PM
Thanks, those details help a lot. I don't suppose those who prey on people for a living will miss anyone in their feeding area. So looking "hard" could be a better bet than looking "meh" blends in with the rest. Now that's if you can pull off looking fit, alert, like one who can "handle" himself and in so many parts of the country, is probably packing. I have seen sketchy people in ATL avoid eye contact and move away from folks who look like that. Part of that reasoning is it seems more likely to be a victim of poor target selection (just one of the herd) than a victim of someone who fancies themself so BA that they'll pick the guy they think is probably carrying and who appears pretty hard to sneak up on.
But this is in the context of moving through indian country.



But OTOH one is visiting a town, goes out with co-workers or customers to their favorite place that happens to be country/western, you can sense there are some rowdy types, yeah, blend the hell in and keep low profile. No loud whooping it up with the waitress etc etc. Having too much fun is bad juujuu. I've made that mistake.

Mitchell, Esq.
02-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Thanks, those details help a lot. I don't suppose those who prey on people for a living will miss anyone in their feeding area. So looking "hard" could be a better bet than looking "meh" blends in with the rest.

You give most fuck sticks too much credit. They aren't that smart.

Some may be, they are involved in real money making stuff like counterfeiting, running drugs, being investment bankers or human smuggling or working for the UN, the Federal Government or organized crime/cartels.

The people doing violent crimes aren't all that inteligent, are likely under the influence of something, have a low EQ and impulse control. These aren't people who are going to go through a detailed intel assessment of a target before engaging in a coordinated hit.

That's not to say you shouldn't develop the skills for the high level opponent, because training for the LCD is just stupid, unrewarding and not much fun - and most of these people have very real experience in what it's like to hurt someone, so I don't consider stret people or "thugs" as LCD opponents at all...but oversetimating your opposition means you are going to make incorrect choices which will negatively impact your ability to evaluate the situation.

You may be able to make them realize you aren't a good target...or make them apply some cunning to work you correctly because you are likely to have something you want.

Better to be one of the many that just go by...and if they do make an error, have the advantage of suprise.

Madnik
03-04-2012, 05:28 PM
Better to blend in as described, however, once you recognize that you're being selected for a potential role in someone else's criminal event, it doesn't hurt to begin giving off cues designed to encourage deselection. Some will pick up on them; some will care and move on. No, you don't rely on that; but you leverage it to your benefit.

JHC
03-04-2012, 05:52 PM
You may be able to make them realize you aren't a good target...or make them apply some cunning to work you correctly because you are likely to have something you want.

Better to be one of the many that just go by...and if they do make an error, have the advantage of suprise.

You are correct. It works. And besides, we all have something they want. And unless we dress like a bum, that's obvious.