Increasing red dot handgun speed at close range

[GJM]

Similar to a red dot on a long gun, a slide mounted red dot on a service pistol offers a number of potential shooting advantages — an easily adjustable zero, low light capability, the ability to stay target focused, a usable aiming reference for mature eyes, and the ability to get full sighting information from a single dot as opposed to aligning and interpreting iron sights. There are two areas that many shooters transitioning to a red dot struggle with, slower speed on close targets and reliably/quickly finding the dot on the presentation. Here are some things to consider, that may help you improve in each of these area.

1) speed on close targets. With iron sights, depending upon target size and distance, we may use anything from just pointing the pistol, to indexing the slide, to a gross front sight, to a sharp front sight, and so on all the way through the continuum to a perfectly sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars. Yet, when shooting close and gross targets with the red dot, the same shooter that might use far less than a sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars to make the shot, insists on stopping the red dot and placing it on a precise spot on the target. If you understand that the red dot streaking anywhere within the target zone will result in an acceptable hit (assuming you press the trigger properly) you will get red dot speed on close targets equivalent or faster than with iron sights.

2) reliably acquiring the dot on presentation. With optimal iron sight presentations, your index will bring the iron sights onto the target, in alignment, and you will use vision just to confirm sight alignment, rather than look for sight alignment. Once you are on board with this philosophy, meaning your index gets the sights there, you can focus on what path your muzzle takes to the target. To steal something from TPC, when in doubt, act like a human. Try pointing at a spot on the wall with your finger and you will quickly see the natural path your body uses to point. Hint — this natural path does not look like a classic press out.

So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot. That is slower because it traces a circuitous route, and less reliable because you are not using your natural index you have spent your whole life developing each time you point at something. A good way to visualize an efficient draw path is to start with the pistol aligned in target and reverse the pistol all the way back into the holster. Using a direct presentation path, that aligns the pistol using index, with vision just used to confirm index, I have been able to frequently do a one shot red dot pistol draws to a seven yard target down into the .50’s from a Production rig type holster.

Hopefully these comments will give those struggling with red dot presentation speed and close shooting speed some things to consider.

[DAVE_M]

How close is "close?"

I'm continually learning with a slide mounted optic. Personally, inside of 5 yards, finding the dot seems to be a wasted effort if speed is necessary. Inside of 5 yards, I'm always concentrating on the target and using the optic window as a reference, unless I'm trying to make precision hits. If there is a better method, I'm open to trying other things.

[GJM]

How close is "close?"

I'm continually learning with a slide mounted optic. Personally, inside of 5 yards, finding the dot seems to be a wasted effort if speed is necessary. Inside of 5 yards, I'm always concentrating on the target and using the optic window as a reference, unless I'm trying to make precision hits. If there is a better method, I'm open to trying other things.

I use my dot, even if it just a streak, on close targets.

[DAVE_M]

I use my dot, even if it just a streak, on close targets.

Then we do the same. The dot is there, ensuring you have a proper presentation. It may not be a precision shot, but it's there... somewhere lol

[GJM]

Look at these two examples of placing a shot on a 3x5 with a dot.

26121

The left example is one way to do it, and in contrast, consider that in on the right example, any of those placements of the dot, including my attempts at drawing a streak, will get you a 3x5 hit. The right example is obviously much faster.

[guymontag]

Would love to hear more thoughts regarding the speed of the dot in general if you have the time. Any tips on staying target focused?

I think it was a Rob L video where he said that the dot doesn’t need to settle completely, just settle appropriately for the target. Or maybe that was Patrick Kelley on aiming in general.

Any other barriers you can think of for us learning the dot?

[GJM]

Would love to hear more thoughts regarding the speed of the dot in general if you have the time. Any tips on staying target focused?

I think it was a Rob L video where he said that the dot doesn’t need to settle completely, just settle appropriately for the target. Or maybe that was Patrick Kelley on aiming in general.

Any other barriers you can think of for us learning the dot?

No, the dot does not need to settle, see the example of the right 3x5 depiction above.

The first barrier to learning to shoot the red dot fast up close is psychological — believing that it will be slower. Throw that away, and set your goal to shoot the dot as fast or faster up close. The second barrier is believing you need the dot to stay still in one spot — accept that you only need the dot to stay within your acceptable target area as you press the trigger.

I was down the range earlier, thinking about this thread as I did some various things. Mostly I was thinking about how hot it was, as it was 106F, and my first goal was testing my Arcteryx Phasic shirt, which did a surprisingly good job of keeping me comfortable. Later, I did some two shot draws to a 7 yard target with my P09/Venom, and was getting .85-.95 for the two shots. I am still fighting the tipped up muzzle which is costing me time.


https://youtu.be/csXkrN82dyM

Then I worked pure speed with my iron sight P09, doing one shot draws and I was .58, .54, .51, and .51. Still some muzzle up, which I am working to eliminate, with the hope I can get my one shot draws into the high .40’s with a more direct presentation path.


https://youtu.be/qaF8fDjiZW4

[Jamie]

Great opening post GJM.
I'm tagging on as I am just now, after nearly 40 years of shooting, transitioning to RDS. At 64 years of age, my eyes require it of me.
I borrowed a friend's RMR 06 G 19 about 3 weeks ago and work dry fire presentations approximately 20 minutes a day. I've only live fired this RMR'd Glock 3 times, around 500 rounds.
I am quite surprised at my "acceptance" (mentally) of the dot movement and found that portion of my learning curve is not a significant issue.
I find I pick up the dot, on extension, roughly 22 out of 25 presentations (AIWB Archangel). I am looking for the dot, and may even "turtle neck" a bit as I am presenting the gun... I need to work on that.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate a bit on this statement Sir? "So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot."
I do understand the concept of "natural pointing" but feel I'm missing something here. Are you saying to simply accept your natural point or index and that this will bring the dot where it needs to be vs trying to "look the dot" into it's desired location? Probably a dumb question...

My thanks to you and all here for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

fwiw my RMR is on order and I'll be having my 17 milled for it. Learning a new skill set makes a old man happy!

[GJM]

Yes, I am saying to rely on your index to present the pistol, and then your vision to confirm dot alignment with the target as opposed to using your vision to first find and then align the dot.

[SC_Dave]

Similar to a red dot on a long gun, a slide mounted red dot on a service pistol offers a number of potential shooting advantages — an easily adjustable zero, low light capability, the ability to stay target focused, a usable aiming reference for mature eyes, and the ability to get full sighting information from a single dot as opposed to aligning and interpreting iron sights. There are two areas that many shooters transitioning to a red dot struggle with, slower speed on close targets and reliably/quickly finding the dot on the presentation. Here are some things to consider, that may help you improve in each of these area.

1) speed on close targets. With iron sights, depending upon target size and distance, we may use anything from just pointing the pistol, to indexing the slide, to a gross front sight, to a sharp front sight, and so on all the way through the continuum to a perfectly sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars. Yet, when shooting close and gross targets with the red dot, the same shooter that might use far less than a sharp front and rear sight with equal light and bars to make the shot, insists on stopping the red dot and placing it on a precise spot on the target. If you understand that the red dot streaking anywhere within the target zone will result in an acceptable hit (assuming you press the trigger properly) you will get red dot speed on close targets equivalent or faster than with iron sights.

2) reliably acquiring the dot on presentation. With optimal iron sight presentations, your index will bring the iron sights onto the target, in alignment, and you will use vision just to confirm sight alignment, rather than look for sight alignment. Once you are on board with this philosophy, meaning your index gets the sights there, you can focus on what path your muzzle takes to the target. To steal something from TPC, when in doubt, act like a human. Try pointing at a spot on the wall with your finger and you will quickly see the natural path your body uses to point. Hint — this natural path does not look like a classic press out.

So, if you are presenting a red dot pistol with a classic press out, you are using your vision rather than your index to align your red dot. That is slower because it traces a circuitous route, and less reliable because you are not using your natural index you have spent your whole life developing each time you point at something. A good way to visualize an efficient draw path is to start with the pistol aligned in target and reverse the pistol all the way back into the holster. Using a direct presentation path, that aligns the pistol using index, with vision just used to confirm index, I have been able to frequently do a one shot red dot pistol draws to a seven yard target down into the .50’s from a Production rig type holster.

Hopefully these comments will give those struggling with red dot presentation speed and close shooting speed some things to consider.

This^ All of this^. I have been shooting a dot exclusively for about a year, I have between 9-10K rounds on it now. Not that what GJM said needs validation especially by me I will say that the key points IMO are staying target focused, understanding dots are not slow up close, relying on a proper presentation of good index and accepting the wobble.
SCD

[DAVE_M]

No, the dot does not need to settle, see the example of the right 3x5 depiction above.

The first barrier to learning to shoot the red dot fast up close is psychological — believing that it will be slower. Throw that away, and set your goal to shoot the dot as fast or faster up close. The second barrier is believing you need the dot to stay still in one spot — accept that you only need the dot to stay within your acceptable target area as you press the trigger.

This is good advice! It's something I will definitely be working on in the future. I'm about 2,000 rounds into it with the dot so far.

[GJM]

First, I discuss the philosophy of a direct presentation vs a press out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqM-Zi3ZFU

Here I am, doing my best to demo a direct presentation, drawing to an eight inch steel at 15 yards, with my P09/Vortex Venom, no BUIS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgQlpxuei4

[KneeShot]

George,
In reference to the DA draws video on page 1; it does not appear that you are following through on the next sight picture after the shot breaks...:: or prepping the trigger during the "reactive shooting" cycle :)
Why?

It seems that we should at least also acquire the 2nd sight picture even if we do not prep the trigger...

It seems a little rushed checking the timer w/ no follow though at all.

This is just another life long student focusing on learning from each other!

Jeremy

[SC_Dave]

First, I discuss the philosophy of a direct presentation vs a press out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqM-Zi3ZFU

Here I am, doing my best to demo a direct presentation, drawing to an eight inch steel at 15 yards, with my P09/Vortex Venom, no BUIS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgQlpxuei4

Such good info!

[GJM]

George,
In reference to the DA draws video on page 1; it does not appear that you are following through on the next sight picture after the shot breaks...:: or prepping the trigger during the "reactive shooting" cycle :)
Why?

It seems that we should at least also acquire the 2nd sight picture even if we do not prep the trigger...

It seems a little rushed checking the timer w/ no follow though at all.

This is just another life long student focusing on learning from each other!

Jeremy

I certainly agree that I was timer focused on the draws! The follow through is kind of interesting, because while it doesn’t look like I was following through, on the last draw when I had a surprise empty chamber, the gun didn’t move from steady on target, and was a great example of TPC’s “let recoil happen.” On the video I posted on this page, I made a more conscious effort to do a classic follow through.

Was discussing follow through with a TPC instructor yesterday. I think I am calling the shot before and during the press, as opposed to in the traditional way of as the sight lifts.

This pistol shooting thing is an ongoing learning process!

[Dismas316]

And this is why PF is so much better than all the other forums. Great Stuff GJM. A couple of things/questions. Regarding your draw and presentation, I find it much more natural to do a “press out” when drawing from aiwb. From owb holster, it seems more natural to do what you illustrate in the video. Something I’ll work on.

Secondly, for me beyond 5 yards isn’t a problem at all acquiring the dot with accuracy, for me the struggle is at 5 yards in, great example is doing a dot torture at 3/4 yards. My dot has to be at the very top of the circle, if the dot is placed inside on the middle of the circle, it always goes low. My dot is zeroed in at 10 yards, at 25 it makes the issue even more prevalent.

[GJM]

And this is why PF is so much better than all the other forums. Great Stuff GJM. A couple of things/questions. Regarding your draw and presentation, I find it much more natural to do a “press out” when drawing from aiwb. From owb holster, it seems more natural to do what you illustrate in the video. Something I’ll work on.

Secondly, for me beyond 5 yards isn’t a problem at all acquiring the dot with accuracy, for me the struggle is at 5 yards in, great example is doing a dot torture at 3/4 yards. My dot has to be at the very top of the circle, if the dot is placed inside on the middle of the circle, it always goes low. My dot is zeroed in at 10 yards, at 25 it makes the issue even more prevalent.

At close distance, there is mechanical offset between dot and the barrel, just like an AR but less amount of offset. At seven yards, for example, on two,inch dots I hold at the top of the dot. On a one inch dot, I hold just above the dot. My red dot pistols are zeroed at 25 yards.

[guymontag]

GJM, what is TPC?

And have you addressed the tipped up muzzle with changing out the back strap? You’re referring to how you’re indexing right? I ask because I have an SP01 and installed the medium blackstrap on my P09 as it appears to have the same grip shape.

[GJM]

GJM, what is TPC?

And have you addressed the tipped up muzzle with changing out the back strap? You’re referring to how you’re indexing right? I ask because I have an SP01 and installed the medium blackstrap on my P09 as it appears to have the same grip shape.

TPC is Tactical Performance Center in southern Utah. Tipped up muzzle is old press out muscle memory.

[guymontag]

Thanks! I’ll look into it - especially since Ron Avery is involved, and I like the more “natural” aspect to shooting.

[GJM]

Thanks! I’ll look into it - especially since Ron Avery is involved, and I like the more “natural” aspect to shooting.

I give TPC’s Handgun Mastery class the highest possible recommendation. I have taken it twice, and look forward to repeating it again. It gets into the nuance of stance and grip in a way no other class I have taken does.

[Darth_Uno]

Once you get to where you can find the dot quickly, the trick is to learn to "trust the dot". Ignoring less than perfect irons alignment is a hard habit to break. And it's not a bad habit, you just have to switch gears between the two. It's like playing piano and playing guitar. There's some similarities, you get music both ways, but it's two different systems.

[Norville]

I dabbled in the RDS concept for a couple of years and shot Carry Optics in USPSA last season. My personal feeling is after you learn to love the dot, irons are slower in most cases. The “paintbrush “ approach where the dot never stops moving really speeds up splits and transitions. I ended up high in B class where I am a low B in Production. Some of it is learning to play the game better, but a lot I attribute to the dot.

Trust your index and the dot appears on the target as long as your grip is consistent.

[guymontag]

Regarding the speed/accuracy of the dot - what MOA are you dedicated dot shooters using?

I started with 8MOA as it made the most sense for action pistol shooting, but there are so many running 3MOA - anyone compare the two? Is it easier to lose a 3MOA in recoil? Is it easier to “paint” a target with one or the other? Does one transition target to target better?

[David S.]

Regarding the speed/accuracy of the dot - what MOA are you dedicated dot shooters using?

I started with 8MOA as it made the most sense for action pistol shooting, but there are so many running 3MOA - anyone compare the two? Is it easier to lose a 3MOA in recoil? Is it easier to “paint” a target with one or the other? Does one transition target to target better?

It's been a bit since I watched this video. IIRC, Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics) said he prefers the 6.5 MOA dot on his RMRs. For him, easier dot tracking (large dot) is more important than precision at longer ranges (small dot).


https://youtu.be/FBE8h1vDitI

I'm taking a 2 day RDS class with Modern Samurai Project this weekend. I'll be sure to leave a detailed AAR.

[Bill Lance]

As a rather new RMR shooter, this is an awesome thread.

With a 10 yard zero, [my current], what is the approximate hold at 25? As on a B-8.

Thank you in advance.

Bill

[strow]

GJM,

Any other suggestions for refining pistol index from the draw? Besides quality repetitions with a consistent grip? Obviously dedicated dry practice.

[DAVE_M]

As a rather new RMR shooter, this is an awesome thread.

With a 10 yard zero, [my current], what is the approximate hold at 25? As on a B-8.

Thank you in advance.

Bill

Using a 10 yard zero at 25 yards should be about 2 1/2" high.

[Bill Lance]

Thank you.

[Darth_Uno]

Regarding the speed/accuracy of the dot - what MOA are you dedicated dot shooters using?

I started with 8MOA as it made the most sense for action pistol shooting, but there are so many running 3MOA - anyone compare the two? Is it easier to lose a 3MOA in recoil? Is it easier to “paint” a target with one or the other? Does one transition target to target better?


It's been a bit since I watched this video. IIRC, Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics) said he prefers the 6.5 MOA dot on his RMRs. For him, easier dot tracking (large dot) is more important than precision at longer ranges (small dot).


I really can't tell much of a speed difference up close (under 15 yards or so). You can tell the accuracy difference past that so I prefer 3 MOA. I'm not selling my 6.5, it's still fine. The 9 MOA dual illumination models glow like a reactor rod in daylight, but that's a big dot when you're aiming at 6" plates at 25 yds.

[GJM]

GJM,

Any other suggestions for refining pistol index from the draw? Besides quality repetitions with a consistent grip? Obviously dedicated dry practice.

Yes, believe that the dot will be there with a proper index, and if you ever do not get the dot (and the dot is still working:)) figure out what you did wrong mechanically that caused the issue.

[Jamie]

Yes, believe that the dot will be there with a proper index, and if you ever do not get the dot (and the dot is still working:)) figure out what you did wrong mechanically that caused the issue.

I am printing this off and posting it to the door of the room I use for dry fire practice! Thank you. :)