MP5 Length Options

[einherjarvalk]

Technically a "pistol," but whatever.

I've been looking at adding a Zenith MP5 to my stable and continuing to follow my horrifically expensive dream of "own the guns I really, really liked from Rainbow Six as a kid." However, I've run into a bit of a snag, as I'm having trouble deciding between the full size and K-length models. I've already got a Scorpion Evo SBR that should be coming back any day now that fills the 7-8" barrel length PCC niche, so I've started leaning towards the MP5K, but I'm also realizing it may be a much more problematic and less reliable option than I'm willing to put up with. For the record, this is a range toy and occasional road trip backpack gun that I intend to shoot 147 gr ammo with the majority of the time, occasionally suppressed.

Right now my pro/con list looks like this:
MP5A3:
+dead bang reliable with standard locking piece and 147 grain ammo/suppressor
+large enough to easily mount lights to M-LOK handguard if added
+not picky on bullet weights
+matches my Die Hard sweater (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073T6HPK7/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
-more expensive on average
-size niche already filled by Evo SBR
-not nearly as easy to stash in discreet-ish bags that I have

MP5K PDW:
+extremely small, will theoretically fit in my super hipster Toms laptop bag or my unused work briefcase
+shorter barrel length reduces OAL with a mounted suppressor
+about $100-200 less than full-size MP5 (from what I've seen)
-apparently has a hard time with 147 gr ammo when shot with a "stock," suppressed with subsonic ammo, and especially with both, requiring a change to an 80 deg locking piece for reliability, then a change back to factory 110 deg locking piece for reliability with 115 gr
-very little room for light/laser/whatever accessory expansion in future
-does not match my Die Hard sweater (http://www.radcrew.net/media/2013/12/diehard.jpg)

Basically, from an on-paper practical standpoint, the K length looks to be the better option but incurs the high probability of needing troubleshooting for my usual subgun diets of 147 gr flat point ammo and will likely inconvenience me if I don't have subsonics on hand. On the other hand, the full size has reliability in spades and a certain cool factor, but really doesn't do anything my Evo doesn't already do aside from "be an MP5" (which, granted, is still a selling point).

Am I missing anything here that might make one variant or the other more worthy of my attention? I know I said this is a range toy first and foremost, but if a range toy gives me trouble when I ask it to do what I normally do with range toys, then it ceases to be fun and thus is no longer worth considering as a range toy.

[jeep45238]

I’d keep the full-size MP5 considering you have a SBR evo inbound.


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[Talionis]

I don't have any direct experience with the Zenith guns, but I do have a fair amount with the HK versions. In my experience, the K has been every bit as reliable as its full size brothers. Since my personal K is semi only, I have not yet felt the need to switch the locking piece over many thousands of rounds of various bullet weight, suppressed and unsuppressed. While it might be closer to the edge of its performance envelope with the stock 110 degree locking block, mine is still an exceedingly reliable and soft shooting gun.

The K requires more muscling of the gun for the same shooting performance out of the A3 and equivalents, but it is vastly more flexible in concealment options. It is small enough to fit in bags most people couldn't imagine would hold a shoulder fired weapon.

Personally, I would choose the K all day, especially given the prevalence of SBR/Pistol AR's that are a similar form factor to the full size MP5's.

[einherjarvalk]

Since my personal K is semi only, I have not yet felt the need to switch the locking piece over many thousands of rounds of various bullet weight, suppressed and unsuppressed. While it might be closer to the edge of its performance envelope with the stock 110 degree locking block, mine is still an exceedingly reliable and soft shooting gun.

The locking piece recommendations are the most confusing thing to me since most of the info I've seen about using the 80 degree locking piece have been in reference to registered trigger pack hosts, which adds to the confusion. Has HK ever said anything about whether or not a #28/80 degree locking piece should be used in the SP5K when used with subsonic ammunition or a stock/brace?

I know for the MP5K proper they recommend it for sure, but with that comes a host of other concerns such as possibly needing to swap the rollers in the bolt head to get the bolt gap back in spec, which is way, way more complicated than I'd like for something I will probably be shooting subs out of most of the time but would want to be able to feed 115 gr Wal-Mart special ammo in a pinch.

[Default.mp3]

You could always cut down the Evo's barrel to get the mini PCC form factor, and get the full size MP5 clone.

[einherjarvalk]

You could always cut down the Evo's barrel to get the mini PCC form factor, and get the full size MP5 clone.

I considered this as well, but since my Evo started as a carbine and was in the process to get cut down to 7.7" with an MLOK handguard installed when the MP5 bug hit me, I'm very hesitant to scrap all of that for a K conversion right away.

[psalms144.1]

I just recently had to turn in my K (uber sad face) - apparently they're going out of inventory for us. I had mine for over 6 years, can't tell you how many thousands of rounds I put through it with no issues - and it was 20+ years of hard "stable" (e.g. available for use for whoever needed it - and not maintain it) use.

As others have noted, more than once I was at a high profile public event with a laptop bag over my shoulder containing the K with stock folded and twin-mag inserted, with 4 loaded magazines as reloads. Sure, it was heavy as hell, but nice to know there's a whole lot of "work" available in that bag...

[GJM]

I have a Dakota full size MP5 and the SP5K. Full size is easier to shoot but the SP5K fits in a Vertx EDC pack, along with all the other stuff I normally carry. The SP5K has been absolutely reliable. Zack made GM shooting one, carbine-ized, and since we know it is the gun not the shooter, that shows how capable the little HK is. :)

[einherjarvalk]

I have a Dakota full size MP5 and the SP5K. Full size is easier to shoot but the SP5K fits in a Vertx EDC pack, along with all the other stuff I normally carry. The SP5K has been absolutely reliable. Zack made GM shooting one, carbine-ized, and since we know it is the gun not the shooter, that shows how capable the little HK is. :)

I'm assuming the SP5K he used still used the stock 110 degree locking piece like the Zenith/POF clones? If he's shooting well enough in competition to hit GM, I'm assuming he was doing it with 147gr or 150gr+ loads and unrelenting reliability from the SP5K, however the locking piece was set up.

[Lester Polfus]

My memories are 15 years old, I was never a HK armorer and I've had a TBI since then, but what I remember is that when it came to the 9mm guns, the locking piece didn't make that much difference unless you were running full auto and/or supressed.

[Hambo]

As others have said, the MP5 is easier to shoot, but the PDW is sexier. Both were reliable IME.

I never liked the telescoping stock, so if I had an MP5 it would have the non-telescoping stock.

In case you're ever tempted, the 0-1-3-Full trigger group makes a bad selector even worse.

Circa late 1990s, I watched a guy at an USPSA match run a .38 Super with an optic and I wondered why we were still using MP5s. Fast forward twenty years and if I wanted to conceal a 9mm with a lot of rounds, it would be a G34/RMR, not a PDW. You don't have a practical need for PDW even if there is a practical use for one. That's OK. 'Murica. Buy the MP5 and get your Diehard on.

[Talionis]

I'm assuming the SP5K he used still used the stock 110 degree locking piece like the Zenith/POF clones? If he's shooting well enough in competition to hit GM, I'm assuming he was doing it with 147gr or 150gr+ loads and unrelenting reliability from the SP5K, however the locking piece was set up.

The SP5K in question (mine) does still have the 110 degree locking piece. For most of my competition shooting it is with 125gr cast bullets at ~143 power factor out of the SP5K. However, my press is currently set up for 5.56 and I've been running factory 115gr (mostly blazer brass) the last few matches where I've shot the SP5K. The gun is incredibly ammo insensitive.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve carried full sized MP5s with SEF and Navy groups in fixed and retractable stocks. I carried an SD with a fixed stock that I loved other than it was a heavy beast. It was also finicky with ammo. It loved Wolf 115FMJ though.

I’ve also carried PDWs which were a blast to shoot. They had a high rate of fire making the standards drills more difficult. One handed full auto accurate fire was possible. The weight at the end of your arm dropped the PDW right back.

I’d love to have a PDW or a 14” 870 again to strap on for yard searches. But I’d also take a full sized MP5 with a retractable stock.

For the OP I’d go with the MP5A3.

[einherjarvalk]

I stopped by my range today and decided on a whim to rent out their Zenith Z-5P with brace to see how the K-length felt in the hand. Turns out there's just enough real estate left for me to grip it comfortably up front, and it balances extremely well with a suppressor. Between that experience and trading a few messages with Zenith's master armorer, I'm becoming more and more convinced I want to go with the K-length gun even if it means having a #28 locking piece swapped into the gun and keeping a 110 degree locking piece in my range bag in case 115s are all that are available.

Now the real problem is just finding one. Said range is the only place I've even seen a Z-5P in stock for at least 2-3 months now, and after tax the gun and brace package comes out to be just north of $2100. That's "consider an APC9" territory to me.

I'd already decided to wait on actually buying one until after I got my Scorpion Evo SBR back from Buhler Ballistics, but now it's looking like I don't have a choice unless the range retail staff decides that price is negotiable.

[DpdG]

MacPherson Arms in Brentwood NH had a Zenith Z5P in stock last week, listed for $1700 without a brace. They’re a fairly new shop and I have not done business with them, but they seemed friendly and knowledgeable. 603-706-5795

[einherjarvalk]

MacPherson Arms in Brentwood NH had a Zenith Z5P in stock last week, listed for $1700 without a brace. They’re a fairly new shop and I have not done business with them, but they seemed friendly and knowledgeable. 603-706-5795

Excellent, I actually found a gently used Z5P semi-locally to me (San Antonio) on Gunbroker so I'm going to try to go that route first. Failing that, I'll give 'em a ring.

I just picked up a pre-owned and unused SBT5KA as well, so if all goes to plan I should hopefully come out way under budget on this.

[einherjarvalk]

So, the Z-5P on Gunbroker was a bust as it ended up going for something like $1,800 (i.e., $150 more than Brownells charges for a used gun), and MacPherson ended up having a Z-5K instead of a Z-5P. I'm still MP5-less.

I nearly changed that today when I went back to the range and talked the sales guys down to $1,700 + tax for their display Z-5P, which I considered fair enough since I don't mind spending a bit extra to help keep the local range afloat. Unfortunately, as we were driving out the rear receiver pins to remove the brace they had on it, the weld holding the top receiver pin hole reinforcement in place broke, and the reinforcement fell off. Everyone in the room got a "well, shit" sorta moment - the sales guy wasn't making the sale anymore, the gunsmith would need to send the gun to Zenith for repair/replacement, and I was still going home without an MP5.

Apparently this is the second time this has happened with a Z-5P they've gotten since they became a dealer; is this a common issue with these guns or just a bad batch they may have gotten?

[Dan_S]

What about this as an option? http://www.ptr-us.com/products-9-x-19mm.php


I know that some of the rifles had issues, back a few years ago, but rumours I’ve heard indicated the chamber issue was fixed... Are these a worthwhile consideration, at the price?

[JBhunter45]

I've read on Facebook and forums that a new shipment is supposed to come in June. I'm waiting also.
Have a RS on back order through Brownells, and am on the list for a RS and P at Kelley Enterprises.
SB braces and mags already delivered.

[einherjarvalk]

I whiffed on a Z-5P today, AGAIN. Saw one for $1400 on Gunbroker, used, messaged the guy to get better photos of things that are important to me (read: welds), and someone else slapped "buy it now" within an hour of the listing going up, long before any pics could be sent.

I am incredibly frustrated at this point; it's like life really, really does not want me to have one of these.


What about this as an option? http://www.ptr-us.com/products-9-x-19mm.php

I know that some of the rifles had issues, back a few years ago, but rumours I’ve heard indicated the chamber issue was fixed... Are these a worthwhile consideration, at the price?

My PTR-91 is just fine, but at the price they're asking for the PTR-5, I can't really see myself getting one over an MKE. The MKE guns are all made on HK machinery under license with a better warranty, and don't stick me with a welded top rail (which is the one complaint I have about the PTR-91 I have; I can't mount a brass deflector as a result). Price is an issue for me too; considering the competition is made under license, the slight price difference doesn't make me really want to go with the PTR-5. If they dropped the top rail and offered a plastic handguard model, it would in theory make the whole package more affordable and create enough savings for me to consider it, but as it is, I'd rather pay a few bucks more for the Turkish gun.

Also, they don't offer a K-length gun at all.


I've read on Facebook and forums that a new shipment is supposed to come in June. I'm waiting also.
Have a RS on back order through Brownells, and am on the list for a RS and P at Kelley Enterprises.
SB braces and mags already delivered.

Mid-June is what their armorer was saying on HKPro and on an MP5 group on Facebook. Guess I'm still waiting.

[Dan_S]

From my understanding, MKE isn’t licensed, currently.

[JBhunter45]

Mid-June is what their armorer was saying on HKPro and on an MP5 group on Facebook. Guess I'm still waiting.

Those are the same ones I saw as well, just didn't want to dig up the links.
I hope its worth the wait as well, I have a older Cohire Arms rifle with pinned can to hold me over.
I want the classic versions, so no PTR for me either. Need to get my Die Hard / Lethal Weapon on!

[WobblyPossum]

I’m bumping this out of curiosity since I’m considering buying a Zenith MP5 clone sometime next year (need to complete my Die Hard collection). OP, were you ever able to get one? If so, what are your thoughts? Is the weld issue a common problem, bad batch of guns, etc?