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View Full Version : Good "Technique Focused" Pistol Instruction



JAD
02-10-2012, 09:47 AM
So this might be a thread split -- I'll leave that up to the staff -- but as I mentioned my classes were a) a long time ago and b) never very focused on shooting technique after 250. I shoot about as well as I should given my utter inattention to the topic over the past many years and my fundamental inability to master physical skills. I would like to shoot better and faster; I am completely disinterested in competition given my time budget; and I'm certainly not particularly married to any technique. I need to pick an instructor who can give me an effective technique for freestyle and SHO shooting; they will need to train over my existing technique, but frankly I doubt I'll fight it much. I will follow up that class with less than an hour a week of dry fire and less than two hours per month of useful range time, so if it's not going to be something that I can accomplish under those constraints I probably shouldn't even start. I would vastly prefer a three day class but will deal with a five day if I have to (though that could push it into 2013 pretty quickly). Location is irrelevant -- they make airplanes.

Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?

Tony Muhlenkamp
02-10-2012, 10:23 AM
So this might be a thread split -- I'll leave that up to the staff -- but as I mentioned my classes were a) a long time ago and b) never very focused on shooting technique after 250. I shoot about as well as I should given my utter inattention to the topic over the past many years and my fundamental inability to master physical skills. I would like to shoot better and faster; I am completely disinterested in competition given my time budget; and I'm certainly not particularly married to any technique. I need to pick an instructor who can give me an effective technique for freestyle and SHO shooting; they will need to train over my existing technique, but frankly I doubt I'll fight it much. I will follow up that class with less than an hour a week of dry fire and less than two hours per month of useful range time, so if it's not going to be something that I can accomplish under those constraints I probably shouldn't even start. I would vastly prefer a three day class but will deal with a five day if I have to (though that could push it into 2013 pretty quickly). Location is irrelevant -- they make airplanes.

Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?

IMHO, Randy Cain, Tactical Handgun 101. http://www.guntactics.com/Handgun.htm Google his name for class reviews posted on various sites at various times; and you can in fact believe most of what you read about him.

By way of background, I am a middle aged, ordinary person with bad back, knees and shoulders. Full time job, full time family, time constraints similar to yours. Not an operator, not a competitor, only been shooting for 5-6 years and nowhere near as good a shooter as most of the folks on this board. But I can get good hits in reasonable time and Randy taught me to do it. FWIW

mpd046
02-10-2012, 11:00 AM
So this might be a thread split -- I'll leave that up to the staff -- but as I mentioned my classes were a) a long time ago and b) never very focused on shooting technique after 250. I shoot about as well as I should given my utter inattention to the topic over the past many years and my fundamental inability to master physical skills. I would like to shoot better and faster; I am completely disinterested in competition given my time budget; and I'm certainly not particularly married to any technique. I need to pick an instructor who can give me an effective technique for freestyle and SHO shooting; they will need to train over my existing technique, but frankly I doubt I'll fight it much. I will follow up that class with less than an hour a week of dry fire and less than two hours per month of useful range time, so if it's not going to be something that I can accomplish under those constraints I probably shouldn't even start. I would vastly prefer a three day class but will deal with a five day if I have to (though that could push it into 2013 pretty quickly). Location is irrelevant -- they make airplanes.

Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?

I've got Pat Mcnamara coming to Maryville IL (just across the state from you) in May to teach a 2 day pistol class. Pat ended his time with Delta as that unit's Marksmanship Instructor. We have room if your interested. From what I've read he tailors the class to the individual.

http://store.greygrouptraining.com/2-DAY-T.A.P.S.-18202.html

Matt

JAD
02-10-2012, 11:03 AM
I've got Pat Mcnamara coming to Maryville IL (just across the state from you) in May to teach a 2 day pistol class. Pat ended his time with Delta as that unit's Marksmanship Instructor. We have room if your interested. From what I've read he tailors the class to the individual.

http://store.greygrouptraining.com/2-DAY-T.A.P.S.-18202.html

Matt

Thanks, Matt. I'll take that into consideration.

agent-smith
02-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?
There's some guy named "Todd" something-or-other that teaches something about "Aiming Fast" and "Hitting Fast", but I don't know how you'd get a hold of him.

I hear he goes to the NRA Range and wears really crappy watches; you could try going there and look for the guy wearing an old Timex or Armitron.

Wait, you could maybe try: http://pistol-training.com/classes

GJM
02-10-2012, 12:55 PM
So this might be a thread split -- I'll leave that up to the staff -- but as I mentioned my classes were a) a long time ago and b) never very focused on shooting technique after 250. I shoot about as well as I should given my utter inattention to the topic over the past many years and my fundamental inability to master physical skills. I would like to shoot better and faster; I am completely disinterested in competition given my time budget; and I'm certainly not particularly married to any technique. I need to pick an instructor who can give me an effective technique for freestyle and SHO shooting; they will need to train over my existing technique, but frankly I doubt I'll fight it much. I will follow up that class with less than an hour a week of dry fire and less than two hours per month of useful range time, so if it's not going to be something that I can accomplish under those constraints I probably shouldn't even start. I would vastly prefer a three day class but will deal with a five day if I have to (though that could push it into 2013 pretty quickly). Location is irrelevant -- they make airplanes.

Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?

Without question, as you define your objective, it is the Rogers Shooting School, because of the combination of their teaching methods, the time constraints and their target system.

TGS
02-10-2012, 01:49 PM
2) By contrast, when you show up at Rogers Shooting School, Bill explains the evolution of stances, and why the Modern Iso has become the most effective stance for achieving the highest score on the school test, with quantitative results going back decades. No pressure to change, unless YOU want to. Of course, getting your score on the test read out loud each day, and the shooting order rearranged daily by cumulative scores, provides a strong incentive to use the techniques conducive to best performance. I believe if someone showed up shooting a whole new method, that Bill could test on his range and verify, RSS would be teaching it as the default within a month. To reinforce that, I ended up disagreeing with RSS doctrine on a reloading technique in the shotgun module, and Bill's reaction was to test against me, man on man. When my method showed some promise, I was amazed when I arrived the next morning for pistol, Bill told me to grab my shotgun and head down to his target area near his workshop, to test it further. This seems the ideal of using data to drive teaching method.

Wow.

That speaks volumes, and I don't even know if you were trying to make it that way.

I need to get to RSS.

Chuck Haggard
02-10-2012, 02:01 PM
So this might be a thread split -- I'll leave that up to the staff -- but as I mentioned my classes were a) a long time ago and b) never very focused on shooting technique after 250. I shoot about as well as I should given my utter inattention to the topic over the past many years and my fundamental inability to master physical skills. I would like to shoot better and faster; I am completely disinterested in competition given my time budget; and I'm certainly not particularly married to any technique. I need to pick an instructor who can give me an effective technique for freestyle and SHO shooting; they will need to train over my existing technique, but frankly I doubt I'll fight it much. I will follow up that class with less than an hour a week of dry fire and less than two hours per month of useful range time, so if it's not going to be something that I can accomplish under those constraints I probably shouldn't even start. I would vastly prefer a three day class but will deal with a five day if I have to (though that could push it into 2013 pretty quickly). Location is irrelevant -- they make airplanes.

Who is the best possible instructor for that task, and what is the class that I should take from that instructor?

The guys down at TDSA-Tulsa did a very good job for me. I was a Weaver guy, for many years. I took their AP-1 and switched my stance, grip, and draw after that weekend.

http://www.tdsatulsa.com/

JAD
02-10-2012, 03:15 PM
IMHO, Randy Cain,
I'm of course very familiar with Randy, and have it in my head that he is one of the great independents. However, I think of him as a classic Modern Technique instructor (I.e. someone I'm already in deep agreement with). I'd learn a lot from randy, but I doubt he would screw with the way I shoot. He, Jeans, Campbell, and Awerbuck are all in that category for me -- I hope to train with them and will learn a lot but I don't think I'm going to learn a lot about technique.

Or has cain switched to a 'modern iso/weaver?'

GJM
02-10-2012, 03:21 PM
I am hoping to attend Randy's Handgun 2 next week, have trained with him many times, and he is a favorite instructor. He doesn't teach Modern Iso.

JAD
02-10-2012, 04:02 PM
I am hoping to attend Randy's Handgun 2 next week, have trained with him many times, and he is a favorite instructor. He doesn't teach Modern Iso.

All's right with the world, then. I think RSS is the right place for me to learn (and evaluate) technique. Can I get away with that switch in his advanced class, or should I keep it basic? I would have little issue with his pre-req performance from my current technique.

beltjones
02-10-2012, 05:09 PM
The guys down at TDSA-Tulsa did a very good job for me. I was a Weaver guy, for many years. I took their AP-1 and switched my stance, grip, and draw after that weekend.

http://www.tdsatulsa.com/

And your trigger technique, too I bet.

agent-smith
02-10-2012, 07:34 PM
Is there any reason why I'm the only one that thought doctorpogo might want to take a class from Todd?

I'm not trying to be a kiss-ass or anything, but I think it might at least deserve consideration.

GJM
02-10-2012, 07:58 PM
All's right with the world, then. I think RSS is the right place for me to learn (and evaluate) technique. Can I get away with that switch in his advanced class, or should I keep it basic? I would have little issue with his pre-req performance from my current technique.

The Rogers Basic class is more appropriate for someone with little shooting experience, unfamiliar with muzzle blast, starts with .22's and works up to 9mm, using basically the same school drill. You should do the intermediate/advanced class. If your experience is like mine and most, on a first visit, you will be enlightened, humbled, and do much worse than you hoped.

You will do yourself, and especially your hands, a big favor by shooting a hi-cap 9mm.

JodyH
02-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Is there any reason why I'm the only one that thought doctorpogo might want to take a class from Todd?

I'm not trying to be a kiss-ass or anything, but I think it might at least deserve consideration.
My post is going to be a backhanded compliment to Todd.

Don't take Todd's class until you're an accomplished shooter.
If you're a novice or even a low intermediate shooter you're better off taking somebody else's class, diligently working on the fundamentals... THEN taking Todd's AFHF.
While a novice or intermediate will learn something from Todd, you will really get your money's worth if you have the fundamentals down to the point your mind is freed up to absorb his advanced material.

Chuck Haggard
02-10-2012, 11:02 PM
And your trigger technique, too I bet.

Indeed.

JAD
02-10-2012, 11:23 PM
You will do yourself, and especially your hands, a big favor by shooting a hi-cap 9mm.
-- such a thread split. I'll deal with that later.

JAD
02-10-2012, 11:32 PM
Dont take Todd's class until you're an accomplished shooter.
.
I have found that there are a few instructors -- Jim Crews was one, and I hear Randy Cain is another -- who can take a brief look at what you're doing, offer a moment's insight and a quick demo, and pretty radically improve your shooting. I'm not aware of one of those that teaches the postmodern technique (gotta call it something...). Todd might be like that, but that's not the way the class reports read.

I'm not exactly a novice or a complete duffer, and I could probably go to an AFHF and walk out with a usefully improved version of what I already do -- and probably be a much better shooter. However, I don't think that that particular class is the right place to tear my technique down and rebuild it.

I've read a lot of class reports for Rogers, actually, and don't really know what sort of instructor he is. I do know that his methods and his facilities will be perfect for quickly ingraining a radical technique change , if I can get enough coaching to execute the altered technique properly.

agent-smith
02-11-2012, 01:45 AM
My post is going to be a backhanded compliment to Todd.

Don't take Todd's class until you're an accomplished shooter.
If you're a novice or even a low intermediate shooter you're better off taking somebody else's class, diligently working on the fundamentals... THEN taking Todd's AFHF.
While a novice or intermediate will learn something from Todd, you will really get your money's worth if you have the fundamentals down to the point your mind is freed up to absorb his advanced material.

Thanks.

I wasn't trying to kiss-up, or say "You should only take a class from Todd" (which I haven't but will be doing so in April).

I was genuinely curious, and having not taken the AFHF I wasn't sure what to make of it; your response makes perfect sense.

HCM
02-11-2012, 09:38 AM
I have found that there are a few instructors -- Jim Crews was one, and I hear Randy Cain is another -- who can take a brief look at what you're doing, offer a moment's insight and a quick demo, and pretty radically improve your shooting. I'm not aware of one of those that teaches the postmodern technique (gotta call it something...). Todd might be like that, but that's not the way the class reports read.

I'm not exactly a novice or a complete duffer, and I could probably go to an AFHF and walk out with a usefully improved version of what I already do -- and probably be a much better shooter. However, I don't think that that particular class is the right place to tear my technique down and rebuild it.

I've read a lot of class reports for Rogers, actually, and don't really know what sort of instructor he is. I do know that his methods and his facilities will be perfect for quickly ingraining a radical technique change , if I can get enough coaching to execute the altered technique properly.

Doc,

Another Instructor for your consideration: Mike Seeklander http://www.shooting-performance.com/Shooting-Performance/Welcome.html. He's a proponent of the "post modern technique" and he has considerable experience teaching it to shooters who started with other systems via the FAMS and FLETC.

JodyH
02-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Thanks.

I wasn't trying to kiss-up, or say "You should only take a class from Todd" (which I haven't but will be doing so in April).

I was genuinely curious, and having not taken the AFHF I wasn't sure what to make of it; your response makes perfect sense.
I'm sure a novice would learn a lot from Todd, but I think the real value in his class is in the nuances, not the basics.

agent-smith
02-11-2012, 11:42 AM
I'm sure a novice would learn a lot from Todd, but I think the real value in his class is in the nuances, not the basics.

Understood.

I'll see you at the ABQ AFHF in April.

SweetScienceOfShooting
02-11-2012, 04:42 PM
To the OP, if you are looking for someone to break down your technique and rebuild it, you might want to consider individual/private training. The $ outlay upfront would be much higher than a typical 2 day group class of course but when you consider the individual attention given to your current skills and a personalized training program to follow post-class, it might be worth it. I have not gone this route but I considered it a couple years ago. The only instructor I had done research on for this was Matt Burkett (predatortactical.com) so I don't have any particular instructors I'd feel qualified to recommend.

rob_s
02-11-2012, 05:14 PM
The training industry is very, very wanting for someone to teach the post-modern technique as well as Randy Cain teaches the modern.

David S.
02-15-2012, 02:13 PM
OP: You, I'm sure, know that AFHF is going to be right down the road (Pittsburg, KS) from you next month?

Secondly, I'll recommend the only formal training that I've had to date. Practical Fundamentals with Bruce Gray at Operation Specific Training (http://opspectraining.com/). His blog post, Practical Fundamentals: Who is it for? (http://grayguns.com/graygunss-practical-fundamentals-who-is-it-for/) gives a good description of his primary class. If you dig enough on the Grayguns (http://grayguns.com) website you'll find some other articles pertaining to their training philosophy. I have taken this class twice and can't recommend it strongly enough. I look forward to taking one of their advanced classes later this year.

Despite being largely competition focused in content, I have found the Matt Burkett video series and Brian Enos' book quite helpful.

ETA: FWIW, Operation Specific Training teaches the "press out" technique.

Lomshek
02-22-2012, 12:17 AM
DocPogo, I'm hosting the AFHF class in Pittsburg, KS if you decide that may work after all (just email me). I have not taken any of his classes but I understand Clint Smith offers one-on-one or one-on-a-few training classes at Thunder Ranch. His reputation is impeccable.

Depending on your budget I would imagine that most instructors, given scheduling considerations, would be happy to offer one-on-one training geared to you if you think that would benefit you more than the usual dozen shooters format.

rob_s
02-22-2012, 05:20 AM
OP: You, I'm sure, know that AFHF is going to be right down the road (Pittsburg, KS) from you next month?

Secondly, I'll recommend the only formal training that I've had to date. Practical Fundamentals with Bruce Gray at Operation Specific Training (http://opspectraining.com/). His blog post, Practical Fundamentals: Who is it for? (http://grayguns.com/graygunss-practical-fundamentals-who-is-it-for/) gives a good description of his primary class. If you dig enough on the Grayguns (http://grayguns.com) website you'll find some other articles pertaining to their training philosophy. I have taken this class twice and can't recommend it strongly enough. I look forward to taking one of their advanced classes later this year.

I will be interested to hear what you think of these guys after you take some other classes.