Question on cast rifle loads

[entropy]

I have been rifle reloading now for a number of years. I’m familiar to “jumping”, “jamming”, finding optimal distance off the lands...etc. I produce some pretty decent ammo which performs out to 1K+.

I just found out loading cast is a whole other animal.

I picked up a nice vintage Winchester 94, and decided I wanted to load cast for it. I slugged the barrel (.308) and ordered up two different bullets from my “go-to” guys at Montana Bullet Works. A Lyman 173gr with a gas check, and a 165gr with a plain base of similar design. Both were ordered sized .309. Both were shown recommended for the 30-30. I researched loads, settling on Varget for the 173gr and Unique for reduced loads with the 165. Loaded them up, and they looked puuuuuurdy. I obviously didnt load a dummy round, nor did I measure distance to the lands with either slug. My “theory” was that the bullet was designed for the caliber, it had a crimping grove, and was the same approximate length of a factory jacketed. I also had ZERO desire to “push it” loading a very moderate charge for both.

Well imagine my surprise when loading my third round (single load) I noticed it was rather stiff to close the lever. Ejecting the round, the bullet remained in the barrel giving the action a nice douse of Varget. Stopped right there. Popped the slug out with a cleaning rod and took a look. Sure enough...bullet was nice and engraved. Never saw that coming. Made sure the bore was clear, and pulled out a box of factory to sight in the new receiver sight. I figured it shouldnt be a total loss.

So...who here has experience with cast rifle loads? I’ve done a bit of “web research” and found this is not only common...but perhaps desired. Unlike jacketed bullets, jamming cast “may” not be a bad thing. Right now, I have about 40rds of awesome looking cast loads awaiting my edumication. See below.

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[Malamute]

Part of the problem is the throating of different makes varies at times. Bullets of course vary considerably in how fat they are ahead of the case. Engaging the rifling to the degree it can pull the bullet isnt good. Thjeres a couple ways to deal with it, one, find another bullet that doesnt do that, open up the throat in your gun, or seat the bullets a bit deeper and crimp with Lee factory crimp type die.

For reduced loads, they may be OK to just shoot up. If going anywhere near full power, id be cautious about shooting them, maybe shoot one, see how the primer looks and case head expansion measures out, shoot another, measure case, repeat until happy with being safe. William Iorg on shootersforum has done tons of load work on 30-30s along with several other guys there, a search of his posts* turns up quite a lot of interesting information. Hes mentioned how much case head expansion hes willing to deal with, compared to known pressure loads. Hes worked with 30-30 Ackley improved as well as most of the Winchester 94 cartridge variations (307, 356, the Marlin rounds), and some other wildcats and is a very good resource for lever gun load info.

The Winchesters usually shoot cast fairly well without too much grief. Marlins with microgroove barrels often take more work to find a bullet and sizing diameter they like, many just give up. Id suggest looking around on the castboolit forum, maybe sign up and ask, along with your pics. Theres some really good resources regarding cast bullets and reloading in general there. if you do post there, give us a link here, Id like to see what they have to say about it.

Do you have the info on what the exact mold make and model is for the bullets you have? Many cast bullst companies give the mold numbers, which can be very helpful in getting info on problems like this, or duplicating known good loads.

Edit:* a start on looking with some comments about case head expansion https://www.google.com/search?ei=YObjWvzXM5PmjwSfhamwBA&q=william+iorg+30-30+case+head+expansion+shootersforum.com&oq=william+iorg+30-30+case+head+expansion+shootersforum.com&gs_l=psy-ab.12...976.1340.0.3877.2.2.0.0.0.0.149.226.1j1.2. 0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Ml3dPaV67Og

[Trooper224]

I've fired cast .30-06 loads out of a 1903. They make a nice, reduced gallery style load that's accurate out to 100 yards. Something for plinking, but nothing anywhere near a full power load.

[Hambo]

Search castboolits.com. There's a lot of cast rifle reloading experience there.

[entropy]

Appreciate the input. Yes, the Boolits site is a plethora of info. I’m picking up,a Lyman cast guide too...not exactly a popular shelf item anymore.

Again, the goal is not to hotrod, but get a nice 1700-1800-ish gas check load and maybe a 1300-something for a plinker.

[entropy]

Did a bunch of research. Bought a few manuals. Still not definitive on the issue. So here is my plan(s):

1. Measure the COAL by dropping a bullet into the breech and taking a measurement from the bore. Remove the slug, take another measurement to the breech face to establish a rough COAL for that particular bullet.

2. Trim a case to minimum length (or slightly less), crimp in the crimp groove as before, and see if I can get the shell to chamber without jamming into the rifling. Might have to use some dykem to assure there is still some freebore.

3. Ignore the crimp groove and crimp slightly above into the driving band.

4. A combination of 2 & 3.


Kind of running out of ideas after this. It’s puzzling that both bullets are specifically designed for the 30-30. The barrel on the rifle is original. It’s been slugged to measure .308. Jacketed designs all work just fine.

As a last resort, I suppose I could drop down to a 150gr or even a 120-ish with a shorter profile. If I end up using jacketed for anything serious and use lighter weight cast for plinking it won’t be the end of the world. It’s more of a challenge now than anything.

[jandbj]

Very interested in this topic as I am brand new to rifle reloading.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/The%20Load.htm Poke around the rest of Ed’s articles too. There is some gold in there!

I have 1k of these on had that I’ll be loading for 30-30 & .308 with 11-14 grains of red dot (loading data direct from Badman Bullets).
https://www.badmanbullets.com/OnlineStore/products.php?cat=30+Caliber+Polymer+Coated+Bullets

[entropy]

Thanks for the link. That “Appalachian Assault Rifle” article has been posted here before. It’s a classic and is saved in the hard drive. Along with the Red Dot, another classic load is 10gr Unique. About the same performance. As with any of the pistol/shotgun powders, paying attention while tossing the charge is a must.

[willie]

Laser-cast bullets sells an excellent 30-30 bullet(170 gr RNFPbb) sized .310. Crimp groove is in the correct place and nose accommodates 30-30 lever guns. Base is plain and not gas checked which is ok. They pay the freight. Consensus is that .309 diameter is too small. I urge you to clean your bore to remove all copper jacket material if you have not already done so. If you have Red Dot or Green Dot or Blue Dot shotgun powders and wish to use them here, pm me for some safe and accurate data.

In your notes you might record overall lengths of loaded rounds that function without issue. I suggest that you use functioning as the main criterion and not seating to the rifling. Seating to the rifling, although a theoretical best practice, will not prove to be a consideration for loading cast bullets in a lever action rifle. With experimentation you may discover that larger diameter cast bullets produce more accurate ammo and also are less likely to cause barrel leading. You may find that .311 or.312 diameters work best if the rifle will chamber them. It probably will. I suggest experimenting with shotgun powders first and then proceeding to rifle powders. This way you will keep your discovery phase simple. I recommend keeping velocity levels under 1250 fps with shotgun powders like Unique and the Dot series. Red Dot works nicely. 4.5 grains through and including 7.5 grains will give outstanding accuracy. Top velocity here is 1200 fps. Pressures are low.

[entropy]

Thanks for the info. Yep, bore and barrel copper free. I use the same product (Patch Out plus the Accellerator) that I use on my precision rifles. Back home tomorrow, prolly spend an evening at the bench loading some tests up before I head back to work. Keep you posted.

[Malamute]

If you stumble across some Hornady .310 or .315" round balls, grab a box. I drip a little Lee liquid alox lube on them in a butter tub, and load 3 grs Unique (Red Dot is probably better), and they make about as much noise as a std vel 22 LR. They slay grouse and bunnies quite well, and I took an impressive bull mouse with one once in the yard as it was raiding my birdseed.

[entropy]

Lol. Funny how the brain works... First time I read it, I SAW “bull moose”. I about choked on my beer.

Thanks for the tip. I try your moose load.

[Toonces]

Lol. Funny how the brain works... First time I read it, I SAW “bull moose”. I about choked on my beer.

Thanks for the tip. I try your moose load.

Damn straight! I read your quote and looked upstream to find the reason, and I thought he shot a moose with a round ball and 3 grains of Unique. Doable I suppose...

[NuJudge]

Another link you might want to spend hours reading through: http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm

Try to use bullets as-cast. Lead has some really strange metallurgy. All metals will spontaneously reorganize their crystals at a temperature which is about half of the melting temperature, expressed on either of the degrees absolute. For Lead, that temperature is about room temperature. The energy which drives this forward is cold work and other distortions in the crystallographic lattice. If you are sizing down a bullet, you are cold working it. If you cold work a Lead bullet, you may end up with a softer, not a harder bullet.

Generally, I want a harder bulllet for a cast Lead bullet. There are several old NRA publications which describe in detail what happens to make a cast bullet shoot badly. The bullet slumping to the side on firing is one, a softer bullet being more likely to do so. As with .22 rimfires, jamming a centerfire cast Lead bullet into the rifling is usually beneficial, probably because the rifling/throat support the bullet.

[entropy]

A bit more research finds short throats are common on many 94’s, especially pre-64’s. They were cut for the classic roundnose profile that has a pretty abrupt ogive. So I guess the question now is whether I want to find a plinking bullet (or perhaps maybe a shorter profile 150gr) that allows loading without jamming the lands...or do I just drop the idea and look for a lighter weight jacketed bullet to use as a plinker. I’m not too keen on mixing cast and jacketed as this is supposedly a recipie for leading.

The things you learn...

[Malamute]

A bit more research finds short throats are common on many 94’s, especially pre-64’s. They were cut for the classic roundnose profile that has a pretty abrupt ogive. So I guess the question now is whether I want to find a plinking bullet (or perhaps maybe a shorter profile 150gr) that allows loading without jamming the lands...or do I just drop the idea and look for a lighter weight jacketed bullet to use as a plinker. I’m not too keen on mixing cast and jacketed as this is supposedly a recipie for leading.

The things you learn...

Do you know what mold your bullets were cast from?*

Id post the question on the castboolits forum, what commercially available cast bullet is suitable for Winchester 94s in the weight range you want, then try some, or get a mold of that type. Ive not heard of this problem much in 94s, the bullets being pulled after being chambered, I think theres going to be tons of suitable bullets available, so long as you can get the right info on the mold being used, or feed back from people that have used that exact bullet in Winchesters. Its one of those things thats not generic, but requires specific info to get the right answers.

Edit: I re-read your first post, and looked at their site. The Lyman 311041 bullet is a common bullet used for 30-30s, the other just says "custom", which Id suspect being more of an issue than the Lyman, but I dont know if they both gave equal problems. The lead alloy can play a part in the finished diameter of the bullets. The nose of course isnt going to be sized like the driving bands, so its possible the Lyman mold is dropping bullets a bit fat in the nose. Some individual molds also can throw bullets that vary a little.

[entropy]

Appreciate all the assistance and the offer. I’m a member there too, but to be honest, I dont think I’ve posted there previously. I hate being “that guy” who shows up only to ask for help on his first post.

The one bullet is indeed the Lyman you mentioned, the other is unknown like you also say. I can drop them a line and let them know the issue and see if they have ideas. Also understand certain alloys dropping a bit oversize. The throat IS shallow though. I pulled a factory 170gr PowerPoint and inserted it into an empty case, seated it shallow, and closed the bolt allowing the bullet to find its max COAL. I then pulled and measured both the COAL and CBTO and compared to a loaded factory of the same. It appears that even with the factory loadings, I’m only jumping about .010”. Thats tight.

I also thought of finding some .30 Carbine bullets. Those might work as well. Like you say, there are dozens of moulds out there...need to find the match. The folks at Titan Reloading are great as well. Next time North may require a slight detour to stop in and ask.

Thanks again.

[SecondsCount]

I have shot some lead cast bullets in my 30-30 94 using Unique but don't remember there being an issue.

More recently I have been playing with the plated 150 grain bullet from Xtreme and Red Dot. A friend gave me 5 pounds of Red Dot and I thought this would be a good place to try it :)

[entropy]

Update. Emailed Montana Bullet Works. Also ordered up a Lee FCD as well as some Acme 135gr from Titan. The Acme 135s drop into the chamber nicely when crimped at the groove with the FCD. A bit more playing around with the Montana 165gr Custom and the 173gr Lyman (using the FCD) allowed for a bit more COAL without the same chambering and action closing difficulty previously experienced.

I pulled all the previous loads and ran the primed cases back thru the sizing and flaring dies. Plan now is to use Unique once again for reduced charges in the 135s and 165s, and Varget for the gas checked 173gr Lymans. I’ll start the Unique at about 7.0gr, and the Varget at 26.0gr. Looking for sub-1500fps with the Unique, and perhaps 1800 fps +/- with the Varget.

Not quite sure why the FCD made such a difference. Perhaps I was over agressive with the roll crimp. Dunno. I’ve used the FCD before and establshed a crimp that passes the “bench press test” so I doubt I will have issues with setback.

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