Strange Ammo Malfunction

[Doc_Glock]

I have been having recurrent problems with a lot of 124 grain PPU NATO Ammo. It locks up very reliable guns intermittently.

It also sheds circular or near circular chunks of brass which I think end up in the chamber and prevent the gun from going completely into battery, which is the malfunction I am getting.

My shooting area was cover s with these pieces after a few hundred rounds today and they were hitting me in the head and eye pro throughout the session.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/970b371f935c5a6d0c04ed75875b3ee0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/3cc13bb4a23c211f91c2cfd4aced1539.jpg

Malfunction OOB:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/cfefaf3c1225a6a077d7f0f3b2b31631.jpg

Ammo box

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/fb076a75adfb5a3bc79594c402aff2f4.jpg

I am simply curious what causes this as I have never seen the problem before? I case gauged a few cartridges that failed to feed and they were in spec.

I may contact PPU directly about the issue but wanted to get input from here as well. The culprit seems to be limited to 124 grain NATO as I have regular pressure stuff that seems to run fine.

[schüler]

I like me some Enel posts.

Do fired cases indicate where these shaved bits are coming from? Jacket or brass?

Have you taken a caliper to fired/unfired brass OAL?

[GJM]

I would stop trying to gather data, and discontinue shooting that ammo!

[Greg]

Normal shooting or was a hammer involved? :cool:

[LOKNLOD]

I would like to see Unfired rounds next to fired brass.

Does this appear to be limited to the HKs? Issue related to the stepped chamber somhow?

[Wendell]

*****

[Doc_Glock]

I would like to see Unfired rounds next to fired brass.

Does this appear to be limited to the HKs? Issue related to the stepped chamber somhow?

I don’t know much about HK chambers. It seems to happen more in the HK, but it completely locked up a PPQ to the point I had to dismantle the gun, and remove a brass ring lodged in the distal end of the chamber.

I think the ring is coming from the brass, not the jacket.

[Doc_Glock]

I would stop trying to gather data, and discontinue shooting that ammo!

But I still have a couple thousand!

[hufnagel]

that much material it should be pretty damn obvious where it's coming from, if it's from the case!

[Doc_Glock]

More info as requested.

Unfired OAL: 1.151”

Cases next to unfired.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/5d16354a3f67d2912b04807969ab5865.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/a2f9135e2db14bb525083b8b2625e60c.jpg

Case gauge unfired.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/4c99c83652dcbe5748ee6df0d7e04801.jpg

[Doc_Glock]

I inspected about 50 pieces of brass and didn’t find anything missing from them. But I shot 310 today and it’s just luck of the draw if I find one that sheared.


I did find two that were smashed into the chamber with the debris and it left an impression on them.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/563d47b6ddbf7d09ce3e79a5f3fc1cfe.jpg

[schüler]

Two appear longer in case length - looks like extractor groove is taller on the cases on the ends. At end of chamber the bullet tries to take case mouth with it?

[schüler]

*i was referencing the lineup of three expended/one live.

[Doc_Glock]

If it helps, these are the pistols that have issues with the ammo:

Difficulty chambering:
P30l
Steyr MA1
PPQ

The HK seems worst, but still malfunctions are only a 1-2% thing. Debris flying is multiple shots every mag.

Failures to extract:
Beretta PX4C

Pistols that don’t seem to care:
Glocks
Beretta 92s

I have not tried it in anything else.

[Trooper224]

What does the interior of the cases look like. Is there a inner step in the case?

[schüler]

Any pull downs of loaded rounds? I doubt it's anything internal or left over from manufacturing but who knows.

Do the cases with large extractor cuts have noticeable case volume or internal depth differences?

Maybe chrono the stuff if you still feel safe shooting it.

I'd half expect this from Freedom reman... but not PPU.

[willie]

The importer will replace your ammo. I think that they will ask for it back.

[Ed L]

I would stop trying to gather data, and discontinue shooting that ammo!


But I still have a couple thousand!

Sorry to sound this way, but if you keep shooting it you may soon need to buy replacement guns if you keep firing it through the guns that are exhibiting those problems.

[Spartan1980]

Do they fit the chamber of your barrel like they do the case gage? That bullet looks really long. Do they spin freely when chambered? Pull the barrel out to chamber check.

[Doc_Glock]

What does the interior of the cases look like. Is there a inner step in the case?

There is a noticeable rim inside some cases. It is a dark ring that seems a little gooey. I don’t think any brass is missing there but it is the right shape.

[Doc_Glock]

I'd half expect this from Freedom reman... but not PPU.

No kidding. It is actually beautiful Ammo externally. It looks primo.

[Doc_Glock]

Do they fit the chamber of your barrel like they do the case gage? That bullet looks really long. Do they spin freely when chambered? Pull the barrel out to chamber check.

Will be a day or so before I can do this but
thanks for the idea.

[Doc_Glock]

Any pull downs of loaded rounds? I doubt it's anything internal or left over from manufacturing but who knows.

Do the cases with large extractor cuts have noticeable case volume or internal depth differences?

Maybe chrono the stuff if you still feel safe shooting it.


All the above is beyond my capabilities.

[Duelist]

If it helps, these are the pistols that have issues with the ammo:

Difficulty chambering:
P30l
Steyr MA1
PPQ

The HK seems worst, but still malfunctions are only a 1-2% thing. Debris flying is multiple shots every mag.

Failures to extract:
Beretta PX4C

Pistols that don’t seem to care:
Glocks
Beretta 92s

I have not tried it in anything else.

Shoot it through the Glocks and Beretta’s, and shoot something else through the others.

[Spartan1980]

There is a noticeable rim inside some cases. It is a dark ring that seems a little gooey. I don’t think any brass is missing there but it is the right shape.

That's likely bullet sealant if they are made to true NATO spec. Like mentioned I'd cease and desist firing any of more them until you hear from the manufacturer. And I was just thinking about nabbing a case of this myself.

[Trooper224]

There is a noticeable rim inside some cases. It is a dark ring that seems a little gooey. I don’t think any brass is missing there but it is the right shape.

I've seen 9mm cases of European manufacture with and interior step. I assume it's to help prevent bullet set back. I've seen malfunctions occur when the case separates at the step, leaving the front section of the case in the chamber. I wonder if something similar is happening here? The case exteriors don't seem affected.

[Hambo]

Enel, are you sure that's brass and not jacket material? It looks like what you get when a revolver is shaving bullets, but I've never seen that in an auto.

[Doc_Glock]

That's likely bullet sealant if they are made to true NATO spec. Like mentioned I'd cease and desist firing any of more them until you hear from the manufacturer. And I was just thinking about nabbing a case of this myself.

I heard back from PPU promptly. Here is the text of email:

“the nato 9mm is meant for military style carbines and in most cases too hot for pistol use. We recommend standard 9mm ammo for pistols. We can trade you the nato ammo for standard 9mm.”

I don’t think I will bother trading it and just shoot it in the 92s and Glocks.

I had heard HKs like relatively hot Ammo for the first few thousand rounds which is why I bought this originally.

It does seem to cause problems with failure to extract in the PX4, which may be to higher pressure?

And maybe this is a great excuse to buy a 9mm carbine:)

[Doc_Glock]

Enel, are you sure that's brass and not jacket material? It looks like what you get when a revolver is shaving bullets, but I've never seen that in an auto.

I don’t know. The material is really thin and much smaller than it appears in the photo above.

[BN]

Are the bullets jacketed or plated? I have seen plated bullets do funny things because they come apart sometimes.

[Doc_Glock]

Interesting. This ammo is the same which was used in the APX Kaboom thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29924-Had-a-kaboom-with-my-Beretta-APX!

General consensus is that it is really hot and best for sub gun use.

I ran it past the owner of SGAmmo.com and he said he sold 1875 cases of it and never had a problem reported to him before me. Once again I am finding apparently novel problems with guns and/or ammo.

I don't actually believe that, I just think most people don't pay attention or don't care.

I am retiring the PPU NATO spec ammo from general HK pistol use.

[OlongJohnson]

I'd pull some bullets and see if the ring is sitting in the case before it's fired. Could be shavings from some step of the mfg process.

[Hambo]

I'd pull some bullets and see if the ring is sitting in the case before it's fired. Could be shavings from some step of the mfg process.

Good idea. For Enel, https://www.amazon.com/Frankford-Arsenal-Quick-n-EZ-Impact-Bullet/dp/B001B7ZB4Q/ref=sr_1_1/141-7949706-3199027?ie=UTF8&qid=1524917877&sr=8-1&keywords=bullet+pullers

[JohnO]

My first thought was that something is happening at the end of the chamber at the transition from chamber to lead to rifling. If jacket material it could be from bullet profile and Over All Length.

https://content.invisioncic.com/r270761/monthly_2017_05/IMG_3075.thumb.GIF.738cdf7e3d893dbfad32b7611a781a0 a.GIF

http://i47.tinypic.com/bhkfbn.gif

I would take the barrel out of the gun, put a round in the chamber then do my best to put some pressure on the round while rotating it then look for any telltale markings.

[ssb]

Well shit. I squirreled away a couple of cases of this for a few classes this summer, both lot 1706. I've yet to fire any yet.

Enel, was there any rhyme or reason to when these issues showed up? Was it more frequently than once every hundred rounds or so? I'm asking since I suppose I'll need to test-fire some.

[Doc_Glock]

This ammunition continues to be problematic. I tried running it in a 9mm 1911 Range Officer and ended up with some over pressure rounds and bits of primer getting into and blocking the firing pin hole in the breech. I still have two full cases of the stuff. In discussion with Tim Poteet from PPU, he seems to feel it is intended for SMGs, not pistols. Otherwise he had nothing to offer.

Blocked firing pin hole:


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/ed1a2e76f12f9762d63a88c86fe79948.jpg

Found the above in the firing pin channel after I started experiencing light strikes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/bf40c54c1977de2f192e94e073089fbd.jpg

I think that is primer bulge, but have never actually seen it before.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/51331f9708c836d88c022df189082277.jpg

Avoid this stuff.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/58deca3054f5213f4612cfe880c8cd10.jpg


Unfortunately I was shooting both 115 and 124 grain today and I couldn’t tell you which it was. I have shot up all the 115 grain at this point but still have two cases of 124 grain left. If I have any problems going forward it will be the 124. I hope it was the 115 that has the issue.

I certainly won’t shoot it in this particular gun going forward. I am debating just sending the two cases back to SGA as they offered a refund, I just don't know how it works with shipping, etc.

Guns so far that don’t like this ammo:
Walther PPQ
STEYR M9A1
Springfield Range Officer 1911
HK P30
Beretta PX4

That is a broad selection of quality firearms. I am surprised we are not hearing reports on problems from others.

Glocks and Beretta 92s don’t seem to mind it. >85% of shooters shoot Glocks, so maybe that is why:)

[Trooper224]

I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze, send it back.

[GuanoLoco]

That’s over-pressure, and showing evidence of primer flow on what I suspect is already a very hard primer. Primer flow precedes primer piercing, which allows a high pressure stream of hot gas to be shot at your firing pin and/or breech face, potentially eroding either or both. I’ve seen weaker cases (usually Win) rupture at the base of the case at the end of the case head - this will give you a face full of blowback gunk from many semi-autos.

Send it back.

[Doc_Glock]

That’s over-pressure, and showing evidence of primer flow on what I suspect is already a very hard primer. Primer flow precedes primer piercing, which allows a high pressure stream of hot gas to be shot at your firing pin and/or breech face, potentially eroding either or both. I’ve seen weaker cases (usually Win) rupture at the base of the case at the end of the case head - this will give you a face full of blowback gunk from amny semi-autos.

Send it back.

Sgammo has already issued a UPS call tag for my remaining cases. Great service from them. PPU...not so much.

And thank you!

[GuanoLoco]

The other clus tht this is a hard primer - usually in overpressure scenarios you will see a flattening of the primer, where the rounded edges inside of the red sealant at forced flat into the primer pocket against the breech face.

This is interesting in that there is extensive flow where the firing pin strikes, even to the point of that material coming off completely WITHOUT flattening the rest of the primer. I haven’t seen this before. This is also why I said it is a very hard primer on a very high pressure round - a softer primer would have flattened and/or pierced.

I’m also guessing that they used an overly fast-burning powder, rather than using a slower-burning powder that would get the desired velocity from a carbine length barrel without generating so much pressure.

https://www.gunnuts.net/2009/04/03/9mm-nato-vs-9mm-luger/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/9mm_Luger_vs__9mm_NATO/20-99093/

Maximum pressure specs:
C.I.P 9mm = 34,083 PSI (235 Mega-Pascals)
SAAMI 9mm = 35,000 PSI
SAAMI 9mm +P = 38,500 PSI
NATO 9mm = 36,550 PSI

So this SHOULD be < SAAMI +P in terms of pressure, which shouldn’t cause these problems, and I’m betting it is well over that pressure and/or there are other issue(s).

[Rock185]

Enel, once the ammo has displayed issues in more than one manufactuer's gun, I would consider that strong evidence that the issue is the ammo, not your guns.

I have used thousands of rounds of Winchester 124 NATO and IMI 124 NATO, but never tried the PPU. Both the Winchester and IMI bear the NATO cross-in-circle head stamp. I can't tell from your photo if the PPU case head has the NATO cross-in-circle stamp? If not, regardless of what the box label says, the ammo is not actually NATO spec. I shoot a lot of 9MM, and wonder whether some foreign ammo marketed as "NATO" actually is?