Shooting on the run ... why? when?

[Erick Gelhaus]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30787-Tips-for-working-on-shooting-on-the-run-sprint

Since Mr_White was addressing the mechanics in the original thread, linked above, I'll ask here ... Why would you choose to shoot on the run? I'm asking in a domestic police work, decent normal human being defensive situation. When & why would you shoot on the run?

[jnc36rcpd]

Given enough training, I imagine some might be able to shoot accurately on the run. That said, I doubt most will achieve that skill, especially those whose training is at the standard patrol or even SWAT level.

I would personally not attempt to shoot while running. While I believe shooting while moving is a necessary skill, a walk is the best most will achieve while delivering accurate hits. Indeed, in most cases, moving to cover quickly and then firing is the better option.

[1slow]

Totally dependent on shooters skill set.

[txdpd]

Totally dependent on shooters skill set.

That's what should happen. Regardless of skill levels, if an officer decides that running and shooting is the immediate solution the problem, that's what he's going to do. The skill set will influence the hit to miss ratio and the ultimate outcome. In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.

I'm in the run and then shoot camp, since running and shooting outside of controlled environment had a very high risk of tripping. Look at how many cops trip and get injured in foot pursuits, and that's without a gun completely blocking the lower half of the field of vision.

Closing in on a better armed/armored opponent is probably best done with running and shooting. Breaking away from suspect in a gunfight that starts at contact distance, i.e. arrest situations, is best done as quickly as possible. Human shield/hostage rescues. Situations where running and shooting is the least bad option available.

[Hambo]

When & why would you shoot on the run?

Never.


In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.

I think there are about a million more useful things to spend limited training time on.


Human shield/hostage rescues.

Whoa, that's a terrible idea.

[Drang]

Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
When & why would you shoot on the run?Never.
While I am hesitant to engage in absolutes, especially when a triple scotch into unwinding from a truly crappy graveyard shift, the only examples I can come up with put me back in my soldier suit, and having just entered my sixth decade, that ain't likely to happen.



Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
In a perfect world, it's something everyone should train.
I think there are about a million more useful things to spend limited training time on.
In a perfect world, this would just be an exercise in an impractical application of physics. IOW, I concur with Hambo.



Quote Originally Posted by txdpd View Post
Human shield/hostage rescues.
Whoa, that's a terrible idea.

Not being a FAM, or HRT, DevGru, or MI6/SAS operator, I agree. Again.

[Mr_White]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30787-Tips-for-working-on-shooting-on-the-run-sprint

Since Mr_White was addressing the mechanics in the original thread, linked above, I'll ask here ... Why would you choose to shoot on the run? I'm asking in a domestic police work, decent normal human being defensive situation. When & why would you shoot on the run?

Apologies if this is out of order in the LE forum. I'd really like to address the question, but I'll do it generically for the 'decent human being in a defensive situation', not specific to LE which I obviously am not. But I think there is plenty of commonality there. :)

A couple examples -

Example 1: There is a place we want to be, we're going there pretty fast, and at some point before we get there the shooting becomes practical under the circumstances, but we also want to keep moving. Say the shot trajectory from present location is unsafe to bystanders in/near foreground or background. While moving to improve the shot trajectory, there is a point where it becomes a practical shot, but continuing to move even further improves the trajectory. Once sufficiency is achieved, the shooting can start while continuing to move and thus further improve trajectory and safety to bystanders.

Example 2: When recognition is made of a deadly threat and the need to shoot, we also recognize that we have a large initiative deficit under the present conditions. Explosive movement can buy the time to get the gun out and hits on and take effect and the continued movement helps keep his attack from connecting. Say it's us, him, a brick wall behind him, and he's got a gun pointed at us, 3-7 yards away. Go.

We could come up with other examples too.

I would readily agree that shooting on the run is realistically not at a sprint. A gentle run is doable. It is not an all-the-time technique and has narrow application imho, but various places for it do exist.

There has to be foreknowledge of an avenue of movement of a useable length, whether very specific, or more general and requiring a quick look in the direction of travel to plot a course as the movement is started, then eyes back on threat to continue evaluating and shooting. There is limited opportunity to land hits while on the run. The difficulty increases dramatically as distance is significantly extended and an extreme angle to the threat is reached. When those factors emerge, it is probably time to stop and just shoot, or forego the shooting and just keep moving, even if shooting on the run was a realistic option just a moment before.

It's critical that the shot difficulty and consequences for missing support doing the shooting in a relatively high state of motion.

It is also important that the worst of both worlds not be the product. The movement needs to be aggressive enough to provide temporary security, and not defeat the more permanent security intended to be achieved with the shooting, which has to remain good enough.

If the spatial circumstances and shooter support it, it is hard for me to think of a stronger immediate action response to initiative deficit against a deadly threat outside contact distance, than abruptly breaking into a run and landing a head shot.

Move - stop - shoot is a classically excellent pattern and is the mainstay. There are little places to shoot on the run, circumstance and shooter-dependent.

To me, the reasons to shoot on the run are largely the same as the reasons to shoot on the walk. It just requires that much more skill from the shooter in exchange for more security from the increased movement speed.

[RevolverRob]

I've seen enough dashcam/bodycam footage of OISes to be reasonably assured that being able to shoot on the move at a moving target, is a skillset you want to have. The more confident you are in being able to shoot while moving as fast as possible, the better off you are, in my opinion. Fundamental skills that work at high speed don't suddenly stop working at low speed or while stationary...

I guess I think of it like the standards of accuracy we want to strive for. On the range we want 100% accuracy at as close to 100% speed as possible. So that when the bad stuff happens, we can be reasonably assured to hit 80-90% at 110% speed. Shooting on the move is multi-variable equation and requires practice to solve it efficiently. Barring inadequate space to work, why not practice shooting on the walk/trot/jog/run?

By the by, I guess this is where I feel laser/airsoft training gains real value. That is being able to do dynamic training exercises like this in a controlled environment.

[Surf]

There is a time to shoot;
a time to move;
a time to move then shoot;
a time to shoot then move;
a time to shoot while moving;
and a time to haul ass.

Skillset and the situation will be the determining factors. But shooting on a flat out run would be a very unlikely (not impossible) scenario. Shooting while on the run often detracts from the primary reason for running.

[JHC]

The first one that came to mind; shooting when really hauling ass was a variation of Gabe's #1. If one was totally exposed and hauling ass to a covered position - then because of multiple BGs or the orginal one or more BG's movement - a BG appeared, occupying where I was about to arrive at, I think the adaptive problem solving could involve firing in the full charge vs posting out in the open. Especially so if now the range was very close.

As Surf's post indicates, it all depends. It's not as easy as a pre-programmed menu. It's problem solving of unique one off scenarios.

[Dagga Boy]

There is a time to shoot;
a time to move;
a time to move then shoot;
a time to shoot then move;
a time to shoot while moving;
and a time to haul ass.

Skillset and the situation will be the determining factors. But shooting on a flat out run would be a very unlikely (not impossible) scenario. Shooting while on the run often detracts from the primary reason for running.

Well, that saved me from typing. And I will add the shooting while moving is a lot different than shooting while running. I have also found out through the school of hard earned and painful experience that if you are running as a cop with a gun in your hand.....you are likely wrong and moving faster than you can think which often leads to poor outcomes.

[JDD]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30787-Tips-for-working-on-shooting-on-the-run-sprint

Since Mr_White was addressing the mechanics in the original thread, linked above, I'll ask here ... Why would you choose to shoot on the run? I'm asking in a domestic police work, decent normal human being defensive situation. When & why would you shoot on the run?

It's a multi-part question, that deserves a multi-part answer:

1. I would like my shooting while on the move to be as strong as it reasonably can be within the constraints of the training time budget I have available. I see shooting on the move as a fundamental skill, that underpins most room entry techniques. If you can't effectively engage your corner accurately while clearing the doorway and room for the stack coming in behind you, then you are not an effective member of that element. Same for the folks coming behind you and then moving laterally while scanning their sectors. That said, I don't room clear "on the run."

2. Similarly, I see shooting on the run as the natural (extreme) progression of taking a side step during your draw when engaged while flat-footed and away from cover. I want to engage the threat, and I want to use cover. I want both of those things as quickly as possible. If I am suddenly presented with multiple threats, I may use a spread fire technique, or I may engage while moving to cover as expeditiously as possible. With the second option, I will sacrifice accuracy for speed to cover. If possible, I will sacrifice the minimum amount of accuracy possible. I see this as a more likely use of shooting "on the run."

That said, I would have trouble justifying substantial time on getting good at shooting on the run in a limited training budget. In the same way that I won't spend the time to bring my support hand only marksmanship to an unusually high level, I also can't justify training shooting on the run if it will be to the determent of other fundamentals (or broader job proficiency). I would love to have it as a skill, and I can't think of a situation where the ability to move rapidly while delivering accurate fire would not be potentially useful, but I think that for many folks who do not have unusually high amounts of time to spend on the range, it would be at the expense of other fundamental skills. Many of the advantages are filled by the ability to deliver accurate fire while on the move at a more moderate rate.

[WOLFIE]

For the sake of humor, has anyone seen the movie Equilibrium? The gun kata comes to mind.

[KPD]

In 1996 I attended an FBI Officer Survival school. It was a week of a ton of shooting. Shooting on the move was a regular training event. Shooting while running was also taught. For around 5 minutes. As best I can recall it involved dragging a foot briefly and taking your shot in the “pause” that dragging your foot supposedly created. We all tried it once, maybe twice, and that was the end of it. I am pretty sure no one hit much. Basically shooting on the run was presented as a possible thing to do, but not a recommended practice.

[Mr_White]

In 1996 I attended an FBI Officer Survival school. It was a week of a ton of shooting. Shooting on the move was a regular training event. Shooting while running was also taught. For around 5 minutes. As best I can recall it involved dragging a foot briefly and taking your shot in the “pause” that dragging your foot supposedly created. We all tried it once, maybe twice, and that was the end of it. I am pretty sure no one hit much. Basically shooting on the run was presented as a possible thing to do, but not a recommended practice.

Very interesting report - thank you KPD!

There are a couple different mechanical strategies to employ:

1. Smooth the movement as much as possible, have faith in the wobble zone, press trigger continuously and patiently. Essentially, this is simply an adaptation of basic marksmanship.

2. Press the trigger and fire "now" during a moment of less gun-target disruption (a better moment within the wobble zone.) This does work, but requires the shooter to press "now" and not mess it up. This is different from the usual basic marksmanship pattern. The better moment of gun-target alignment is usually when no foot is currently striking the ground. That's when the bounce happens. I wonder if the foot-dragging thing is another way to talk about it/think about it, or if it's actually different foot movement. Either way, same category to me.

When I teach this, I use #1. #2 is worth exploring but I wouldn't start with it in the initial introduction.

I also invest quite a bit more time in it. The main presentation to the whole class is about 20 minutes or so. Then I spend approximately 7-8 minutes working with each shooter individually. This is the only safe way to start building the skill. They each go through a dry/live progression and by the end of that have tried 20-25 repetitions. That introduction is on a full paper/cardboard silhouette at 5 yards. We are absolutely trying for As on all shots, but the large paper gives us plenty of feedback on less than ideal shots so we can hopefully make specific and useful corrections rather than just guessing at what didn't go right. Then the follow on exercise is an informal, person vs. person contest on steel where they get another 10 or 15 tries.

The shooter has to have some marksmanship ability in the first place. That's the main thing. They need to be able to keep shots within 2-3 inches at 7 yards in untimed static shooting and then generally they can get started at doing this.

I seriously doubt any of this is very useful outside a group of enthusiasts who are personally dedicated at least some extent to excellence with their pistols.

[Failure2Stop]

I'm with Gabe on this.

If I am booking to cover with a gun in my control, and discover that there is someone else that thought that the place I am moving toward also seemed like good cover and beat me to it, and shows hostile intent, it is a simpler solution to shoot while rapidly closing than it is to stop and shoot, or slow to a walk and shoot; and definitely better than hoping that my UA underwear suddenly becomes level IV+. Same goes for the movement to cover revealing a necessity to effectively engage that was not a factor when the movement began.

In a chaotic violent encounter, I would consider being effective on an immediate threat while moving at the speed that one moves to cover to be a more relevant skill than one-handed double-feed clearance. Shooting well enough in bad situations wins the day. There's some old quote about "not rising to the occasion, but defaulting to training" that seems relevant here.