LEM variant questions

[Shapap]

I've currently been using a hk p2000 lem v2 and thanks to the fine people on this website I have seemed to iron out a lot of my initial marksmanship problems I was having learning the setup. After reading Toddg's article on DAK vs LEM I noticed where he preferred the v4 setup and that the "heavy FPBS" serves no purpose other than increasing the trigger pull weight. There also seems to be alot of people whom also prefer the V1 "light" setup on all their guns and recommend it pretty heavily.

Well after reading all that stuff, i've been getting the itch to play around with it a bit. I am doing pretty well with the V2 now so part of me is saying 'well just stick with that', but another part of me is wondering if i'm really missing out on something...and if I get it just right my groups might get a little tighter during speed shooting.

From what I've read so far, it seems the V4 fits the way I shoot more than the V1 does. As soon as the trigger breaks and the gun fires, my trigger finger releases and rides it to the reset point....The heavy TRS seems to help me with this, or atleast feels like it is making it easier. It sounds like the V1 is kinda sluggish or laggy at this, but then I see this http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Light-Trigger-Return-Spring-HK-Pistols-203p2081.htm ...It says it has a "better' reset so I'm wondering if that fixes the possible laggy reset of the v1?

As I understand it, neither of these options will give me a "shorter' reset (though I might be wrong), Just changes the trigger pull weight, and the weight at which the trigger returns to the reset point. So I guess all this fills my head full of questions like...

1) Does a lighter trigger pull = more accuracy? (Thats probably a very subjective and loaded question, forgive me)

2) For you guys running the V1...are any of you running that spring? If so, do you have any problems short stroking the trigger during speed?

3) For the guys running the V4...is there a big difference in the 'feel' of the trigger pull when you are shaving off only 1lb?

4) Any guys here that actually prefer the V2 setups over the others?

5) Should I just stop over-thinking all this and stick with the V2 since I am doing fine with it?


Normally, I would just try out all the variants myself...but I am kinda afraid I'm going to mess it up if I try and work on it, so I have to send it to a gunsmith to have it done...and he's like 8 weeks behind currently. So i'm trying to do as much research as possible in hopes that it will save me some money and time.

Thank you for your input.

[JodyH]

In my P2000 I run a straight V2.
In my P30 I run a V2 with the lighter FPB spring (basically makes it identical to the P2000 V2).
For me the lighter TRS made the trigger reset weaker and lighter than I prefer.

[SamuelBLong]

I've run v1 and now v4 in my P30L. I never have set my gun up V2, but I have shot a V2 gun.

v1 I did have a few instances where I short stroked the trigger when trying to go for speed. I haven't had any instances where I've done that with the v4 setup.

Not sure how i feel regarding the v2 to v4 difference...I just know I like the v4. I like the firmer takeup, reset and more "roll". Its helped my press out accuracy, and I've seen a decrease in my splits as well.

I'd say if you're doing fine with the V2, don't worry about it.

[LSP972]

My wife and I have seven LEM-equipped HK pistols between us; three P2000s (two .40s and a 9mm), two USP Compacts in .40, and two HK45 Compacts. I have owned several others, to include the USPf Combat Competition with the "match LEM". Further, I have installed a LEM in several V1s for friends, as well as my own. Most of the USP/HK series guns arrive in-country as V1s, and must be modified to LEM status. The P-series LEMs pretty much come from the factory that way. Now that HK is shifting production of the HK45 and P2000 to Wilcox in New Hampshire, that may change. An exception to this is the recent plethora of USP Compact .40s on the market. These were extra, un-issued FFDO (Federal Flight Deck Officer, aka armed airline pilots) guns that TSA dumped on the market.

To my knowledge, there are three different "weights" of trigger return spring. The heaviest one is identified by the square spring stock. The "medium" example has round spring stock, gray in color. The lightest one has round stock of a bit less gauge, black in color. That lightest one definitely provides the lightest pull, but I have also experienced sluggish trigger return in several pistols. I believe this is due to tolerance stacking, as it were, in those particular pistols. A competent mechanic, like Bruce Gray's people, could probably eliminate it. All my HKs are carried at one point or another, so I refrain from trying to "clean it up" myself; I just put the medium spring in there, and problem solved.

As to the question about will the lightest spring allow one to "shoot faster", I couldn't say. Personally, I don't see the need to agonize over hundreths of a second in my "splits". While I can definitely notice the better, crisper pull afforded by the light TR spring, I don't notice an ability to reset the trigger faster because of it. That may well be due to a lack of skill on my part, but I get along just fine with what I've got. I shoot as fast as I can re-acquire the sights (or dot) and get acceptable hits. If I can stay in the black of a B-8 target, ten yards away, at speed and from the holster, then I'm happy. So far, the gun always works faster than me.

Hope that answered your question.

.

[John Ralston]

Mine started as a V2, and I switched to a V4 in a progression, since one of the springs was on backorder at the time. I could easily tell the difference in the trigger pull after each spring change. It felt like a dramatic change to me, and I think it really is the optimal setup.

[kennjen]

I'm a relatively new shooter, but I'll put in my 2 cents as I've played with my USPc LEM a bit. I'm going to address your specific questions and then make a generic statement.
(BTW, v1 is light lem and v2 is heavy LEM right ?)

1) Is lighter LEM=more accuracy: Maybe it's true within the context of bulls eye type of slow deliberate shooting. But, I do not think so for rapid combat type of shooting. I like V2 better. Besides, if you are shooting bulls eye OR just target then LEM is not really the appropriate system. You should be shooting slicked up DA/SA or combat competion (Light LEM + match)

2) V1 spring problems: When I was using it, my gun had a problem cycling the trigger. That is, if I manipulate the trigger REALLY slowly, it would get stuck some times. I did not have a problem with "Short stroking", however.

3) v4: No comment as I never played with it.

4) V2 preferred : I prefer v2. It's easier for me to rapidly fire with stronger trigger return spring. I find it prevents me from slapping the trigger. The light lem almost forces me to manipulate the trigger too quickly and causes me to slap the trigger.

5) over thinking it ? : No I don't think you are. There is a big difference between these versions. You should try them out as the changes are not that hard to make by yourself. Also, as gun enthusiasts, we *should* be mulling over little details like this.....otherwise, we'd all be shooting Glock 19s.


Now....some generic statements:

FPBS : strong spring here serves no other purpose than to create an intermediary stage in your trigger stroke. I feel that weakest FPBS that allows pin block function is in order here.

Light LEM : Besides the fact that I actually don't like it. I think it's too light to be safe in daily carry. I know others would disagree. But IMHO, I feel the sear can be tripped relatively easy with light LEM, if a cornor of my jacket slipped in between the trigger and the holster. Sure, you should train to actively avoid this, but IF I FAIL to do so, I have the mechanics of the heavy LEM to prevent it.

Hope it helps ! Take it with few grains of salt, it's an opinion on the Internet.. coming from a beginner no less.

[kennjen]

definitive-p30-p30l-lem-trigger-chart

lhttp://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/140436-definitive-p30-p30l-lem-trigger-chart.html

[LSP972]

Light LEM : I think it's too light to be safe in daily carry. .

I agree whole-heartedly. I had Bill Springfield do one of his jobs on my first HK45C. It was just as light and sweet as my USPf Combat Competition.

But when I began working with it from the holster, at speed, the second time I touched a round off before getting fully lined up, I changed the mainspring back to stock to "heavy it up" a bit. No more premature shots...

.

[joshs]

1) Does a lighter trigger pull = more accuracy? (Thats probably a very subjective and loaded question, forgive me)

To an extent, yes. A heavier trigger pull will magnify errors in the trigger press. But, there are many other trigger characteristics that affect trigger preference.


2) For you guys running the V1...are any of you running that spring? If so, do you have any problems short stroking the trigger during speed?

I tried the V1 for a short time, but did not like it. I did have short stroking problems, but I also didn't like the way the V1 made the sear engagement more distinct (Glock-like).


3) For the guys running the V4...is there a big difference in the 'feel' of the trigger pull when you are shaving off only 1lb?

I never used the regular V4. When I switched out the FPB spring I also changed to the lighter mainspring (214300). Both of these changes together reduced the "staginess" of the trigger.


4) Any guys here that actually prefer the V2 setups over the others?

I used the V2 for a while. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I prefer the lighter FPB spring and mainspring.


5) Should I just stop over-thinking all this and stick with the V2 since I am doing fine with it?

If you are happy with the V2, then you will probably like the VTGS (lighter FPB spring and mainspring) better. It has the major benefit of the V2, a more positive reset, but is also lighter and has less of a "second stage" at the end of the pull. If you do decide to change, then you may want to consider changing the parts yourself. Both are very easy to change; the only tools required are a roll pin punch and a hammer.

[Shapap]

Thank you, this has been VERY helpful to me. From what you guys are saying, at this point I am going to rule out V1. I just don't think its going to mix well with the way I currently shoot and I like the option of being able to carry safely. V4 sounds very tempting.

With V2, when I roll right through the trigger pull it seems smooth and crisp, but if I had to nitpick I do feel the 'staging' part of it..almost like two different trigger pulls within one, which can cause somewhat of a stutter in my trigger finger if I am going for slow well aimed shots. Its a lot less noticeable in rapid fire obviously so I haven't really had any problems with it, but with slower press outs I tend to throw a shot more often than with shooting fast (probably due to the occasional trigger finger stutter as im slowly rolling to the rear).

It sounds like V4 kinda blends the transition in the trigger a little better (well at least for me) and shaves off a 1lb to boot. I found the guide on hkpro.com and changing out the spring doesn't look as hard as I thought it was going to be, so I'm gonna go ahead and order the light FPBS and play with it. If I don't like it, it seems easy enough to switch back.

Thank you guys for all the help, its much appreciated.

[John Ralston]

Sorry - I had my head somewhere it shouldn't have been! : )

[kennjen]

I agree whole-heartedly. I had Bill Springfield do one of his jobs on my first HK45C. It was just as light and sweet as my USPf Combat Competition.

~~ second time I touched a round off before getting fully lined up, I changed the mainspring back ~~

I hope you subscribe to the "press out" method. (Probably do, judging by the fact you are here) Nothing more embarrassing than landing a round near your foot.... That's exactly why I think light lem is ...well....too light. This combined with the latest trend in AIWB carry, makes me really stay away from light LEM.

I envy your USPf CC. I want one myself. I'm currently scheming to build a normal 9mm USPf with CC (match + light LEM) trigger as a range gun. Or I may get an 1911 ...or sig 239....or ...... Well..... USP with CC is one of the models higher on my list.

Sorry for the off topic.

[Shapap]

JodyH,

when you run the V2 are you still using only the pad of your trigger finger during the pull, or do you modify and use more? When I first started shooting the V2 I was throwing shots left, and some a little low...during dry fire sessions i noticed that if i use only the pad of my trigger finger like i do with 1911's and other guns in SA mode, my front sight moves a little at times...it just seems really inconsistent. Fast foward several range trips later I started using alot more trigger finger to counteract the heavier pull (I basically touch the very edge of the trigger with the first finger joint) and shooting it with more consistency and better results.

Am I just masking bad technique and need to learn to shoot the heavier trigger with the nail portion of my finger, or is it not really a big deal?

[JodyH]

JodyH,

when you run the V2 are you still using only the pad of your trigger finger during the pull, or do you modify and use more? When I first started shooting the V2 I was throwing shots left, and some a little low...during dry fire sessions i noticed that if i use only the pad of my trigger finger like i do with 1911's and other guns in SA mode, my front sight moves a little at times...it just seems really inconsistent. Fast foward several range trips later I started using alot more trigger finger to counteract the heavier pull (I basically touch the very edge of the trigger with the first finger joint) and shooting it with more consistency and better results.

Am I just masking bad technique and need to learn to shoot the heavier trigger with the nail portion of my finger, or is it not really a big deal?
I just shoot.
I honestly cannot tell you what part of my finger presses the trigger.
Press the trigger without disturbing the sights, whatever it takes to do that quickly and consistently is the right way to do it.

[Shapap]

Ok cool, Thank you!

[LSP972]

I hope you subscribe to the "press out" method. (Probably do, judging by the fact you are here) Nothing more embarrassing than landing a round near your foot.... That's exactly why I think light lem is ...well....too light. This combined with the latest trend in AIWB carry, makes me really stay away from light LEM.



Yup. My finger doesn't go near the trigger until I'm at "step 3"; hands coming together and starting the press-out. Both rounds went safely downrange, but if it had been for real, something would have gotten hit that I didn't intend to get hit. Can't have that.

I ended up selling my USPf CC. I shot it one time in a 3-gun match, where it excelled. That fiber optic front sight LEAPS out at you in bright sunlight. But since my range time is mainly used for my EDC piece practice, and bullseye practice, I pulled the CC out of the safe maybe twice in the year following that match. A pal wanted it bad, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

.

[Shapap]

Ok I installed the light firing pin block spring and the 12lb hammer spring (214300), and wow its so much nicer now. I haven't got to shoot it on the range yet, but so far with dry firing it feels a lot smoother and a huge step toward what I am wanting out of this pistol.

I've been reading through all of Toddg's P30 logs and noticed a section in there where he was talking about lubing/greasing some key points within the pistol which helped shave another pound or so off the trigger break. Anyone know what these key areas are? This would my holy grail point really. I like the forcefulness of the heavy return spring, but if I could get the breaking point to six pounds or just under I would be happier than a kid in a candy store. I don't have a trigger scale, but this still feels like i'm pretty close to that seven pound range, maybe a shade under, which I could train through...but a slightly lighter break would be ideal.

[HighSpeedBail]

I found the guide on hkpro.com and changing out the spring doesn't look as hard as I thought it was going to be, so I'm gonna go ahead and order the light FPBS and play with it. If I don't like it, it seems easy enough to switch back.




Any chance you have the link handy??

I've really enjoyed this threads. Thanks everyone for your contributions.

Ken