View Full Version : FBI dropping Gold Dot G2?
Tokarev
04-18-2018, 07:14 AM
A friend sent me a link to a thread on ar15.com about this. There's no link to a news article or anything. So far it is just a post from a guy who "heard a rumor."
Anyone have any real info one way or another? If true I don't imagine anyone will be terribly shocked. G2 does not appear to offer much of anything over regular Gold Dot and may actually be a little worse in some regards. We'll see I guess....
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Wayne Dobbs
04-18-2018, 07:45 AM
I would regard anything coming from Barfcom as the rankest form of vile heresy and proceed accordingly. I've always recommended a bath after visiting that hive of derp-ery.
Tokarev
04-18-2018, 08:13 AM
I would regard anything coming from Barfcom as the rankest form of vile heresy and proceed accordingly. I've always recommended a bath after visiting that hive of derp-ery.
You definitely have to separate the wheat from the chaff over there.
I wonder if the OP isn't getting confused by this:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/20/fbi-selects-hornady-critical-duty-ammo/
KhanRad
04-18-2018, 08:37 AM
Probably the Hornday adoption announcement for .40S&W. Speer has been having trouble engineering the G2 to work well in the .40 and .45, so not a viable .40 option for the FBI.
Beat Trash
04-18-2018, 08:41 AM
I'm under the impression that the FBI was/is transitioning over to 9mm pistols from their current 40 caliber guns. The American Riflemen link is referencing a new 40 cal duty load. I am assuming that the 40 cal load referenced in the article is for any remaining current 40 cal guns currently in their inventory and fielded? Just because the FBI is adopting a 40 cal Hornady Critical Duty load doesn't mean they're dropping the 9mm G2 as a duty round for their 9mm's. I'm sure that there might be some 40 cal guns still in their inventory that they would need a duty round for.
hufnagel
04-18-2018, 08:45 AM
I would regard anything coming from Barfcom as the rankest form of vile heresy and proceed accordingly. I've always recommended a bath after visiting that hive of derp-ery.
Stop sugar coating it, and tell us how you REALLY feel about the place. :D
TC215
04-18-2018, 10:56 AM
I'm under the impression that the FBI was/is transitioning over to 9mm pistols from their current 40 caliber guns. The American Riflemen link is referencing a new 40 cal duty load. I am assuming that the 40 cal load referenced in the article is for any remaining current 40 cal guns currently in their inventory and fielded? Just because the FBI is adopting a 40 cal Hornady Critical Duty load doesn't mean they're dropping the 9mm G2 as a duty round for their 9mm's. I'm sure that there might be some 40 cal guns still in their inventory that they would need a duty round for.
There are LOTS of .40's still around. There are only two agents at our local FBI office with 19M's/9mm's. One is a SWAT agent, and the other agent finally had to give up her old Sig, and it was replaced with a 19M.
I have to go out to their office this afternoon for a meeting, I will ask around.
There are LOTS of .40's still around. There are only two agents at our local FBI office with 19M's/9mm's. One is a SWAT agent, and the other agent finally had to give up her old Sig, and it was replaced with a 19M.
I have to go out to their office this afternoon for a meeting, I will ask around.
Due to budget, logistics and scale, the full transition to the 19M as an issue weapon will take a few years. There and many .40 and .45 caliber POWs in use and even if no new 40 POW are authorized they will be around for some time just like the currently grandfathered .45's.
John Hearne
04-18-2018, 01:23 PM
I was in a FBI Patrol Rifle Instructor class last week. Nothing is official yet but they have identified another load that outperforms the G2. IIRC, they are trying to finalize a contract before any announcements are made.
A friend sent me a link to a thread on ar15.com about this. There's no link to a news article or anything. So far it is just a post from a guy who "heard a rumor."
Anyone have any real info one way or another? If true I don't imagine anyone will be terribly shocked. G2 does not appear to offer much of anything over regular Gold Dot and may actually be a little worse in some regards. We'll see I guess....
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G2 is a much better performer than gold dot in several areas, the most important one being consistency of performance, I.e. extremely low standard deviation regardless of what intermediate barrier it passes through first.
John Hearne and I attended the FBI Patrol Rifle Instructor school a couple of weeks ago. The FBI guys said that they were about to announce a new 9mm duty round. They did not know what round it would be.
Tokarev
04-18-2018, 07:23 PM
G2 is a much better performer than gold dot in several areas, the most important one being consistency of performance, I.e. extremely low standard deviation regardless of what intermediate barrier it passes through first.Okay. Then now I really wonder what the FBI has found that betters it.
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5pins
04-18-2018, 08:37 PM
Wasn't the G2 development by Speer in conjunction with the FBI to meet their needs? Now, after two or so years, they found something "better". Or maybe realized it's not all that and a bag of chips.
Okay. Then now I really wonder what the FBI has found that betters it.
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An almost identical round from another manufacturer.
lyodbraun
04-18-2018, 09:30 PM
Probably the all new federal hydroshock deep ?? I sent two boxes of G2 back to speer because I had lots of them fail to expand thru denim, they replaced it with with regular 147gr Golddots ..
Wayne Dobbs
04-18-2018, 09:47 PM
A Hornady rep I saw this evening had a very large grin on his face when asked about the Bureau and new ammo. I'm guessing it will be 135 Critical Duty +P. Hornady has been converting agencies all over Texas lately and I think they've snagged some Fed contracts besides the FBI.
It is amazing how the web sniffs out news. It may often be half wrong, but there is often a kernel of truth in there somewhere. Remember the 320.
TC215
04-18-2018, 10:05 PM
I asked one of the FI’s at the local FBI office this afternoon, and was told what others have posted. There will be a change coming soon.
A Hornady rep I saw this evening had a very large grin on his face when asked about the Bureau and new ammo. I'm guessing it will be 135 Critical Duty +P. Hornady has been converting agencies all over Texas lately and I think they've snagged some Fed contracts besides the FBI.
If it's true, I'm glad the feebs finally saw things my way. ;)
Sadly, they aren't listening when it comes to shotguns.
Sigfan26
04-18-2018, 10:15 PM
A Hornady rep I saw this evening had a very large grin on his face when asked about the Bureau and new ammo. I'm guessing it will be 135 Critical Duty +P. Hornady has been converting agencies all over Texas lately and I think they've snagged some Fed contracts besides the FBI.
I question whether they could maintain the QC to hold an FBI contract. I know of at least one agency that returned a bunch of their 5.56 that wouldn’t go bang.
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Lyonsgrid
04-18-2018, 10:20 PM
A Hornady rep I saw this evening had a very large grin on his face when asked about the Bureau and new ammo. I'm guessing it will be 135 Critical Duty +P. Hornady has been converting agencies all over Texas lately and I think they've snagged some Fed contracts besides the FBI.
Yep, Hornady reps put this 135 +P round through the ringer down at Camp Beauregard, LA recently and it preformed very well. I can confirm the USMS is placing orders for this new round.
I question whether they could maintain the QC to hold an FBI contract. I know of at least one agency that returned a bunch of their 5.56 that wouldn’t go bang.
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Good point.
PearTree
04-18-2018, 11:26 PM
To say I am unimpressed with hornadys qc is an understatement. We issue the 135+p critical duty and I believe we are on the third lot of ammo due to various issues in the first two lots. Recent ois's do not inspire confidence either. So as always ymmv
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Backspin
04-19-2018, 01:11 AM
IF it’s Hornady, it’s not 135+p. It’ll be 124+p Critical Duty. The 124+p load was designed to meet the FBI protocol with both duty sized pistols AND short barreled guns (unlike 135+p). 124+p was made to consistently penetrate on the lower side (around 13.xx inches through a duty pistol at the workshop I attended), but it’s supposed to be consistent through all the barriers of the protocol. I guess that’s the compromise the engineers went with.
At the Hornady ballistic gel workshop, G2 was shot side by side with the Hornady 124+p and both performed just fine through a DUTY sized pistol (G2 tended to penetrate about an inch more than the Hornady stuff).
However, through a 3” barrel (Sig P938) the Hornady 124+p was more consistent and penetrated deeper than G2. G2 still made the minimum recommended penetration through heavy clothing and fell just short through auto glass.
So “better” is relative to what an agency wants the bullet to do. From what I’ve seen Speer G2 has been a consistent performer through duty pistols, but not so much through sub compact pistols (though sufficient in my opinion for ccw/off-duty carry).
Having attended 6 gel workshops in the past 2 years (and having seen the numbers from several more), I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no magical brand / line of bullets out there. I’ve seen reputable projectiles either under or over penetrate depending on the conditions. I’ve seen “good days” and “bad days” from the same projectile at different gel shoots.
While you want the most consistently performing bullet if you can help it, I became rather agnostic about what round was in my duty weapon during my time searching for my agency’s new duty load. Case in point, Oakland (California) PD did just fine with legacy 147 Gold Dots shortly after they transitioned to 9mm.
farscott
04-19-2018, 05:54 AM
To say I am unimpressed with hornadys qc is an understatement. We issue the 135+p critical duty and I believe we are on the third lot of ammo due to various issues in the first two lots. Recent ois's do not inspire confidence either. So as always ymmv
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May I ask what QC issues you have seen? I am shooting 135-grain +P on a regular basis, but my ammo consumption is no where near any agency nor have my shootings been "social". I have gone through about half a case in the last six months. The only issue I have seen so far is the gilding metal on some of the bullets is tarnished. Every round has fed and fired with no failures, and the round is very consistent for me. Guns have been P30, G17.3, and G26.3.
If it's true, I'm glad the feebs finally saw things my way. ;)
Sadly, they aren't listening when it comes to shotguns.
Yes I remember that exactly!
PearTree
04-19-2018, 10:41 AM
May I ask what QC issues you have seen? I am shooting 135-grain +P on a regular basis, but my ammo consumption is no where near any agency nor have my shootings been "social". I have gone through about half a case in the last six months. The only issue I have seen so far is the gilding metal on some of the bullets is tarnished. Every round has fed and fired with no failures, and the round is very consistent for me. Guns have been P30, G17.3, and G26.3.First lot we all had failures to feed due to oal being way to long, deemed out of spec by Hornady. Second lot we were told the bullets we're deemed defective by Hornady and needed to be returned to the factory. Now we are on the third lot so we shall see if these will work or not. Other agencies have all had the same problems with qc problems with Hornady, and have for years.
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Next thing you know we will be hearing that it turns out that shot placement is more important than the precise new wonder bullet one buys.
Go figure.
I question whether they could maintain the QC to hold an FBI contract. I know of at least one agency that returned a bunch of their 5.56 that wouldn’t go bang.
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Hornady has also had the opposite issue - locally TAP 5.56 is notorious for ND's while loading.
Randy Harris
04-19-2018, 01:16 PM
Next thing you know we will be hearing that it turns out that shot placement is more important than the precise new wonder bullet one buys.
Go figure.
Exactly.
Holes in hearts, spines and brains are holes in hearts spines and brains.....no matter what makes them. So less time spent worrying about ammo performance and more time spent working on human performance will get you much farther than a new "magic bullet" will.....
spinmove_
04-19-2018, 01:51 PM
I vaguely remember someone who occasionally haunts this forum saying something along the line of “pick one of the loads from the list, buy a case of it, and STOP worrying about ammo and work on getting more training and practice”...
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Sigfan26
04-19-2018, 02:50 PM
Exactly.
Holes in hearts, spines and brains are holes in hearts spines and brains.....no matter what makes them. So less time spent worrying about ammo performance and more time spent working on human performance will get you much farther than a new "magic bullet" will.....
The "Winning hearts and minds" principle.
Sherman A. House DDS
04-19-2018, 02:54 PM
Cool! I hope the G2’s go on sale. I’ll keep using them because they work in my gun(s) and work in practical applications.
civiliandefender.com
Exiledviking
04-19-2018, 03:22 PM
Hornady has also had the opposite issue - locally TAP 5.56 is notorious for ND's while loading.Was it any specific load?
Leroy Suggs
04-19-2018, 03:51 PM
Cool! I hope the G2’s go on sale. I’ll keep using them because they work in my gun(s) and work in practical applications.
civiliandefender.com
Bonefrog has them everyday for $24.00
CWM11B
04-19-2018, 04:27 PM
A Hornady rep I saw this evening had a very large grin on his face when asked about the Bureau and new ammo. I'm guessing it will be 135 Critical Duty +P. Hornady has been converting agencies all over Texas lately and I think they've snagged some Fed contracts besides the FBI.
If true, I hope they fixed it. About a year before I retired, the hornady rep for our area cold called me about this wonder bullet and begged to do a demo. I hosted a gel shoot for him and the distributor who was carrying it. I told him we had no intention of switching ammo, but would let him come. Lucky for him only about three other agencies came. The round failed MISERABLY. I'm talking nine inches of penetration for some shots, bullets yawing at 5 to 6 inches and exiting the side of the block, one went 90 degrees up and out of the block. We recovered most of the projectiles, as they were lying on the floor, intact with zero expansion. The rep was crestfallen. The disributor told me that based on what he had seen, he wouldn't want to be issued the round. The rep said he never had results like that. I doubt I will ever carry that CD round. My current ammo works (my former agency just dumped a guy with it) and I have plenty of it. No skin off my nose what the bureau chooses to issue.
Cool! I hope the G2’s go on sale. I’ll keep using them because they work in my gun(s) and work in practical applications.
civiliandefender.com
You know, I think you have made the key point of this thread. I withdraw my prior comments and urge all agencies to dump everything they have in order to generate funds to buy the new wonder round. Wonder rounds are not only important but demand immediate purchase.
SG Ammo can then buy up the excess no-longer-wonder-rounds cheaply and sell them to us for $300 per thousand or less.
Doc, I think you have a plan there.
Hambo
04-19-2018, 05:16 PM
Exactly. So less time spent worrying about ammo performance.
And even less time spent wondering what various agencies issue. Quality may rank lower than other factors when agencies buy gear.
Doc_Glock
04-19-2018, 05:41 PM
Hornady has also had the opposite issue - locally TAP 5.56 is notorious for ND's while loading.
That is terrifying!
Sherman A. House DDS
04-19-2018, 05:53 PM
You know, I think you have made the key point of this thread. I withdraw my prior comments and urge all agencies to dump everything they have in order to generate funds to buy the new wonder round. Wonder rounds are not only important but demand immediate purchase.
SG Ammo can then buy up the excess no-longer-wonder-rounds cheaply and sell them to us for $300 per thousand or less.
Doc, I think you have a plan there.
My need for high performance ammo isn’t outweighed by my Hebrew sensibilities. As long as it’s affordable (in case lots) flies straight and ignites reliably, I’m happy.
civiliandefender.com
blues
04-19-2018, 06:27 PM
My need for high performance ammo isn’t outweighed by my Hebrew sensibilities. As long as it’s affordable (in case lots) flies straight and ignites reliably, I’m happy.
civiliandefender.com
I think you mean "Scottish" sensibilities. ;)
I think you mean "Scottish" sensibilities. ;)
And some of us--like me--can claim they are indeed "Scottish" sensibilities. Although there is a potential difference. If the price is cheap enough, it does not stress me to buy retail . . . .
blues
04-19-2018, 06:40 PM
And some of us--like me--can claim they are indeed "Scottish" sensibilities. Although there is a potential difference. If the price is cheap enough, it does not stress me to buy retail . . . .
Oy vey. We need to talk.
(I don't mind either. Must be my mother's side's Sicilian influence. Though they'd probably just steal the stuff regardless of reasonable price. ;))
Disclaimer: This is meant as humor and not a denigration of any of the proud heritages mentioned. If you can't deal with it, file a retainer with Jeep.
El Cid
04-19-2018, 06:49 PM
Next thing you know we will be hearing that it turns out that shot placement is more important than the precise new wonder bullet one buys.
Go figure.
You know, I’ve worked with them a bunch. Never heard any of them say the ammo was more important than shot placement. But I am glad they test ammo and keep pushing the manufacturers to improve. No other agency has the ability or budget to do that.
GyroF-16
04-19-2018, 07:41 PM
You know, I’ve worked with them a bunch. Never heard any of them say the ammo was more important than shot placement. But I am glad they test ammo and keep pushing the manufacturers to improve. No other agency has the ability or budget to do that.
True dat.
spinmove_
04-20-2018, 06:34 AM
You know, I’ve worked with them a bunch. Never heard any of them say the ammo was more important than shot placement. But I am glad they test ammo and keep pushing the manufacturers to improve. No other agency has the ability or budget to do that.
Oh most definitely. Don’t stop improving because what we have now has been determined to be “good enough”. But some people seem to really get worked up about one load penetrating an extra inch here or getting slightly less deviation there. Bullets do funny things, but you can’t control them once they leave the muzzle. Be the best muzzle virgin bullet manager you can be!
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Oy vey. We need to talk.
(I don't mind either. Must be my mother's side's Sicilian influence. Though they'd probably just steal the stuff regardless of reasonable price. ;))
Disclaimer: This is meant as humor and not a denigration of any of the proud heritages mentioned. If you can't deal with it, file a retainer with Jeep.
I deny everything and I especially deny that I now have, or ever had, a sense of humor!
LockedBreech
04-20-2018, 06:51 PM
To say I am unimpressed with hornadys qc is an understatement. We issue the 135+p critical duty and I believe we are on the third lot of ammo due to various issues in the first two lots. Recent ois's do not inspire confidence either. So as always ymmv
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I agree. I understand anecdotes aren't data, but I've never been impressed by a box of Hornady ammo and I've purchased quite a few over the years. I will stick with ATK/Federal. I am very close to switching from 124 +P Gold Dot to 147-grain HST standard pressure purely for works-the-same-few-bucks-cheaper reasons, provided my guns will eat it.
I agree. I understand anecdotes aren't data, but I've never been impressed by a box of Hornady ammo and I've purchased quite a few over the years. I will stick with ATK/Federal. I am very close to switching from 124 +P Gold Dot to 147-grain HST standard pressure purely for works-the-same-few-bucks-cheaper reasons, provided my guns will eat it.
I am doing the same for precisely the same reason. Saving bucks for equal performance is a good thing.
I agree. I understand anecdotes aren't data, but I've never been impressed by a box of Hornady ammo and I've purchased quite a few over the years. I will stick with ATK/Federal. I am very close to switching from 124 +P Gold Dot to 147-grain HST standard pressure purely for works-the-same-few-bucks-cheaper reasons, provided my guns will eat it.
I’ve seen lost of .gov pistol rounds go downrange over the past 20 years and Federal / ATK / Speer have had the most consistent QC and the least issues.
Bucky
04-21-2018, 06:03 AM
Exactly.
Holes in hearts, spines and brains are holes in hearts spines and brains.....no matter what makes them. So less time spent worrying about ammo performance and more time spent working on human performance will get you much farther than a new "magic bullet" will.....
Why not have both? A well placed shot still needs to perform to a certain level of proficiency.
farscott
04-21-2018, 06:16 AM
All, thanks for the information. Looks like this is my last lot of Hornady 9x19, and I will go back to Federal and Speer.
Randy Harris
04-22-2018, 08:27 AM
Why not have both? A well placed shot still needs to perform to a certain level of proficiency.
The far bigger problem is getting people to deliver them where they need to go. The best ammo in the world isn’t going to make a trigger yanker shoot any better, yet well delivered ball ammo still kills mother “ f”ers dead....so which is MORE important? Ammo performance is rarely the problem...it’s normally shooter performance. I’m all for good quality ammo but arguing tiny percentage points of this vs that ammo is a waste of valuable training time. The better you can shoot , the better you can shoot. And 100 years ago they had far lower performance ammo than we have now ....yet all the guys killed with it are still dead.
My point is simply pick one that has acceptable performance and works reliably in your pistol and then get off the fucking internet and go train to the highest standard of marksmanship that you can attain. And stop worrying about which ammo is “best”.
The far bigger problem is getting people to deliver them where they need to go. The best ammo in the world isn’t going to make a trigger yanker shoot any better, yet well delivered ball ammo still kills mother “ f”ers dead....so which is MORE important? Ammo performance is rarely the problem...it’s normally shooter performance. I’m all for good quality ammo but arguing tiny percentage points of this vs that ammo is a waste of valuable training time. The better you can shoot , the better you can shoot. And 100 years ago they had far lower performance ammo than we have now ....yet all the guys killed with it are still dead.
My point is simply pick one that has acceptable performance and works reliably in your pistol and then get off the fucking internet and go train to the highest standard of marksmanship that you can attain. And stop worrying about which ammo is “best”.
This is disingenious as the two pursuits are not mutually exclusive.
Your sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from seeking knowledge in order to make fully informed decisions about what they're feeding their gun....this is counter to the purpose of this thread and the forum in general. Using the internet to tell people to "get off the fucking internet" as if they're doing something wrong is pretty, as well (hint, Randy you're on the internet wasting time instead of training, too).
KeeFus
04-22-2018, 09:18 AM
John Hearne and I attended the FBI Patrol Rifle Instructor school a couple of weeks ago. The FBI guys said that they were about to announce a new 9mm duty round. They did not know what round it would be.
So, my question is...where can we sign up for some of that FBI training? :D
JSGlock34
04-22-2018, 12:37 PM
It seems to me that the FBI search for better ammunition performance began when solid shot placement alone was not sufficient to end the fight.
So, my question is...where can we sign up for some of that FBI training? :D
I had the same question. It depend on the resources your local FBI office has. The actual Field Office (as opposed to local resident agency’s) should have a training coordinator who can direct you.
It seems to me that the FBI search for better ammunition performance began when solid shot placement alone was not sufficient to end the fight.
Yes....and no. Ammunition failure alone did not account for the tragedy in Miami. There were a Cascade of poor pre-fight decisions that have to be looked at as well. Some of that is 20-20 hindsight bias...but some isn't. And even if it's unfair to judge based on hindsight, you should absolutely learn from it. With the info the agents had at the time, there were decisions made about equipment and weapons deployment (some by the agents, some by management) that were less than optimal. The situation isn't unique to that incident, either. LE as a whole seems to have a corner on the complacency market.
blues
04-22-2018, 01:28 PM
Yes....and no. Ammunition failure alone did not account for the tragedy in Miami. There were a Cascade of poor pre-fight decisions that have to be looked at as well. Some of that is 20-20 hindsight bias...but some isn't. And even if it's unfair to judge based on hindsight, you should absolutely learn from it. With the info the agents had at the time, there were decisions made about equipment and weapons deployment (some by the agents, some by management) that were less than optimal. The situation isn't unique to that incident, either. LE as a whole seems to have a corner on the complacency market.
Reminds me of the ten or twelve deadly errors that every LEO should review from time to time.
This is disingenious as the two pursuits are not mutually exclusive.
Your sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from seeking knowledge in order to make fully informed decisions about what they're feeding their gun....this is counter to the purpose of this thread and the forum in general. Using the internet to tell people to "get off the fucking internet" as if they're doing something wrong is pretty, as well (hint, Randy you're on the internet wasting time instead of training, too).
I don't think Randy is saying it doesn't matter, just that maybe too much attention is paid to minutiae by individual shooters in this area. Folks whose job it is to be concerned about this have to dive deep, and we're all gun geeks here. Agency armorer's and ammo designers should always be striving to improve and field the best stuff. But none of us are ill served by any of the good high quality stuff from Federal, Winchester, Speer, Etc. A current Tier 1 guy told a coworker of mine, "You know what the real difference is between .40 and 9mm? Nothing. Shoot 'em in the face." Obviously a simplification, but the point is valid. Yes, they're not mutually exclusive, but how much we devote to this can be a problem.
Randy Harris
04-22-2018, 01:39 PM
This is disingenious as the two pursuits are not mutually exclusive.
Your sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from seeking knowledge in order to make fully informed decisions about what they're feeding their gun....this is counter to the purpose of this thread and the forum in general. Using the internet to tell people to "get off the fucking internet" as if they're doing something wrong is pretty, as well (hint, Randy you're on the internet wasting time instead of training, too).
My sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from wasting time looking for the perfect magic bullet at the expense of them spending that time improving personal performance. And to say that people don’t do just that, buy the magic bullet and then not train because they have the magic bullet is disengenious.
I actually posted that this morning while in a hotel room in Savannah Ga after shooting ( and finishing 3 rd in my division ) in a regional IDPA match Saturday....so I think I probably covered the doing something about becoming a better shooter for this weekend.....
Tried to edit...too late. Obviously you know all of the above TGS. My point was only seeking to clarify what I think Randy's point was. Not that it isn't important, just his perspective that individuals spend too much time on it. At least that's how I took it.
And to say that people don’t do just that, buy the magic bullet and then not train because they have the magic bullet is disengenious.
Well, I didn't say that, so....
I actually posted that this morning while in a hotel room in Savannah Ga after shooting ( and finishing 3 rd in my division ) in a regional IDPA match Saturday....so I think I probably covered the doing something about becoming a better shooter for this weekend.....
Congratulations, your mother must be very proud. Did you want a sticker? I've got a UPS store in the shopping center next to my hotel if you want me to overnight you a scratch'n'sniff bullshit sticker for being a good boy.
You do bring up a good point though.....the idea that someone can perform their due diligence in improving/maintaining their skills, while also "shootin' the shit" or learning on P-F.com.....
It's a novel idea, but obviously one that doesn't apply to anyone but you.
JSGlock34
04-22-2018, 03:06 PM
Yes....and no. Ammunition failure alone did not account for the tragedy in Miami.
Of course the ammunition was not the sole factor in the Miami shootout; however, perhaps when your tactical plan has failed, Murphy has stowed away in your bag, and the enemy is voting in force...that’s when you may need every last bit of performance you can squeeze out of your service ammunition.
In any case, I’m happy to benefit from the effort the FBI puts into researching ammunition performance. I’ve seen too many otherwise smart people rely on what at best can be described as “marketing” to choose their carry ammo.
My sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from wasting time looking for the perfect magic bullet at the expense of them spending that time improving personal performance. And to say that people don’t do just that, buy the magic bullet and then not train because they have the magic bullet is disengenious.
We have access to the internet anywhere where we have computers and wifi. We don't have the same access to places where we can practice shooting firearms.
There is nothing wrong with people wanting the best equipment, be it guns, holsters, or ammo.
The FBI is seen as the most important ammo contract because of the size of their agency and the amount of research they put in. A lot of other agencies piggyback on their choices.
Plus, when the FBI abandons a round there is a suspicion that there may be a problem with it.
I can speak from personal experience that the soft silicon plug of the G2 round seemed to rub against the front of the magazine of a S&W Shield and prevent it from feeding smoothly.
Bucky
04-22-2018, 05:13 PM
My sole purpose in this thread is to discourage people from wasting time looking for the perfect magic bullet at the expense of them spending that time improving personal performance. And to say that people don’t do just that, buy the magic bullet and then not train because they have the magic bullet is disengenious.
I actually posted that this morning while in a hotel room in Savannah Ga after shooting ( and finishing 3 rd in my division ) in a regional IDPA match Saturday....so I think I probably covered the doing something about becoming a better shooter for this weekend.....
I’ve got time to do both. I can’t be training all the time, so I spend a little of my down time here. I’ve shot essentially 3 matches this weekend, dual entry in steel challenge yesterday (Winning both divisions if that’s relevant) and USPSA today.
Winning (and I’m not just talking competition) is about getting everything right, or at least more right than your opponent. Add to that some faith / luck / whatever, because never forget, a lucky bullet kills just as well as a skillfully placed bullet.
Randy Harris
04-22-2018, 05:20 PM
I’ve got time to do both. I can’t be training all the time, so I spend a little of my down time here. I’ve shot essentially 3 matches this weekend, dual entry in steel challenge yesterday (Winning both divisions if that’s relevant) and USPSA today.
Winning (and I’m not just talking competition) is about getting everything right, or at least more right than your opponent. Add to that some faith / luck / whatever, because never forget, a lucky bullet kills just as well as a skillfully placed bullet.
My post early this AM was not at all directed at you personally. It was just a general “gear vs skill” generalization that just happened to get piggy backed into your particular post. Did not mean anything personal to you.
Congrats on the steel challenge wins!
Randy Harris
04-22-2018, 05:24 PM
Congratulations, your mother must be very proud.
She probably would be if she hadn’t died from cancer 10 years ago......
So, my question is...where can we sign up for some of that FBI training? :D
I had the same question. It depend on the resources your local FBI office has. The actual Field Office (as opposed to local resident agency’s) should have a training coordinator who can direct you.
The FBI out of Birmingham offers a lot of training. They had a female special agent who recently retired with well over 30 years of service. Her mentor told her one of the missions of the FBI was to train; so, she kept that alive, and it appears at least for now that they are carrying on with it.
KeeFus
04-22-2018, 06:08 PM
The FBI out of Birmingham offers a lot of training. They had a female special agent who recently retired with well over 30 years of service. Her mentor told her one of the missions of the FBI was to train; so, she kept that alive, and it appears at least for now that they are carrying on with it.
Gotcha. I need to attend an “instructor level” class over the next 2 years (before I retire) to maintain my NRA instructor credentials. I’m thinking that one of these classes would suffice.
Gotcha. I need to attend an “instructor level” class over the next 2 years (before I retire) to maintain my NRA instructor credentials. I’m thinking that one of these classes would suffice.
If you watch FLETC's page, they sometimes have free firearms instructor courses, but they have plenty of free Active Shooter and Tac Med instructor classes. Both are very well done.
The FBI out of Birmingham offers a lot of training. They had a female special agent who recently retired with well over 30 years of service. Her mentor told her one of the missions of the FBI was to train; so, she kept that alive, and it appears at least for now that they are carrying on with it.
Assistance to State and Local LE is one of the 7 core missions of the FBI. This includes training.
LittleLebowski
04-23-2018, 06:34 AM
This is a technical forum, so let's knock off the insult flinging.
ASH556
04-23-2018, 10:21 AM
.....
Zhukov
04-24-2018, 10:03 PM
<oops>
Exactly.
Holes in hearts, spines and brains are holes in hearts spines and brains.....no matter what makes them. So less time spent worrying about ammo performance and more time spent working on human performance will get you much farther than a new "magic bullet" will.....
There's just as much fallacy in saying, "the best gear/ammo/equipment in the world won't save you if you're not trained enough to use it" as there is in saying, "the best training in the world won't save you if you're equipment/ammo/gear isn't able to function/perform when needed." Do both. A better bullet is better.
Randy Harris
04-25-2018, 01:09 PM
There's just as much fallacy in saying, "the best gear/ammo/equipment in the world won't save you if you're not trained enough to use it" as there is in saying, "the best training in the world won't save you if you're equipment/ammo/gear isn't able to function/perform when needed." Do both. A better bullet is better.
A better bullet is only better if it hits the intended target.... and how MUCH better is even relevant? How do we quantify "better" between 2 bullets that expand to 1.5 times their initial diameter and penetrate to 13" ? Again the performance is so close that the determining factor far more times than not is how well they were delivered.
As I mentioned before...pick something with acceptable performance (ideally IWBA compliant) that work in YOUR gun, and is accurate in YOUR gun and then stop worrrying about it and train to be able to deliver them as fast and as accurately as you can. How can anyone disagree with that? At some point we are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Now if G2 (or whatever) does not feed in your gun then that decision makes itself...find something new. But if it functions reliably and is accurate enough for your intended purposes there is only so much a service caliber handgun bullet can do. Whether we like it or not the placement trumps the particulars of the bullet when handguns are involved. I'm not saying we should not use "good" ammo . I'm saying that I see far more people who cannot deliver them where they need to go than I see ammo that would not be effective if it got there.
Wayne Dobbs
04-25-2018, 02:11 PM
I think that if we were to quantify the factors leading to success in a defensive shooting, the ammo selected probably accounts for less than 5% of whether we succeed or fail. Things like mental conditioning, marksmanship, tactics, movement, cover, etc. are all more important. It's only when we have somebody that can use that ammo performance with guaranteed placement that ammo choices make significant differences.
5pins
04-25-2018, 06:05 PM
But since we are in an ammunition forum it makes more sense to talk about ammunition, and discuss tactics and such in a "tactics and such forum".
For half the year, my normal order of priority is obsessing over software skills, followed by picking hardware, followed by picking holsters, followed by ammo choice. Ammo being particularly boring, as in pick Gold Dot 124+P or 147 HST. In the summer, mu priority flips to obsessing over ammo, focusing on a bullet that will penetrate a bear’s skull, followed by what platform will launch it reliably, and then how do I carry that pistol/ammo combo.
El Cid
04-25-2018, 07:43 PM
The other thing people sometimes forget is budget. If a bullet is the same in terms of performance and costs a bit less, that’s a huge savings for a large agency.
perlslacker
04-25-2018, 07:49 PM
bringing this back around to Gold Dot G2s...
I've never been to a LE gel test seminar. I've only seen the homebrew gel tests that hobbyist gun nerds put on the Internet. And in those tests, Gold Dot G2s are found to be sorely lacking out of compact pistol barrels. Is there other data out there I've missed?
I should note that the forum darling (and my new favorite carry pistol) PX4CC has a barrel length roughly the same as a 1.0 M&P9c, so performance out of a subcompact pistol is relevant to many of us. It would certainly affect my decision to pick up some G2s on the cheap.
5pins
04-26-2018, 07:26 AM
If the mods here weren’t shit, they would have posted this days ago.
Also, let’s not take shots at other forums.
The mods here mean well.
.
John Hearne
04-26-2018, 08:50 PM
Apparently, the new approved offering is a the 135 gr +P Hornady Critical Defense.
Generally, there are at least two offerings in "duty ammo" on the contract. I suspect that the G2 will remain an option for those field offices who prefer it. I doubt the G2 will be "dropped" but there will be another option. My experience is that whichever offering is cheaper will be purchased.
https://t.e2ma.net/message/w0bmcb/knx81f
ETA: I think that Hornady has had a product code on the contract for a frangible load for at least a year. In case anyone cares.....
Backspin
04-27-2018, 06:00 AM
Well that's surprising. Hornady came out for a gel shoot last month and I'm pretty sure the rep said that 124+p was in the running for the FBI contract not 135. He said that the bureau wanted a load that performed well out of both duty and short length barrels, unlike G2 and especially 135+p Critical Duty.
TC215
04-27-2018, 08:47 AM
Apparently, the new approved offering is a the 135 gr +P Hornady Critical Defense.
Generally, there are at least two offerings in "duty ammo" on the contract. I suspect that the G2 will remain an option for those field offices who prefer it. I doubt the G2 will be "dropped" but there will be another option. My experience is that whichever offering is cheaper will be purchased.
https://t.e2ma.net/message/w0bmcb/knx81f
ETA: I think that Hornady has had a product code on the contract for a frangible load for at least a year. In case anyone cares.....
It is my understanding that the G2 will be totally dropped.
OlongJohnson
04-27-2018, 09:21 PM
I haven't personally shot any gel blocks or plasma sacks with it, but I've seen the 165gr Critical Defense load tune up the accuracy of a 96D most impressively, and heard the same reported for at least one other .40 pistol, though I don't know the model.
Trooper224
04-27-2018, 09:26 PM
It is my understanding that the G2 will be totally dropped.
That's a PR hit for Speer.
El Cid
04-28-2018, 09:36 AM
That's a PR hit for Speer.
Maybe a little bit it seems like the cycle of life. Before G2 they used Ranger 147gr. Before that they used regular 147gr Gold Dots. I’ve seen them go back and forth with GD’s and Ranger with 40 caliber as well. I chalk it up to ops normal.
Maybe a little bit it seems like the cycle of life. Before G2 they used Ranger 147gr. Before that they used regular 147gr Gold Dots. I’ve seen them go back and forth with GD’s and Ranger with 40 caliber as well. I chalk it up to ops normal.
Sure, except they just adopted the G2. The fact it's happening so quickly after adoption is what's suspicious and alarming. G2 is still so new that Speer is still pumping it out excusively for unfulfilled LE contracts at this point....they haven't even reached a point of saturation where they can sell it to the commercial market.
El Cid
04-28-2018, 10:19 AM
Sure, except they just adopted the G2. The fact it's happening so quickly after adoption is what's suspicious and alarming. G2 is still so new that Speer is still pumping it out excusively for unfulfilled LE contracts at this point....they haven't even reached a point of saturation where they can sell it to the commercial market.
No reason to be suspicious or alarmed. The contract was expiring. Nothing more. They started using it as early as 2014.
And I have seen G2 for sale to the public.
No reason to be suspicious or alarmed. The contract was expiring. Nothing more. They started using it as early as 2014.
When does it expire?
And I have seen G2 for sale to the public.
Contract rejects from the first batch? I haven't seen any current production G2 for sale, only the factory seconds from the initial defective batch.
El Cid
04-28-2018, 10:42 AM
When does it expire?
Contract rejects from the first batch? I haven't seen any current production G2 for sale, only the factory seconds from the initial defective batch.
I didn’t ask for details about when the contract will or did expire. I just asked why they were switching. They also said the alternate on the new contract is a Winchester 147gr. Not Ranger though. And the alternate can only be bought if the primary (CD 135+P) is unavailable. Offices can’t choose the Winchester over the Hornady.
Check Kiesler and Bonefrog Ammo for starters. I think Bonefrog was even posted in this thread. I haven’t seen the recalled stuff for sale in a year or more. I bought a couple cases of it since at $199 for 1,050 rounds it was cheaper than FMJ at the time. The recalled stuff had nickel colored primers. The new G2 has gold colored primers.
When does it expire?
Contract rejects from the first batch? I haven't seen any current production G2 for sale, only the factory seconds from the initial defective batch.
I’ve seen it on the shelf for sale as well - though usually only in 50 round boxes at police supply places like GT Distributors. They were in black commercial packaging.
I've seen .45ACP G2 on the shelf at GT Distributors, but no 9mm. I was previously unaware a loading besides 9mm existed.
Tokarev
04-28-2018, 11:18 AM
I've seen .45ACP G2 on the shelf at GT Distributors, but no 9mm. I was previously unaware a loading besides 9mm existed.There is a 40 S&W load available also.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
TC215
04-28-2018, 12:08 PM
I’ve seen 9mm G2 for sale commercially as well, and have bought some recently.
JSGlock34
04-28-2018, 12:17 PM
I've purchased G2 (9mm 147grain) commercially. Black box.
5pins
04-29-2018, 06:49 AM
It was my understanding that the FBI and Speer worked together in the development of this round. It seems odd to go through the effort of tailor making a new bullet just to have it beaten four years later by something that was already available.
It could be as simple as the contract is over and a new round won. Or, it could be a case of “we polished this turd as much as we could and it’s still a turd, so let’s find something new”.
perlslacker
04-29-2018, 08:20 AM
Contract rejects from the first batch? I haven't seen any current production G2 for sale, only the factory seconds from the initial defective batch.
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/products/9mm-147gr-speer-lawman-gdhp-54226 <----- are these contract rejects? How do you tell if they are?
El Cid
04-29-2018, 10:17 AM
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/products/9mm-147gr-speer-lawman-gdhp-54226 <----- are these contract rejects? How do you tell if they are?
I’ve posted a few times that the recalled ammo had nickel/silver colored primers. The new good ammo has gold colored primers.
The recalled ammo should also be in boxes like this - labeled as training only.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/Speer-LE-9mm-G2-Training-147gr-350rds_p_906.html
BigDaddy
05-02-2018, 08:31 AM
I don't think Randy is saying it doesn't matter, just that maybe too much attention is paid to minutiae by individual shooters in this area. Folks whose job it is to be concerned about this have to dive deep, and we're all gun geeks here. Agency armorer's and ammo designers should always be striving to improve and field the best stuff. But none of us are ill served by any of the good high quality stuff from Federal, Winchester, Speer, Etc. A current Tier 1 guy told a coworker of mine, "You know what the real difference is between .40 and 9mm? Nothing. Shoot 'em in the face." Obviously a simplification, but the point is valid. Yes, they're not mutually exclusive, but how much we devote to this can be a problem.
This was never better illustrated than by the shooting in Florida involving Jared Reston, a Sheriffs Deputy in Jacksonville. He's attempting to arrest a guy who then pulls out a G21 and shoots him in the mouth. Jared returns fire. Both are trading shots with major league calibers and both are taking hits neither of which are being stopped. Jared finally grabs the BG by the collar IRRC as the BG is closing in for the kill shot and shoots him in the head which ends the fight. Permanently. Point is he didn't need a 40 to do that, he could have accomplished the same thing with a 9. BTW, Jared now carries a G19. If you haven't heard about this (which most of you probably have), Google it, it's quite a story.
Default.mp3
05-02-2018, 09:28 PM
FWIW, it appear to be that the new Hornady round is not replacing G2, but merely supplementing it, and that the FBI had some sort of contract allotment overrun and cannot order any more Speer for the time being.
El Cid
05-03-2018, 06:18 PM
FWIW, it appear to be that the new Hornady round is not replacing G2, but merely supplementing it, and that the FBI had some sort of contract allotment overrun and cannot order any more Speer for the time being.
That doesn’t jive with what I was told but federal contracts are often an enigma.
Default.mp3
05-03-2018, 09:18 PM
That doesn’t jive with what I was told but federal contracts are often an enigma.FWIW, my information is based off of comments made by Steve Fisher:
When you go over you’re contract allotment with one maker and need more
It’s simple folks
G2speer
Hornady
Federal
All in the systemSource: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/1758802267499599/?comment_id=1759204920792667
The G2 is ultimately better, but as Steve Fisher said, contract issues/laws dictate certain things and the FBI ran over its contract last year with Speer for G2. It was taken off of the FBI contract last year. Hornady, Winchester, etc we’re still on it as they had not hit the ceiling on purchase. Winchester 147gr bonded is still on the contract this year. Because the contract was full we had to go open source and do three bids to be able to purchase the G2. The Critical duty will perform just fine for them, but the reasons for the change are not transparent to the public. In fact there are various factions in my agency that love the critical duty and others that love the G2.Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/1758802267499599/?comment_id=1759469967432829
JSGlock34
05-11-2018, 07:01 PM
Noticed that SOCOM was adopting Speer G2...
Soldier Systems: USSOCOM Small Arms Modernization Update (http://soldiersystems.net/2018/05/10/ussocom-small-arms-modernization-update/)
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/A8691CF9-1EE2-4545-BC9B-8E003F6AACBE.jpeg
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/5E3300FA-5631-4E9A-847D-87626DD024A8.jpeg
Unobtanium
05-12-2018, 06:03 AM
FWIW, it appear to be that the new Hornady round is not replacing G2, but merely supplementing it, and that the FBI had some sort of contract allotment overrun and cannot order any more Speer for the time being.
This is as I understand. The Feds always do this. The second fiddle always plays it up big, too, even if they never fulfill any orders, they like being proud of an allowed alternative.
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