Shotguns and acoustic traumas

[Unobtanium]

How does a shotgun compare to a 9mm or a 5.56 14.5" gun, indoors? According to the data I have, it is louder on the dB scale, but it also has a lower pressure. Does this matter? How damaging is it in comparison?

[Dagga Boy]

I have been in multiple shootings with both .45 pistols and 12ga. All sounded like dull pops due to audible exclusion.

That is on the self defense side. My wife was a professional bird hunting guide and spent a ton of time in the field with her herd of pointers and clients with a lot of shooting and no ear pro. She is basically deaf now without hearing aids and still has a hard time with hearing aids.

[GJM]

I find 14 inch shotguns, especially ported ones, to be very unpleasant to fire without ear pro. Unported 14 inch better, and 18 inch unported, better yet. Of course, if you are shooting a shotgun indoors without ear pro, the alternative must be worse.

[Duelist]

1 unprotected indoor .38 special discharge caused a cone of silence in the near side ear that lasted weeks. Whether it recovered at all or I adapted, I can't say. But the measurable hearing loss and tinnitus are permanent.

I do not hunt without ear pro. No animal is worth more damage than my life has already given. I keep electronic ear pro by my bed, too.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

1 unprotected indoor .38 special discharge caused a cone of silence in the near side ear that lasted weeks. Whether it recovered at all or I adapted, I can't say. But the measurable hearing loss and tinnitus are permanent.

I do not hunt without ear pro. No animal is worth more damage than my life has already given. I keep electronic ear pro by my bed, too.

This, I was on the receiving end of .45 ACP pistol going off inside a vehicle within about 12-18" of my head pointed in my direction (gunpowder on face). My ear will never be the same, tinnitus sucks a fat one for sure... immediately following I had balance issues for at least a couple weeks. Immediately following I could barely hear a thing, it was scary to say the least. Too bad HPA is a goner now...

[nalesq]

How does a shotgun compare to a 9mm or a 5.56 14.5" gun, indoors? According to the data I have, it is louder on the dB scale, but it also has a lower pressure. Does this matter? How damaging is it in comparison?

I have wondered about this too, but don’t know enough about how 5.56mm/9mm/12-GA might qualitatively differ from each other beyond the decibel level.

However, I do know that hearing loss is hastened by repeated exposure to damaging levels of sound. So due to the superior terminal effects of 12-GA buckshot, theoretically one would fire fewer times with the shotgun to neutralize a threat than with a pistol or even a rifle.

In this overall sense, even if the gauge were slightly louder than the pistol or rifle, firing it significantly less often would likely be less damaging to one’s hearing than firing more rounds out of a pistol or rifle to achieve the same outcome.


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[Unobtanium]

I have wondered about this too, but don’t know enough about how 5.56mm/9mm/12-GA might qualitatively differ from each other beyond the decibel level.

However, I do know that hearing loss is hastened by repeated exposure to damaging levels of sound. So due to the superior terminal effects of 12-GA buckshot, theoretically one would fire fewer times with the shotgun to neutralize a threat than with a pistol or even a rifle.

In this overall sense, even if the gauge were slightly louder than the pistol or rifle, firing it significantly less often would likely be less damaging to one’s hearing than firing more rounds out of a pistol or rifle to achieve the same outcome.


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Acoustic trauma is interesting. Firing at a rate of more rapid than 1rd/second in tests saw less damage over the course of say, nearly a magazine, than firing 4-5 shots, spaced over >1 second each. I read up quite a bit on acoustic traumas, and found that very interesting.
Further, if you suffer acoustic trauma, the least invasive treatment is aggressive oral steroid use ASAP, the most invasive, is a nitroglycerin drip. The goal is to prevent circulation cut-off to the cilia in the inner ear, which is what causes the hearing loss. Inflammation at the base of the cilia is what does this.

[nalesq]

Acoustic trauma is interesting. Firing at a rate of more rapid than 1rd/second in tests saw less damage over the course of say, nearly a magazine, than firing 4-5 shots, spaced over >1 second each. I read up quite a bit on acoustic traumas, and found that very interesting.
Further, if you suffer acoustic trauma, the least invasive treatment is aggressive oral steroid use ASAP, the most invasive, is a nitroglycerin drip. The goal is to prevent circulation cut-off to the cilia in the inner ear, which is what causes the hearing loss. Inflammation at the base of the cilia is what does this.

Fascinating!

So for treatment, it has to be steroids, like prednisone? Will NSAIDs not work well enough (as a similar least invasive treatment).


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[Unobtanium]

Fascinating!

So for treatment, it has to be steroids, like prednisone? Will NSAIDs not work well enough (as a similar least invasive treatment).


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I don't know what NSAIDs will do for this. I suspect they are better than nothing. I don't want to give advice outside of my field, though, and so I will simply say that if you suffer an acoustic trauma GO SEE THE AUDIOLOGIST! Most family MD's and internal medicine doctors are not going to be up to speed on best preserving your hearing and preventing permanent threshold shift.

[BN]

I have hearing loss, so this is interesting to me.

What difference does ammo breaking the sound barrier make. I like 147 9mm over 115 because it doesn't have that sharp crack. Also, I can hear the difference in .22 ammo, shooting sub sonic over high velocity.

I can shoot off my roofed back porch. Even with muffs, an AR 15 is pretty unpleasant. I don't shoot at indoor ranges.

[Nephrology]

Fascinating!

So for treatment, it has to be steroids, like prednisone? Will NSAIDs not work well enough (as a similar least invasive treatment).


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Thats the theory behind prednisone for tinnitus/hearing loss, but in reality it's poorly studied and the evidence that is out there isn't very good. It's basically better than nothing, maybe.

[Unobtanium]

Thats the theory behind prednisone for tinnitus/hearing loss, but in reality it's poorly studied and the evidence that is out there isn't very good. It's basically better than nothing, maybe.

My personal experience , backed by serial audiograms as well as subjective results, has made me a huge fan of it. I wish I had them still. I'd scan them in. 2 weeks post trauma, I had a 30ish db notch at 6khz. My family md would not proscribe the aggressive regimen I asked for, so I went to an audiologist who would, after no treatment for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks of aggressive steroid treatment, that had shrank to 15db. This was done by a professional audiologist in a sound chamber (or whatever you call that room).

My hearing has always sucked, as my parents didnt understand these things. A .357 shooting session without pro as a child wasnt a good idea. I got older, learned better, but things still happen, etc.

Ymmv kn the steroids, but I personally, as a case study of one, an a fan.

*obviously this is for acute situations, not chronic. I doubt in chronic situations it would do anything other than cause gi upset.

[Unobtanium]

I have hearing loss, so this is interesting to me.

What difference does ammo breaking the sound barrier make. I like 147 9mm over 115 because it doesn't have that sharp crack. Also, I can hear the difference in .22 ammo, shooting sub sonic over high velocity.

I can shoot off my roofed back porch. Even with muffs, an AR 15 is pretty unpleasant. I don't shoot at indoor ranges.

Double up. I use plugs plus headset. I now no longer find anything unpleasant.

[StraitR]

I always double up as well. SF plugs and Howard Leight's. I think it's especially important/effective indoors or when shooting any kind of long gun, which depending on the stock, can push the muff off the ear when mounting the gun.

[Unobtanium]

I always double up as well. SF plugs and Howard Leight's. I think it's especially important/effective indoors or when shooting any kind of long gun, which depending on the stock, can push the muff off the ear when mounting the gun.

My issue is that I'm cheap and dont have gel cups and wear eyepro. Also, training classes. Shooting inside vehicles next to guys with tank brakes on 10.3s.

[LOKNLOD]

My issue is that I'm cheap and dont have gel cups and wear eyepro. Also, training classes. Shooting inside vehicles next to guys with tank brakes on 10.3s.

Have you seen the NoiseFighters (https://www.noisefighters.com/product-page/sightlines) eyepro-cut gel cups for Howard Leights?

[Unobtanium]

Have you seen the NoiseFighters (https://www.noisefighters.com/product-page/sightlines) eyepro-cut gel cups for Howard Leights?

Maybe I'll buy some Howard leihts someday.

[Doc_Glock]

Why have I not heard about these before?! You’ve been holding out on us. :(

I have two shooting sessions with them and they are amazingly comfortable.
I wear electronic plugs and Howard Leight’s with those gel cups while shooting indoors.

[BigT]

My issue is that I'm cheap and dont have gel cups and wear eyepro. Also, training classes. Shooting inside vehicles next to guys with tank brakes on 10.3s.
Gel cups are cheaper than hearing aids. Think of it as a long term saving

[Unobtanium]

Gel cups are cheaper than hearing aids. Think of it as a long term saving

Foamies are cheaper than either, and do a ton more NRR.

[Drang]

Have you seen the NoiseFighters (https://www.noisefighters.com/product-page/sightlines) eyepro-cut gel cups for Howard Leights?

Where have these things been?!

[Drang]

Foamies are cheaper than either, and do a ton more NRR.

And doubling up is even better.

[Unobtanium]

And doubling up is even better.


Double up. I use plugs plus headset. I now no longer find anything unpleasant.

[LOKNLOD]

Why have I not heard about these before?! You’ve been holding out on us. :(

Sorry Tom. Don’t really have a report on them yet.

I’ll get three days in them this weekend, we’ll see how they do.

[overton]

Received the noisefighter gel cups today, but cant get them into my Sordins. [emoji17]

[4gallonbucket]

Get them. They're great. I wear them all the time now. I don't really even use the "notch" in the top of the gel cups for my eye pro. The gel cups seal around the arms well enough by themselves.

[Coyotesfan97]

I ordered a pair to throw on my HLs. They are on a shelf next to my bed. I pretty much double up when I shoot now. I always did when we did live fire exercise in the shoothouse with SBRs. Years of unprotected exposure to LSDDs and gas guns is costing me now.

Riding around with barking Malinois and Dutch Shepherds right behind me for 14 years hasn’t helped either.

[Drang]

Have you seen the NoiseFighters (https://www.noisefighters.com/product-page/sightlines) eyepro-cut gel cups for Howard Leights?

Available for Howard Leight ear pro at Amazon, which means P-F gets a cut.
Noisefighters Gel Ear Pads with Relief Cuts for Glasses, for Howard Leight Earmuffs - - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Noisefighters-Relief-Glasses-Howard-Earmuffs/dp/B079LFMPBG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524530194&sr=8-1&keywords=noisefighter&dpID=41CAPLIt6dL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)

[LOKNLOD]

Available for Howard Leight ear pro at Amazon, which means P-F gets a cut.
Noisefighters Gel Ear Pads with Relief Cuts for Glasses, for Howard Leight Earmuffs - - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Noisefighters-Relief-Glasses-Howard-Earmuffs/dp/B079LFMPBG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524530194&sr=8-1&keywords=noisefighter&dpID=41CAPLIt6dL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)

Good idea!!!

[mmc45414]

Available for Howard Leight ear pro at Amazon, which means P-F gets a cut.
Noisefighters Gel Ear Pads with Relief Cuts for Glasses, for Howard Leight Earmuffs - - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Noisefighters-Relief-Glasses-Howard-Earmuffs/dp/B079LFMPBG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524530194&sr=8-1&keywords=noisefighter&dpID=41CAPLIt6dL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
Inbound...

[Robinson]

I have hearing loss, so this is interesting to me.

What difference does ammo breaking the sound barrier make. I like 147 9mm over 115 because it doesn't have that sharp crack. Also, I can hear the difference in .22 ammo, shooting sub sonic over high velocity.

I can shoot off my roofed back porch. Even with muffs, an AR 15 is pretty unpleasant. I don't shoot at indoor ranges.

I also have serious hearing loss and tinnitus (drives me nuts). I arrived at my current handgun ammo selection by comparing .45ACP, supersonic 9mm, and subsonic 9mm while shooting at an indoor range. For me they rate in the order I listed them from loudest down. So I shoot subsonic 9mm exclusively. The sonic crack of lighter 9mm rounds is louder, and the boom of the .45 is louder still. So the supersonic crack is a factor, but for me it's certainly not the only factor.

For earpro I always double up when shooting indoors. The muffs I use are Peltor ProTac with the optional gel seals. Quite comfortable, and they are available in 21dB and 25dB NRR versions. The 21dB NRR model is great for outdoor shooting and I can wear either of them all day with no discomfort. I also keep a pair by each gun located in my house. I use the 25dB NRR model for indoor shooting (over plugs) or if I attend a class.

The only rifle I have left is a suppressed 300 BLK bolt gun. So far I only shoot supersonic ammo. It is probably the most quiet center fire long gun I can think of, other than using subsonics.

If I had protected my ears when I was younger my life would be much more pleasant now, and being a shooter would be more enjoyable.

[Coyotesfan97]

I got mine in the mail yesterday and I just put them on. They are pretty slick!

[Mjolnir]

Late to the thread.

I worked in Sound Quality at Ford Motor Company and one thing we had to know in that field was Human Response (or how a human hears).

The shotgun will have lower frequency content which will not be as bad as say a .223 Carbine or 9mm pistol.

It is, however, loud enough to cause hearing damage.

Hearing loss typically occurs in the higher frequency ranges (above 5kHz which is a very sensitive area for humans, btw).

Protect your ears!


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[Balisong]

The Noisefighter gel pads (https://amzn.to/2Km3lGc) for the HL ear pro I ordered last week arrived yesterday. They are fantastic and when combined with the HL Impact Sports (https://amzn.to/2FofXsn) make for the absolute best electronic ear pro you can get for ~$90.

Here's a photo of the gel pads compared to the OEM pads and the other aftermarket gels pads -- L to R: OEM, the other gel pads, Noisefigthers:

25814

25815

I also put a set on some inexpensive passive HL L0F ear pro (https://amzn.to/2Kk2fL5) that I use with power tools and/or to make the world go away and leave me alone with my tinnitus. :) They are great there too. :cool:

I'm WAY late to this party, but these seem like they'd be incredible. I've never been able to wear ear muffs cuz of how uncomfortable they are with eye pro. I have custom made ear plugs that work very well, but I wouldn't mind also using muffs if they're comfortable enough.

So the questions are, now that these have been out for a year+, are you guys still loving them? Any issues? And is the HL Impact Sports model you linked still the best way to go with these?
Thanks for helping me spend my money guys.

[Tactical Black Belt]

I keep a pair of ear muffs hung between the barrel and magazine extension on my bedside 870. The configurations of my home will give me ample time to put them on before any home intruder can reach the bedroom.

[Sammy1]

I have been in multiple shootings with both .45 pistols and 12ga. All sounded like dull pops due to audible exclusion.

This, with 12 gauge and 357 sig inside a small room. Not saying it doesn't hurt your hearing but exclusion is real.

[TheRoland]

This, with 12 gauge and 357 sig inside a small room. Not saying it doesn't hurt your hearing but exclusion is real.

I know someone says it every time exclusion is brought up, and I know you're not saying otherwise, but the damage happens anyway. When the dude stabs you, you're bleeding now even if it didn't hurt.

[Unobtanium]

I have hearing loss, so this is interesting to me.

What difference does ammo breaking the sound barrier make. I like 147 9mm over 115 because it doesn't have that sharp crack. Also, I can hear the difference in .22 ammo, shooting sub sonic over high velocity.

I can shoot off my roofed back porch. Even with muffs, an AR 15 is pretty unpleasant. I don't shoot at indoor ranges.

Well, I've shot my suppressed M4 without ear-pro before (Do as I say not do...)

The port pop on that is in the mid 140's.
Bullet signature is 150dB +-5ish

The port pop bothered me more than the bullet flight by far. I say this because I had a switchblock on that gun, and when I turned it to suppressed it mitigated about 3dB worth of port-pop, so they say, and it was notably more comfy. That said, bullet flight isn't silent! I shot this video to show what down-range suppressed gunfire sounds like, and interestingly, the camera (S8 phone, leaned against a paint-can sitting in a metal chair) was shaken each time the bullet passed (roughly 2ft up and left of the phone.). There's some pressure wave/sound, there!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjfm4d0DcDg