Isoceles and two handed strong arm shooting alignment

[Packy]

Do you align your shooting arm from pistol to web of your hand, bones of forearm When shooting two handed grip isoceles?
If not how do you extend your strong hand when doing 2 handed isoceles grip? Is is more chicken wing or not?

[YVK]

I don't. For me aligning it that way is a wrong priority. It may happen more or less by itself, depending on a gun, but not as a primary goal.

[Peally]

Nope, not really possible in an isosceles stance and it provides no advantage.

My rough grip after taking support hand off:

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It's a dainty pussy hand with a giant 45 but you get the idea. It isn't straight in line with the arm at all. Keep in mind I'm left eye dominant so you may look a little less extreme than this, but at no point should you care if your arm is aligned with the barrel.

[JAD]

I think Tom Givens teaches bore/bone alignment but that’s just how the hand meets the gun; if I then bend my wrist to get into iso that’s ok. If I crawl the grip (clocking it around to put more finger on the trigger) I don’t address the trigger as well. I’ve tried, because I have small hands and more finger should benefit me with large guns. It don’t.

[Peally]

I think Tom Givens teaches bore/bone alignment but that’s just how the hand meets the gun; if I then bend my wrist to get into iso that’s ok. If I crawl the grip (clocking it around to put more finger on the trigger) I don’t address the trigger as well. I’ve tried, because I have small hands and more finger should benefit me with large guns. It don’t.

Pretty much yeah, your grip is right behind the gun but your wrist is bent.

[HCM]

Depends on the hand and the gun.

[taadski]

This thread makes for an interesting analogue to GJM's Tactical Performance Center class review thread. In particular the bits about how strong hand alignment can effect the ability to get the "meat" of the weak hand behind the gun. To answer your question though, by definition, in the pure isosceles "stance", the bones of your forearms are not going to be in direct alignment with the pistol. The pistol rather will be closer to splitting the angle made by your arms.

Some googling yielded some images of these couple of jamokes for reference:


https://i.imgur.com/BPY2JaK.jpg


This is not to take away from the fact that there are some very good shooters who utilize some sort of modified isosceles in which the bend in the arms are less equal and the pistol is more aligned with the strong arm. But it's not something you usually see amongst the elite.


t

[Packy]

This thread makes for an interesting analogue to GJM's Tactical Performance Center class review thread. In particular the bits about how strong hand alignment can effect the ability to get the "meat" of the weak hand behind the gun. To answer your question though, by definition, in the pure isosceles "stance", the bones of your forearms are not going to be in direct alignment with the pistol. The pistol rather will be closer to splitting the angle made by your arms.

Some googling yielded some images of these couple of jamokes for reference:


https://i.imgur.com/BPY2JaK.jpg


This is not to take away from the fact that there are some very good shooters who utilize some sort of modified isosceles in which the bend in the arms are less equal and the pistol is more aligned with the strong arm. But it's not something you usually see amongst the elite.


tThank you for sharing. Sometimes shooting and experimenting what will work better deviates from what is natural and proper. Love this group.

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[NH Shooter]

Having spent over a decade shooting Bullseye competitively, the alignment shown in the OP is the proper "Bullseye grip." But as others have commented, this alignment does not happen with two-handed isosceles. When drawing with the intent to shoot strong hand only, I do find myself favoring the old Bullseye grip as it really does help with recoil control and keeping the sights aligned.

For those of us cursed with small hands and/or short fingers, grip geometry and "length of pull" to the trigger face are critical for a proper Bullseye grip. Due to its pronounced 2-stage trigger pull (long, light first stage, short second stage with short reset) and grip ergonomics, the PPQ has been the only double-stack I can maintain a Bullseye grip on through a string of fire.

[Gio]

This thread makes for an interesting analogue to GJM's Tactical Performance Center class review thread. In particular the bits about how strong hand alignment can effect the ability to get the "meat" of the weak hand behind the gun. To answer your question though, by definition, in the pure isosceles "stance", the bones of your forearms are not going to be in direct alignment with the pistol. The pistol rather will be closer to splitting the angle made by your arms.

This is not to take away from the fact that there are some very good shooters who utilize some sort of modified isosceles in which the bend in the arms are less equal and the pistol is more aligned with the strong arm. But it's not something you usually see amongst the elite.

This is spot on. In general if you grip the gun with the slide oriented directly back toward your strong hand wrist like that in an isosceles stance, the recoil will not go straight up and down and it will be harder to track and reset your front sight for follow up shots.

[Surf]

FWIW, I agree with the comments here. My reply in a similar thread. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22340-Gun-and-arm-alignment&p=507778&viewfull=1#post507778)There is additional info in that thread.

[taadski]

Good stuff in there. Figured it made sense to drag it over.


I think I may have replied to something similar in the past but it does depend on the type of shooting. Arm / bone alignment in bullseye or even one handed shooting and alignment might be more optimal. IMO with the modern iso type of stances, bone alignment is not ideal. A more neutral alignment of the pistol inline with the dominant eye is IMO a better option than worrying about aligning with the arm bone. When I had a more Chapman like position many years ago, alignment was more prevalent.

For my smaller hand size and preferred trigger finger placement I am nowhere near bone alignment with my preferred grip. If I keep a rigid bone alignment then I have to use muscle tension (bad tension) to torque the pistol straight. This does not as easily create a repeatable track of the pistol through the recoil phase.

As for the tac turtle, don't like it, don't teach it. This IMO is a poor upper body position and also creates what I consider "bad muscular tension" and is something I really try to get shooters out of doing. Once a shooter understands how to more effectively place the weight of the body into the pistol instead of attempting to use what I consider "bad muscle tension" the results are pretty much 100% positive for the shooter.

Many think that Recoil management should come from tension of the upper upper torso as in lats, traps, shoulders and neck. When in reality many who think this use what I consider to be excessive amounts of muscular tension that creates other negative results. There is good tension and bad tension. Bad tension will often end up in the grip, but more so in the trigger finger and that equates to poorer results on target.

Shooters may also think that more bend or forward bias at the waist is correct. While not exactly incorrect it is not optimal if you already have a good bias forward at the waist. The shooter should keep the same upright body position and correct bend at the waist no matter how fast the string of fire. Increased recoil management does not come from increased upper body muscle tension (tac turtle or similar) nor does it come from increasing the bend or forward weight bias at the waist. The increase in forward weight bias and added mass behind the weapon to manage recoil comes from increasing the bend in the leading legs knee. A slight increase in bend or angle at the leading knee puts much greater amounts of body mass forward into the weapon. This allows for the upper body to remain in a more correct position at all times.

Yes we might get more "into the gun" as pace increases, but IMO, if your body position / tension looks dramatically different depending on your strings of fire and how rapid you might be shooting, there is probably a lot of room for improvement.

[Cory]

FWIW, I agree with the comments here. My reply in a similar thread. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22340-Gun-and-arm-alignment&p=507778&viewfull=1#post507778)There is additional info in that thread.

That was an awesome post, and explained a few things folks had suggestes to me that I didn't quite grasp.

I don't care if SME titles are gone, you remain an obvious one.

-Cory

[FrankinCA]

Depends on the hand and the gun.

This. I tried that (align wrist/forearm to bore). Not possible. I have medium sized hands that adapt to the platform

[Surf]

That was an awesome post, and explained a few things folks had suggestes to me that I didn't quite grasp.

I don't care if SME titles are gone, you remain an obvious one.

-CoryThanks, Cory. Never felt comfortable with the SME title, but wished to help Todd and this site, still do. I did vote to do away with the title, but I very much appreciate your compliment which that means a lot to me. Sorry back on track fellas!

[Jay Cunningham]

Having spent over a decade shooting Bullseye competitively, the alignment shown in the OP is the proper "Bullseye grip."

It's become apparent that the majority of what has been (and still commonly is) taught about practical shooting is rooted firmly in bullseye shooting methodology.


gun aligned with the forearm
so-called "surprise break" technique
staging the trigger
crystal clear, razor sharp focus on the front sight
pinned trigger/deliberate trigger reset after recoil
lack of grip emphasis/recoil control methodology
breath control


There is nothing wrong with the discipline of bullseye shooting, but it is woefully deficient as the basis for practical shooting. It's important to understand where they diverge and where they converge. Bullseye shooting can inform aspects of practical shooting, but should not be the basis.

[Robinson]

It's become apparent that the majority of what has been (and still commonly is) taught about practical shooting is rooted firmly in bullseye shooting methodology.


gun aligned with the forearm
so-called "surprise break" technique
staging the trigger
crystal clear, razor sharp focus on the front sight
pinned trigger/deliberate trigger reset after recoil
lack of grip emphasis/recoil control methodology
breath control


There is nothing wrong with the discipline of bullseye shooting, but it is woefully deficient as the basis for practical shooting. It's important to understand where they diverge and where they converge. Bullseye shooting can inform aspects of practical shooting, but should not be the basis.

I employed some of those back when I still shot from a Weaver stance too, except for staging and pinning the trigger. And the Weaver was designed to deal with recoil differently. It's funny how unnatural it seems when I try it nowadays.

[GJM]

I would say the following — while that might be a good bullseye list, it doesn’t cut it at all for action shooting. You want to hold the pistol firmly, utilizing optimal skeletal alignment so as to reduce leverage (meaning muzzle raise), make the gun, especially polymer ones, function reliably, have the gun return predictably shot to shot, and allow the most aggressive trigger pull with the least displacement of the sights.

[Doc_Glock]

https://i.imgur.com/BPY2JaK.jpg



I know this thread is about arm position, but I am most impressed with how upright and comfortable the stance of these folks is.

[GJM]

I know this thread is about arm position, but I am most impressed with how upright and comfortable the stance of these folks is.


What makes you think it is comfortable? Gripping the pistol is a very strenuous thing.

[Doc_Glock]

What makes you think it is comfortable? Gripping the pistol is a very strenuous thing.

These shooters do not look at all uncomfortable. No grimace, no hunkering down behind the gun. They of course are gripping the shit out of the gun I am sure.

Your comment misses my main point: They are upright and bring the gun up high to eye level. Something I personally am bad at.

[GJM]

These shooters do not look at all uncomfortable. No grimace, no hunkering down behind the gun. They of course are gripping the shit out of the gun I am sure.

Your comment misses my main point: They are upright and bring the gun up high to eye level. Something I personally am bad at.

I would say pretty upright, which is much closer to fully upright than a tactical turtle! Gripping just short of trembling hard. If we had a side profile view of them, I think they would look very much like Ron Avery in the TPC logo.

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[taadski]

Ron, as a coach, has always been pretty adamant about shooters having as little tension as possible in the upper body. With the exception of "from the elbows forward".

And yeah, pretty similar to the other national champions pictured. An upright and relaxed (:p) upper torso.


https://i.imgur.com/GikO1FDl.jpg

[GJM]

They actually do a drill at TPC where they demo the difference between tension to the elbows, and then relaxed thru the core to the knees, then tense to the ground vs tension everywhere. It quickly becomes obvious that tension in your shoulders and core makes recoil worse than staying relaxed.

[Doc_Glock]

Ron, as a coach, has always been pretty adamant about shooters having as little tension as possible in the upper body. With the exception of "from the elbows forward".

And yeah, pretty similar to the other national champions pictured. An upright and relaxed (:p) upper torso.


https://i.imgur.com/GikO1FDl.jpg

These dudes all hold their gun much higher than I do. I think that is a called a clue. I should say they hold their head a higher. They bring the gun up to an upright head while I bring my neck more to the gun.

[Jay Cunningham]

Shooting is visual. Bringing the gun up so that you can look at the sights through the center of your eyeballs makes for better shooting. Hunching down (turtling) forces you to look through the tops of your eyeballs.

It also tends to move you off balance and makes you carry extra tension in your shoulders - and makes breathing more difficult.

[Packy]

Thanks for all the replies.
Finally understood this question from 2 years ago.

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