Trump: Welfare Recipients Must Work If Able Bodied

[blues]

Finally a step (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/10/us/trump-work-requirements-assistance-programs.html) in the right direction.

Now, to get some public works programs initiated a la WPA to ensure that able bodied folks who cannot find work in the private sector will at least pitch in and do something to repay the taxpayer footing the bill.

I have been railing about this since 1977. Is it possible that "meaningful" reform is coming? (Probably too much to hope for.)

[CWM11B]

It will be decried as "racist" in 3,2,1...
Plus, if a WPA like project is formed under Trump, he will (again) be compared to Hitler for creating "forced labor camps". At this point, it seems whatever he does, it's not good enough for some, or antichrist level for others.

[blues]

It will be decried as "racist" in 3,2,1...
Plus, if a WPA like project is formed under Trump, he will (again) be compared to Hitler for creating "forced labor camps". At this point, it seems whatever he does, it's not good enough for some, or antichrist level for others.

I don't have the numbers, so I'm guessing...but I'm pretty sure that there are millions of white citizens on public assistance, (food stamps, medicaid, family assistance), so that it should be pretty clear that it's not a matter of race but of sound social and economic policy.

But what do I know? (And for those unwilling to acknowledge the truth...that's their problem, imho. We've allowed baseless claims to steer policy for too long in this and other arenas.)

[Hambo]

I have no problem with this in theory. I have little confidence with it in practice. That's probably because no matter how cool it sounds, it's just another federal program. Does anybody remember CETA? It started before my time, so I don't know exactly how the money worked. What I do remember is city departments that really wanted to ditch the remaining CETA hires because they were worthless employees.

[CWM11B]

blues, missed the exit window to add I agree with this concept 100%, and have been screaming it almost as long as you have. I'm well aware there are far more whites on the dole than blacks, but this, like so many other issues that are not about race either, will become all about it in the narrative. Gonna be bowing out of GD now, carry on.

[41magfan]

I'd love to be wrong, but I think we've passed the tipping point on entitlements. Too many votes rely on something from Uncle Sammy to backtrack on the ingrained, institutional welfare system.

But, that was the whole point wasn't it?

[RevolverRob]

Well, one thing the article got wrong and Trump got right. Food stamps and Medicaid are welfare programs and drawing a distinction between them is really unnecessary in a political sense. I believe all Americans, who have worked a job and paid taxes, are entitled to claim their welfare benefits in times of need. Primarily, because we pay the taxes that are effectively "insurance" for those instances. But folks who claim benefits without working and paying taxes, shouldn't be allowed to claim them.

Regardless of what the non-partisan talking head said. There are hundreds of thousands of able-bodied people claiming some form of welfare benefits. There are complete scam systems with folks moving states every 2-3 years to claim benefits as their benefits in one state expire. And its these folks, whether they make up the minority or majority of welfare recipients that are the issue with the welfare system.

[Stephanie B]

Well, one thing the article got wrong and Trump got right. Food stamps and Medicaid are welfare programs and drawing a distinction between them is really unnecessary in a political sense. I believe all Americans, who have worked a job and paid taxes, are entitled to claim their welfare benefits in times of need. Primarily, because we pay the taxes that are effectively "insurance" for those instances. But folks who claim benefits without working and paying taxes, shouldn't be allowed to claim them.

Regardless of what the non-partisan talking head said. There are hundreds of thousands of able-bodied people claiming some form of welfare benefits. There are complete scam systems with folks moving states every 2-3 years to claim benefits as their benefits in one state expire. And its these folks, whether they make up the minority or majority of welfare recipients that are the issue with the welfare system.

And as for the companies that, in essence, use SNAP to subsidize their paying low wages, what of them?

[NEPAKevin]

I don't have the numbers, so I'm guessing...but I'm pretty sure that there are millions of white citizens on public assistance, (food stamps, medicaid, family assistance)...



I work a block away from the county Welfare, ahem, I mean Assistance Office and there are plenty of pale faces walking in and out who are likely not employees there as the people who work there that get oil changes here drive Neons and Aveos with PA plates, not Lincoln Navigators and Lexuses with NY and Jersey tags.

[blues]

blues, missed the exit window to add I agree with this concept 100%, and have been screaming it almost as long as you have. I'm well aware there are far more whites on the dole than blacks, but this, like so many other issues that are not about race either, will become all about it in the narrative. Gonna be bowing out of GD now, carry on.

I hear ya, brother. Hope you didn't think I was presuming to lecture...'cause that's not my style. I was just stating what I would consider the obvious...and yet which so many find so (objectionable) hard to understand. While it's no longer surprising, it continues to be disconcerting.

Deliberate ignorance. We should take the same view of it, (in our lives and in policy making), as the courts do.

[Casual Friday]

And as for the companies that, in essence, use SNAP to subsidize their paying low wages, what of them?

Nothing. They're not being forced to work there. If they want to make more of themselves go do it. Fast food and retail is low skill, non physically demanding labor and doesn't necessitate a living wage. I've worked both.

[RevolverRob]

And as for the companies that, in essence, use SNAP to subsidize their paying low wages, what of them?

Predatory businesses shouldn’t be supported or worked for. Unfortunately, Americans love Walmart and McDs...

I don’t actually have much sympathy, having gone through it myself. As a kid, my family was poor, really poor. And as a Millenial who came of adult “professional” working age in 2008...I didn’t fare much better. My wife and I each worked 2-3 jobs in retail to pay our bills and live. We had a roommate. We drove old cars and on my day off, I would fix them, when the broke. We once worked 68-days straight without a day off.

And I never claimed welfare benefits. Though I certainly could have (and maybe should have, given some of the debt I put on myself in this time).

You either pony up or move. And again, during hard times? Claim the benefits. But they aren’t a permanent life line. I’ve seen a lot of piss-poor work ethic which is generated by entitlement. I have virtually zero sympathy for it.

But the companies you’re talking about? They should be slammed hard.

I’m also unconvinced that minimum wage should be converted to a living wage. The $15/hr minimum wage in Seattle had a gnarly effect on small businesses and reduced the number of jobs. Precisely what was predicted, because if you squeeze one side things have to move.

[RoyGBiv]

Who is going to provide child care?

And..... Racist!

Will it happen? I'll be betting No.
Look at the 2018 and 2020 Swing States... If they like it, maybe. Otherwise... Racist!

[Stephanie B]

And as for the companies that, in essence, use SNAP to subsidize their paying low wages, what of them?

Nothing. They're not being forced to work there. If they want to make more of themselves go do it. Fast food and retail is low skill, non physically demanding labor and doesn't necessitate a living wage. I've worked both.
Not my point. The people working those jobs and collecting SNAP would, I gather, meet Trump's requirement to be working.

My larger point is that there are companies that are essentially benefiting from SNAP as an unofficial subsidy for the piss-poor wages that they are paying. The, in once instance, second-generation billionaires who are the owners are profiting from welfare.

But not a word of umbrage against them. Just against the workers.

Curious.

[Robinson]

They tried this before when I was a lot younger, and it was shot down as being considered "forced labor". Sigh...

[Casual Friday]

Not my point. The people working those jobs and collecting SNAP would, I gather, meet Trump's requirement to be working.

It would appear they meet the requirement.


My larger point is that there are companies that are essentially benefiting from SNAP as an unofficial subsidy for the piss-poor wages that they are paying. The, in once instance, second-generation billionaires who are the owners are profiting from welfare.

But not a word of umbrage against them. Just against the workers.

Curious.

I've been around career welfare recipients my whole life. The one thing that the majority of them have in common is they have no desire to work for a living, and when they do have a job, it's always low skill, low pay, next to zero responsibility jobs. They remain unmarried so the woman can keep getting max benefits for the umpteen kids they've pumped out over the years. They show up to the local churches at Christmas time asking for presents for their kids, on their way home from the Indian reservation buying their monthly haul of cheap booze and Marlboro's. The narrative of the poor hard working family just struggling to survive doesn't play with folks who've been around the game and seen how it's played.

The corporate side of it is a separate issue, and isn't limited to just the Walmart's or other right leaning corporations.

[XXXsilverXXX]

When I was a small child my family ended up claiming food stamps which we were barely qualified for because we were not in a specific demographic. It didn’t last long but my dad a Vietnam vet was the primary bread winner and couldn’t work anymore, we lost the house, car, and just about everything. My mom was qualified for a lot of different work, but she could never find anything. Being a millennial as well and having graduated high school in 09, then university in 2014, while working 60+ hours a week in a gift shop. I truly will never ever take welfare, not that it isn’t made to get you back on your feet but it defeats a lot of those who end up on it. I do wonder though if the work those people are going to be placed into or allowed to work in would be better then some of the work I’ve done in the past year.
I kinda see it from a different point though as I’ve worked with a lot of people who never had a opportunity to amount to anything, and instead of welfare like we have it why not something more in the way of training people in these situations for specialized jobs that no one else wants... They still have to want to not game the system but atleast some will take it over just the endless cycle.

[wvincent]

Has the 9th Circus issued an injunction for this yet?
You know, like every other EO or policy the President has tried to enact that might have an impact on the "protected classes"?

[Hambo]

Hell yeah! My second paying job at age 15 (and first one where I was technically old enough to be employed) was as a janitor/maintenance helper for my school district. Myself, my brother, and two other local poor kids all worked there and were paid via CETA (it was in the early 80s and right about the time CETA was replaced with JTPA, but everyone still referred to it as CETA). I remember that we had mandatory (and paid!) training sessions once a week or so where we were taught about things like bank accounts, how to write checks and balance a checkbook, make budgets, etc. It was a great experience and I was very thankful for it.

Having said that, I'm sure there were as many failures as successes with the program.

ETA: My family also got "government cheese". :) Decades later I had friends that were familiar with the term, but thought is was just an euphemism and not a literal block of "cheese". Nope, it was real (or as real as processed cheese can be). :)

25329

WTF? Nobody told me about CETA or JTPA in high school. :(

We did get the cheese when my dad's employer moved out of state, and it was kind of a motherfucker to figure out what to do with a giant cheese brick. IIRC there was also an option for butter, which was more awesome than the cheese. My dad could have qualified for food stamps at that time but he refused to apply for them.

[RevolverRob]

The, in once instance, second-generation billionaires who are the owners are profiting from welfare.

But not a word of umbrage against them. Just against the workers.

Curious.

Oh trust me, I have plenty of words of umbrage against certain billionaires in our country. The Waltons rank high on my shit list and if I were a socialist who believed in taking people's money, I'd start right there. Why Arkansas ranks 45th out of 50 states, ranking 49th in health care, 42nd in education, 40th in economy, 41st in opportunity, and 47th in crime - when it currently is home to 3 of the 15 richest people in the US (that's 20% of the richest people in the country!) - remains a mystery to me. A mystery that can only be explained by greed and entitlement.

Is it the Walton's job to make Arkansas great? No. I'm not saying it is their job. But each of them has 50 billion bucks in the bank and you'd think that they'd be interested in not living in a shit hole. That is, after all, what the great industrialists did for our country - why we have nice museums and architecture, public works, etc. There is (or was) a moral obligation to give something back after you've made it - and the Waltons have never given fuck all. And I think they are pieces of shit for it.

Mistreating their employees is just another example of them as terrible people.

And its why I don't support Walmart.

[RoyGBiv]

But not a word of umbrage against them. Just against the workers.

Curious.

I have more angst towards the politicians/lobbyists/PAC's/etc that established the system... Of course many of those are the fat cats to whom you refer.
But my anger is towards the people who allow this system to exist, who gave it life, not necessarily the folks that take advantage of it.
If my competitor takes advantage of a legal "subsidy", my employees might be out of work if I try to complete based on an un-subsidized cost of goods/services.

[JohnO]

I work a block away from the county Welfare, ahem, I mean Assistance Office and there are plenty of pale faces walking in and out who are likely not employees there as the people who work there that get oil changes here drive Neons and Aveos with PA plates, not Lincoln Navigators and Lexuses with NY and Jersey tags.

I was in my local Costco picking up a few items. In line at the registers I notice the couple in line ahead of me. Two shopping carts full to the top and there were plenty of expensive slabs of New York strip and rib eye steaks. They appeared to be Eastern European by the accent I was hearing. The guy had a fleece with some sort of company logo so I figure he has a job. Boy was I surprised when the EBT card came out to pay for all their stuff! It sure is nice to live high off the hog when someone else is paying for it.

Another time at Costco I watched a guy pay with an EBT card. I was headed out right behind him. I didn't know you could drive a big new fancy Mercedes and have suckers pay for your food.

Plus I love how our folks in government removed the stigma of having to pass food stamps. Now everyone has an inconspicuous EBT card. The casual observer figures they are paying with their own money.

[blues]

I was in my local Costco picking up a few items. In line at the registers I notice the couple in line ahead of me. Two shopping carts full to the top and there were plenty of expensive slabs of New York strip and rib eye steaks. They appeared to be Eastern European by the accent I was hearing. The guy had a fleece with some sort of company logo so I figure he has a job. Boy was I surprised when the EBT card came out to pay for all their stuff! It sure is nice to live high off the hog when someone else is paying for it.

Another time at Costco I watched a guy pay with an EBT card. I was headed out right behind him. I didn't know you could drive a big new fancy Mercedes and have suckers pay for your food.

Plus I love how our folks in government removed the stigma of having to pass food stamps. Now everyone has an inconspicuous EBT card. The casual observer figures they are paying with their own money.

In a similar light bulb moment...back in Brooklyn on an investigation I went into this apartment occupied by a (resident alien) subject of investigation and it was filled wall to wall with high end electronics the likes of which I'd never seen. It was like a stereophile's dream come true.

I asked the guy, who was purportedly on the balls of his ass how he could afford such high end gear. He told me that he doesn't pay for it, he just files for bankruptcy...and then told me it was the American way. I didn't know whether to shit or go blind.

On my first government job for the Social Security Administration, I was told by a Spanish speaking claimant who looked like a power lifter that he couldn't work because he was disabled...though what the disability was wasn't clear. He had only a few years of school, had no employment history, never bothered to learn English and told me that we "had to" give it to him as it was his "right". When I asked if it was the obligation of others to support him, he unashamedly said yes.

I got in trouble when I asked him if I got this straight: "You've never worked. Never gone to school. Never learned English and yet need to be on disability. So clear this up for me, what can't you do now that you were able to do before?"

It got a little heated after that and I was sent to the corner to face the wall by my supervisor.

(And that's when I stopped being a recent college grad liberal.)

[NEPAKevin]

ETA: My family also got "government cheese". :) Decades later I had friends that were familiar with the term, but thought is was just an euphemism and not a literal block of "cheese". Nope, it was real (or as real as processed cheese can be). :)

25329

One of the saddest things I ever heard of was that a little girl was beaten to death over a government cheese sandwich.

(http://www.poconorecord.com/article/19990326/News/303269995) The story in the paper didn't mention that detail but IIRC that was what one of the girls in the office who knew Ashley said.

[willie]

And then there are some who scam the government for non legit VA disability benefits.

[Frank R]

It all goes back to the government. If it continues to exist, in its present form, little will change. It will continue to get worse.

[Sensei]

Not my point. The people working those jobs and collecting SNAP would, I gather, meet Trump's requirement to be working.

My larger point is that there are companies that are essentially benefiting from SNAP as an unofficial subsidy for the piss-poor wages that they are paying. The, in once instance, second-generation billionaires who are the owners are profiting from welfare.

But not a word of umbrage against them. Just against the workers.

Curious.

Yes, government subsidies create market distortion. There is nothing surprising about that. This is especially true when it is central planners in the federal government trying to steer the ship from afar. The answer is to gradually get the federal government out of the welfare business.

[farscott]

I am not surprised that there is a lot of conflict about public assistance and work because I am totally conflicted about it. My morals, my compassion, and my financial sense are all in conflict. Here is how my (not very interesting) internal monologue goes.

1) In the past, society made no attempt to guarantee people lived well. The line says, "pursuit of happiness", which does not imply a guarantee of happiness. People starved in the USA -- literally died from not having enough food to eat.

2) We have made a decision that watching grandma starve is not what we want to see, so we established safety nets.

3) There are people who will take advantage of opportunities, so there will be people who take advantage of getting stuff for not working -- or paying less knowing there is a safety net for their employees.

4) 2) and 3) conflict, but I still do not want to see grandma starve. And the vast majority of people who get the aid need the aid.

5) The system will always be gamed, but it looks like more than 80% aid goes to people who need it. But if more people game it, it will collapse (see federal debt).

6) If the people need it, why are they driving Navigators? How are they paying for the gas and insurance on that vehicle while not being able to afford food? See comment on gaming the system.

7) See 5).

The biggest difference I see among people is that some look for how things should be while others look at how things are. And neither is happy because nothing is 100%.

TL;DR: USA is the worst place -- except for everywhere else.

[Stephanie B]

Oh trust me, I have plenty of words of umbrage against certain billionaires in our country. The Waltons rank high on my shit list and if I were a socialist who believed in taking people's money, I'd start right there. Why Arkansas ranks 45th out of 50 states, ranking 49th in health care, 42nd in education, 40th in economy, 41st in opportunity, and 47th in crime - when it currently is home to 3 of the 15 richest people in the US (that's 20% of the richest people in the country!) - remains a mystery to me. A mystery that can only be explained by greed and entitlement.

Is it the Walton's job to make Arkansas great? No. I'm not saying it is their job. But each of them has 50 billion bucks in the bank and you'd think that they'd be interested in not living in a shit hole. That is, after all, what the great industrialists did for our country - why we have nice museums and architecture, public works, etc. There is (or was) a moral obligation to give something back after you've made it - and the Waltons have never given fuck all. And I think they are pieces of shit for it.

Mistreating their employees is just another example of them as terrible people.

And its why I don't support Walmart.

The first two libraries I remember using were Carnegie libraries. On the other hand, in St. Louis, the owner of the football team there (who is married to a Walton), relocated his team because the city wouldn’t build him a new stadium.

Cleveland, a city with some of the shittier schools in the nation, spent a third of billion nearly 20 years ago to build a new football stadium.

Rich folks are just as addicted to government benefits.


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[RoyGBiv]

I am not surprised that there is a lot of conflict about public assistance and work because I am totally conflicted about it. My morals, my compassion, and my financial sense are all in conflict. Here is how my (not very interesting) internal monologue goes.

1) In the past, society made no attempt to guarantee people lived well. The line says, "pursuit of happiness", which does not imply a guarantee of happiness. People starved in the USA -- literally died from not having enough food to eat.

2) We have made a decision that watching grandma starve is not what we want to see, so we established safety nets.

3) There are people who will take advantage of opportunities, so there will be people who take advantage of getting stuff for not working -- or paying less knowing there is a safety net for their employees.

4) 2) and 3) conflict, but I still do not want to see grandma starve. And the vast majority of people who get the aid need the aid.

5) The system will always be gamed, but it looks like more than 80% aid goes to people who need it. But if more people game it, it will collapse (see federal debt).

6) If the people need it, why are they driving Navigators? How are they paying for the gas and insurance on that vehicle while not being able to afford food? See comment on gaming the system.

7) See 5).

The biggest difference I see among people is that some look for how things should be while others look at how things are. And neither is happy because nothing is 100%.

TL;DR: USA is the worst place -- except for everywhere else.

Government is not a charity. "Welfare" is charity.

Which would get people from welfare to independence faster and with greater compassion.. ?
-- Government programs that force a one size fits all plan and removes most incentives for local involvement and participation.
-- A true "charitable organization" approach that involves local people helping neighbors

It's easy to take advantage of a system when only a far away bureaucrat is watching vs having to look your neighbor in the eye and ask for help, or, being able to look your neighbor in the eye and gain an understanding of their individual circumstances and help them in a more personalized, individual, constructive way.

Only a moron (or government) could have reasoned that our current system would be a solution to poverty.
Instead, it's created a permanent welfare class.

That said... I have no idea how to unwind it...

[Chance]

The aim, Trump aides said on the call, is to prod federal and state officials to take a tougher stance with aid recipients — millions of whom currently receive exemptions from existing work requirements because they are in training programs, provide care for relatives or volunteer their labor.

People in training programs could definitely warrant an exemption from work requirements. Same for folks caring for elderly and infirm relatives.

But "volunteer their labor"? I'm going to work under the assumption there are legitimate instances where one might want to volunteer their labor rather than work a paying job. Could someone provide an example?

[TAZ]

Unwinding the current purpose built system will require decades to achieve. Should anyone wish it, that is. I wish it was possible to rip the band aid off, but crime would spike exponentially if that were to happen. IMO though, not a soul in power wants to dismantle a system that promotes government dependence and government/power growth. It’s why the system is set up as it is.

Should we decide to change things. The first thing that needs to happen is that the state entities that defraud these federal systems must be squished. No more free $$. States pay up front and submit supporting documents for every single penny. All SSN’s verified and claims 100% audited before federal payments are sent. That will kick some of the high level fraud out and even force the states to do a better job of verifying beneficiaries.

That’s all great and good, but what next. Without jobs that can pick up the slack, no amount of welfare reforms are going to actually help. No jobs and no welfare = criminal enterprises galore. So we need to generate jobs that these folks can go to. That means immigration reform to stem the slave trade. That means incentivizing US citizen employment vs Chinese or Vietnam or India manufacturing. That means more aggressive tax reforms.

Assuming you can ram all that home, which you won’t cause not a soul wants it, then you can start whittling away at the welfare class. No GED no benefits. No raises for kids EVER. Then go to no HS diploma no benefits. Then go to no college or no job no benefits. The goal should be to turn the ENTIRE welfare system into unemployment insurance that individuals and their employers fund. Not the tax payer.

Good luck though. That would lead folks to the realization that they don’t really need multi billionaire elected officials lording over them. We can’t have that. How would the Kennedy’s and Feinsteins and Schumer’s and McCains ever get wealthy????

[Sensei]

The first two libraries I remember using were Carnegie libraries. On the other hand, in St. Louis, the owner of the football team there (who is married to a Walton), relocated his team because the city wouldn’t build him a new stadium.

Cleveland, a city with some of the shittier schools in the nation, spent a third of billion nearly 20 years ago to build a new football stadium.

Rich folks are just as addicted to government benefits.


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You seem to be conflating very different concepts. This thread is about entitlements given by the federal government to private entities (individual citizens in this case) for nothing in return. What you are describing are local municipalities engaged in a business relationship for services being rendered. The fact that cities like Cleveland suck at negotiating or value NFL stadiums more than public schools should not surprise anyone. However, this is not a government benefit; its a business transaction because the government gets something in return. The NFL team gets public money and or tax breaks to build a stadium. The government gets in return a broadening of the tax base, improved local economy, a place for its citizens worship on Sundays, a platform from which its role models can protest the country, etc. If the local government did not see adequate value in that arrangement, then they can renegotiate the contract when its terms expire. However, this is no more a “government benefit” than a municipality contracting with a paving company to provide a public sidewalk.

If you want examples of rich folks getting government benefits, then look no further than Tesla, Solendra, and most of the other boondoggle from the Obama Era. In those cases, non-viable private business were propped up by politicians largely for ideological reasons - like the poor person getting food stamps.

[Stephanie B]

The few times I've looked into it, I've not seen any financial benefit for having a pro sports team. In the case of Cleveland, some pretty damn valuable lakefront real estate was used to put up a statium that sees maybe a dozen events a year. It's a fricking scam that benefits the rich guys who want to play at being the owners of a pro team.

I suppose we could also get into a discussion about the no-bid contracts that enriched Dick Cheney's companies when he was VP or the ways that Team Trump has been grifting his presidency. But what's the point?

[Trigger]

Seems like Davy Crockett’s speech to Congress, “Not yours to give” is appropriate here. The whole idea of public coffer welfare does not sit well with me. Private source is better. Since a government is, by fundamental nature, force, I object to that same force used to collect and distribute welfare. Fair or not, needed or not.

http://hushmoney.org/Davy_Crockett_Farmer_Bunce.htm

http://radicalreference.info/node/1496

There is some historical uncertainty regarding the accuracy and content of the speech. I tried to link to an accurate source, and to some of the background.

[TAZ]

The few times I've looked into it, I've not seen any financial benefit for having a pro sports team. In the case of Cleveland, some pretty damn valuable lakefront real estate was used to put up a statium that sees maybe a dozen events a year. It's a fricking scam that benefits the rich guys who want to play at being the owners of a pro team.

I suppose we could also get into a discussion about the no-bid contracts that enriched Dick Cheney's companies when he was VP or the ways that Team Trump has been grifting his presidency. But what's the point?

There is very little if any long term benefit to having a professional team in your city. Short term there is some benefit in keeping construction workers employed, but that’s about it. The teams do not generate jobs for the locals as people pretend they will. The high end professional jobs are generally relocations from wherever the team comes from. The rest are low wage temp jobs, especially if the venue is too specific. Maybe some tax benefit from hotel booking, but again small and meaningless generally. Property values also tend to tank crime will also fester eventually in the area. It’s a bad idea, but cities sure seem to like it. The kickbacks must sure be nice.

The whole graft in government is nothing new or unexpected. From Cheney, to the Clinton foundation, all the way back trough dozens of administrations. Irrelevant if party affiliation it’s the universal constant. Part of the very serious problem created by the professional politician class we seem to want to propagate. It’s not going to diminish till the cycle of professional politician is broken. Don’t hold your breath. You see the people who have driven us to within a micron of the cliff edge MUST be left there to save us. Don’t you know nothing?!

[RevolverRob]

The few times I've looked into it, I've not seen any financial benefit for having a pro sports team. In the case of Cleveland, some pretty damn valuable lakefront real estate was used to put up a statium that sees maybe a dozen events a year. It's a fricking scam that benefits the rich guys who want to play at being the owners of a pro team.

I suppose we could also get into a discussion about the no-bid contracts that enriched Dick Cheney's companies when he was VP or the ways that Team Trump has been grifting his presidency. But what's the point?

There are rarely financial benefits for any sporting venue. This is why I was adamantly opposed to the City of Austin offering subsidies to the building of the Circuit of the Americas race track. And then opposed to the state of Texas offering 250 million for it as well...

And low and behold - https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a27316/budget-problems-could-kill-f1-at-circuit-of-the-americas/ and https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2016/03/23/cota-completes-majorfunding-amid-acquisition.html

COTA - 81 million bucks in the hole and likely soon will default on its bond holder loans and the city and state will have lost the total investment as it gets sold off to the highest bidder.

This is my shocked face -> :rolleyes:

Billionaires loving taking advantage of governments and governments at all scales are stupid enough to fall for it. Or, worse, complicit in it, hoping they too get rich.

[Drang]

Same for folks caring for elderly and infirm relatives.

Who, in many places, can now be required to join a union.
The "Purple People Beaters" of the SEIU, of course.