Kid's Sports

[rob_s]

I'm sure many here have extensive experience with kid's sports. I'm looking for a little feedback.

Last year we put our older girl in "recreational" softball, 8 & under. it was practice on Tuesday night, game on Thursday night, game on Saturday. it was coach-pitch and the whole no score thing. She loved it. I was a little annoyed as I had kind of expected one practice during the week and one game on Saturday, and I'd rather us be home for family dinner than eating from tupperware in the grass.

This year we signed up for 10 & under recreational, which is kid pitch and they keep score. Schedule is about the same, but they start later so we *could* eat together at home.

Couple of weeks ago the wife signed us up for a "travel" 10 & under team, which only "travels" within the county but that still means up to an hour each way to games for us. They will practice two nights a week (unsure as to times) and "tournament" every weekend with games basically all day Saturday and into Sunday if they win. This "league" also overlaps rec a bit so we now practice from 6-7 Tuesday and Thursday with travel then practice and game on those same nights with rec.

I really don't see how people do it. We're not a layaround family and we are always out doing stuff, enjoying much of what S Florida has to offer, etc. Now it appears that the whole family will need to stop what we're doing all to revolve around softball. We are just getting started and I'm already rather aggravated, but I'm by no means crazy enough to let that get me stuck in the tar baby of volunteering to help. I also hear that the parents and coaches can be pretty intense, which I'm not interested in participating in or frankly being around as I don't have the best history of my own behavior around these kinds of people.

Tomorrow is our first travel tournament, and we also have a rec game. So we have Rec at 9 AM at the park 20 min from our house, and then travel at 2 PM, 3:30 PM, and 6:30 PM at a park 45 minutes from the house, and if the kids do ok we get to go back to that same park Sunday at 8:30 AM.

I don't see how people commit to this. Anyone with experience have any advice?

[Casual Friday]

I have friends who have done that very thing for YEARS, with multiple sports with multiple kids. It practically makes it year round, baseball, wrestling, football, rodeo. For some people they make it their life and it seems to suit them, but I couldn't. My buddy is like a 4th generation farmer. He works like 80 hours a week, and does the all weekend travel thing for sports and equestrian stuff. He's my age, 38, and he looks 55. Never home, food on the go all the time.

I'm thankful that my kids are into Jiu Jitsu. Yeah it's 4 days a week, 3 during the week and 1 on Saturday morning, but the days coincide with days I train there so it works out. We're home by 730 pm so it doesn't affect our ability to eat dinner at home.

Sports parents are assholes in general, the particular sport is irrelevant. They couldn't go pro so they live vicariously through their kids. My 11 year old daughter took 2nd place at a NAGA tournament and the 3rd place Dad accused her of cheating because she hit a Z choke. According to him, it was cheating because the gym they train at hadn't taught them that submission or how to defend it. The NAGA official actually laughed at this lunatic.

[JohnO]

4 kids here. Get used to it is all I can say.

Over the years:
Vocal Jazz
Voice Coach
Softball
Soccer
Baseball
Lacrosse
Rugby
Boy Scouts
Police Cadets
Martial Arts
Recitals & Plays

Sometimes it took a strategy meeting to figure out who was taking who and if it was possible to get everyone there and picked up on time. Carpooling with friends can save the day.
I'm down to one at home. The day will come when you wish you still were running them around.

[orionz06]

In those cases the kids sports run the family. Everyone I know who has kids active as described is 110% committed to the activities.

[ACP230]

From what I understand, travel hockey is even worse.

[Dagga Boy]

This has been my life for the last 6 years. Full house travel club volleyball, rec volleyball till 13, and school. We give my daughter July off, otherwise it is 11 months a year and consumes our lives. There is something awesome about watching your kid play in the ESPN center in Orlando in the largest tournament in the world. It is something you get used to. It is horrifically expensive along with time consuming. The benefits....really prepares your kid to what the work world is like, builds discipline, and at the club and expensive travel levels drugs are not part of the culture nor are typical kid shenanigans. You simply give your life up for theirs. Shooting competitively...you are done. I look at it as an investment in putting my kid in a culture that is the last place with rules, discipline, accountability, consequences, punishment, real trophy’s and real competition, stress, pressure, and a place where you can buy shirts that say “Suck it up Buttercup”. The last bastion of coaches running girls till they puke. You want to build tough kids in a snowflake world...hard core club sports.
Also, if you want to remotely think about a college scholarship....this is where recruiters now look. Serious kids, with serious family structure and support. Recruiters can look at hundreds of kids at a club event at the same time instead of one or two at a high school game.
So.......this comes down to your level of dedication. It comes down to a contract with your kid (at the better clubs...your kid is also signing a contract commitment and expected to live up to it, where quitting has expensive ramifications) that they will commit to. It is a huge sacrifice, but you get one shot at forming your future adult and this is one of the few places where you can mold some toughness and grit.

[trailrunner]

Meh. Your schedule sounds pretty tame compared to some of the type-A schedules in the DC area. When my girls were young, were always on the go. To be honest, I didn't mind it. Looking back, I couldn't maintain that pace now, but when I was younger and we were in the thick of it, we had some fun family time.

A couple of bits of advice:

- Don't push your kids. Sounds silly, but a lot of parents do. I always told my girls that they didn't have to do sports or any other activity. It was 100 percent their choice. Once they committed to a season, I wanted them to finish it, but after that, it was always their choice. The only exception to this is that my wife wanted them to learn how to swim and be good swimmers. She considers that a basic life skill.

- Keep it very low key. If they're good and they like it, fine. But don't live through them. Again, sounds silly, but I saw a lot of parents live through their kids. After the very first soccer game I coached at the kindergarten level, we were walking back to the car. I heard a boy ask his mom if they could go to McDonald's or get ice cream or something. She told him no, because they did not win the game. True story.

- I was very lucky that my girls were mediocre and were not good enough for travel. Travel soccer is expensive. Teams hire coaches and trainers, and uniforms and camps and everything adds up. Every weekend there are games or tournaments within a couple hours drive. Besides overtaking your weekend, the expense of hotels add up. Again, if you and the kids like it, that's great.

- You said that you didn't want to volunteer. I volunteered, and it was the best thing I did. For a while I coached two soccer teams. I figured that I had an obligation, and I didn't want to be a freeloader parent. But most importantly, I didn't want some jerk being their coach, and I had a ton of fun with the girls. When one of my girls tried basketball, she wound up with a psycho coach - just a nutcase. He abused the refs, and wasn't good with the girls. He should have been banned from the league because of the way he treated refs, but the league was weak and didn't want to cause trouble. Finally the parents on the team revolted and would not let him near the team. One of the moms asked me to coach the remainder of the season, even though I knew *nothing* about basketball. I was just a nice normal person, so I was qualified. And I had a great time!

- There will be a spectrum of parents and coaches. Some parents are mellow, and some are crazy. You're going to meet parents who think their kid is the next star.

- Of all the things we did, we liked the summer swim team the best. Practices were five days a week. A meets on Saturdays, B meets on Monday nights, and various other weeknight meets (relay carnival, greater Springfield meet, 4th of July, all star meet) throughout the season. I was clerk of course, and my wife timed. We pretty much lived at the pool from mid-June through early August. (I was also on the board of directors at the pool.) Again, I couldn't keep up that pace now, but at the time, we had a great time hanging out with the kids and the parents. Our pool was always seeded in a low division, so we were not very competitive. We tried hard, but nobody really cared if we won. The parents at the pool had the right attitude. We had great cookouts and parties, and many great memories.

- Learn how to entertain yourself. I did all of my parenting before iPhones, so I always had a book. I remember taking a CD player and wallet of CDs to some practice somewhere. In the days before cell phones, coordinating pickup times was a lot harder, and I spent plenty of time waiting in the parking lot. It may not be a problem where you are, but I also learned how to stay warm when I was outside for two hours on a moderately chilly day. I also did some activities when my kids were practicing. When I was heavy into triathlon, I'd go for a quick one-hour run while my kid was in swim practice. For a while, my daughters had swim practice on Saturday nights, so another dad and I played racketball while they were swimming.

[Peally]

May I recommend USPSA and karting? :D

[txdpd]

If they're not wearing it already, they need face protection when batting and playing infield. Softball injuries are no joke.

If nothing else you're setting a good example for your kids about doing things that suck for the benefit of others.

[rob_s]

- Don't push your kids. Sounds silly, but a lot of parents do. I always told my girls that they didn't have to do sports or any other activity. It was 100 percent their choice. Once they committed to a season, I wanted them to finish it, but after that, it was always their choice. The only exception to this is that my wife wanted them to learn how to swim and be good swimmers. She considers that a basic life skill.
I am definitely not pushing. Frankly, I'd already rather if she lost interest.


- Keep it very low key. If they're good and they like it, fine. But don't live through them. Again, sounds silly, but I saw a lot of parents live through their kids. After the very first soccer game I coached at the kindergarten level, we were walking back to the car. I heard a boy ask his mom if they could go to McDonald's or get ice cream or something. She told him no, because they did not win the game. True story.
we had a parent last year on another team scream "if you win I'll take you to get a toy car!" at her kid. they weren't keeping score.
We have a girl on our rec team who cries at every error. I asked our daughter about it because she's been good about consoling the kid. She said the girl's dad basically berates her at home for every mistake. I assume he's some deadbeat that can't figure out another way to pay for college, or another failed athlete living through her, or hes just a douchebag.


- I was very lucky that my girls were mediocre and were not good enough for travel. Travel soccer is expensive. Teams hire coaches and trainers, and uniforms and camps and everything adds up. Every weekend there are games or tournaments within a couple hours drive. Besides overtaking your weekend, the expense of hotels add up. Again, if you and the kids like it, that's great.
In this case, ours isn't good enough either. This is a new travel team and they were desperate for kids. Thankfully, due to the population density of SE FL, we never have to leave the county but that's already p to an hour each way. Shouldn't require hotels but we may decide to get one sometimes just to make it fun.


- You said that you didn't want to volunteer. I volunteered, and it was the best thing I did. For a while I coached two soccer teams. I figured that I had an obligation, and I didn't want to be a freeloader parent. But most importantly, I didn't want some jerk being their coach, and I had a ton of fun with the girls. When one of my girls tried basketball, she wound up with a psycho coach - just a nutcase. He abused the refs, and wasn't good with the girls. He should have been banned from the league because of the way he treated refs, but the league was weak and didn't want to cause trouble. Finally the parents on the team revolted and would not let him near the team. One of the moms asked me to coach the remainder of the season, even though I knew *nothing* about basketball. I was just a nice normal person, so I was qualified. And I had a great time!
i absolutely am not getting involved. We already had the wife of the travel coach come up and start talking to us about "fundraising". I asked how much each kid makes and she said "$200" and I said I'd just give her the $200.


- There will be a spectrum of parents and coaches. Some parents are mellow, and some are crazy. You're going to meet parents who think their kid is the next star.
see above about douchebag dad.


- Of all the things we did, we liked the summer swim team the best. Practices were five days a week. A meets on Saturdays, B meets on Monday nights, and various other weeknight meets (relay carnival, greater Springfield meet, 4th of July, all star meet) throughout the season. I was clerk of course, and my wife timed. We pretty much lived at the pool from mid-June through early August. (I was also on the board of directors at the pool.) Again, I couldn't keep up that pace now, but at the time, we had a great time hanging out with the kids and the parents. Our pool was always seeded in a low division, so we were not very competitive. We tried hard, but nobody really cared if we won. The parents at the pool had the right attitude. We had great cookouts and parties, and many great memories.
my one fading hope is that we'll meet some other parents that are cool. So far it's not looking good but we'll see how this weekend goes. As I understand it the travel parents are more social since they are together more.


- Learn how to entertain yourself. I did all of my parenting before iPhones, so I always had a book. I remember taking a CD player and wallet of CDs to some practice somewhere. In the days before cell phones, coordinating pickup times was a lot harder, and I spent plenty of time waiting in the parking lot. It may not be a problem where you are, but I also learned how to stay warm when I was outside for two hours on a moderately chilly day. I also did some activities when my kids were practicing. When I was heavy into triathlon, I'd go for a quick one-hour run while my kid was in swim practice. For a while, my daughters had swim practice on Saturday nights, so another dad and I played racketball while they were swimming.
I'm torn on this one. I wanted to be that dad that went to every game, always watched the whole game and never sat there reading or looking at my phone, and when we were just rec that was possible, but now it's just insanity. Not to mention, I'm not a sit around guy. My wife and I literally watch less than an hour of tv a night, maybe 4 nights a week, and maybe a movie every month. The inactivity at the field and the 50 million other things I have to do is boiling my brain.

[rob_s]

This has been my life for the last 6 years. Full house travel club volleyball, rec volleyball till 13, and school. We give my daughter July off, otherwise it is 11 months a year and consumes our lives. There is something awesome about watching your kid play in the ESPN center in Orlando in the largest tournament in the world. It is something you get used to. It is horrifically expensive along with time consuming. The benefits....really prepares your kid to what the work world is like, builds discipline, and at the club and expensive travel levels drugs are not part of the culture nor are typical kid shenanigans. You simply give your life up for theirs. Shooting competitively...you are done. I look at it as an investment in putting my kid in a culture that is the last place with rules, discipline, accountability, consequences, punishment, real trophy’s and real competition, stress, pressure, and a place where you can buy shirts that say “Suck it up Buttercup”. The last bastion of coaches running girls till they puke. You want to build tough kids in a snowflake world...hard core club sports.
Also, if you want to remotely think about a college scholarship....this is where recruiters now look. Serious kids, with serious family structure and support. Recruiters can look at hundreds of kids at a club event at the same time instead of one or two at a high school game.
So.......this comes down to your level of dedication. It comes down to a contract with your kid (at the better clubs...your kid is also signing a contract commitment and expected to live up to it, where quitting has expensive ramifications) that they will commit to. It is a huge sacrifice, but you get one shot at forming your future adult and this is one of the few places where you can mold some toughness and grit.

I've heard a lot of this same matra before. Yet for every kid I've seen playing sports, or every sportsball kid I knew growing up, there is no correlation. We have a relative who has all three of his boys in football and wrestling, and he's been super active, and not one of them is headed for college. They'll peak out at 17 when they win division aaa trophy for 3rd place some weight class and then go on to work on cars or something. Not that there's anything wrong with working on cars, but it's not exactly the leadership CEO role everyone makes out like all these kids are destined for. I haven't met a CEO yet in my business that played any sports beyond little league. I went to my 10 and 20 year high school reunions and none of the high school sports stars had gone on to anything other than their 3rd wife and 5th kid.

My point is, I don't frankly think sports or lack of sports has anything to do with it. Some parents need that excuse to have something to do, be involved in their kids lives, etc. That's great. It's the involvement that matters IMO and we've never been uninvolved in their lives.

[hufnagel]

my kid was disappointed we wouldn't sign him up for "travel" soccer, since that's what he aged into. problem is, he refused to show any aptitude and discipline/desire to really practice it like he does his taekwondo. as such we told him "NO." it was worse for us; up to 3 hours round trip driving in some cases.

that was last year. so far he's made no noise about it, and probably never will.

there needs to be WAY more local "rec" type programs for kids to play sports. he's never going to be the next mega pro player, but he'd get a kick (pun intended!) out of say a program that did a weekend get together for some games.

[vaglocker]

It's a lot easier if you also enjoy the sport they are participating in. In my son's case baseball. If he or any of my other children were playing travel soccer I would rather kill myself.

[Dagga Boy]

I've heard a lot of this same matra before. Yet for every kid I've seen playing sports, or every sportsball kid I knew growing up, there is no correlation. We have a relative who has all three of his boys in football and wrestling, and he's been super active, and not one of them is headed for college. They'll peak out at 17 when they win division aaa trophy for 3rd place some weight class and then go on to work on cars or something. Not that there's anything wrong with working on cars, but it's not exactly the leadership CEO role everyone makes out like all these kids are destined for. I haven't met a CEO yet in my business that played any sports beyond little league. I went to my 10 and 20 year high school reunions and none of the high school sports stars had gone on to anything other than their 3rd wife and 5th kid.

My point is, I don't frankly think sports or lack of sports has anything to do with it. Some parents need that excuse to have something to do, be involved in their kids lives, etc. That's great. It's the involvement that matters IMO and we've never been uninvolved in their lives.

Well.....never mind then. You have the answer you want in your mind already.

[ubervic]

I've been dealing with travel sports for about 6 years but for only one of my two girls; the other was in competitive dance. Travel sports seldom turn into offers from college scouts unless you're in a really high-level club and the player is unusually and very noticeably talented. However, I think the right club is great for building kids' self-esteem, commitment to a team effort, discipline---all of which contribute to a more productive and well-rounded human who does well in school and in other environments later in life. It's no guarantee, but I'm convinced there's something to it.

Yeah, it is disruptive to family life unless/until you decide to embrace it. If it's just not what you want to support, and if your child is not gung-ho on his or her own, then it's probably not for you, and that's fine, too. But I think the biggest component is determining how committed your child is to it.

Wait a minute. Did P-F.com just become FB?? :)

[Jakus]

So far we've avoided signing our two, 3.5 & 6 year old boys, up for any organized sports. My oldest did a few weeks of gymnastics classes two years ago, but we did it to get him ready for a week of lessons at ski school. We are getting very close to having the older one try a youth wrestling/BJJ program that is a couple of nights per week. My main goal with this would be to get this some more rough and tumble play time and see if he wants to continue with it.

I get that for some the 3 nights a week plus weekend games & travel may be rewarding, but we really enjoy a lot of outdoor family activities. I can't tell you how many time my wife has said recently that keeping weekend time uncommited takes real effort. It seems like every time we go camping we will throw and invites to other families and no one can get away for even a night. I spent most of last weekend riding mountain bikes with the family on sidewalks and trails, and couldn't imagine any better use of the family time. As our family gets older I hope that camping/biking/hiking grows into backpacking, fishing, and long trail rides.

I am probably biased, but I have seen so many of my family members spent 12+ years grinding some sport into the dirt so hard that either injuries or just being completely sick of it has lead to the participant reaching early adulthood an never doing that sport again. I had a good friend start complaining to me one time about this daughters 3rd activity and I looked at him and said "She's 7, she didn't fill out the paperwork by herself". This whole every minute of every day needs to be scheduled to me is insane. When do kids learn to ride a bike, swim, fish, cook, work with hand tools, (fill in the missing life skill here), etc......

I am by no means saying that anyone here does this, but it seems to me that for every one parent who is truly using organized sports to enrich their children's lives, there are 9 out there using it as a substitute for parenting that ends up scheduling their entire lives.

[Caesar]

MINI RANT ALERT.......

I’ve got two kids, a daughter and son, who have both participated in club sports in one of the most competitive areas in the country. In our community, if youth sports and club teams are your business, then “bidness” is good. We have a gigantic supply of kids and parents willing to participate.

It’s no doubt a huge financial and time commitment on the part of the whole family. For some athletes that are athletically gifted, there may be a payback in the form of a college scholarship but for most it won’t be. Financially, it’s likely a loser but not everything is about dollars and cents. If the kid enjoys it and is motivated to improve, I say go for it. Otherwise, it’s an expensive way of playing a sport and learning some life lessons. Two things we used to do on the sandlot or local youth center without the input of parants and coaches to screw it up.

Its big business in many areas of the country and there seems to be an ample amount of demand. Lots of parants will write the checks to give Johnny or Susie a shot of being someone and be able to tell their friends their kid plays for XYZ club. Its true they may get good coaching and see stiff competition, but like I said, it’s a business.

Like any other business, I think you have to evaluate it based on results. Girls volleyball and softball, I think it’s worth it after 9th grade, assuming the kid is into it and you have the cash, for all reasons DB mentioned. Boys baseball, on the other hand, I think it’s another story. If the goal is to set the kid up for a scholarship or to be drafted, the model appears broken. Look at any major league team. The demographics are changing as a larger and larger percentage of players are coming from outside the US. I’m not smart enough to say why but our select baseball system doesn’t appear to be preparing athletes for the big time. Perhaps it’s “affluenza” and our players don’t have “throw down” but as a system it doesn’t appear to deliver the goods.

In my experience, there is a big difference between pre and post puberty kids. I’ve seen some young players that were average not make top clubs then flourish after they start puberty. The system has a tendency of sorting kids out way too early. If I had it to do over again, I’d save the money and time, keep the kids involved in local leagues if they want to play, and when they are in 8th, 9th, or 10th grade get them on a club team if they are eaten up with the sport and committed to improving.

As someone else said, I learned to keep my mouth shut. No sport is worth my relationship with my kids. I’ve seen dads publicly destroy their kid over a missed ground ball. It’s not worth it and it makes the parent look like an idiot.

What the club system doesn’t want parents to know is if your kid is a badass and dominates their sport, someone will find them whether they played club or not. I’ve seen it happen all to often. As with everything, there are pluses and minuses and only you can determine whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

[rob_s]

my kid was disappointed we wouldn't sign him up for "travel" soccer, since that's what he aged into. problem is, he refused to show any aptitude and discipline/desire to really practice it like he does his taekwondo. as such we told him "NO." it was worse for us; up to 3 hours round trip driving in some cases.

This is frankly where I think we fall, and part of my resistance to the travel bit.

she's not good. and she doesn't try. she doesn't ask to practice, and she doesn't really want to. From where I sit, she likes it because (a) she's off the leash we normally keep her on (she's ADHD and we keep a pretty tight reign because of it) and (b) it's social for her in a way that doesn't involve us or her sister.

i'm fine with all of that, at the rec level. What I'm not ok with is the whole family burning entire weekends, and week nights, and sinking hundreds or thousands of dollars so she can play fuckaround with a bunch of other girls.

Especially when my own ADD has me twitching just sitting there getting old.

[vcdgrips]

Random Observations and Suggestions
1. Drop the travel team and focus on the Rec League. You were down with giving the team the 200 without the fundraising. Give that to them as your parting gift.

2. I suspect your daughter is picking up your non excitedness about her in rec sports in general. If she is, that is likely affecting her effort.

3. For a lot of 10 yr olds, the goals are "butt down, glove down" on defense and "keep your eye on the ball when making contact" on offense. Throwing grounders to her and having her hit off a tee and/or hitting stick and/or "daddy" pitch 10 minutes each, a few time a week will pay immediate dividends at this level.

4. In that vein, has she had a current vision check? many young athletes simply do not have the vision corrections they need which impact their ability to enjoy/succeed in the game

5. I concur that puberty/middle school is where the rubber really starts to hit the road re who has the potential to be good enough to make varsity etc.

6. You mention your ADD, if you are on meds and your mind is wondering to the extent you mention, you might need an adjustment, if you are not on meds, food for thought re getting on them.

7. Sample the sporting fare on the rec level across the board before committing to moving up to a travel team.

My 18 yr old female senior played basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball and track during elementary school. All school or rec leagues only. By the time we got to middle school, we were down to basketball and track. Not surprising she excelled most in track because that is where she had the most natural talent running the open 200 and 4 x200. By the time we got to high school, just track. She made the call from being a jock to a more rounded kid who did one sport, Girl Scouts, School Newspaper etc. and cranked serious grades. She is on the precipice of deciding on schools. I have no doubt that playing different sports, taught how to win/lose with grace, strive to do her personal best, be appropriately aggressive in all things and know when to throw the occasional and well earned elbow, forearm or knee.

Respectfully, I suspect you all are blessed with the time, talent and treasure to allow your children to be exposed to a number of activities when they are young and are figuring out what they like and what they might be good out now and post puberty.

Final thoughts re "helping" with teams.
A. You are making memories with your kids.
B. If not you...who?
C. No one can protect your daughter (and her teammates by extension) better than you.

YMMV greatly,

david
vcdgrips.com

[rob_s]

Random Observations and Suggestions
1. Drop the travel team and focus on the Rec League. You were down with giving the team the 200 without the fundraising. Give that to them as your parting gift.
if only. Unfortunately my wife is pushing for all of this for reasons that are unclear to me. Several years ago we watched friends go through this and agreed we never would, now here we are. A meeting of the minds between us is imminent.



2. I suspect your daughter is picking up your non excitedness about her in rec sports in general. If she is, that is likely affecting her effort.
Possibly. Probably. By the same token, I'm picking up on her lack of effort, and adjusting my attitude in kind. her sister is in micky mouse gymnastics but shows a genuine effort and promise and gets support in return.



3. For a lot of 10 yr olds, the goals are "butt down, glove down" on defense and "keep your eye on the ball when making contact" on offense. Throwing grounders to her and having her hit off a tee and/or hitting stick and/or "daddy" pitch 10 minutes each, a few time a week will pay immediate dividends at this level.
yeah, we're trying to find the time to work on that. But with being at the field two nights a week and all day Saturdays now, and other stuff we want to do besides be consumed by Softball, it's not happening.



4. In that vein, has she had a current vision check? many young athletes simply do not have the vision corrections they need which impact their ability to enjoy/succeed in the game
I'm not 100% sure. It's a good suggestion though.



5. I concur that puberty/middle school is where the rubber really starts to hit the road re who has the potential to be good enough to make varsity etc.
that's two years away. My original plan for all of this was to stick to rec until she seemed like she was performing in some way, and then worry about more advanced leagues.



6. You mention your ADD, if you are on meds and your mind is wondering to the extent you mention, you might need an adjustment, if you are not on meds, food for thought re getting on them.
undiagnosed. I'm mostly using it in the common sense in that I don't have the attention span or patience to sit around for 8 hours with my ass in the grass.



7. Sample the sporting fare on the rec level across the board before committing to moving up to a travel team.
god, if only. Now we can't unfuck the prom queen. We tried to miss even one game and the coach's wife started whining about how if they don't have enough players they forfeit and lose the money.



My 18 yr old female senior played basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball and track during elementary school. All school or rec leagues only. By the time we got to middle school, we were down to basketball and track. Not surprising she excelled most in track because that is where she had the most natural talent running the open 200 and 4 x200. By the time we got to high school, just track. She made the call from being a jock to a more rounded kid who did one sport, Girl Scouts, School Newspaper etc. and cranked serious grades. She is on the precipice of deciding on schools. I have no doubt that playing different sports, taught how to win/lose with grace, strive to do her personal best, be appropriately aggressive in all things and know when to throw the occasional and well earned elbow, forearm or knee.
sounds like a great kid. From everything I read and hear these days, those things were going to happen whether she played sports or not. Nature>nuture, much to the chagrin of most parents.

That said, I'd must rather we tried softball, soccer, lacrosse, etc. at the rec and then went all-in if she showed promise at one of those.


Respectfully, I suspect you all are blessed with the time, talent and treasure to allow your children to be exposed to a number of activities when they are young and are figuring out what they like and what they might be good out now and post puberty.
we spend a ton of time doing things together as a family. This all just strikes me as a distraction from all of that. her sister is now left to roam the ball field park while we all sit around due to softball. Or, we have to shuffle one here to get the other there... I get that's how a lot of people want to raise their kids and spend their time these days. I'm not one of them. I see a lot of folks that weren't doing much of anything, found sports, and got consumed. That wasn't us. We were already busy and over-scheduled and now we've added this.



Final thoughts re "helping" with teams.
A. You are making memories with your kids.
B. If not you...who?
C. No one can protect your daughter (and her teammates by extension) better than you.

like I said, we spend plenty of time with them. or, we did, until this came along. All that my "helping" is going to do is get my hands and feet further stuck in the tar baby. If there is some danger I need to be concerned with that can only be averted by my volunteering, that sounds like all the more reason to GTFO.

[JTQ]

My kids are in their early twenties and played rec soccer. I was involved in running the soccer program and with our overall park sports program. Lots of their friends started with them in rec sports and moved on to travel teams and several of guys with the park worked with the travel teams and had their kids on the travel teams.

I wasn't disappointed we didn't do travel sports when my kids were young, and looking back ten years later, I see not doing travel sports as an even better idea now than at the time we chose not to put them into that. The return on the investment is just not worth it, to me.

For travel ball, expect at least three months a year of spending nearly every weekend on the road, staying in a hotel, watching your kid play ball all day long.

My brother-in-law had his daughter with travel volleyball and son in travel hockey from middle school through high school. They were out of Chicago, and traveled all over the midwest with the kids. Both were pretty good, but neither played their sport in college.

[Trooper224]

When my children were growing up I encouraged them to expand their horizons, think for themselves and never fear stepping out of their box. Consequently, they all tried a variety of sporting activities. In the end, none of them took on a permanent basis and just between me, myself and I, I breathed a inner sigh of relief when that happened. I always supported their choices, but also felt I had better things to do than set on my ass in the bleachers every Saturday.

I'm not anti-athletics by any means as I competed in one particular sport at a high level from between the ages of seven and twenty one. However, I'm not a sports fanatic and that's the trouble: too many parents are. Someone said "the parents are assholes" and that's damned straight. There are far too many potbellied never beens and raging bitch trophy moms sitting in the stands, living vicariously through their kids. One of my wifes students was a football player with significant short term memory problems due to a concussion or two. The family doctor told his parents he should stop, the kid didn't really want to keep playing, but the parents would have none of it and it wasn't as if he was a star player. The poor guy probably can't make change now.

Athletics have become too overemphasized at every level in our society. The kind of schedules these sports demand of kids and families are outrageous. The money outlay is a racket and parents willingly buy into it, all for the privilege of saying, "That's MY kid." Sitting in the stand three days a week watching your kid bounce, throw, or catch isn't "family time". I never worried about finding somewhere where my kids had structure and discipline, because they got plenty of that at home. Raising my children was my job, not that of the coach. Strangely enough, they've all turned out to be fine human beings. I didn't need some douche canoe coach who thinks he's working for the NFL to do that for me. Instead of playing MAYB Baseball, my kids learned more about life playing stick ball with their buddies down in the sandlot. They sure got a lot more family time camping, hiking and shooting with mom and dad than they did running around a field chasing a ball like a dog.

Sports are great, the lack of perspective most seem to have about them isn't.

[Casual Friday]

Clearly it's taking away from the family rather than adding to it so I'd have a chat with Mrs rob_s immediately. Find out why she thought the travel team was a good idea even though the girl isn't very good or interested in softball.

The physical activity is the most beneficial thing about sports in my opinion. American kids are fat these days. The character building stuff should be done at home.

[Dismas316]

I have two boys who played travel ball here in Texas which needles to say is ridiculously competitive. Weekends were pretty much taken up for years doing this , and during that time we’d bitch and moan a little about all our weekends were always taken up for this. Well both boys are older now and in college or no longer involved in travel youth sports and I can’t tell you how much we miss all those long weekends in tournaments.

Those were great times and the boys formed good friendships from this. Outside of a few out of control parents on ocassion, it was a great experience for the whole family. Would do it all over in a second.

[Bratch]

4. In that vein, has she had a current vision check? many young athletes simply do not have the vision corrections they need which impact their ability to enjoy/succeed in the game


david
vcdgrips.com

Baseball in the 1st-3rd grade range is where my bad vision was diagnosed. I wasn't responding to the ball when it was in my area.

[andre3k]

I don't see how parents do it. I hope both of my kids express an interest in competitive shooting or motorsports. That's something that I can get behind.

[rob_s]

The physical activity is the most beneficial thing about sports in my opinion. American kids are fat these days. The character building stuff should be done at home.

I agree.

The thing sim, baseball/softball aren’t sports. Playing and practicing for softball alone aren’t going to get anyone any extra activities. At a certain point being fit helps with the game, but the game doesn’t make one fit.

That’s why I was hoping for lacrosse, soccer, or basketball. Pretty constant activity on the field.

[rob_s]

Do you have any references for this? As a parent of a 6 year old, that’s probably something I’d enjoy reading.

A lot of it comes from the various TED talks and Freakonomics podcasts and the follow on reading from or about the speakers. I’ll have to look for some reference material.

[Hambo]

Disclaimer: I don't have kids, so most parents write off my opinions. These are my detached observations.

-I believe team sports have value for kids. Putting in practice, working together with others, etc.

-I believe team sports are not the end all for kids. 99% will never be pros, if there is even a pro level to get to.

-However, there are sports scholarships. A friend's son is already being looked at for baseball.

-There can be parent and family problems. Parents pushing, parents too wrapped up in their kid's success/failure, insane practice/play schedules. This is not limited to sports, though. I know one family whose daughter dances 4-5 nights a week and all day Saturday. Essentially the kid has two full time jobs: school and dance.

Back in the day we played on sports teams but it didn't alter our entire family life and schedule. I don't see why you can't do that now.

[rob_s]

Back in the day we played on sports teams but it didn't alter our entire family life and schedule. I don't see why you can't do that now.

It doesn’t seem to exist. Even the rec team practices one night a week and has a game one night, plus a Saturday game.

Getting our daughter involved in a sport was largely my idea but I assumed that things still worked like they did when I was a kid with one practice night a week and one Saturday game a week, for 2-3 months a year. And you wore whatever clothes you had lying around plus the team shirt with “Gordo’s pizza” or “goldfarrb dentistry” or whatever on the back.

Now it’s pants, belts, socks, helmet, face mask, bat... I’m super proud of our ghetto hand me down bat from god knows who but I’m already getting pressure to get a new one.

[JTQ]

I had initially overlooked the fact that you're doing both rec and travel leagues with one kid. Our park didn't allow that. You either played rec or you played travel, unless the seasons didn't overlap such as you play fall rec soccer and spring travel soccer.

I'd suspect you're going to miss a bunch of rec games playing travel ball. This doesn't seem fair to the rest of your kid's rec team as they are counting on your kid for not only talent, but also just as a body. You add your kid gone for travel with another kid sick, and another out of town for some family event and pretty soon your rec team is forfeiting games because they don't have enough players. That's a downer for your rec team and the team scheduled to play them.

[Dagga Boy]

I am really sort of laughing at this on this forum. My kid is not a natural athlete by any stretch. My kid has been coached by amazing coaches from the time she was 9. She quickly outgrew city recreation programs and the YMCA.....because those were sports monitors and the equivalent of the local guy at the range who likes guns in our world. Middle school.....local CHL instructor at best. High School coaches were teachers who had some extra duty and the equivalent of the NRA basic instructor we all get giddy about maligning. What my kid got was pure fundamentals drilled in from minute one in club. When she got to high school, she was approached by the senior varsity players asking where she learned her hitting approach as they had never had a kid come in with her level of fundamental skills that far outweighed her physical fitness (especially with both asthma and vocal chord disorder).
This is not for everyone. Just like the level many on this forum train at compared to most firearms users. I am quiet during games. I am not that parent (and yes they are around, but I have seen worse behavior at school games). My kid is hyper competitive and is harder on herself than I will ever be. I am paying for exceptional coaches.....just like many of us attend classes with exceptional trainers.
I remember a young kid that used to come to the range where the PD and SWAT trained. You know, that crazy parent always at the range forcing their poor kid to shoot. Great coaching from really good older shooters. Exactly like what we are talking about here. I am sure JoJo Vidanes did not mind the time his parents devoted and expense. Same with our own Casey Ryan. I do not think Casey is worse off because of the effort Jim has put forth to support his daughter.
I ll simply post one picture that speaks to what this stuff offers SOME kids...teamwork, shared misery as well as victories, how to both win and lose with honor, helping others, doing your job, commitment, working with folks who do not look like you or have the same culture or values. This is not about a stupid game with a ball that costs a lot for me. It is removing my kid from a world in our schools where making a kid stand by themselves is considered corporal punishment, where our kids are taught that they are entitled, have no personal responsibility, have no consequences, and no ethics and are exposed via the digital age to more Vice and freak show perversion imaginable that we could not even fathom. I do not need a pod cast. I have seen a huge difference as an FTO in LE, and having an entire team of security folks from different age groups to see the value that sports play with my folks versus the other young employees in the building. It does not have to be sports, it is simply having something that they take seriously and are held to high expectations in both requiring hard work and dedication and both success and consequence played out in reality and not via a digital means.

[JAD]

My primary job as a parent is to form the kid’s conscience— to make a moral kid. My secondary job is to make sure that none of his skills prevent him from exercising what later turn out to be his talents.

I think a little team sport exposure kind of helps moral formation and socialization, but I think there are bigger bang-for-buck things to do with our time together.

[rob_s]

I had initially overlooked the fact that you're doing both rec and travel leagues with one kid. Our park didn't allow that. You either played rec or you played travel, unless the seasons didn't overlap such as you play fall rec soccer and spring travel soccer.

I'd suspect you're going to miss a bunch of rec games playing travel ball. This doesn't seem fair to the rest of your kid's rec team as they are counting on your kid for not only talent, but also just as a body. You add your kid gone for travel with another kid sick, and another out of town for some family event and pretty soon your rec team is forfeiting games because they don't have enough players. That's a downer for your rec team and the team scheduled to play them.

There's evidently some overlap of the seasons. I think today is the first day of the rec "tournament" which also happens to be the first day of the travel "season".

From what I can tell, it appears that the way this works is somebody decides to create a tournament, and sets about making that happen. This happens at lots of parks all over the county. the teams are all created by other somebodies who then have to go about securing practice space and signing up for these tournaments. It appears that it's all "off book" in that these aren't municipality-manged events but privately-managed events that use municipal venues and (presumably) pay a fee to rent them. In turn, the teams pay a fee to participate in the tournament, and pay a fee to rent space at the county and city parks for practices.

our travel team is a new team to this circuit. the coach has been coaching rec, and I think he assisted on a travel team, but now he's decided to form his own team. That's how we wound up here. He sent out an email to the whole rec league looking for players and basically got all the misfits that weren't already on travel teams. He also coaches a rec team, almost all of which are players from his travel team (I think we're the only ones on the travel team not on his rec team), but the upshot of all of this is that he's conscious of not scheduling a travel game in conflict with the rec games. That said, we've already missed rec practices because we were at travel practices, which royally pissed me off because IMO we signed up for rec first and we owe them first.

Today we have a rec game at 9 at a park 20 min from the house, then a travel game at 1:40 that's 40 minutes from the house, then another travel at the same venue at 4:30 and a final travel game for the day at 6:30. If we don't lose today, we have to be back there tomorrow at 8:30 for another game. Even if we weren't doing rec, that's still a lot of time sucked up.

So here's where all of the logistical nonsense crops up and where I don't "get" what other people do here. Because now I'm home with the 7 year old with a list of honey-dos and chores that just keeps getting longer, and I'm left with not much other choice than plopping her in front of the TV. At least when the whole family is home, or at least both kids, they can play together outside (we have over an acre, a pool, a playground, etc.) and entertain one another.

I'm supposed to meet the wife at the park for the 4:30 game, we're all supposed to watch that one together, then she's going to leave with the 7 year old while I stay with the 9 year old through the end of the 6:30 game. I have no fucking clue what I'm supposed to do with myself from 6-8. It's softball. I only care when she's hitting or when the ball is hit to her. I don't watch pro sportsball for the same reasons, I just don't care.

[rob_s]

I hope both of my kids express an interest in competitive shooting or motorsports. That's something that I can get behind.

My current plan for the morning is to get our go kart running and get the little one addicted to that. I'm considering getting her a dirt bike. I'd love nothing more than spending our weekends at the dirt track that's ~1 hour from here, sitting around the trailer tinkering on mini bikes, hanging out with the WHOLE family, etc.

[rob_s]

I am really sort of laughing at this on this forum. My kid is not a natural athlete by any stretch. My kid has been coached by amazing coaches from the time she was 9. She quickly outgrew city recreation programs and the YMCA.....because those were sports monitors and the equivalent of the local guy at the range who likes guns in our world. Middle school.....local CHL instructor at best. High School coaches were teachers who had some extra duty and the equivalent of the NRA basic instructor we all get giddy about maligning. What my kid got was pure fundamentals drilled in from minute one in club. When she got to high school, she was approached by the senior varsity players asking where she learned her hitting approach as they had never had a kid come in with her level of fundamental skills that far outweighed her physical fitness (especially with both asthma and vocal chord disorder).
This is not for everyone. Just like the level many on this forum train at compared to most firearms users. I am quiet during games. I am not that parent (and yes they are around, but I have seen worse behavior at school games). My kid is hyper competitive and is harder on herself than I will ever be. I am paying for exceptional coaches.....just like many of us attend classes with exceptional trainers.
I remember a young kid that used to come to the range where the PD and SWAT trained. You know, that crazy parent always at the range forcing their poor kid to shoot. Great coaching from really good older shooters. Exactly like what we are talking about here. I am sure JoJo Vidanes did not mind the time his parents devoted and expense. Same with our own Casey Ryan. I do not think Casey is worse off because of the effort Jim has put forth to support his daughter.
I ll simply post one picture that speaks to what this stuff offers SOME kids...teamwork, shared misery as well as victories, how to both win and lose with honor, helping others, doing your job, commitment, working with folks who do not look like you or have the same culture or values. This is not about a stupid game with a ball that costs a lot for me. It is removing my kid from a world in our schools where making a kid stand by themselves is considered corporal punishment, where our kids are taught that they are entitled, have no personal responsibility, have no consequences, and no ethics and are exposed via the digital age to more Vice and freak show perversion imaginable that we could not even fathom. I do not need a pod cast. I have seen a huge difference as an FTO in LE, and having an entire team of security folks from different age groups to see the value that sports play with my folks versus the other young employees in the building. It does not have to be sports, it is simply having something that they take seriously and are held to high expectations in both requiring hard work and dedication and both success and consequence played out in reality and not via a digital means.

So, you're kid's an only child?

[rob_s]

My primary job as a parent is to form the kid’s conscience— to make a moral kid. My secondary job is to make sure that none of his skills prevent him from exercising what later turn out to be his talents.

I think a little team sport exposure kind of helps moral formation and socialization, but I think there are bigger bang-for-buck things to do with our time together.

This is why I was good with rec. Get some fresh air, maybe learn some team sports lessons maybe not, sit through one game on a Saturday and then go to lunch or brunch as a family, go to a movie or the beach after, etc.

there's no, as I see it as of now, benefit to the travel thing for the kid or for us. it's wrong to me that the whole family is going to be held hostage by this bullshit for... well these people are so disorganized I frankly don't know how long this drags on for.

Which does remind of one thing related to shooting... volunteers and volunteer leaders. if these people had good management skills they'd be out leading companies and managing businesses. What we're left with is the people that *aren't* that. Much like myself, I'm at work from 7-6 every day, and I have to travel for work easily every other week or have some sort of industry function after work. That's what it takes to pay for this lifestyle, so that means I'm not going to be available to help run a team, I'm too busy helping run a business.

[scw2]

I'd suspect you're going to miss a bunch of rec games playing travel ball. This doesn't seem fair to the rest of your kid's rec team as they are counting on your kid for not only talent, but also just as a body. You add your kid gone for travel with another kid sick, and another out of town for some family event and pretty soon your rec team is forfeiting games because they don't have enough players. That's a downer for your rec team and the team scheduled to play them.


TLDR: probably not a big deal if you talk to Rec coach first and explain situation and get the OK, and the kid is nice to his or her rec team teammates.


We had a kid do that on our red team growing up, and I assume the Dad explained the situation to our coach before joining. We had enough people and many of the other kids were decent so it never hurt the team much when he wasn’t there. The fact that the kid was nice and didn’t hold it over our heads that he was in traveling while the rest of us were not meant it wasn’t a big deal and basically just another team member. I suspect the individual situation may vary, but felt like it may be worth considering if it’s the right situation. I feel like it would provide a great place to develop and try new skills or moves in a lower risk environment than in games for the traveling team.

[Dagga Boy]

So, you're kid's an only child?

Yes, which helps. It is also the reason I think team sports is a good thing for her. Before we moved to Texas, western riding and rodeo was her thing. Her trainer actually won Miss Rodeo USA while she was training my daughter. I know exactly ZERO about horse stuff. I do know how important good teachers and trainers are from our shooting world. In our world most here would never subject our kids to “That Guy” instructor at the shooting range, but we willing do it with other sports.

I think what rob s is seeing is some of the ugly parts of this stuff. Rec/City type sports is a very good way to figure out if your kid is actually interested and likes something. A few weeks in that level of cheerleading for my kid was all it took to get rid of that horror. Thank GOD she is allergic to grass! As we drove past the soccer fields on the way to the horse ranch when she was little, I smiled. The transition from Rec to Travel is really hard, because it is a real break off point. IF they love the sport, IF they have the ability, it is totally worth it. In Volleyball world, club kids are standouts if they are at a good club with great coaches. When middle school hits and they start playing in 8th grade, the club coached kids are night and day better because of fundamentals coaching more than anything else.
Also, this is not about you. I REALLY tried to get my kid to fall in love with shooting and to shoot competitions. Took her to matches, the range, etc. She likes to shoot, but does not love it enough to really pursue it. My life would be far better if we were doing something I love, but again it is not about me. I had my chance as a kid to do what I loved. It is my kids turn now and I simply do what I can to get her the best coaching I can. I did a bunch of research into both the horseback riding and Volleyball before I started dropping money. That is where the real importance and distinction is for me. If you could get an amazing coach in rec league or at a school, great. Simply does not seem to be the norm and not really different than our world.

[Dagga Boy]

Forgot to add....once we started playing club, we were very up front with the Rec. coach that Club came first. She was more than happy to work with that. It helped her have a winning team and helped her having an example kid to use to show the other kids how things should look. The key was very honest communication.
Pre puberty, most of these kids are a mess (including mine) and clumsy and totally uncoordinated. It is why that coaching and good visual examples are important.

[JTQ]

I'm supposed to meet the wife at the park for the 4:30 game, we're all supposed to watch that one together, then she's going to leave with the 7 year old while I stay with the 9 year old through the end of the 6:30 game. I have no fucking clue what I'm supposed to do with myself from 6-8. It's softball. I only care when she's hitting or when the ball is hit to her. I don't watch pro sportsball for the same reasons, I just don't care.
I don't think any of us can help you with that. That's something you're going to have work out yourself. Wait until your kid is older and she gets into ballet/dance, choir, band, orchestra, acting, debate team, math team, Latin team, etc. I suspect you're going to have a harder time sitting through those events rather than watching a ball game.

[rob_s]

I don't think any of us can help you with that. That's something you're going to have work out yourself. Wait until your kid is older and she gets into ballet/dance, choir, band, orchestra, acting, debate team, math team, Latin team, etc. I suspect you're going to have a harder time sitting through those events rather than watching a ball game.

I guess my question is, WTF do people do with themselves? There is no way that they are sitting there watching all 6 hours of 9 year old girls playing softball.

And even if they are... that's never going to work for me. I can hardly sit through and entire movie these days because there's 90 other things I either want to be doing or need to be doing instead of that.

[rob_s]

Yes, which helps. It is also the reason I think team sports is a good thing for her. Before we moved to Texas, western riding and rodeo was her thing. Her trainer actually won Miss Rodeo USA while she was training my daughter. I know exactly ZERO about horse stuff. I do know how important good teachers and trainers are from our shooting world. In our world most here would never subject our kids to “That Guy” instructor at the shooting range, but we willing do it with other sports.


I had some neighbors that homeschooled their kids until high school. They had the boy in various sports things and scouts (and maybe the girl too, I have no idea) which was clearly good for him so that he got the socialization that he wouldn't otherwise get.

But we have two kids, that go to school and who we spend a lot of time with already, and now I'm sitting at home with the 7 year old trying to figure out what to do with her for the next 7 hours while I get my own shit done.

[JTQ]

I guess my question is, WTF do people do with themselves? There is no way that they are sitting there watching all 6 hours of 9 year old girls playing softball.
I think parents tag team on this, especially if you have multiple kids. As you're doing right now, one will watch the kid playing and the other is with the other kid/kids. Lots of those travel tournaments are at either destination places or at least the tournament directors will list local spots for entertainment away from the ball games. For instance you could be at a water park with kid #2 while your wife is watching kid #1 play ball. For game two, you're watching the game, and your wife is shopping with kid #2.

[Dagga Boy]

I had some neighbors that homeschooled their kids until high school. They had the boy in various sports things and scouts (and maybe the girl too, I have no idea) which was clearly good for him so that he got the socialization that he wouldn't otherwise get.

But we have two kids, that go to school and who we spend a lot of time with already, and now I'm sitting at home with the 7 year old trying to figure out what to do with her for the next 7 hours while I get my own shit done.

Keep in mind my wife died when my daughter was 8 and she was pretty sick the last year or two before that, so just running one kid has been a ride.

I ll be blunt.....it sucks, especially if you are one of those folks who have an inability to not be doing anything. I have a standard load out of a book and my iPad for tournament weekends (which are two to three days). Same for practice. For awhile I would walk a circuit around the courts for an hour during practices. Now that practices are from 8-10 at night and I am coming off a 13 plus hour workday, I sit and chill with a book. A possible way to feel busy is to get involved. Score keeping is what kept my mom sane when I lived on a baseball field as a kid. I have seen parents who are professionals at the club world of sports with all manner of distractions and things to stay occupied. Sadly, I can’t dry practice at the facility. It is just as much adapting to boredom for parents as part of the process.

I just got married in December. My wife actually loves the games because it is new and helps her bond with her new step daughter. Being able to split the workload helps. I am working today and she is at a tournament. I ll do the tournament tomorrow. This will all justify me being selfish about stuff when the kid heads off to college.

[Trooper224]

I guess my question is, WTF do people do with themselves? There is no way that they are sitting there watching all 6 hours of 9 year old girls playing softball.

And even if they are... that's never going to work for me. I can hardly sit through and entire movie these days because there's 90 other things I either want to be doing or need to be doing instead of that.

My father never gave a damn about anything I ever did. He never showed up at any of the events I was involved in, ever. It wasn't because my parents were divorced, it would have been better if they had been, He just didn't give a shit. My mother wasn't much better in her own way. If it was something she loved, then it was a hundred percent. If not, it was as if I didn't exist. At one point I was on track for the Olympics, but you never would have known it around our house.

I didn't want my children to have that memory of looking up in the stands and knowing no one was there for them. You think I wanted to spend my Saturday off sitting at a track and field event, a basketball game or a wrestling match? Hell no, but I wanted to be there for them, that's what I was doing with myself. Today, they're in their twenties and thirties and they tell people how they knew I didn't want to be there, but I was anyway and how much that meant to them. That's my reward.

[Dagga Boy]

My father never gave a damn about anything I ever did. He never showed up at any of the events I was involved in, ever. It wasn't because my parents were divorced, it would have been better if they had been, He just didn't give a shit. My mother wasn't much better in her own way. If it was something she loved, then it was a hundred percent. If not, it was as if I didn't exist. At one point I was on track for the Olympics, but you never would have known it around our house.

I didn't want my children to have that memory of looking up in the stands and knowing no one was there for them. You think I wanted to spend my Saturday off sitting at a track and field event, a basketball game or a wrestling match? Hell no, but I wanted to be there for them, that's what I was doing with myself. Today, they're in their twenties and thirties and they tell people how they knew I didn't want to be there, but I was anyway and how much that meant to them. That's my reward.

Every single person I know who got no parent support for their “thing” in the teen years intensely remembers that their parent did not give a crap. That memory stays. With whatever faults my parents had, I will always cherish the fact that they actively participated in everything from baseball, soccer, Indian Guides and Boy Scouts. When I watch the Olympics, many of those sports not only highlight the athlete, but an insane level of parental support, time and effort.

[OlongJohnson]

My parents weren't into sports, so there was never a game on the TV at home. I found motorsports a lot more interesting when I chose what to watch. I still remember Sunday mornings watching NASCAR on the black and white, and the first race of Million Dollar Bill's big season starting at Daytona in 1985.

I did city rec league basketball in second grade and T-ball in third grade. Fourth through sixth, there was elementary school basketball. I sucked, but there were some gifted players on the team and we were undefeated, or close to it, sixth grade year. I never had talent. I did have a work ethic, though. In eighth grade, puberty kicked in and without any focused effort, as a result of applying a moderate level of innate competitiveness during the weekly runs in PE, I dropped a minute off my mile time. The cross-country coach invited me to try out for the cross country team as a freshman. That provided a good basis of fitness, work ethic and socialization. Tried soccer my sophomore year. I had enough intelligence to figure out how to be OK, but lacked physical talent. I was big and could run, so I could be where I needed to be pretty reliably. It was always fun when another bigger player who was used to using his size would get frustrated by spending a game bouncing off me.

We were outside town, pretty much in the country, so there was a lot of work to do to take care of life. I was pushing the lawnmower around when I was 9, and earning money doing it in the neighbors' yards when I was ten. At that point, I could reliably hit a piece of firewood =/- 1/4 inch with effective power, using the eight-pound splitting maul. I learned how to clean and pack bicycle wheel bearings when I was 11. I learned to drive on a tractor when I was 13. My dad taught me how to use a chain saw safely when I was 14. I had to repair the family pickup so I would have something to drive when I was 16. I assembled trusses and ran a saw the summer I was 18. Not wanting to be there again motivated me to start the career that led me to where I am by applying for internships my freshman year of college. I still have tools my dad gave me for birthdays and Christmases starting in kindergarten.

Looking back, the basic things that sports did for me were provide a foundation of physical fitness, teach me how to work out and how to perform when my body is in pain (which has paid off in peak life experiences like hiking the Grand Canyon and Mt. Whitney), and socialization. That's the other part. I was a nerd, and sports put me in extended contact in a positive way with people who weren't in the honors classes. It really helped me come out of my shell in high school years. It was also fun. But I was never going anywhere due to sports, especially in basketball, even though I was 6'4" by junior year. We had a guy in our town who broke multiple state records for football stats, and would have had a full ride to the bigger state university, but couldn't make the minimum SAT score to be admitted.

On the other hand, I got moved into the "challenge" program in school in fourth grade (much to the relief of the other teachers - and my behavioral issues took care of themselves once there was something that required paying attention to in class), and figured out that I understood math a lot better than most people. In fifth grade, the teacher turned it up and provided real opportunity for a bunch of us going into middle school. She also convinced me that I had the capacity to get out of this little, boring town: that it was on me to do it, that nobody would do it for me, and not to let anybody stand in my way. I worked far harder in academics than I ever did in sports. Academics always came first, and that wasn't ever an actual conflict, because sports were organized through the school. I ended up going to one of the top engineering schools in the country, where they didn't offer sports scholarships.

If I had been strongly directed toward sports by my parents, it would have burned my formative years with something I had very limited capacity to excel in. I never would have had the self-directed time and opportunity to develop my passions and build up the knowledge that allowed me to do what I did during and after college. By high school, I had pretty much figured out what I wanted to do. I wasn't working to get grades because "good grades are good, m'kay?" I was working to learn as much as I could and get top grades so that I could do it.

[drjaydvm]

My 11 year old has played tennis since he was 4. He does a private lesson and several clinics a week. This spring he has middle school team practice 4 days a week. He loves it. If he wanted to travel to tournaments we would make it happen but thankfully he’d rather stay home. We were glad he picked a lifelong sport that we can play with him. I work two weekends out of three so travel sports would be tough to do. My daughter has bounced around, tried tennis, soccer, gymnastics. She currently does dance two days a week and loves it. There is no pressure in our house to have 50 extracurricular activities.

[vcdgrips]

This is a solvable issue: ( I had something more eloquent typed up and lost it)
1. Dump the traveling team
2. See about your undiagnosed ADD/ADHD. With appropriate treatment, you mind will stop racing over what you think you otherwise have to be doing and you will have a much better time watching your daughter.
3. School plus one sport (rec or school team) per season and one other activity is the max i.e. Scouts.
4. Respectfully, it stopped being about you when you had your kids.

I divorced when my kids were 5 ( mostly my fault). I am sure that part of the reason I did all manner of activities with my kids was that it allowed me to see them when I otherwise would not have seen them.

For my Junior son, in all those rec/school teams thru middle school, he learned more about what he did not want to do and pivoted to Scouts, singing and drama. He is an Eagle Scout. We have hiked Philmont, sailed the Keys and camped from 10 degree on 10 inches of snow to 100 degrees in the Ozark heat. We have shared cheesecake and coffee in NYC after his choir sang at Carnegie Hall. He works his ADD ass off for a 3.5 at a college prep HS and will likely go to a small Xian college where he wants to study history/religion, meet a godly woman and teach.

My Senior daughter is the paradigm of executive functioning, a skill she honed balancing sports, school and Girl Scouts. She is deciding between an Ivy and two other Tier One schools. The exposure to multiple sports made her focus on one she had some aptitude for and harnessed the other positive traits that went along with those pursuits.


You have the rest of your life to do lots of things, you have from 0-18 to get your kids on the right path and frankly it’s more like 0-12 based on what I see in my other “real” job. Your daughter is coming to understand you do not want to be out there watching her.
You are the adult, you set the tone. If you want to be there, she will be much more likely to want to be there.

YMMV/FWIW/IMNSHO.

[vcdgrips]

Sorry double post via the smart phone

[JTQ]

1. Dump the traveling team
2. See about your undiagnosed ADD/ADHD. With appropriate treatment, you mind will stop racing over what you think you otherwise have to be doing and you will have a much better time watching your daughter.
3. School plus one sport (rec or school team) per season and one other activity is the max i.e. Scouts.
4. Respectfully, it stopped being about you when you had your kids.

You have the rest of your life to do lots of things, you have from 0-18 to get your kids on the right path and frankly it’s more like 0-12 based on what I see in my other “real” job. Your daughter is coming to understand you do not want to be out there watching her.
You are the adult, you set the tone. If you want to be there, she will be much more likely to want to be there.

YMMV/FWIW/IMNSHO.
Good points.

[Cookie Monster]

And this is why you don’t wait until your mid-forties to start having kids. :) I like to think I’ll be a “young” 62 when my son leaves high school.

I'll be 58 when my boys leave high school. In my sixties, when college ends (if it is still relevant). I am a renewed interest in exercise and health knowing my dudes will be kick my ass for the next 20 or so years. I need to start the Krill Oil.

[NickA]

My 10 year old played a club volleyball tournament this morning, and a rec softball game this afternoon. You really have to just enjoy watching your kid play or it can be maddening. I absolutely hate softball/baseball (for the reasons cited above- it's not going to make them a better athlete, and by design you're doing absolutely nothing 99% of the time) but she loves it so there we are. I've also found youth ball to have the highest quotient of assholes - parents and coaches- by FAR of anything I've ever been involved in.
For example- today's game was forfeited by the other team because only 6 players showed up. We all agreed to go ahead and play a scrimmage anyway, even though it was 50 degrees and windy. Ref had to call the game after one inning because the opposing coach wouldn't quit arguing a ruling (that he was absolutely wrong about). My wife overheard that coach in the parking lot cussing about it, looking up the rule, and heading back to argue some more. Over a game that never even mattered. Something similar seems to happen almost every game, and this is in a church affiliated league.

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[Hambo]

rob_s, I won't presume you need meds, but you really need to chill the fuck out. I know a dude with six kids, the oldest of which is maybe ten and the youngest can't walk. He has the coolest sort of zen going because he cannot possibly worry about every little thing or get everything done. I'm certain you're not going to like this idea, but ask yourself, "If I don't get X done today, what's the worst that will happen?" Usually it's just that you didn't get X done.

Not that I could have articulated this as a kid, but all I really wanted from my parents was a sense of physical security and to know they loved me. If you can give them that, they probably won't care how much money you made or if they took part in every single thing that came down the pike.

Oh, and you can tell whoever is pressuring for a new bat that it won't improve your daughter's hand eye coordination any more than a new gun will make you Rob Leatham. Unless it's your wife and you're thinking about a new pistol, in which case you need a different analogy. ;)

[RevolverRob]

It seems to me that one of the issues here, is that you’re not convinced softball is good for her, in addition to your family. When it was a minor time commitment it was okay, but it is now too much for the (ostensible) benefits.

I think sitting down with the Mrs and your oldest would be a good idea. Discuss with your daughter what she finds compelling about softball and what she doesn’t? It may well be she is doing it for you or mom over herself. Especially, if she shows no enthusasim for it.

I have zero personal experience raising kids with ADHD, but tangential experience with my oldest nephew (8). Team sports, basketball, soccer, and flag football have all been non-starters in helping him be disciplined. At this age, team sports are centered around the 3-4 kids with talent and the position fillers. Not until JV high school will being on a “team” require significant commitment from each individual player. Right now your daughter goes, because you take her, not because she is talented and wants to go, there are a couple of kids who are good and everyone else is chasing their own team.

What has helped my nephew develop discipline, is martial arts (BJJ and taekwondo, both). He is passionate about (his mother is a black belt in taekwondo and his uncle (me) held a blue belt in my youth), and this makes him feel a family connection. AND most importantly, he benefits from one-on-one coaching and training. In a way that volunteer coaches could never provide. He started last year and will test for the green tag on his yellow belt soon, it’s improved his school and personal discipline DRAMATICALLY.

Point is, if your daughter seems bored, you’re bored, switch gears. Maybe your daughter needs a more individualized sport like a martial art. Not too mention, that I’m sure you can view that as more “practical” than softball.

[OlongJohnson]

Good point. A friend's son was a holy terror until he started martial arts. Settled him right down, across the board. FWIW, both parents are brilliant, disciplined and highly accomplished.

[gkieser92]

My oldest son, 12, is really into football and basketball. Unfortunately my youngest, 8, has completely soured on sports from being dragged to big brothers games and having the family revolve around big brothers sports. He has yet to find his own niche, but he thrives more in unstructured activities that unfortunately do not garner the same kind of societal value at a young age.

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[Kanati]

Organized team sports I firmly believe are probably the best thing’s that kids can get involved in. Yeah, the time commitments can be brutal, but the payoff is sooooo well worth it.

We went all in with our daughter, 45 minutes each way to soccer practice 3-4 times a week for a couple seasons, up to 2 hours each way for games. That was one team. Another indoor league ran at the same time; the facility was also about 45 minutes away (EVERYTHING is 45 minutes away in the PA coal region). My son played football which was a MUCH simpler logistics arrangement; we live 3 blocks from the school / field / gym. Fall and spring for a few years we were lucky if the 4 of us were in the same room at the same time, much less actually have a meal together.

Both kids are grown and married now. My son did a 4 year stint on active duty with the Army, he’s now in the CO national guard, and going to school full time. My daughter just re-enlisted for another 4 years in the USAF....(they’re sending her to Avino Italy....made signing the contract a little easier...)I like to think that my wife and I did alright raising them, they’re certinaly not part of the “lost generation” or whatever it’s called anymore. I think years of competing on team sports has had a HUGE impact on the people they have grown to become. They’re tough and resilient, they can both take a punch. They respect authority. They get at a very deep level that life isn’t always fair, and that loosing is as much a part of life as winning is. They’re gracious and courteous, always willing to help someone out. They’re very active people, no lounging around waiting for diabetes to set in. Plus they’re sports fans....which is nice because regardless of anything else, there’s always sports to talk about. I’ll assume that a couple fathers of son’s here can relate to that.

Yeah, the logistics were a challenge for a while, I look at them now and see that it was all worth it.

[rob_s]

My father never gave a damn about anything I ever did. He never showed up at any of the events I was involved in, ever. It wasn't because my parents were divorced, it would have been better if they had been, He just didn't give a shit. My mother wasn't much better in her own way. If it was something she loved, then it was a hundred percent. If not, it was as if I didn't exist. At one point I was on track for the Olympics, but you never would have known it around our house.

I didn't want my children to have that memory of looking up in the stands and knowing no one was there for them. You think I wanted to spend my Saturday off sitting at a track and field event, a basketball game or a wrestling match? Hell no, but I wanted to be there for them, that's what I was doing with myself. Today, they're in their twenties and thirties and they tell people how they knew I didn't want to be there, but I was anyway and how much that meant to them. That's my reward.

I find it interesting the shit people carry around with them about their childhoods. I sort of *assume* my dad was "at all my games" but I frankly don't remember one way or the other.

One thing that went a long way towards me forgiving whatever minimal baggage I was carrying around about my own parents pretty much evaporated over the first few years with kids. Our kid, for example, could grow up and have an issue with "my dad only ever came to the last game of the day", but whatever issue that may turn into is almost entirely because her mom and I weren't on the same page with signing up for this shit to begin with. That's the kind of thing that I may have held a grudge about when I was 25, but at 43 I've moved on.

I find my parents behavior as they age far more disturbing than anything they "did to me" as a kid.

[rob_s]

4. Respectfully, it stopped being about you when you had your kids.

You have the rest of your life to do lots of things, you have from 0-18 to get your kids on the right path and frankly it’s more like 0-12 based on what I see in my other “real” job. Your daughter is coming to understand you do not want to be out there watching her.
You are the adult, you set the tone. If you want to be there, she will be much more likely to want to be there.



I actually don't think it's terribly respectful at all. you seem like a sports parent that's a little upset that I'm not down with your particular activity of choice and are making a whole bunch of assumptions about our lifestyle because *you* think sportsball matters and *I* don't.

What's getting left out of a lot of this is the impact on the other kid. I frankly think it's bullshit that we're all dashing around the county for an entire weekend all for one member of a four person family. If it's not about me and it's about the kids (something I frankly don't agree with either, at least not at face value of the statement) what about the other kid?

[rob_s]

So replying to every single post, here's the update from yesterday.

Wife took daughter to rec game at 9 am. I went straight to the workshop to work on fixing the kids' go kart. Younger daughter sat inside watching tv. Wife came home around 10:30 to re-set for next game(s). I stayed in shop and worked on the garage cabinets that wife wants finished. Her and older girl left around 12:30 for afternoon of travel games (supposed to be 1:30, 4:30 and 6:30, more on that in a moment). The intent was that little one and I were going to meet them at the field for the 4:30 game, then wife and little one were going to come home and I was going to stay through the rest of the night.

Well, win one for the volunteer organization (although I'm starting to suspect this whole thing is a racket, but that remains to be seen) and the 4:30 game couldn't start until 5:30 because... bad management basically. I got annoyed (I was basically cleaned up and putting on my shoes and had little one dressed and ready to go when I got the word of "no rush, game before ours just started at our time slot"), but rallied and took the little one out for dinner and mini golf before meeting up at the field at ~7 which is when the 6:30 game actually started. It was all over and we were back home by 9 pm at which point the kids passed out and wife and I sat on patio having a nightcap, discussing the day and the plans going forward, and arguing about home decor, all until 1 AM. We got up today at 7 and wife and the girls were on the road by 8:15 to whatever today has in store. I am, again, headed to the workshop to continue on cabinets and potentially meeting up with them later.

All of that said, some takeaways (some of which were my original reasons for starting this thread)...


none of this is "fair" to the little one. We have to find ways to make sure she's getting attention and having someone to play with as well. We discussed trying to get her together with other kids when the older one is at a game. yesterday, for example, she could have had a friend over all morning and gotten a chance to play without her sister butting in and it wouldn't have impacted anyone else in the family.
the organization skills suck. This is clearly just par for the course, and we have to figure out a way to deal with it. That said, we got all ready to go yesterday just to hear "wait", and then sat around for an hour. Not cool. Need to come up with ways to keep ourselves occupied that are flexible enough to deal with poor management
the game wasn't half bad. The other team for the game I saw annihilated our misfits. That said, my girl got a hit, stopped-ish a few balls out there where she was at in right field, etc.
my kid seems to at least be focusing more at the travel games. Maybe it's the intensity being ramped up across the board by the coaches, parents and (most importantly) other players that's getting her to knuckle down and focus. She got a two-run RBI yesterday in their first game, and stole home in a different inning.
I really don't care to watch other people's kids. I'm not interested in sportsbal in any way myself so I only care to watch my kid. That plays into the borebom and lack of attention span.
I really do like watching my kid. There again, makes me wish we were involved in a sport not a game so there was more for her to do and more for us to care about.
some of these people are nuts. Wife told me that the coach in the first game got ejected. and y'all think *I* need meds?
all of my "me time" is still just family time. It's not like I was sitting around yesterday watching the masters and jerking off. I spent the morning working on the go kart, lunchtime going to pick up parts for the go kart, the rest of the day working on the house, and the evening hanging out with my other kid, followed by a night at the field. I didn't mind most of it, other than the fucking off here and there waiting around. At some point in every family everyone needs their own alone thing and each individual pair needs some time away from everyone else. I really enjoyed the shit out of the mini golf outing with the little one, and she did too.
I get that I may need to "chill out" and not be so time sensitive, but that's just not going to happen. So rather than tell the leopard to change it's spots (especially when those spots are so well suited to my professional life) I am going to have to find ways to cope with the boredom, bad management, shitty other parents, and general fucktardery of "organized" sports.
Our commodity is time. We are fortunate enough to live a pretty good life, not generally worrying about what things cost or whether a check is going to bounce or how we're going to pay for the groceries and the mortgage. I realize that not a lot of people have that. And for those that don't, the commodity tends to be money so they are happy filling the "free" time with... whatever. But the way you make money is to spend time, and that means that while we may be able to afford a decent life, that means a job that is time-consuming and that doesn't stop when I'm not in the office. Lots of jobs are such that you're paid for your presence. Mine isn't. I'm paid to innovate for our company, improve efficiency, mentor, manage, and train people and help direct the company as a whole. There is no time card for that, and there it doesn't stop when I'm not "working". Even a guy that's working 12 hour shift work has a start and end to that work. I see already in the other parents, at least on our team, that everyone I've talked with or gotten a sense of what they do is a timecard guy. Most of them seem, quite literally, to have no place else to be and nothing else to do, which isn't the case for our family. I'm going to have to figure out how to make a 24/7 job (we joke that we don't get vacations, we just get deferred work) work with a system run by timecard people.



The best news I heard all day yesterday was the wife said "look, if she's not getting any better after this season, we'll just stick to rec next season".

[PT Doc]

For the overwhelming majority of kids, athletics will not be a path to a free ride to college. Kids shouldn't specialize in one sport year round, despite what the travel/club coach tells you. Injury rate, burnout and overall lack of athletic development all increase with one trick ponies.

For learning life lessons such as commitment, teamwork, sportsmanship, the particular sport doesn't matter nearly as much as how the parents and coaches approach the game and relate to the players.

I'm a firm believer in competition and keeping score, but we as parents have come to place way too much emphasis on winning at all costs, at way too early an age. Your 9 year old does not care about his batting average with two strikes against left handed pitchers. He cares about having fun with his friends, did you support him and what's for post game snack.

I do some sports medicine for a high school that is a national power in football and competes annually for state championships in every varsity sport. We have kids being "redshirted" and held back a year in school, so they can be bigger and stronger than their peers. This occurs from kindergarten through middle school. 8 year olds who have off season conditioning at facilities that surpass many colleges. The youth programs feed the beast and the parents do whatever is necessary to keep up with the Joneses. The problem is WAY too many parents believe their kid is elite. They aren't. Despite the fact that you payed 1-5k per season, so they can play on a travel team that is called ___ Elite and traveled to Disney World for the ____ World Championship.

Sorry for the rant. I'll get off my soapbox now. I need to go email my 10 year olds rec league lacrosse coach and tell him my son has Jiu-jitsu tomorrow and we can't make it to the last minute scrimmage he scheduled an hour away. Because the playoffs are a month away and the kids missed getting in work last week due to Spring Break.



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[Casual Friday]

Organized team sports I firmly believe are probably the best thing’s that kids can get involved in. Yeah, the time commitments can be brutal, but the payoff is sooooo well worth it.

We went all in with our daughter, 45 minutes each way to soccer practice 3-4 times a week for a couple seasons, up to 2 hours each way for games. That was one team. Another indoor league ran at the same time; the facility was also about 45 minutes away (EVERYTHING is 45 minutes away in the PA coal region). My son played football which was a MUCH simpler logistics arrangement; we live 3 blocks from the school / field / gym. Fall and spring for a few years we were lucky if the 4 of us were in the same room at the same time, much less actually have a meal together.

Both kids are grown and married now. My son did a 4 year stint on active duty with the Army, he’s now in the CO national guard, and going to school full time. My daughter just re-enlisted for another 4 years in the USAF....(they’re sending her to Avino Italy....made signing the contract a little easier...)I like to think that my wife and I did alright raising them, they’re certinaly not part of the “lost generation” or whatever it’s called anymore. I think years of competing on team sports has had a HUGE impact on the people they have grown to become. They’re tough and resilient, they can both take a punch. They respect authority. They get at a very deep level that life isn’t always fair, and that loosing is as much a part of life as winning is. They’re gracious and courteous, always willing to help someone out. They’re very active people, no lounging around waiting for diabetes to set in. Plus they’re sports fans....which is nice because regardless of anything else, there’s always sports to talk about. I’ll assume that a couple fathers of son’s here can relate to that.

Yeah, the logistics were a challenge for a while, I look at them now and see that it was all worth it.

If my kids were grown and the only thing I had to talk to them about was sports, I'd consider that a major failure on my part as a parent.

What makes you so sure your kids wouldn't have become all those things without a ridiculous sports schedule? Why can't those things be instilled in kids at home? If a team sport is necessary to turn kids into productive members of society I think there's something missing at home. That's not a jab at you, that's a general statement about society.

This is coming from a Dad who spends hours a week at his kids Jiu Jitsu classes. I don't doubt that sports are good for kids to play, my kids benefit from it a lot, I'm just not buying it takes sports to make kids into great people.

[JTQ]

For the overwhelming majority of kids,...


You have a good understanding of how this works.

[Trooper224]

Every single person I know who got no parent support for their “thing” in the teen years intensely remembers that their parent did not give a crap. That memory stays. With whatever faults my parents had, I will always cherish the fact that they actively participated in everything from baseball, soccer, Indian Guides and Boy Scouts. When I watch the Olympics, many of those sports not only highlight the athlete, but an insane level of parental support, time and effort.

That was the least of his transgressions but yes, those things stick with you. As parents, we need to remember that even the smallest things we do can have an impact on our kids. I dealt with my demons a long time ago, but there was an army of them. I come from a long line of abusive alcoholics and I was determined to break that chain with my kids. I didn't want them to reach adulthood with the same childhood memories I have. Thankfully I married a great woman, she made all the difference. That's enough dumping out of the man purse. :)

[JSGlock34]

From what I understand, travel hockey is even worse.

Travel hockey is all consuming, but I find it to be an exceptionally disciplined youth sport. The reason is ice time, which is expensive and finite. You can't just skate in an open field or vacant parking lot. The coaches are trained to maximize use of ice time (USA Hockey has a required instructional model and coaches must be certified to take the ice). There's really little standing around at practice, and practice starts and finishes on time because the Zamboni is going to come out to get the ice ready for the next session. Standing around and talking occurs in the locker room because you don't need a sheet of ice to stand around and talk. The constant movement in practice ensures there's little opportunity for day dreaming or horseplay. Occasionally a game goes long due to whistles and throws things off, but it is rare.

The NHL seems involved in supporting local youth hockey in ways that I never remember from sports in my formative years. Last year they paid for the gear for kids in their first year of the sport. Skates, helmets, sticks, everything. Players come out to support a practice each season. The youngest kids get a chance to play a (really) short game in between periods at a NHL game, which is a cool experience.

And just to note, I don't play hockey, never did. I can barely skate. My kid chose the sport, not me (a story in itself). I just supported his interest. One of the best decisions I ever made.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've seen too many college student athletes be so focused on sports, such that their academics fail. I am not a fan of such intensive involvement. Sports for fitness and enjoyment are great. Team involvement in college is not a way I would go. One should also research the pitfalls of athletic scholarships - they are full of bait and switch tactics, abuse and kids who do not get a good education. See if you can search www.chronicle.com for some discussions of the problem.

Sure, someone will bring up Kid X who can do it all. Most don't. I don't know if this applies to anyone here but the situation is especially grim for minority students. They are used as PR instruments and fund raisers for the school. I'll skip a long list of anecdotes. Just one - kid gets 38 on the Intro Psych test. That takes real talent. It isn't a hard course if you study. His reason - practice 4 hours a day.

My father was into sports. He was an NBA referee and college ref, also. He was president of the college ref association for a bit. He knew what happened to kids. He told me: Don't go into athletics (like I could - haha). Study!!

My college's coaches knew me and said - 'Hey, your not like your, Dad.' I agreed, I became a scientist.

My bottom line is that over involvement can detract from education, so watch out for that.

My dad also said: "Never trust a coach". Yeah, good ol' Pop Coachavitz might be ok. In today's world - not so such about that.

[RevolverRob]

Five important lessons I learned from team sports (club-level soccer), that could be learned in almost any competitive activity -

1) How to lose. My first year (8 or 9 yo), my team lost every single game. Losing is an important life skill.

2) How to not be a loser. One time our team was being annihilated, I think the score was 5-0 or 6-1 or something like that. I was slowly walking down the sideline staring at the ground, dejected, not paying attention to the game that I was technically in. We'd lost 6 games in a row. My dad, seeing this came out of the stands and jogged up to me and said, "Hey, get your head up and play." "But we've lost..." "Doesn't matter if you win or lose, you don't play like a loser. You play until it's over and don't give up. Get your head up and get your ass in gear and play."

3) That over-commitment is a reality for all parents, but it's the support that matters. My dad wasn't there for my two biggest games, the only game I ever took a shot on goal in (I never scored), and a championship tie-breaker. He worked, on average, 60 hours a week. Despite not being there, I'm not bitter about it, in the least. He always took time to take me to practice, to come to games with my mom, and so on. I knew he wanted to be there, whether he was or not, same for my mother.

4) How to win, gracefully. After my first year, I switched teams. After that, three time club champions, two years we went undefeated. That's a way to swell a kid's ego. We were unstoppable soccer slaughter machines...well some of us. Some of us (me) were position fillers with a couple of decent skills (tackling other kids and passing the ball to strikers). My coach and parents, made sure to keep my ego in check and my realities grounded. The best thing my parents ever did, when I was a kid, was remind me that, "There is always someone better than you, at something, out there. You'll never be the best at everything you do." And that I had to accept winning as gracefully as I did losing.

5) How to be aggressive in an increasingly docile world. Arguably this came from multiple areas in life, but I learned how to be aggressive in competition. Not overly-competitive, mind you, but not timid. Not afraid to slide tackle another kid, shove them out of the way for the ball, run them down. I had several yellow and red cards. And I think playing sports is like anything else, if someone isn't mad at you for playing "too hard", then you aren't doing it right, just like if someone isn't mad at you for working "too hard", you aren't doing it right. No one can be liked by everyone and a little rivalry and challenge is good for everyone.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Those are good points. My caution is :

1. The kids who get hyperinvolved. That parallels the kid who loses his or her self in video games or a cause - such that education fails.
2. The kids who are exploited by the colleges. The downward problem are the poor kids who strive to get the athletic scholarships and don't study in K-12 school. Parents need to make sure that doesn't happen.

I could also mention the diversion of funds in higher education, but blah, blah. Rah, Rah! I once had a kid tell me that he couldn't do a project as he had practice. So I said, I would call up Coach and get him excused from practice. Guess, what - he dropped the course. Surprise!

[Mitch]

I find my parents behavior as they age far more disturbing than anything they "did to me" as a kid.

God, me too. I’m starting to wonder if my grandparents were this big of a pain in their asses.


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[Shellback]

I love volunteering to coach my kids. 2 years of hockey, 3 years of soccer, and 2 years of wrestling so far for kid #1 with a lot of years left to go. Wrestling is by far his favorite and mine. And then there's 2 more younger ones with my middle son starting kindergarten kick about (soccer) in 2 weeks, which I'll be coaching.

Thru coaching I've gotten to know my son's peers, other coaches, parents, and am involved in our community. Somedays it's a huge pain in the ass and other days it couldn't be more rewarding.

3 years ago I was coaching soccer with a guy I'd never met in my life. A little Jewish gastroenterologist who I first met and just kinda giggled to myself about how different two coaches could be. Now, he's one of my best friends, our wives are super tight, and all of our kids get along amazingly. You couldn't meet more amazing people and it wouldn't have happened without being involved.

I could offer more but time to hang up the internet for the day. www.changingthegameproject.com is a good site to check out if you're interested in kids sports.

[JAD]

@VCD, I’m proud of your Eagle Scout. I hope he’s thinking about Atchison.