Magazine Capacity Court Issues

[VT1032]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this. If it's not here, feel free to move it.

Vermont will likely have a "high capacity" magazine ban passed in the coming weeks, but if we already have them, they will be grandfathered. I know we have quite a few lawyers and experts on here, in addition to people who live in ban states so I'm hoping to get some perspective.

If such a law is passed, do you think carrying with a grandfathered "high capacity" magazine would represent a liability in court that the opposing counsel could come after you for? Is there any case law involving this from current ban states?

I'm debating whether I should go all in on a lifetime supply of G19 mags or look at transitioning to another platform such as the M&P45. If carrying with said high capacity mags is going to represent a significant liability, I'm inclined to look harder at the latter solution, but I really would like stick to my current setup. Perhaps I'm overthinking this, but I've really been blindsided by this. Vermont previously wouldn't touch gun control, but in the last few weeks, legislation that wouldn't have gotten a hearing in the past has zoomed through the legislature at lightning pace, with little public input.

[4gallonbucket]

This is really sad. With everything else going on, I have not heard anything else about it.
Just read a cringe-worthy quote, from an "-R" no less:
from WCAX.com

Opponents have been hoping Gov. Phil Scott would come out against the ban but he reiterated Tuesday that he supports it if Vermont businesses are protected. He says limiting capacity size will limit damage in mass shooting situations. "I think having the capacity of a 30-round clip versus a 10-round clip is drastic. It's three times the size. You can do a lot of damage with that extra size," said Scott, R-Vermont.

People are losing their minds.

[VT1032]

Yeah, it sucks. My dad actually went to high school with him and knows him pretty well and I've met him a few times. Prior to becoming governor he seemed like the last guy that would back this stuff, but since being elected, this isn't the only thing he's flopped on. Really dissapointing.

[Kukuforguns]

There are two different legal systems you need to be worried about, criminal and civil.

In the civil context, if you use your weapon and are later sued by the person (or the person's family) you shot, the plaintiff's lawyer will definitely attempt to characterize you in a negative light. If VT statutorily defines your magazines as large capacity magazines, the lawyer will at every opportunity use the phrase "large capacity magazine" and criticize you for using a large capacity magazine in an attempt to prejudice the jury against you. The plaintiff's lawyer will also try to characterize you as dangerous because you chose to carry a gun in public. If your car has a bumper sticker, the lawyer will try to use that to prejudice the jury against you (I have personally done this). Once the attorney makes the decision to take the case, that attorney will spend countless hours trying to find ways to make you appear like a deranged killer. The only way to avoid this outcome is to never do anything that could get you sued.

In the criminal context, using a large capacity magazine (if you have accurately described the law) will play little to no factor in determining whether the state will file a criminal case against you. However, once the state decides to file criminal charges against you, the prosecutor will act very similarly to the plaintiff's lawyer described above. The prosecutor may be more interested in "justice" than a plaintiff's lawyer, but there's no guarantee of this.

This is never the kind of answer people want to hear when they ask questions like this.

If you are ever in a situation in which you need to use your weapon, the chances of you being able to continue with a normal life plummet. Knowing this, you have to make some difficult choices now while you are totally unaware of what the future will look like. You have to choose whether you will carry a weapon or trust in the goodness of all humanity you will meet in the future. You have to choose what weapon you will carry and balance between utility and perception.

You're asking the right questions, but there is no "right" answer.

[Kyle Reese]

This is really sad. With everything else going on, I have not heard anything else about it.
Just read a cringe-worthy quote, from an "-R" no less:
from WCAX.com


People are losing their minds.He's just channeling his inner Cuomo.

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[WobblyPossum]

I just read the amendment to the bill as passed by the house. They defined large capacity ammunition devices as >10 rounds for long guns and >15 rounds for handguns. If this same language passes the senate, you’ll still be able to buy G19 mags.

I’m not sure how to actually go about enforcing the restrictions. Most AR mags I’ve seen have date stamps but handgun magazines don’t. How can one prove whether a handgun magazine was acquired after the ban came into place?

I agree with the previous poster’s comments about a potential trial. If the attorney on the other side is allowed to bring up a point that makes you look bad, they will. You’ll likely be characterized as a blood thirsty killer toting large capacity magazines, grandfathered or not.


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My posts only represent my opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of my employer. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

[VT1032]

I just read the amendment to the bill as passed by the house. They defined large capacity ammunition devices as >10 rounds for long guns and >15 rounds for handguns. If this same language passes the senate, you’ll still be able to buy G19 mags.

I’m not sure how to actually go about enforcing the restrictions. Most AR mags I’ve seen have date stamps but handgun magazines don’t. How can one prove whether a handgun magazine was acquired after the ban came into place?

I agree with the previous poster’s comments about a potential trial. If the attorney on the other side is allowed to bring up a point that makes you look bad, they will. You’ll likely be characterized as a blood thirsty killer toting large capacity magazines, grandfathered or not.


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My posts only represent my opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of my employer. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

This is really what I'm afraid of. Being somewhat familiar with self defense case law and litigation, I can totally see the potential for an opposing attorney to use this against you. That's really good to know about the handgun magazines though. I can stick with my G19's afterall. It's a temporary solution anyway, I don't plan on staying here in the long term. I wanted to leave already, but this just makes things even easier.

One thing I found really fascinating as I looked into this was just how many of our state legislators are not originally from Vermont. Of the ones I looked at, I found far more who moved here from out of state then were native born. I really do think this at least in part explains Vermont's turn to the left over the last 20-30 years.

Regarding enforcement, you really can't enforce it unless the magazine has a date on it, but it really amounts to a defacto ban on new types of guns for me if their mags weren't available prior to whatever arbitrary date this goes into effect.

[Larry Sellers]

We have this in CT....any magazines owned prior to 4/2013 are grandfathered. However those magazines may only be loaded to 10 rounds for carry etc in the weapon they were initially purchased for. In my case I have over 25 glock 17, 17 round magazines registered to me yet no Glock 17 in the safe. As others have said, 10 rounds in a magazine designed for 10 rounds may be the way to go (think glock 26). It stinks, unfortunately this is the reality we've been facing here for about 5 years now. Here's hoping you don't feel the same pain.

[VT1032]

We have this in CT....any magazines owned prior to 4/2013 are grandfathered. However those magazines may only be loaded to 10 rounds for carry etc in the weapon they were initially purchased for. In my case I have over 25 glock 17, 17 round magazines registered to me yet no Glock 17 in the safe. As others have said, 10 rounds in a magazine designed for 10 rounds may be the way to go (think glock 26).

I wonder how they thought they would enforce the whole only allowing magazines in the weapon they came with thing...

10 round mags in a 10 round gun was my thought too. I was looking at moving to M&P45's for that reason, but seeing as how the bill apparently has been ammended to allow 15rnd mags for handguns, I'll stick with my G19's... Luckily. I saw the writing on the wall after the Sandy Hook panic buying so I've now got more AR mags than I'll ever use, but I may need to look into a shotgun for home defense for the same liability reasons. Really, I just need to get out of this state most post haste...

[Larry Sellers]

I wonder how they thought they would enforce the whole only allowing magazines in the weapon they came with thing...

10 round mags in a 10 round gun was my thought too. I was looking at moving to M&P45's for that reason, but seeing as how the bill apparently has been ammended to allow 15rnd mags for handguns, I'll stick with my G19's... Luckily. I saw the writing on the wall after the Sandy Hook panic buying so I've now got more AR mags than I'll ever use, but I may need to look into a shotgun for home defense for the same liability reasons. Really, I just need to get out of this state most post haste...This is the same state that charges an exit tax. They're also over 2 years behind in entering private weapons transfers. There are troopers on the job up here whose weapons they carry off duty aren't even registered to them because of a glitch in the system. I'm not too concerned about the state of Connecticut and their attention to detail

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[Peally]

Who date stamps magazines? Quick trip over the border and buy em when you need em.

[Larry Sellers]

I don't see any on my glock or mec gar beretta mags. I was under the impression that Magpul did some sort of date stamp on their PMAGS?

[VT1032]

Who date stamps magazines? Quick trip over the border and buy em when you need em.

This is true, but by the letter of the law is illegal. It bans importation. The other thing, as I mentioned above, is new guns that come out in the future. If the magazine clearly wasn't available pre-ban because the gun didn't exist pre-ban, you're SOL. Not a huge problem for me as I'm mostly a glock guy, but nonetheless a problem. While it still sucks, changing the limit to 15 for handguns alleviates most of my personal problems that this would cause.

[OlongJohnson]

You mean you guys don't all have file folders with receipts for every gun-related thing you've ever bought?

There's another potential issue on the downloading requirement for magazines, and that's the question of how many shots were fired. If you have eight rounds in your gun after a shooting, but they come up with a witness who will testify that some number greater than three was fired, that's a whole 'nother mess to clean up.

Also, having not read the law, can you load ten in the magazine, feed one into the chamber, and then top off the magazine to ten? Or are you limited to ten in the gun?

[Larry Sellers]

You mean you guys don't all have file folders with receipts for every gun-related thing you've ever bought?

There's another potential issue on the downloading requirement for magazines, and that's the question of how many shots were fired. If you have eight rounds in your gun after a shooting, but they come up with a witness who will testify that some number greater than three was fired, that's a whole 'nother mess to clean up.

Also, having not read the law, can you load ten in the magazine, feed one into the chamber, and then top off the magazine to ten? Or are you limited to ten in the gun?Speaking for CT you can have 10+1 unless you're home or the range then you can load them to capacity if applicable

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[Stephanie B]

Why are Vermonters letting flatlanders write their laws?


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[Alembic]

Here is an update from a local Vt friend.

I read it to imply, magazines are to be grandfathered.
Please read and come to your own conclusion.

"Wednesday morning the House Judiciary Committee passed S.55 out of the committee 6-5 vote.
S.55 now contains: 1. the Mandatory Background Check; 2.the restriction on purchase of rifles and shotgun by those under 21 years; 3. MAGAZINE BAN and 4. Ban on 'bump stocks"
The bill as passed by house judiciary maybe be viewed below. The gun control section begins on Page 6, Line 5.

The Magazine Ban begins on Page 10, Line 10.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/committee/document/2018/18/Date/3-21-2018#documents-section

[Mike C]

2.the restriction on purchase of rifles and shotgun by those under 21 years

How's that work? You can buy a long gun out of state, seems kind of stupid unless they already made it unlawful to bring one into the state as a non FFL holder.

[OlongJohnson]

Without double checking, I believe the federal allowance for buying a long gun out of state applies only when the gun is legal in your jurisdiction of residence.

[Mike C]

Without double checking, I believe the federal allowance for buying a long gun out of state applies only when the gun is legal in your jurisdiction of residence.

I’m with you. What I was getting at if it is legal to own in your jurisdiction but state law prevents you from buying in state due to age but federal law does not; how does that prevent someone from bringing a legally purchased gun out of state in? Unless there is already a law prohibiting such. It just doesn’t seem well thought out is all, my thoughts were poorly put together. Maybe I should keep my brain dead comments to myself tonight. Not enough sleep apparently, maybe I need to up the caffeine intake.