Professional Instructor Says I'm Gripping Too Hard With My Right Hand.

[Cypher]

I got a chance recently to do some training with a professional instructor. He stood behind me and critiqued my shooting and told me that all my shots were to the left. He said it indicated I was gripping too hard with my Right hand. He walked away before I could ask but how do I train myself to grip less?

Should I take my stance and grip and loosen up before I shoot? How do I quantify "too tight"?

[blues]

I got a chance recently to do some training with a professional instructor. He stood behind me and critiqued my shooting and told me that all my shots were to the left. He said it indicated I was gripping too hard with my Right hand. He walked away before I could ask but how do I train myself to grip less?

Should I take my stance and grip and loosen up before I shoot? How do I quantify "too tight"?

Seems like it would be easy enough, via trial and error, to try out various levels of grip tension from crushing grip all the way down to the weak-kneed handshake of effete gun control advocates. Put several rounds on target and see which level of tension promoted the most accuracy.

I'll bill you.

;)

[LSP552]

It’s so hard to diagnose over the Internet, but here are a couple of thoughts. Squeezing too hard with the strong hand can make it difficult to isolate the trigger press. It can also lead to squeezing the entire hand while pressing the trigger.

Having said that, are you shooting a Glock? If so, FOR ME, I find I reduce the left thing by focusing my grip more front to back than side to side. Some of this is a function of hand size and shape.

In general, especially for non-Glocks, hitting left is almost always more trigger press than grip related. Having said that, grip and trigger press can interact with negative results.

Next trip, I’d try just gripping firmly and focusing on isolating the trigger press. It seems that everyone believes they need a death grip to shoot well, they don’t.

[feudist]

Are you, uh, right handed?

[GuanoLoco]

Crushing grip with weak hand, lesser grip with strong hand or your trigger finger will bind up and you lose trigger finger speed. This is easily demonstrated with a Bill Drill (Draw + 6 shots at 7 yards).

I'm not sure that an overly firm strong hand grip and failing to pull the trigger straight back independent of grip are necessarily correlated, but it seems possible.

[pangloss]

Many here are much more qualified to respond than I am, but I've found that gripping a lot harder with my support hand has helped me. Like LSP552, I try to focus my strong hand on applying front to back pressure and crushing side to side with my support hand. Also, camming my support hand wrist forward to the point of it being uncomfortable helps my shooting. I arrived it this grip after I got my PX4 and had to adjust from my normal Glock grip. This grip gives me a steady front sight during DA dry fire. When I shot live fire like this, it was the first time I was able to track my sights during recoil, so it definitely seems to work for me. A night or two ago, I watched a YouTube video by John Lovell on rolling out the support arm elbow. I've not been to the range since seeing that video, but I think that might be a good technique to help further stabilize the gun. I'll look for the link later tonight.

[HopetonBrown]

What's a "professional instructor" in this instance?

[Drang]

Did you pay him?

[blues]

Did you pay him?

Hopefully he walked away before he could pay him. ;)

[CCT125US]

I am also asking for the definition of professional instructor. Anyone worth while would help correct, not just critisize. Keep in mind, just because they are paid, does not make them professional. And there a many professional money takers. But that is just my jaded opinion..

[Clusterfrack]

Should I take my stance and grip and loosen up before I shoot? How do I quantify "too tight"?

Don’t do that. Changing your grip right before you shoot isn’t going to take you in the right direction.

Too tight is when you can’t pull the trigger right, or your hand shakes. Work in dryfire on pulling the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights at all.

[41magfan]

Cooper used to say (and I'm paraphrasing) that a "professional" is someone who does something as an occupation. An "expert" is someone who does something well, whether he gets paid for it or not.

There are lots of professionals out there and being an expert is a relative term. The uninitiated are too often easily impressed by much of anything resembling either one.

[GJM]

These discussions need to start with a yes/no question, and that is are we discussing a Glock.

If we are discussing a Glock, first thing is how much finger are you using on the trigger. If shots are deviating, try more or less, as it really does depend on the individual.

[Larry T]

I found this very helpful. Doesn't require a death grip and really torques the palm heels into the grip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TDZIFrPGuo

[Cypher]

These discussions need to start with a yes/no question, and that is are we discussing a Glock.

If we are discussing a Glock, first thing is how much finger are you using on the trigger. If shots are deviating, try more or less, as it really does depend on the individual.

We are discussing a Glock19.

[Cypher]

Cooper used to say (and I'm paraphrasing) that a "professional" is someone who does something as an occupation. An "expert" is someone who does something well, whether he gets paid for it or not.

There are lots of professionals out there and being an expert is a relative term. The uninitiated are too often easily impressed by much of anything resembling either one.

This guy is a competent instructor who has worked with me for a couple of years. He was standing right there when I shot and he said my shots were consistent but Left.

[HopetonBrown]

So I don't know what competent instructor means or what distance we're talking about, but shooting left could be finger placement or a lame support hand grip.

[Cypher]

I am also asking for the definition of professional instructor. Anyone worth while would help correct, not just critisize. Keep in mind, just because they are paid, does not make them professional. And there a many professional money takers. But that is just my jaded opinion..

I find some of these assumptions annoying. This guy is a competent instructor. He has been training my church security team for about four years. He was training several people at once.

[HCountyGuy]

I find some of these assumptions annoying. This guy is a competent instructor. He has been training my church security team for about four years. He was training several people at once.

Nobody's assuming anything. They're going off the information you've provided us so far.

Instructor tells you that your problem is "X" but then walks off before you can ask for clarification and from your question here obviously did not instruct you on how to fix the issue. Hence why some folks question how suitable an instructor the person is.

You can needlessly get bent out of shape when folks here rightfully question his competency or credentials, or you can answer what makes this guy so qualified.

Or you can go pay him more money to tell you what you're kittening up without helping you fix the issue. It's your money.

[GJM]

What happens when you shoot right and left hand only?

[CCT125US]

I find some of these assumptions annoying. This guy is a competent instructor. He has been training my church security team for about four years. He was training several people at once.

Understand we don't have much to work with beyond what was stated. Shooting left could be the result of many things. The instructor could have offered up a number of solutions and coached you through, but as you stated he walked away without further assistance. If the gun is properly zeroed, hitting left, simply indicates the shot is breaking when the gun is misaligned. What causes this misalignment needs explored. You stated he "told" you that you are shooting left. Was this not apparent to you? Are you finishing flat at the break? What does the gun do in dry fire? Can you discern muzzle movement during dry fire? What distance? What target size? How far left? What is your group size? Does the issue present itself in slow fire, rapid fire, or both? Are you slapping the trigger? Staging it? Are you right or left handed?

[CCT125US]

Double post

[Coyotesfan97]

I’m guessing he didn’t shoot your pistol, before walking off, to verify whether it was you or the gun?

[YVK]

There are two things that I don't understand here:

First, how the instructor determined that excessive strong hand pressure is the cause, vs any other cause.

Second, how excessive strong hand pressure can cause that at all. If sights are aligned and pressure is consistent throughout trigger pull, what exactly is happening to push the muzzle sideways? I can understand how variable strong hand pressure during trigger press can do it, such as in sympathetic hand squeeze. Squeeze all fingers as you squeezing trigger finger, throw the shot in opposite direction, a classic mistake. Consistent strong hand force application, weak or strong, that I don't understand.

Posted as food for thought.

[Cypher]

I’m guessing he didn’t shoot your pistol, before walking off, to verify whether it was you or the gun?

That is something I've been thinking about. I think it's best that I go back to this guy who can be right there evaluating and ask him to try the gun out and see if it's me or the sights.

The circumstances were we were doing an exercise where you had to run up to the target line and do the El Presidente drill. I don't think I took enough time to be sure of my sight picture and I really wasn't focusing on where I was hitting.

Even so the instructor said I was hitting consistently to the left. There were other people behind me so I did my rotation and let the next guy go

[DocGKR]

Doubt it is your strong hand grip--check out how strongly Robert Vogel grips his Glocks in this AAR from one of his courses a few years ago:


A good grip is crucial for controlling the gun. Vogel wants as high a grip as possible on the pistol--preferably a pistol with a low bore-axis. He squeezes/pinches the pistol with his strong hand, not just grabbing it, and really gets his knuckles hard up against the underside of the trigger guard. Even more important than the strong hand grip, he emphasizes that the support hand grip is the key to fully controlling the pistol. Vogel’s support hand technique is different than anyone I have trained with. He uses the standard thumbs forward position, but places the support hand as far forward and as high up on the pistol as possible. His support hand is gripping harder than his strong hand. In addition, he is applying a strong opposing torque toward the frame with each hand. I was shocked at how much force he was applying against the pistol--he commented that he grips almost to the point where his hands begin to shake. As a result of these factors, he does not subscribe to the typical emphasis on a 360 degree wrap around with the weak hand. In fact, just the base of the support hand thumb is in contact with frame/upper pistol grip of the pistol near the slide, resulting in a gap existing between the rest of the support hand and the lower half of the pistol butt. He mentioned that this aggressive hand positioning sometimes presses against the slide release and prevents the slide from locking back on the last shot; a trade-off he is willing to accept for the faster flatter shooting this technique offers him. In order to improve his hand strength, Vogel uses the Captain’s of Crush hand grippers. He recommended starting with the #1 and working up to #3. He emphasized that these are not casual workouts, but that when done correctly, they are intense and uncomfortable.

[rathos]

I have had similar issues with the 19. It is due to the hump on the back of the handle and the size of my hand (my hands are on the smaller side). I grip hard enough that I get bruises in the palm of my hand when I train with the gun. Depending on how it is grabbed bullets can go left or right depending on where the hump ends up in my palm. Flat face triggers help as I can correct it somewhat by moving my finger closer in or further out. I have also found I don't have this issue on 19's where the hump is removed. Due to policy we cannot modify duty guns (or guns we carry under color of authority off duty) so the 19 has to go at least for me.

You might want to try and have the hump removed or shoot one that has had a grip reduction and see if you have the same issues. I doubt it is simply a grip issue. As others have pointed out here are plenty of folks that grip the crap out of their guns and don't seem to have any issues.

[David S.]

Is this happening during slow fire or “rapid fire?”

[Peally]

This is why I would be a terrible instructor. "Grip the gun pretty hard, pull the trigger straight back, don't move the gun until the bullet leaves the gun"

*student misses*

"Fuck I don't know what you did wrong, this is so easy I can't explain it any more simply" :D

[Larry T]

We've got a run-away train here. Humps, bumps, grip reductions? OP, it's time to get off the internet to fix your problem. Have someone else shoot / inspect your gun to check the sight accuracy. After that, get a competent shooter / instructor to WATCH you shoot. If the sights are aligned, you're either moving the gun during the shot (flinch maybe) or you're not actually seeing what you think you're seeing when you get your sight picture.

[JohnO]

I got a chance recently to do some training with a professional instructor. He stood behind me and critiqued my shooting and told me that all my shots were to the left. He said it indicated I was gripping too hard with my Right hand. He walked away before I could ask but how do I train myself to grip less?

Should I take my stance and grip and loosen up before I shoot? How do I quantify "too tight"?


This guy is a competent instructor who has worked with me for a couple of years. He was standing right there when I shot and he said my shots were consistent but Left.

No disrespect intended. Why are you asking us? Why not ask your instructor?

In my opinion no professional instructor watches someone shoot and then just pronounces a diagnosis and walks away!

[Cypher]

Is this happening during slow fire or “rapid fire?” rapid. Specifically a drill where they wanted us to run up to the firing line, draw and do an El Presidente drill. I admit to being really flustered while I was doing it and I remember Having a hard time focusing on the sights.

[ER_STL]

IMO, you can vary your grip in each hand across the entire spectrum of loose to tight and still hit dead-center, assuming your sights stay on target (and are dialed in correctly) and you press the trigger straight back. Grip-pressure doesn’t really change that. Shooting to the weak side with a Glock is very common and often due to something like pushing the gun that direction during the trigger press, sympathetic tightening of the fingers during the press or just plain ol’ flinching. For me personally, slighty steering the muzzle to the weak side during the press is something with which I constantly fight when shooting a Glock; it seems be less common with other guns. I know shooters who deliberately aim a little to the strong side for longer shots to compensate for this phenomenon. :)

Try shooting while either looking at your target –or- closing your eyes (safely). It may sound funny but that’s sometimes a good way to identify if you’re adding a little pre-ignition push as shooters often relax when not having to track the sights. As my man Blues recommended, you can also try varying degrees of grip in each hand while observing the results.

[Drang]

rapid. Specifically a drill where they wanted us to run up to the firing line, draw and do an El Presidente drill. I admit to being really flustered while I was doing it and I remember Having a hard time focusing on the sights.

This was in a class???

Please post details, so we know to avoid these clowns in future.

[Lomshek]

rapid. Specifically a drill where they wanted us to run up to the firing line, draw and do an El Presidente drill. I admit to being really flustered while I was doing it and I remember Having a hard time focusing on the sights.


I wouldn't be so quick to blame the grip.

Try the same drill without running but do it multiple times with different amounts of finger on the trigger (tip, pad, first knuckle, as far in as possible) and then different amounts of grip pressure from trying to win a game of Mercy to shaking hands with an effeminate metro who won't look you in the eyes. Observe what happens when you change something and only change one thing at a time.

You can easily burn up a 100 round box but it may be worth it to isolate the real cause.

If you haven't seen it here's Pat Mac talking about trigger finger location. Warning! He talks like an infantryman!


http://youtu.be/G8JX2hZR_6g

Beyond that none of us know anything about the instructor's ability but it would absolutely be worth your while to take a class from a "known" instructor if you can swing it to see what you don't know and/or what your current instructor is unable to teach you. If you've been using him for two years and are still grappling with an issue like this I would guess you would benefit from a fresh set of highly skilled eyes.

If that doesn't work find someone in your AO who's a very skilled shooter.

Maybe PF should host a shooters looking for shooters connections page. ;)

[Cypher]

This was in a class???

Please post details, so we know to avoid these clowns in future.

I'm trying to figure out how that drill is any different than what they do in IDPA matches all the time

[Cypher]

So clearly posting this here was a mistake. I appreciate those of you who sought to give me honest constructive criticism but I am done with this thread and will not be responding further have a good day

[BigT]

I'm trying to figure out how that drill is any different than what they do in IDPA matches all the time


The difference is that matches don't purport to be training.

They're not claiming to improve your skill.

[Hambo]

So clearly posting this here was a mistake. I appreciate those of you who sought to give me honest constructive criticism but I am done with this thread and will not be responding further have a good day

Thirty years ago there were only a handful of places to get quality training. Now everybody and his dog is an instructor, and while I believe there are more really good instructors now than back in the day, they don't make up a large percentage of the training industry. The local instructors in my area are idiots. I know that because I've been to enough quality training to tell the difference. You really can't appreciate the difference until you've had a really good instructor tune you up. I don't say that to rip you, but it's a fact.

In training, drills should have a point. The overarching point is to make you a better shooter, but each drill should focus on getting you closer to that goal.

As far as grip goes, I crush my gun and have a lot of finger through the trigger guard (see Pat Mac above). I've known people who could shoot well without crushing the pistol, but I'm not one of them.

[GJM]

Leaving aside the instructor part, let us know about your trigger control progress, and what the issue turned out to be.

[TCinVA]

We are discussing a Glock19.

Of course.

Lots of people tend to push shots leftward with Glocks, especially when they are shooting multiple shots in rapid succession.

It's not really your grip, it's more likely your trigger finger.

Clear your gun, then dry-fire.

Then practice shooting multiple shots WITHOUT CYCLING THE SLIDE:


https://youtu.be/uYdlKy9naCI

Pay careful attention to the sights. You will likely notice that at the very last part of the trigger pull, right after the point where the trigger would have broken, you get a slight leftward push of the front sight.

The only way I can combat this on a Glock is to use less trigger finger. I have the very tip of my trigger finger on the trigger just enough to disengage the trigger button on the Glock and then I don't get the lefty push. You can try the Pat Macnamara version where you use a lot more trigger finger, but for me that makes the problem exponentially worse. Point being experiment with trigger finger location in dryfire and live fire to see what works best for clearing the problem up for you.

[spinmove_]

Of course.

Lots of people tend to push shots leftward with Glocks, especially when they are shooting multiple shots in rapid succession.

It's not really your grip, it's more likely your trigger finger.

Clear your gun, then dry-fire.

Then practice shooting multiple shots WITHOUT CYCLING THE SLIDE:


https://youtu.be/uYdlKy9naCI

Pay careful attention to the sights. You will likely notice that at the very last part of the trigger pull, right after the point where the trigger would have broken, you get a slight leftward push of the front sight.

The only way I can combat this on a Glock is to use less trigger finger. I have the very tip of my trigger finger on the trigger just enough to disengage the trigger button on the Glock and then I don't get the lefty push. You can try the Pat Macnamara version where you use a lot more trigger finger, but for me that makes the problem exponentially worse. Point being experiment with trigger finger location in dryfire and live fire to see what works best for clearing the problem up for you.

I think this is partially why flat faced triggers on Glocks are a popular thing. If you can’t put a lot more finger on the trigger, using less becomes a requirement. Using less, with the profile of the OEM trigger shoe as well as the trigger safety, it gets painful after a few magazines. Sure you can build up a callous and tolerance for it, but what happens when you slack off or have to take a break from shooting for XYZ reason? A flat faced trigger with a trigger safety that sits flush with the trigger face solves a lot of these problems.

I’ve been tempted to try one out.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[SC_Dave]

I think this is partially why flat faced triggers on Glocks are a popular thing. If you can’t put a lot more finger on the trigger, using less becomes a requirement. Using less, with the profile of the OEM trigger shoe as well as the trigger safety, it gets painful after a few magazines. Sure you can build up a callous and tolerance for it, but what happens when you slack off or have to take a break from shooting for XYZ reason? A flat faced trigger with a trigger safety that sits flush with the trigger face solves a lot of these problems.

I’ve been tempted to try one out.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

As have I.

[TCinVA]

I think this is partially why flat faced triggers on Glocks are a popular thing. If you can’t put a lot more finger on the trigger, using less becomes a requirement. Using less, with the profile of the OEM trigger shoe as well as the trigger safety, it gets painful after a few magazines. Sure you can build up a callous and tolerance for it, but what happens when you slack off or have to take a break from shooting for XYZ reason? A flat faced trigger with a trigger safety that sits flush with the trigger face solves a lot of these problems.

I’ve been tempted to try one out.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

It's a worthwhile mod for a lot of people. Just use the Apex parts as they have a solid read on making parts that don't make the gun unsafe.

Personally, though, I've tried flat-faced triggers and even guns with extensive grip works and I still get the lefty push with Glocks. That's one of the reasons why I just use other guns.

[blues]

Of course.

Lots of people tend to push shots leftward with Glocks, especially when they are shooting multiple shots in rapid succession.

It's not really your grip, it's more likely your trigger finger.

Clear your gun, then dry-fire.

Then practice shooting multiple shots WITHOUT CYCLING THE SLIDE

I sort of practice this way using a blue gun, which, while the trigger doesn't move, allows me to apply a commensurate amount of force to simulate a trigger pull while maintaining focus on the sight picture.

Works for me and saves wear and tear on my gun. Obviously, everyone will have their own preference in this area. This is just one option.

[David S.]

To qualify my comments, I'm not a firearms instructor, expert, or even a terribly good shooter. I haven't seen you shoot. But that doesn't stop anybody else on the internet from commenting, so here we go.

Here is my understanding of this common marksmanship error:
-If shot's aren't hitting their intended target, then your sights aren't aligned with target at the precise moment of ignition.
-That means you're unconsciously pushing the gun left during the trigger stroke. This seems to be a common error with Glocks for some reason.

A couple of possibilities:
(a) Tom Given's says if your trigger finger "bicep" is too close to the frame, flexing the "bicep" as you pull the trigger might apply leftward pressure on the gun, pushing your shots left. This is a easily diagnosed ergonomic problem that potentially indicates your gun doesn't fit you properly. It could also mean that you're applying too much trigger finger.
(b) or, you might be applying too little trigger finger. If so, your trigger press isn't straight to the rear, but include a slight leftward pressure.
(c) or, it might be that you aren't isolating you trigger finger well enough when stress is applied (ex. shooting fast after movement). That is, trigger finger movement is causing a sympathetic response to the rest of your hand. Instead of applying constant grip pressure, your grip pressure is increasing and decreasing as you activate the trigger. (Without a gun, try flexing your fist and releasing a few times quickly and watch it move inboard.) This is commonly called "milking the grip."

"Gripping too hard" seems like a incomplete diagnosis. It's certainly unhelpful, which is why you posted in the first place, and possibly inaccurate. I suspect he was using shorthand jargon that you should have clarified. You might want to contact the instructor for clarification. I'd be interested in knowing what he meant. I suspect you're struggling with problem C, in which case you need to focus on grip consistency under stress.

Additionally, learning to "Call your shots" will help you diagnose you problem.

Again, I'm no expert. I hope this is accurate and useful. I'm open to critique if I'm full of $*%&.

Cheers,
David S.

[spinmove_]

It's a worthwhile mod for a lot of people. Just use the Apex parts as they have a solid read on making parts that don't make the gun unsafe.

Personally, though, I've tried flat-faced triggers and even guns with extensive grip works and I still get the lefty push with Glocks. That's one of the reasons why I just use other guns.

I wonder if that has to do with the bulky and obtrusive frame bulge just above the trigger well. There are times when I’ll experience the lefty push and swear that it’s that part of the frame I’m pushing against if I happen to use more than a the very tip of my finger with how I happen to be gripping the pistol at the time.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Wondering Beard]

I think you'll all find this interesting.

It's a bit long but the info is detailed:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1iDjiLrp6g

[Lomshek]

So clearly posting this here was a mistake. I appreciate those of you who sought to give me honest constructive criticism but I am done with this thread and will not be responding further have a good day

Cypher

I'd encourage you to reconsider and update the thread as you work through the issue.

When you ask for opinions you're going to get them. Some are misinterpreted or smart assed and that's part and parcel of the web. Your exploration of this by trying the suggestions for your own gain will also likely help others who are struggling with the same problem but didn't ask.

Another drill that helps diagnose errors is Ball & Dummy where you randomly slip a dummy round into the magazine. When the gun goes click the lack of recoil will show you exactly what you're doing wrong and help you to fix it. It has it's limitations but can be very helpful. For your drill making some mags have the top round be a dummy and grabbing a mag and chambering a round with your eyes closed would be a good check. With the first round sometimes going click you won't have the previous round's recoil to confuse the issue.

[SC_Dave]

Cypher

I will say that the more in depth and detailed the information you provide the better feedback you will get. Sometimes the most insignificant detail makes all the difference in the advice you get. These guys (some more than others;)) have helped me correct a lot of issues.

[Hambo]

Here's another option for Cypher:

https://gunfighteru.com/

For a very reasonable price John will watch your video and help you sort out problems.

[Gio]

So clearly posting this here was a mistake. I appreciate those of you who sought to give me honest constructive criticism but I am done with this thread and will not be responding further have a good day

I will add that El Presidente is a really terrible drill to be able to specifically determine that your grip is causing an problem that manifests on the target. You have what sounds like movement into position, fast paced transitions, and then a reload with more fast paced transitions. There are a lot of factors there that can cause shots to consistently hit left that have nothing to do with your grip or trigger press mechanics. I honestly don’t know how an instructor can throw that one simple criticism out on a complex drill like that and really believe that he’s giving you an accurate diagnosis.

Edited to add: Btw, over squeezing with your strong hand doesn’t cause shots to go left. If you are really causing the shots to go left with your technique, than you are doing any or all of the following: 1. Not pressing the trigger straight back, 2. Breaking your wrists before you finish pressing the trigger, and 3. Not gripping hard enough with your support hand (which is more of a bandaid to hide imperfections in your technique with 1 and 2).