USSOCOM Adopts 6.5 Creedmoor

[jellydonut]

Last Spring, USSOCOM undertook a study of 6.5 family cartridges to determine a path forward for Precision Intermediate Caliber Ammunition. Over the last year, USASOC, the primary driver of this initiative, narrowed it down to 260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoor. Testing indicated that the two calibers performed very closely.

Last month, the command conducted a reliability test, using two incumbent weapons, currently in US service; the FN SCAR Heavy and KAC M110. Two weapons of each type were used, one was in 260 Remington and the other in 6.5 CM. What they found is that both weapons performed just as well and were just as reliable in either caliber.

As both cartridges were similarly accurate and reliable, the determining factor for selection of 6.5 CM would end up being trade space. The prevailing attitude is that there was more room with the 6.5 CM to further develop projectiles and loads.

I don’t expect a major announcement, or any fanfare with this decision. Instead, you’ll begin to see small movements toward configuring weapons to utilize this round.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/

It will be interesting to see which exact cartridges they end up using.

[jeep45238]

Giggity. Hopefully we see ammo prices drop after a few years of usage and wider acceptance by civilians driven by this move.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shane45]

6.5 cm is already at a pretty competitive price. It the .260 match ammo that has remained at a premium.

[jeep45238]

A man can dream for better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

Probably my next rifle. Or next barrel, if I don't get another rifle. I was thinking about a .270, but 6.5 CM is singing to me more now.

[TiroFijo]

Good move!

[schüler]

Giggity. Hopefully we see ammo prices drop after a few years of usage and wider acceptance by civilians driven by this move.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf it goes full swing like that you'll probably see 6.5 ammo/components availability get even worse before it gets better.

That's one reason I'm going 7mm on 2 of the 3 barrels for the new build.

[shane45]

My new rifle shipped and should be here next week. Its multi caliber. I went 6.5 Cm and 300 Norma Magnum.

[Mike C]

This is a timely post, I was just looking at the 6.5 conversions in FN's catalog for the Scar H/17.

[Mjolnir]

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/

It will be interesting to see which exact cartridges they end up using.

What about barrel life??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

This is a timely post, I was just looking at the 6.5 conversions in FN's catalog for the Scar H/17.

Link ?

[HCM]

What about barrel life??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Barrels are a consumable,

[Mjolnir]

Barrels are a consumable,

I get that but compared to 7.62 NATO ball for a battle rifle and LMG how does it compare?

For example, (just throwing out numbers) if it's 18k rounds vs. 6k rounds it's probably a less than ideal trade off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PNWTO]

Great to see. I have been attempting to minimize the amount of shit my hobbies accumulate and have been thinking about getting two 6.5CM rifles, a lightweight hunting rifle and a gas gun. I think the cartridge can do anything I may want to do with it.


What about barrel life??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IIRC, barrel life with 6.5 CM is akin to .308.

[Mike C]

Link ?

No link. Neighbor works for FN and dropped off a catalog and some swag. Not sure if these will ever be available to mere mortals. But I was looking at them. In addition I think Handl Defense is going to be making some or had in the past. Not sure which.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180325/49df442aadc496e0eb07fe1b896b7617.jpg

For what’s its worth he did say the MK20’s were going to start being produced here. Belgium can’t keep up with demand for the 17’s apparently and despite them being control freaks the powers that be will allow them to be built here and not assembled as current with the 17-16S lines.

That gives me hope that the 260’s and the 6.5 might be available in the future.

[Mjolnir]

IIRC, barrel life with 6.5 CM is akin to .308.

That's not what I've been told by several who shoot it - in PRS, mind you.

If they are incorrect then it's the "perfect" choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

IIRC, barrel life with 6.5 CM is akin to .308.

Negative. Precision barrel life in both 6.5CM and .260 is about 1/3 of Precision barrel life in .308.

6.5 is great round but there is no free lunch.

[HCM]

That's not what I've been told by several who shoot it - in PRS, mind you.

If they are incorrect then it's the "perfect" choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your PRS friends ARE correct, 6.5 CM barrel life is 1/3 to 1/2 that of .308. .300 Win mag has much shorter barrel life too. From a .mil perspective that’s what armorers are on the payroll for. Just a cost of doing business.

[PNWTO]

Negative. Precision barrel life in both 6.5CM and .260 is about 1/3 of Precision barrel life in .308.

6.5 is great round but there is no free lunch.

TIL, thank you.

[Jaywalker]

"Soldier Systems," an industry daily mentions SOCOM has adopted the 6.5 Creedmoor. http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/

"The War Zone" says SOCOM will be getting new rifles and "assault machine gun" in the Creedmoor.

PEO Soldier is looking into a new MG and I wouldn't be surprised to see it lighter weight and suited to the Creedmoor, also.

[okie john]

Your PRS friends ARE correct, 6.5 CM barrel life is 1/3 to 1/2 that of .308. .300 Win mag has much shorter barrel life too. From a .mil perspective that’s what armorers are on the payroll for. Just a cost of doing business.

How many rounds are we talking?


Okie John

[HCM]

How many rounds are we talking?


Okie John

I’m hearing 3 to 5k is normal life of a 6.5 so about 1/2 the life of a comparable .308.

[okie john]

Thanks.


Okie John

[NH Shooter]

Terminal ballistics, 6.5 CM vs. .308?

[Jaywalker]

I’m hearing 3 to 5k is normal life of a 6.5 so about 1/2 the life of a comparable .308.

I'm going to wait and see on this barrel life thing until the same group of people start transitioning to the 6.5 CM and begin turning in results. The initial figure for the CM barrel life were 2,500 - 3,000 rounds, but those came from the practical shooting crowd. Those are the folks who cry real tears when their quarter-MOA barrels open up all the way to half-MOA. The .308 hasn't been used there much for some time - they moved to various 6.5s years ago - so I don't think those are the folks who say .308 barrel life is 10,000 rounds.

I have no real doubts that the .308 would show longer life than the 6.5 Creedmoor, as the .308 is exceptional for barrel life, but I doubt the Creedmoor will be only half when used for the same things.

Long range and wind - no contest; the 6.5 Creedmoor wins going away. Here's a comparison of the two: http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/

The 7.62x51 (~ the .308) drops over 400 inches at 1,000 yards, while the 6.5 Creedmoor drops under 300 inches. Can't find the link now, but I think the Creedmoor stays supersonic past 1400 yards compared to the .308's under 1,000. I suspect the .308 still has an energy advantage at 500 yards.

It's the long, slim bullets that the 6.5s have used for decades that gets them the numbers they get.

[NH Shooter]

When I was shopping for a new barrel for my Rem 700, there were no 6.5 CM barrels in stock anywhere. Companies like Bartlein had considerable wait times to have one made. When I found the exact barrel profile I wanted in .308 with a 1-in-10 twist on the Bartlein stock list, I slept on it overnight and pulled the trigger on it the next day.

While the 6.5 offers significant ballistic advantages as articulated above, the .308 offers an important one for me - ammo availability. I can go to any local sporting goods store, Walmart, etc. and find a pretty big selection of .308 ammo, which can't be said for the 6.5 CM. Additionally the terrain up here in NH is anything but flat and wide open, one has to really search for a spot that gets much beyond 600 yards (including most ranges). And as already stated, my new Bartlein .308 barrel should last a while based on how many rounds I typically put through it in a year.

No doubt the 6.5 CM is an impressive round for long range shooting that makes sense for government agencies to consider. At some point I may order that 6.5 barrel in a M24 contour and have it installed, but for now the .308 is serving my amateur long range shooting needs perfectly.

[Odin Bravo One]

I get that but compared to 7.62 NATO ball for a battle rifle and LMG how does it compare?

For example, (just throwing out numbers) if it's 18k rounds vs. 6k rounds it's probably a less than ideal trade off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How it is used affects barrel life more than just the caliber. It’s not terribly uncommon for SOCOM owned .308 barrels to be unserviceable in a thousand rounds or less.

Despite opinions to the contrary, very few people have even a layman’s understanding of how/why the military makes these types of decisions. Fewer still understand it from the SOCOM perspective.

[schüler]

I’m hearing 3 to 5k is normal life of a 6.5 so about 1/2 the life of a comparable .308.

There's barrel life and there's throat life. Strings of fire and higher-for-caliber pressures greatly affect the latter. At PRS tempo and loaded pressures it is not uncommon for stainless 308 to drop by 2400-2800, 6.5 around 1800 give or take.

6.5 recoil is as important a factor as its better ballistics.

[RevolverRob]

Last thing I give a shit about as a taxpayer is penny pinching over precision rifle barrels. 6.5CM has demonstrated its efficacy in terms of ballistic efficiency and accuracy relative to 7.62x51. Precision shots are among the most important in terms of small arms deployment. Therefore, I'm not concerned about costs associated with this shift.

By comparison MHS is a farce of spending.

[BWT]

How it is used affects barrel life more than just the caliber. It’s not terribly uncommon for SOCOM owned .308 barrels to be unserviceable in a thousand rounds or less.

Despite opinions to the contrary, very few people have even a layman’s understanding of how/why the military makes these types of decisions. Fewer still understand it from the SOCOM perspective.

Out of curiosity what do you think of the 6.5 CM?

Do you think it’s a step in the right direction?

Given your background I’m just curious to get your perspective on it.

God Bless,

Brandon

[secondstoryguy]

I still think I’d rather have an AI .338 Lapua for the long stuff and a nice .308 gas gun for all the rest. Don’t see where 6.5CM really fits into anything and it doesn’t seem like it’s that much better than .308 to justify the logistics issues. Not to mention a .308 can used de-linked machine gun ammo in a pinch.

[TCFD273]

It’s superior to 308 in every way. I’ve taken elk with them and shot them to 1 mile.

With Lapua small primer brass and a good barrel....the velocities are way over book without a lot of additional wear.

With a gas gun, you WILL most definitely need to run an enhanced bolt, or you will start blowing primers on moderate loads...ask me how I know. [emoji38]

Barrel life? Cost of doing business. I get pre fit barrels for my AI for $600. Replace them with an Allen wrench after the groups start opening up.

When does that happen? Depends on firing schedule and how hot the ammo is. I run a somewhat hot load, several grains over max, and was just shy of 4K when I replaced my last barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frank R]

Great to see. I have been attempting to minimize the amount of shit my hobbies accumulate and have been thinking about getting two 6.5CM rifles, a lightweight hunting rifle and a gas gun. I think the cartridge can do anything I may want to do with it.



IIRC, barrel life with 6.5 CM is akin to .308.

More wear with 6.5.

[Frank R]

Terminal ballistics, 6.5 CM vs. .308?

About the same out to 500yds. 140gr 6.5 & 168gr 308. Beyond that distance, the 6.5 takes over.
at the FTW Ranch, where the SAAM Shooting School is taught by veteran instructors with tons of real-world experience, all instructors have their own Creedmoor rifle, and that’s by choice.

[Odin Bravo One]

Out of curiosity what do you think of the 6.5 CM?

Do you think it’s a step in the right direction?

Given your background I’m just curious to get your perspective on it.

God Bless,

Brandon

Depends on how you define “the right direction”.

People changing and tweaking to improve performance has been going on since man threw the first rock at another living creature.

Im sure it is an answer. It all depends on the questions asked.

I don’t have one personally, and probably won’t get one because I don’t see a practical performance improvement. Lots of people like to toss out data and graphs and charts, but consistently fail to mention the weakest link in the accuracy chain; the shooter. A good shooter will be able to wring out premium accuracy potential out of just about any rifle.

But more often than not, mediocre/average shooters are looking for a technological solution to compensate for their weak skills.

I know lots of guys who think 65CM is the duck’s nuts. Cool with me. If I needed something like that, I’d probably consider it. But I don’t have the need. And honestly, I’m more of a mediocre shooter these days, and wouldn’t benefit much from its inherent accuracy potential.

[BWT]

Depends on how you define “the right direction”.

People changing and tweaking to improve performance has been going on since man threw the first rock at another living creature.

Im sure it is an answer. It all depends on the questions asked.

I don’t have one personally, and probably won’t get one because I don’t see a practical performance improvement. Lots of people like to toss out data and graphs and charts, but consistently fail to mention the weakest link in the accuracy chain; the shooter. A good shooter will be able to wring out premium accuracy potential out of just about any rifle.

But more often than not, mediocre/average shooters are looking for a technological solution to compensate for their weak skills.

I know lots of guys who think 65CM is the duck’s nuts. Cool with me. If I needed something like that, I’d probably consider it. But I don’t have the need. And honestly, I’m more of a mediocre shooter these days, and wouldn’t benefit much from its inherent accuracy potential.

Thanks for the insight.

That’s a challenging but also true statement about the shooter; I resemble that remark. Like most things we know the answer but we don’t like the answer; improvement will require work and discipline.

Over on Primary and Secondary they were discussing ammunition weight and also we need to improve marksmanship back on the 7.62 vs 5.56 podcast I believe.

I hope it’s a better system for our service member’s sake. I also feel like everyone’s upgrading any system they can that may need it while we have the President we do; M27’s for the USMC, 6.5 CM carbines, Sig P320 program, some new .338 NM hybrid belt-fed, etc.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Mjolnir]

There's no doubt on will shoot better with it as it has less felt recoil, much better BC so it bucks the wind better and is flatter shooting.

The trade off is barrel life - and, for the record, that comment/question was from a PERSONAL perspective more than the government's perspective. I do not print paper and call it "money".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BWT]

There's no doubt on will shoot better with it as it has less felt recoil, much better BC so it bucks the wind better and is flatter shooting.

The trade off is barrel life - and, for the record, that comment/question was from a PERSONAL perspective more than the government's perspective. I do not print paper and call it "money".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t think either of was discrediting the cartridge (assuming you were referring to the dialogue between Sean M. and I), but I do believe he hit the nail on the head on we need better shooters in general.

The podcast I was referring to is this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAy9QApbuJQ

There was a lot of dialogue by Ash Hess who had input in several Army training curriculum from what I understand and a theme of that video was essentially what Sean M. said (ETA: referring to good shooters and premium accuracy).

This video came out when the 7.62 was being pulled out of moth balls as an interim rifle to give us more capability against near peer enemies.

Ash indicated IIRC the issue was more so lack of proficiency on a large scale (paraphrasing) than a technical limitation.

This excerpt from that clip by Chuck of Presscheck Consulting also kind of indicated the same as far as 5.56 sufficiency.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sh1gNW4yeI

Anyway, this thread is about replacing 7.62 platforms with 6.5 CM. But, to draw this rambling post to an end; it seems a better arrow is always good but a better Indian is probably better.

God Bless,

Brandon

[HCM]

I don’t think either of was discrediting the cartridge (assuming you were referring to the dialogue between Sean M. and I), but I do believe he hit the nail on the head on we need better shooters in general.

The podcast I was referring to is this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAy9QApbuJQ

There was a lot of dialogue by Ash Hess who had input in several Army training curriculum from what I understand and a theme of that video was essentially what Sean M. said (ETA: referring to good shooters and premium accuracy).

This video came out when the 7.62 was being pulled out of moth balls as an interim rifle to give us more capability against near peer enemies.

Ash indicated IIRC the issue was more so lack of proficiency on a large scale (paraphrasing) than a technical limitation.

This excerpt from that clip by Chuck of Presscheck Consulting also kind of indicated the same as far as 5.56 sufficiency.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sh1gNW4yeI

Anyway, this thread is about replacing 7.62 platforms with 6.5 CM. But, to draw this rambling post to an end; it seems a better arrow is always good but a better Indian is probably better.

God Bless,

Brandon

Brandon,

They are talking about 7.62 vs 5.56 as a general issue service rifle cartridge for “the masses.” The argument for 5.56 vs 7.62 as a general issue .MIL round is much the same argument as 9mm vs .45 as a general issue round for LE.

It’s not really relevant to the use of 6.5 vs 7.62 in a precision role by select users or even an MG role. The 6.5 and 7.62 are similar in size, weight and capacity. In some situations the 6.5 is easier to shoot and 6.5 is a cheap easy swap in existing 7.62 platforms.

It is not really applicable to 6.5 vs 7.62 in a precision role with

[BWT]

Brandon,

They are talking about 7.62 vs 5.56 as a general issue service rifle cartridge for “the masses.” The argument for 5.56 vs 7.62 as a general issue .MIL round is much the same argument as 9mm vs .45 as a general issue round for LE.

It’s not really relevant to the use of 6.5 vs 7.62 in a precision role by select users or even an MG role. The 6.5 and 7.62 are similar in size, weight and capacity. In some situations the 6.5 is easier to shoot and 6.5 is a cheap easy swap in existing 7.62 platforms.

It is not really applicable to 6.5 vs 7.62 in a precision role with

Fair enough I meant in the precision arena when I said 7.62 platforms but you’re non the less correct in that it’s a stretch logically. It’s not exactly apples to apples.

God Bless,

Brandon

[RevolverRob]

So, for clarity - setting shooter training issues aside (and those are big issues). Are folks concerned about the cost of transitioning to 6.5CM from 7.62 or is it a question of efficacy?

Let's say - that there are approximately as many sniper rifles as M249s in the USMC - that's ~10,000 guns. If each of those is rebarrelled into 6.5CM when the 7.62 barrel is shot out and the USMC pays $2000 a barrel, that costs $200,000 for the initial change over. Let's assume that new ammo acquisitions - etc. has it run up into the $2,000,000 range.

The cost of a single Hellfire missile is $115,000 each, a Predator drone's Hellfire loadout costs the amount of rebarreling 10,000 sniper rifles once...

As to efficacy, the ballistic coefficient of 6.5 is a significant improvement over 7.62, anytime you can dial 100 inches of drop out of a bullet at the same distance, you're cooking with gas. The longer super-sonic range allows a longer target engagement range. The cartridge itself weighs less than 7.62, so you gain ballistic efficiency and weight efficiency, not too mention longer engagement ranges and better terminal ballistics within engagement range. That all = Better.

The costs associated with this switch are really miniscule. And in fact, are best done in this fashion, where everyone finally says, "You know, 6.5CM does what we need from a medium-sized cartridge point of view, better than 7.62. Yes, we lose barrel life, but realistically, we gain so much. Plus the costs of using the SOCOM supply chain and top-down approach, saves us money spent in in farcical ways like the MHS. We just get what we need and start dolling it out and let everything trickle down as necessary. No long-drawn out selection process that allows superiors and politicians to be swayed by companies and results in selection of an inferior product based on bean counting."

[Hambo]

The cost of 6.5 rifles and ammo is a lot less than Zumwalt ammo. Just sayin.

Cancel one or two mulit-billion dollar boondoggles and you can give every grunt a golf bag full of rifles.

[Odin Bravo One]

These always end up hurting my brain.......