RFI: Full Sized Passenger Vans

[Doc_Glock]

Since our dear beloved Chevy Express has been stolen I am considering replacement vans. Full sized passenger vans only, no conversions.

We had a great run with the Express. It was cheap and did everything we ever asked of it reliably. That is in Chevy’s favor. I also have contacts with GM that can help with pricing.

What I want:
-12 passenger seating with a large cargo area.
-fits in garage. I need to check the opening, but I think it was 95” high.

I think my options are:
1. Chevy Express/GMC Savannah- known quantity. Been around forever. Reliable old tech. Easy to find. Big ass V8 like The Good Lord intended.

2. Mercedes/Freightliner Sprinter-awesome but expensive and maybe difficult to service. Maybe. Hard to find model desired.

3. Ford Transit- not sure I trust these tiny turbo engines and not sure this van has its teething problems resolved. I drove one and thought it was quiet mainly. Kids tell me legroom less than Chevy.

4. Fiat/Dodge thingy. Looks like no passenger version available.

Diesel engines seem to add 10k to the price and I am not sure they are worth it as I rarely tow things and don’t drive enough miles in a year (about 8k/year) to make it worth it.

I probably only need it for five years as we start to launch kids and can downsize. But I really like having a full size for family trips and trips with all the friends along. Our five kids are all pretty much pushing adult sized and don’t fit in a minivan well at all.

[Joe in PNG]

I'd go with what you know- the Chevy. Check for off lease and rental vehicle resales.

[TGS]

I've ridden/driven a lot in the Ford Transit vans for rides up to an hour in length, and as a passenger I much prefer them to Chevy vans, mainly in terms of seating comfort, quietness, and ride quality.

If you liked the Chevy, have contacts to help with purchase, and the Transit still has issues then I think it's a pretty obvious choice for you.

[BN]

Are there any 4WD or AWD full sized vans? I have a Sienna AWD mini van and when the kids have their friends along, it can get pretty crowded.

[Poconnor]

Mercedes makes a 4x4 diesel sprinter van. I haven’t driven one but the concept is very interesting

[OlongJohnson]

I also have contacts with GM that can help with pricing.

Don't rely on that exclusively. I got a bug to replace my beater awhile back. When I put together four or five must-haves, there were single digits of vehicles on dealer lots in the country that satisfied them. Wasn't even being picky, just focusing on what was most important to me.

I found the perfect Chevy in NY. It was ~$37k sticker, but that dealer kept having markdowns, and GM kept putting rebates on it. Someone eventually bought it for $29,xxx without even having to negotiate.



What I want:
-12 passenger seating with a large cargo area.
-fits in garage. I need to check the opening, but I think it was 95” high.

Careful of the mid-roof and high-roof options from the other makers. Also, if your driveway isn't flat, account for the tilt of the body going over the edge and approaching the garage. I've seen a rental box truck take out a gas station canopy on the way out due to that.



I think my options are:
1. Chevy Express/GMC Savannah- known quantity. Been around forever. Reliable old tech. Easy to find. Big ass V8 like The Good Lord intended.

2. Mercedes/Freightliner Sprinter-awesome but expensive and maybe difficult to service. Maybe. Hard to find model desired.

3. Ford Transit- not sure I trust these tiny turbo engines and not sure this van has its teething problems resolved. I drove one and thought it was quiet mainly. Kids tell me legroom less than Chevy.

4. Fiat/Dodge thingy. Looks like no passenger version available.

Read all the old magazine reviews where they test the three euros against each other. Fiat always gets poor marks for ergonomics and driving. It's also just weird.

There is an active community around the Fords. The Ecoboost V6 is becoming proven. They build too many to not get the bugs worked out. I did shop these seriously.

It seems the Sprinters were only available with diesel when I was looking. The Bluetec engines are nothing but trouble, and require very expensive stuff to be replaced at unreasonably frequent intervals. Only a small percentage of M-B dealers will work on them or supply parts, and you're liable to wait for stuff to come from Germany on the next boat. (In Houston, I believe there are only two dealers that will support them. Imagine if something went wrong outside a large city...) Just not worth it if you're spending your own money.

The 6.0L makes baby Jesus smile. I wouldn't blame yourself for the differential in your old one. I believe the change interval is 100k for the axle fill. AC Delco parts are quite affordable on Amazon or Ebay when I need them.



Diesel engines seem to add 10k to the price and I am not sure they are worth it as I rarely tow things and don’t drive enough miles in a year (about 8k/year) to make it worth it.

I would agree. On the Ford, the diesel won't provide the performance of the Ecoboost V-6.

Diesel engines in the Chevy are theoretically awesome, but I've only seen them as a theoretical option, never in real life. You'd probably have to special order it to get the factory to build one, which would mean you couldn't cherry pick from rebates and discounts around the country.

Use Autotrader, and do a nationwide search. You can save enough money and get exactly the combination of options you want to make the road trip totally worth it.

One factor that I don't hear other people talk about, but that is very real for me. The GM van feels like a personal vehicle, much like a pickup that you drive for every day and for fun. The Sprinter, and likely the Fiat, feel like I should be wearing a uniform and getting paid to drive them. The Ford is in between. Just a subtle psychological nuance, but one that makes a difference for me.

Also, I recommend the Bilstein shocks. My van is approaching 200k, and I would seriously have taken the shocks off it and put them on the ~40k 2014 I drove and considered it an upgrade (assuming they were the correct p/n).

[Bigghoss]

Are there any 4WD or AWD full sized vans? I have a Sienna AWD mini van and when the kids have their friends along, it can get pretty crowded.

I don't know of any from the factory but there are companies like Quigley 4x4 that specializes in 4wd conversions. They're geared more for actual offroading though, high ground clearance (for a van) a transfer case with low range and all the extras you'd want for overlanding and such. And carry a hefty price tag to go with it. I don't know if anyone offers something more tame.

[TGS]

What about the Nissan 12-passenger van?

[Duelist]

I drove Ford and Chevy full size vans a lot for work. Prefer Ford. I've had full size Chevy and Ford pickups. Currently have an '02 Chevy diesel. That diesel is awesome for power and mileage, but I don't know if it's $10k more awesome if you don't tow. Towing with a full size van isn't really awesome.

Last summer, I borrowed a beastly full-size Nissan to drive a church youth group around for a week. I didn't like it the first half day. After that, I really started liking it. A lot.

I've never needed one for myself, so I've never gotten serious about shopping.

[Screwball]

I’m a GM fan, being my father worked there for 35 years... GM discount (real one, not the “marketed” one) definitely helps.

But I did drive a Sprinter back from Florida about a month ago. Work van, so dually with two seats and then just SPACE. I liked the truck, but it is a freaking sail going down the road. Come up to pass a tractor-trailer, and the turbulence coming off the trailer shook the hell out of the truck to the point that I had to grab the wheel with both hands each time I passed one. Truck had a speed limit set at 82, which was obnoxious... but not a big deal. I know there are different sizes, but the one I drove was freaking LONG! Pull into a parking lot, took up a space and a half. Engine was powerful enough to get the truck moving quickly. Like that the fuel door can’t be opened without the driver door being opened.

The one little thing that annoyed me was the fuel gauge (and this is more of a design issue, since two Sprinters I’m familiar with, Mercedes and Freightliner, both do it). There are little tabs that make up the gauge... all of them present means full, and they disappear, one by one, as the tank empties. When you get down to three tabs left, it doesn’t go to two, then one. It goes three (holds for a little longer)... then fuel light on. Really stupid, especially considering it is a German design.

If you look at a Sprinter, remember one thing... it is European. On GM vehicles, you want the defroster to go on... you turn the knob, and air starts going out the defrosters/stops coming out the other vents. Change the mode, vents open/close to meet the demand. Not on a Sprinter. You do have some control on the dash, but you have to manually shut/open vents to meet demand. I froze my ass off coming up... I do know some was because the fact I had a huge space to warm up, but I had a winter jacket on from mid-Virginia, north.

[Doc_Glock]

Are there any 4WD or AWD full sized vans? I have a Sienna AWD mini van and when the kids have their friends along, it can get pretty crowded.

Sprinter comes as a 4x4. Prepare to open your wallet though.

[Doc_Glock]

What about the Nissan 12-passenger van?

Totally forgot about it! What about it? Are they any good? The look cool. They seem less space efficient than the GM, but surely have the horsepower and the interiors look great. I have had great experiences with Japanese cars.

[OlongJohnson]

The Chevy is a good looking van in a good paint color with the chrome package.

The Nissan is the opposite of styling. Almost like they were trying to make sure nobody got the idea that life might be good while driving one.

More seriously, I would spend time reading on Nissan truck forums.

[Bigghoss]

It's been 12 years since I worked on cars for a living but from what I saw in the early 2000's the Japanese put out solid vehicles. Nissan was probably behind Toyota and Honda but still pretty durable vehicles.

We have Chevy vans here at work to get out to our various posts. They get less than 20 miles a day but they're driven by people who don't have to cover maintenance and repairs and who are trying to get back to turn their gear in and go home after a 12 hour shift. The only thing that really stands out is the HVAC knobs on one of them broke off. A lot of these guys are former infantry but still... Also, they're kinda gutless.

[Duelist]

The Chevy is a good looking van in a good paint color with the chrome package.

The Nissan is the opposite of styling. Almost like they were trying to make sure nobody got the idea that life might be good while driving one.

More seriously, I would spend time reading on Nissan truck forums.

Yeah, it's weird looking.

[OlongJohnson]

Also, they're kinda gutless.

The 6.0L is not gutless. I reckon your employer doesn't want to pay for that.

Rule to live by:
Always get the biggest engine.

[BN]

Is the Toyota Proace available in the USA?

[JRB]

Having driven and dealt with a decent variety of 12 and 15 pax vans for Uncle Sam, I'll say unequivocally that the GM's are my preference by a fair margin. The newest Fords have this weird split-seat thing going on with the 15pax and with grown adults in military uniforms the armrests and seatbelts are a pain to get around, especially for taller folks. I suppose it'd be fine for kids.

The Nissan is hideous but it's the quietest of the bunch and the base model sound system is better than the GM or Ford's. But it felt a little looser and too fuzzy at highway speeds. All of my exposure to Nissan vans has been via rental and not GSA owned vehicles, so abuse/lack of maintenance on rental fleet is a possible contributing factor.

Beyond that I prefer the GM because of the engine/trans combo (because V8!) the seats are easier to remove if you need cargo van status, and everywhere that has a lift and can work on GSA vehicles can get whatever part you need *today*. Ecoboost, weird diesels, etc - not so much.
It's also been my experience doing high performance stuff that the Ecoboost V6 doesn't really net the gas mileage improvement people claim it does. It does okay with light load but if you put a trailer behind one, it guzzles gas. With catless downpipes and a tune you can get another 1-2mpg improvement if you keep your foot out of it and see 22mpg sometimes 23mpg depending on the truck and driving tactics, but you can do pretty well with the modern direct injected Gen V GM V8's too, particularly the 5.3L.
A 2015 5.3L Silverado that we twin turbocharged (640hp at the wheels) had no problem getting 20mpg on the highway cruising at 80mph between Albuquerque and Vegas for SEMA. Using hypermile tactics and going at 75mph netted 22mpg. 4wd hi burnouts are fun too, the new 8L90 8 speed auto transmissions are STRONG.

So yes, GM van gets my vote.

[Bigghoss]

The 6.0L is not gutless. I reckon your employer doesn't want to pay for that.

Rule to live by:
Always get the biggest engine.

I have no idea what engine is in them but you're probably right. They're 2500's though, I don't know what the base engine is for those.

[Doc_Glock]

Having driven and dealt with a decent variety of 12 and 15 pax vans for Uncle Sam, I'll say unequivocally that the GM's are my preference by a fair margin. The newest Fords have this weird split-seat thing going on with the 15pax and with grown adults in military uniforms the armrests and seatbelts are a pain to get around, especially for taller folks. I suppose it'd be fine for kids.

The Nissan is hideous but it's the quietest of the bunch and the base model sound system is better than the GM or Ford's. But it felt a little looser and too fuzzy at highway speeds. All of my exposure to Nissan vans has been via rental and not GSA owned vehicles, so abuse/lack of maintenance on rental fleet is a possible contributing factor.

Beyond that I prefer the GM because of the engine/trans combo (because V8!) the seats are easier to remove if you need cargo van status, and everywhere that has a lift and can work on GSA vehicles can get whatever part you need *today*. Ecoboost, weird diesels, etc - not so much.
It's also been my experience doing high performance stuff that the Ecoboost V6 doesn't really net the gas mileage improvement people claim it does. It does okay with light load but if you put a trailer behind one, it guzzles gas. With catless downpipes and a tune you can get another 1-2mpg improvement if you keep your foot out of it and see 22mpg sometimes 23mpg depending on the truck and driving tactics, but you can do pretty well with the modern direct injected Gen V GM V8's too, particularly the 5.3L.
A 2015 5.3L Silverado that we twin turbocharged (640hp at the wheels) had no problem getting 20mpg on the highway cruising at 80mph between Albuquerque and Vegas for SEMA. Using hypermile tactics and going at 75mph netted 22mpg. 4wd hi burnouts are fun too, the new 8L90 8 speed auto transmissions are STRONG.

So yes, GM van gets my vote.

Our rental GM is a LWB 15 Passenger with I assume the 6.0l. Our old SWB had the 5.3l.

What I have noticed:

I am surprised at how much harder the 15 passenger is to deal with in parking.

I swear this thing handles better in fast corners by a lot. Can't explain it. Other than weight distribution and much better and newer shocks.

This van also rides much better than a 12 passenger HD SWB tented in Chicago this past year. I guess they have the same suspension but the LWB has more weight in an extra bench and length which makes it better matched to the springs. The SWB was super harsh.

Engine and trans much better than our 2004. No comparison. Just dragged us up to 5000' no issue from sea level.

Passing Power is way better on two lanes. Downshifts and holds gear on downhills for engine braking without my input which is pretty cool! It is selling itself.

[OlongJohnson]

My Savanna is a 3500, and I ride around in it empty most of the time. The ride is quite decent for an empty one-ton. It's a LWB, so the fore-aft pitching motions are reduced when going over bumps, and the timing between the front and rear axle encountering the bump is different, so they will tend to contribute to a pitching oscillation at different frequencies. From the driver's seat, the motion is mostly up and down, so the front row doesn't experience the fore-aft pitching that you get when seated high midway between the axles. Going to lunch in coworkers' duallies is punishing by comparison.

The LWB is also unusual in having the rear axle so far back in the vehicle. It should really help with controlling trailer motion, and should make backing a trailer a little less hyperactive.

I live in TX, so the parking issue is rarely a problem. I've only owned the LWB, so I'm used to it.

[mmc45414]

3. Ford Transit- not sure I trust these tiny turbo engines
I went from a 3003 2500 Suburban we had for 235k with a 6.0 directly to a 2014 F-150 with max tow and 3.73 and the 3.5 twin turbo, and had the same apprehension. But after about 50k I would not refer to something with 420fp@2200rpm as "tiny", I would refer to it as "awesome". After towing this over Jellico
24492
I became a fanboi. 420fp doesn't sound like much more, but it comes in at 2200rpm instead of the typical 3800rpm means no downshifting.


Diesel engines seem to add 10k to the price and I am not sure they are worth it as I rarely tow things
And I think a lot of the torque advantage comes from being turbocharged, and see above :)
Torque without the diesel hassle (DEF, yada, yada, yada...)

ETA: my comparison SWAG on torque numbers was off a little off, the 6.0, that I was perfectly happy with:
24493
Didn't wake up till 4k. That means you probably have to drop two gears before getting busy. I would just roll on with the low RPM torque the turbos bring to the table.

[Doc_Glock]

The 6.0 liter and trans combination really won me over on the drive home which is a lot of two lane, and a decent amount of mountain roads. Passing was so much less drama than the aged 5.3. So were the climbs.

Will look at the Ford closely as well thanks for the feedback on the turbo engine. I simply have a bias toward displacement and against turbos due to the throttle response. Might not be a big deal in a giant, non performance type vehicle though.

[mmc45414]

The 6.0 liter and trans combination really won me over on the drive home which is a lot of two lane, and a decent amount of mountain roads. Passing was so much less drama than the aged 5.3. So were the climbs.I loved my 6.0 the whole time I had it. The gearing in this van might be different also.


Will look at the Ford closely as well thanks for the feedback on the turbo engine. I simply have a bias toward displacement and against turbos due to the throttle response. Might not be a big deal in a giant, non performance type vehicle though.
I get what you are saying, and a few years ago I probably thought the same thing, but IMO modern turbo management makes "turbo lag" a thing of the past. Something I focus on more and more is not just the torque peak, but when it hits. My 3.5L truck (with 3.73 gearing and the six speed) is turning about 2k just rolling down the road, probably producing at least 400fp, my 6.0 needed to downshift (probably twice) to get to 4k/360fp. People tend to be concerned with "turbo lag" but accept "downshift lag" cause they are used to it? My truck does some funky stuff when you roll through a stop sign and then give it abrupt throttle, but I think that is the transmission being confused more than the boost. Also, when you test drive, you (me, everybody?) might be inclined to do things you will not do, like really stab it and wind it out, and that is not as impressive as just driving it. After a few months I realized the thing just accelerates and goes over hills without drama.

[OlongJohnson]

Turbo technology has for about 15 years been sufficiently advanced that lag is not really a thing anymore if the whole system is engineered well.

[txdpd]

The 2500/3500 vans have had 3.42 gears with the 6 speed transmission. Prior to that 3.73's were out there. The G80 locker would be worth looking at, while they are not good for serious off road use or with oversized wheels, they work well with OE setup and can save you from a tow if you're doing the one wheel peel.

Tire pressure is a big factor in the ride quality of big vans. If they come from the factory with the TPMS set at 80psi, unladen they will bounce around and wear out the centers of the tires. Without a reprogram at a more reasonable 50-55psi, you'll get pinged to insanity by some asinine warning.

[Doc_Glock]

We ended up with another Chevrolet Express. Short wheel base, 12 passenger 2500, 6.0 gas engine, rear limited slip differential. I am really happy with it, especially the engine/trans combination. So strong, and the modern electronics on the tranny are outstanding for uphill, downhill driving.

What pushed us to the GM product over the Ford, Sprinter, or Nissan:

1. Familiarity with the platform, my wife didn't want to learn another different enormous vehicle.
2. Amazing engine!
3. 21 year track record of the platform with slow improvements. It was introduced in 1995, and everything likely to go wrong with these vans has already been found out by countless rental and industrial fleets, church groups, and general people hauler abuse.
4. Towing capacity. 10,000lbs. I may not need it, but it is there in spades over the competition.
5. Finances: Using some inroads with GM, I got it for employee pricing (37k), -3500 GM cash back, -1500 for financing (will pay off in a couple months), -2500 for currently driving and import(who knew about this GM promotion. Ended up with a price of $30,500 on a $41,000 MSRP van before taxes and licensing.

Love it. It should serve us for another decade of exploration.

Thanks for the input folks.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180405/070e1dfc9ad6160783123fe855e739d7.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

3. 21 year track record of the platform with slow improvements. It was introduced in 1995, and everything likely to go wrong with these vans has already been found out by countless rental and industrial fleets, church groups, and general people hauler abuse.

All the users in places with rain and humidity know about the work truck white paint peeling off, which AFAIK has never been fixed. Mine was fine for 15 years of LA sun, started peeling after a year and a half in Houston. They all do.

[Screwball]

All the users in places with rain and humidity know about the work truck white paint peeling off, which AFAIK has never been fixed. Mine was fine for 15 years of LA sun, started peeling after a year and a half in Houston. They all do.

Yep... peels in NJ. Usually the hood, then the fenders.