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View Full Version : Iron Sights vs Bead vs ??? for HD Shotgun



mtnbkr
03-11-2018, 07:20 AM
My HD 870 is equipped with a Mossberg 18" bead-equipped barrel. This barrel works fine and patterns great with Federal FliteControl 00 buck. It patterns tight out to 25yds (longest straight shot in my house is 15yds). As for Slugs, I've only shot those out to 15yds, but I'm able to put them all into a softball sized group with very little practice (I shoot 5-10 slugs per year). I'm confident in the bead for the mission I have in mind for this gun.

That said, at the local Cabelas' "Bargain Cave" they have a few Remington 18" barrels with iron sights for just over $100. I'm tempted to buy one, but am hesitant to mess with a system that currently works. I'm also not the best with traditional iron sights. On all of my iron sight equipped long guns, I've switched over to receiver-mounted aperture sights.

Considering the new barrel got me to thinking about other options, such as a receiver mounted ghost ring (would keep the same barrel, just upgrade the front sight) or a red dot (gunsmith to add rail). Regarding red dots, my vision smears them a bit, so they're not the best for precision work at longer distances, but would be fine for HD distances.

I also have to consider the possibility that this gun could be wielded by non-gun people who would be unaware of how to use the additional complexities of red dots, ghost rings, etc.

So, the question is, do I keep the bead, swap out the entire barrel to gain iron sights (and go through a lengthy vetting process), or consider something else such as a receiver-mounted ghost ring or red dot?

Oof, that's a lot of words for a simple question. :rolleyes:

Chris

DamonL
03-11-2018, 09:04 AM
If you like Receiver-mounted Aperture sights, you will like the Wilson Combat Trak-Lok. The front sight is epoxied onto the existing bead pedestal. The receiver is drilled and tapped for the aperture sight. So no new barrel is needed. It will cost more than the new barrel you are talking about, though.

41magfan
03-11-2018, 09:29 AM
Any modification that I do to my guns is "mission driven" so for me, shooting slugs is secondary to shot loads. I don't personally need anything more than a visible bead sight to shoot shot loads effectively, but occasionally you'll run across a particular load that won't shoot to the bead as far as "zero" is concerned.

With that in mind I sorta split the difference and installed XS Big Dot night sights on a Remington adjustable sight barrel. For all practical purposes, it's just as fast as a bead but it allows me to shoot slugs with greater precision plus it allows me to "zero" the pattern for any particular load.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/913/UkbiGh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pdUkbiGhj) https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/673/nkDkED.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipnkDkEDj)

mtnbkr
03-11-2018, 09:32 AM
I saw the the Wilon sights before posting. The set themselves are about the same price as the barrel in question, but since I'll have to have a front sight base added to my existing barrel and the receiver D&Ted, the cost will climb quite a bit.

Chris

mtnbkr
03-11-2018, 09:42 AM
Any modification that I do to my guns is "mission driven" so for me, shooting slugs is secondary to shot loads. I don't personally need anything more than a visible bead sight to shoot shot loads effectively, but occasionally you'll run across a particular load that won't shoot to the bead as far as "zero" is concerned.

With that in mind I sorta split the difference and installed XS Big Dot night sights on a Remington adjustable sight barrel. For all practical purposes, it's just as fast as a bead but it allows me to shoot slugs with greater precision plus it allows me to "zero" the pattern for any particular load.

Not shooting to the bead hasn't been a problem *yet*, but it is on my mind. That could change if I have to move to targets further out than 25yds though. The price of this barrel really is good, but I'm adverse to spending the money and not seeing a tangible benefit for how I use the gun (or expect to use it).

I'm also concerned, by virtue of this being a Rem barrel, that it could have all of the QC issues of 870 barrels as equipped on complete guns. Of course, that would be discovered by testing, but I'm loathe to undergo that right now (yes, I'm lazy).

Chris

Tabasco
03-11-2018, 11:15 AM
Any modification that I do to my guns is "mission driven" so for me, shooting slugs is secondary to shot loads. I don't personally need anything more than a visible bead sight to shoot shot loads effectively, but occasionally you'll run across a particular load that won't shoot to the bead as far as "zero" is concerned.

With that in mind I sorta split the difference and installed XS Big Dot night sights on a Remington adjustable sight barrel. For all practical purposes, it's just as fast as a bead but it allows me to shoot slugs with greater precision plus it allows me to "zero" the pattern for any particular load.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/913/UkbiGh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pdUkbiGhj) https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/673/nkDkED.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipnkDkEDj)

I did the same thing with one of my 870's. Faster than the stock Remington sights, and not as snag prone. Try to find a barrel with a cyl. bore, as they work better with the Federal FliteControl. Vetting was pretty simple, sight for slugs @ 25 yards, and verify FC pattern @ 15 and 25 yards. The Remington rifle sight barrel's rear sight comes from the factory in the middle position, which works for the factory sights, but needs to be lowered with the XS sights installed. Note that the rear sight uses a metric hex wrench, cant remember which size but it's one of the smaller ones with my set. The front sight was pretty easy to replace with a vise, brass punch and tap hammer. Required a little filing on the bottom as per the instructions, but not much. I verified windage for slugs with the factory sights first, and noted they hit a bit to the right. Installed the front XS sight with this in mind (a little twords the right in the dovetail) and it worked out perfectly. The rear sight is now centered, and it works great.

TCinVA
03-11-2018, 12:43 PM
TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

People get 9 kinds of fucked up about shotguns due to persistent myths. The shotgun as typically used by hunters is shooting at a bird at 15-40 yards with a cloud of lead 5-10x times the size of the bird at 30 yards. The typical defensive use of a shotgun happens at closer range with a completely different munition.

The bead sight was designed for wing shooting...and that with a 24"-30" barrel on a gun with a stock that has a length of pull of 14".

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

The pedestal bead on the Remington 870 barrels can work...IF your ammo shoots to the point of aim of the bead (a lot simply won't) and IF you have enough experience mounting the shotgun to get a rock solid aiming reference in a hurry. This is not automatic. In the old days everybody grew up shooting shotguns...those days are no more. So you cannot count on people getting a rock solid reliable mount because they're doing something they've done since they were 10.

Knowing what a proper bead-sighted sight picture looks like is difficult to do in a hurry unless you have significant experience doing that...and most people do not have that experience.

If you want to see that in action, go to a shotgun class where they do some patterning. In my Home Defense Shotgun course I had the class pattern their guns at 15 yards. On top of loads that performed poorly, several of the students struggled to get a correct aiming reference under ideal lighting conditions in slow-fire. Some of the guns patterned off center. One fellow who showed up with a 14" 870 with a 12" LOP stock shot so high his patterns were barely on target.

You can do quality work with a bead IF your gun is set up right and IF you have considerable experience successfully using the bead. Even then, it's somewhat difficult if I take you out of a comfortable shooting position and make you use the shotgun the way Ed Mireles had to use his 12 gauge in the Miami Firefight.

For what we are trying to do, for the munitions we are using for defensive use of the shotgun, the bead is what I would consider an expert level sight...as in you must be pretty damn handy with a shotgun to intelligently direct a decently patterning buckshot load or a slug into a target with one at any realistic defensive distance.

I greatly prefer rifle-style sights on a defensive shotgun. I prefer them because having a visible rear reference takes the guess work out of the shot. I can get a shit mount because of an awkward shooting position, because it's sleeting and I'm wearing enough insulation to make me look like the Michelin Man, or because I just got woke up by my door getting smashed in and I fuck up the mount in all the excitement...and I can still get a quick read on how the gun is oriented, correct it, and then make the shot I need to make.

I can also adjust rifle style sights to match the point of impact of the load that I'm using so I don't have to try and remember any Kentucky windage when there's a dude trying to kill me. Remember that at typical defensive distances even shitty buckshot is going to be in a relatively tight pattern that you can miss with EASILY. Rifle style sights are the best bet for delivering the defensive payloads we are using reliably.

...which is why, when you think about it, shotguns dedicated to deer hunting typically have rifle style sights. Because putting a deer down humanely is fundamentally a very similar process to what we're trying to do in self defense with the shotgun.

The XS sights for the Remington 870 rifle sights work extremely well for our purposes. Think about it: Express sights were mounted on big bore long guns to be used on dangerous game at relatively close range. That's pretty much exactly what we are trying to do with shotguns. At close range they provide a quick sight reference that you can use to reliably make head shots with ease out to 15 yards if your buckshot patterns well enough to hold that size of a pattern. Same with slugs.

The defensive shotgun is the one place where the XS sights make any sense.

Ghost rings also work well. Depends on your preference. My go-to 870's have Remington rifle-style sights with either XS sights or the Tru-Glo TFX pro sights on them:

https://www.truglo.com/firearms-tactical/tfx-pro-remington-shotgun-sights.asp?catid=85782AB719C042A394366B7DDEB2FF93

Whatever 870 rifle style sight you pick, use some blue loc-tite and put some witness marks on the front and rear with a silver sharpie so you can tell if anything comes loose.

My 1301's have the factory ghost rings and they're fine.

Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

DocGKR
03-11-2018, 12:55 PM
RDS works well on defensive shotguns--kind of like how nicely they work on carbines intended for CQB....

Brian T
03-11-2018, 03:27 PM
I like the XS Big Dot bead for a bead only front. I havent had problems shooting accurately with them in the past, but I did shoot a lot of shotgun back in the day, in low level local competition, and on my family's land. Recently at the shop I work at, we have decided to re-build a few 870WMs for an inexpensive option to our admittedly high priced rifles. Because these are plain barrel (non-pedestal) beads we will offer the XS Big Dot as the first choice over a plain bead. Obviously there will be some counceling before and after purchase.

Another upgraded option we will offer, though it is more complicated to install, is the the XS DEA Sight (I cannot get the pic to attach here so you'll have to Google it). I am 50/50 on these over the Big Dot bead on my personal 870WM.

mtnbkr
03-11-2018, 03:35 PM
That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.
I haven't witnessed that with my gun, at "HD distances", it hits POA for me.


Even then, it's somewhat difficult if I take you out of a comfortable shooting position and make you use the shotgun the way Ed Mireles had to use his 12 gauge in the Miami Firefight.
That's a good point and one I wasn't thinking about. Most of my shotgunning is either on clay sports fields or in the woods hunting (small game and the occasional bird). I've never needed to take an awkward shot or unplanned one.


RDS works well on defensive shotguns--kind of like how nicely they work on carbines intended for CQB....
I like the idea of a RDS, but they just don't work well for me (astigmatism). The dots are always smeared and non-circular. I suppose they work well enough for CQB, but I had spending the money only to have something that looks like it was drawn by a shaky 3yo.

I'm going to go back and take another look at those barrels. At that price, if I don't like it, I can probably flip it for my investment on ebay or craigslist.

Chris

HopetonBrown
03-11-2018, 03:39 PM
I saw the the Wilon sights before posting. The set themselves are about the same price as the barrel in question, but since I'll have to have a front sight base added to my existing barrel and the receiver D&Ted, the cost will climb quite a bit.

Chris

Wilson Combat furnished and installed a set for $140 plus shipping.

SeriousStudent
03-11-2018, 04:35 PM
Just a polite and gentle correction - the name of the FBI agent in Miami was Ed Mireles, not Morales.

TCinVA
03-11-2018, 04:41 PM
Just a polite and gentle correction - the name of the FBI agent in Miami was Ed Mireles, not Morales.

I appear to be unable to edit my mistake at this point...thanks for pointing it out.

The man is a stud and deserves to have his name spelled right.

Dagga Boy
03-11-2018, 05:02 PM
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/sighting-systems-defensive-shotgun/

03RN
03-11-2018, 05:23 PM
RDS
GRS
Irons
Bead

RDS are better but because of past mounting setups I've avoided them. It looks like that is changing and I may look into getting another RMR to tryout.

Screwball
03-11-2018, 06:12 PM
My home defense shotgun does have rifle sights (20” 870 Police), but my backup is an Ithaca 37... which was a shortened vent-rib barrel.

Personally, I’m not a fan of just beads. Yea, you can use them... but I’ve seen A LOT of people use them wrong and shoot ceilings at indoor ranges. We actually had a local club (indoor) ban Shockwaves/TAC-14s because one of the RSOs shot out a light trying to prove they are safe to shoot (kind of had issue with that, because the club still allows shotguns and the RSO is a training group that utilizes the range).

I am waiting on my S/I vent rib barrel to come back. First one was a defective, as the extractor cut was off on the barrel from the factory. Prefer the rib, was tossing around putting a mid-bead in... but unsure of it.

Unobtanium
03-12-2018, 10:53 AM
RDS works well on defensive shotguns--kind of like how nicely they work on carbines intended for CQB....

I was kindof going to post just exactly this. There is a reason we run RDS>Irons. You focus on superimposing an object on the same visual plane, over another object vs. Lining up 3 objects on 2 or 3 visual planes (depending on how you want to argue it). Simpler is better when it comes to procecessing speed.

Doc_Glock
03-12-2018, 11:23 AM
TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

People get 9 kinds of fucked up about shotguns due to persistent myths. The shotgun as typically used by hunters is shooting at a bird at 15-40 yards with a cloud of lead 5-10x times the size of the bird at 30 yards. The typical defensive use of a shotgun happens at closer range with a completely different munition.

The bead sight was designed for wing shooting...and that with a 24"-30" barrel on a gun with a stock that has a length of pull of 14".

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

The pedestal bead on the Remington 870 barrels can work...IF your ammo shoots to the point of aim of the bead (a lot simply won't) and IF you have enough experience mounting the shotgun to get a rock solid aiming reference in a hurry. This is not automatic. In the old days everybody grew up shooting shotguns...those days are no more. So you cannot count on people getting a rock solid reliable mount because they're doing something they've done since they were 10.

Knowing what a proper bead-sighted sight picture looks like is difficult to do in a hurry unless you have significant experience doing that...and most people do not have that experience.

If you want to see that in action, go to a shotgun class where they do some patterning. In my Home Defense Shotgun course I had the class pattern their guns at 15 yards. On top of loads that performed poorly, several of the students struggled to get a correct aiming reference under ideal lighting conditions in slow-fire. Some of the guns patterned off center. One fellow who showed up with a 14" 870 with a 12" LOP stock shot so high his patterns were barely on target.

You can do quality work with a bead IF your gun is set up right and IF you have considerable experience successfully using the bead. Even then, it's somewhat difficult if I take you out of a comfortable shooting position and make you use the shotgun the way Ed Mireles had to use his 12 gauge in the Miami Firefight.

For what we are trying to do, for the munitions we are using for defensive use of the shotgun, the bead is what I would consider an expert level sight...as in you must be pretty damn handy with a shotgun to intelligently direct a decently patterning buckshot load or a slug into a target with one at any realistic defensive distance.

I greatly prefer rifle-style sights on a defensive shotgun. I prefer them because having a visible rear reference takes the guess work out of the shot. I can get a shit mount because of an awkward shooting position, because it's sleeting and I'm wearing enough insulation to make me look like the Michelin Man, or because I just got woke up by my door getting smashed in and I fuck up the mount in all the excitement...and I can still get a quick read on how the gun is oriented, correct it, and then make the shot I need to make.

I can also adjust rifle style sights to match the point of impact of the load that I'm using so I don't have to try and remember any Kentucky windage when there's a dude trying to kill me. Remember that at typical defensive distances even shitty buckshot is going to be in a relatively tight pattern that you can miss with EASILY. Rifle style sights are the best bet for delivering the defensive payloads we are using reliably.

...which is why, when you think about it, shotguns dedicated to deer hunting typically have rifle style sights. Because putting a deer down humanely is fundamentally a very similar process to what we're trying to do in self defense with the shotgun.

The XS sights for the Remington 870 rifle sights work extremely well for our purposes. Think about it: Express sights were mounted on big bore long guns to be used on dangerous game at relatively close range. That's pretty much exactly what we are trying to do with shotguns. At close range they provide a quick sight reference that you can use to reliably make head shots with ease out to 15 yards if your buckshot patterns well enough to hold that size of a pattern. Same with slugs.

The defensive shotgun is the one place where the XS sights make any sense.

Ghost rings also work well. Depends on your preference. My go-to 870's have Remington rifle-style sights with either XS sights or the Tru-Glo TFX pro sights on them:

https://www.truglo.com/firearms-tactical/tfx-pro-remington-shotgun-sights.asp?catid=85782AB719C042A394366B7DDEB2FF93

Whatever 870 rifle style sight you pick, use some blue loc-tite and put some witness marks on the front and rear with a silver sharpie so you can tell if anything comes loose.

My 1301's have the factory ghost rings and they're fine.

Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

This is great and I have asked the mods to make it a sticky for shotgun sights. Thanks for taking the time.

Unobtanium
03-12-2018, 11:40 AM
RDS
GRS
Irons
Bead

RDS are better but because of past mounting setups I've avoided them. It looks like that is changing and I may look into getting another RMR to tryout.

Scalarworks handles that for the Benelli, and Aridus handles that for the 870 and 1301 and soon 590?

mtnbkr
03-12-2018, 11:42 AM
but I’ve seen A LOT of people use them wrong and shoot ceilings at indoor ranges.

How does that happen? At what distance were they shooting?

Chris

P.E. Kelley
03-12-2018, 11:43 AM
My favorite set up. Low profile, sturdy and effective for flying things, running things, big things and small things.
Buck, Slug or Bird fodder.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p23313353-4.jpg
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p1170366454-4.jpg

ASH556
03-12-2018, 12:31 PM
Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a discussion of skill level as clearly my reload skills are lacking, and frankly I’m a little embarrassed to be posting this right below a world shotgun champ.

The video below involves a number of different targets including paper at up to 35yds (slug) and steel targets a various distances and sizes ranging from 6” up to poppers and a large spinner. (Bird) The point is that with a rib and bead sight combo, one can be very accurate (I’ve made 100yd slug hits) with slugs and also fast on small and moving targets with shot loads.

I’m inclined to make this point because some here are suggesting it is impossible to hit anything with a bead sight. For sure you need to confirm zero/pattern with your gun and your ammo, but it’s not as difficult as some are making it out to be. Conversely, I’ve found flying/moving targets significantly more difficult to hit with GR sights. I do like the concept of express style sights, but found them waaaaay too tall on the 870 I had, such that I couldn’t mount the gun properly.


https://youtu.be/edIFqpGmUeU

Cory
03-12-2018, 12:40 PM
How does that happen? At what distance were they shooting?

Chris

I wondered about this as well.

I've been shooting shotguns since I was maybe 10 or 11. Maybe it's harder for someone who has never used snowman sights, or a gold bead only on a bolt action 12. But I still have trouble seeing how they would hit a ceiling because of misaligned sights unless we are talking about shooting a little further out.

-Cory

Screwball
03-12-2018, 12:47 PM
How does that happen? At what distance were they shooting?

Chris

Usually, indoor ranges by me allow shotguns to only shoot at 25 yards (range maximum). If shorter, it might put the shot high on the target (eventually will hit the ceiling, further downrange). But if your range has overhead target tracks, look at the metal shielding where the arm meets the track... sometimes you see marks from those shots.

As for how does it happen... new shooter that thinks a shotgun is easy to shoot. With a bead sight, you don’t want to see barrel when sighting. You lose the bead behind the receiver aiming low, so for those that just put the bead on the target (with the barrel in sight picture), the barrel is aiming high.

Only way I could liken it is if you were aiming your pistol with the front sight noticeably higher than the rear. Looking along the top of the slide, with the sight dots making an isosceles triangle.

41magfan
03-12-2018, 01:13 PM
How does that happen? At what distance were they shooting?

Chris

Shooting the ceiling - with anything - has nuttin' to do with the sights.

TCinVA
03-12-2018, 01:55 PM
My favorite set up. Low profile, sturdy and effective for flying things, running things, big things and small things.
Buck, Slug or Bird fodder.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p23313353-4.jpg
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p1170366454-4.jpg

I like that setup. I believe Fisher uses handgun sights set into the rib on the shotgun on his guns and has had good results with that, too.

Vang Comp recently created a custom made sight that's a combination of express style sights and buckhorn sights that looks interesting as well.

TCinVA
03-12-2018, 02:02 PM
Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a discussion of skill level as clearly my reload skills are lacking, and frankly I’m a little embarrassed to be posting this right below a world shotgun champ.

The video below involves a number of different targets including paper at up to 35yds (slug) and steel targets a various distances and sizes ranging from 6” up to poppers and a large spinner. (Bird) The point is that with a rib and bead sight combo, one can be very accurate (I’ve made 100yd slug hits) with slugs and also fast on small and moving targets with shot loads.


The video also involves ideal shooting conditions...which we are not always afforded in defensive use of the shotgun.

You can absolutely use a bead sight successfully on a shotgun.

To do so requires more time on the gun. That's not a problem for someone who actually goes out and competes or trains with the shotgun regularly...most people using one for serious social purposes are not getting anywhere near the reps they need for that. In that one match stage you fired more shots through a shotgun than the last correctional officer I trained will in 5 years of qualifications.

03RN
03-12-2018, 02:53 PM
Scalarworks handles that for the Benelli, and Aridus handles that for the 870 and 1301 and soon 590?

Scalarworks makes one for the Mossberg as well

03RN
03-12-2018, 03:03 PM
Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a discussion of skill level as clearly my reload skills are lacking, and frankly I’m a little embarrassed to be posting this right below a world shotgun champ.

The video below involves a number of different targets including paper at up to 35yds (slug) and steel targets a various distances and sizes ranging from 6” up to poppers and a large spinner. (Bird) The point is that with a rib and bead sight combo, one can be very accurate (I’ve made 100yd slug hits) with slugs and also fast on small and moving targets with shot loads.

I’m inclined to make this point because some here are suggesting it is impossible to hit anything with a bead sight. For sure you need to confirm zero/pattern with your gun and your ammo, but it’s not as difficult as some are making it out to be. Conversely, I’ve found flying/moving targets significantly more difficult to hit with GR sights. I do like the concept of express style sights, but found them waaaaay too tall on the 870 I had, such that I couldn’t mount the gun properly.


https://youtu.be/edIFqpGmUeU

Beads can be used effectively, no doubt. Using 18" defensive shotguns in uncomfortable shooting positions would be much more difficult.

How long is that barrel?

I agree that GRS are not ideal for flying things but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
24397

03RN
03-12-2018, 06:33 PM
Adjustable rmr on sale for $325 at Cabela's. 10% back through active junky.

03RN
03-12-2018, 08:17 PM
Thanks for posting the links. I'm headed out for work.

Scalarworks website has the same price/free shipping. I wish I ordered from Brownells though. Active junky has 7% back:(

nalesq
03-12-2018, 08:50 PM
Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Toonces
03-12-2018, 09:07 PM
TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

Snip...good info...

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

Snip...Lots of good info...

So I thought to myself...This has to be wrong, I went 17/22 at a (the easiest sporting clays course I've ever shot, McMiller in Eagle, WI) sporting clays course with my 14" (registered) SBS, shooting low gun. I didn't bother with the long shots as it is cylinder bore after being chopped. I also went 44/50 that day with my normal (skeet) O/U shotgun. It was an exceptionally good day for me, even though I should have had 47/50.

So I went out with a box of 7/8 oz Federal slugs, a box of #1 Federal Flight Control buckshot, and a box of my 7/8 oz skeet reloads to see what's up. I was shooting at 15 paces (later measured at 40 feet with the help of my 6 year old daughter), which I figured was a very long shot in my house. Using my 870 with a 14" barrel and no bead/front sight, the pictures pretty much tell the tale.

Pic 1 is 2 rounds of #1 buck, 2 rounds of slug, and 1 round of 7/8 oz #9. I was shooting each shot from a quick low gun mount. You can see the two rounds of #1 buck at 3 and 12 o'clock, along with the wad marks. I initially thought the two slugs went 6" high at 12 o'clock, but I don't know what the third hole at 9 o'clock is. One of those three round holes is the wad... The #9 averaged well high of my aiming point as well, at 12 o'clock.

24407


Pic 2, I fired three rounds of slug at the knot, slow fire, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull. The three holes are about 4.5" above my aiming point. You can see the marks from the wads. Those marks are probably as deep as the #9 shot.
24406

Pic 3, I fired two rounds of #1 buck, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull.
24405

Pic 4 is what happens when you are walking through brush with your SBS on the top of your shooting bag. Time for disassembly and cleaning...
24404


As for how does it happen... new shooter that thinks a shotgun is easy to shoot. With a bead sight, you don’t want to see barrel when sighting. You lose the bead behind the receiver aiming low, so for those that just put the bead on the target (with the barrel in sight picture), the barrel is aiming high.

Only way I could liken it is if you were aiming your pistol with the front sight noticeably higher than the rear. Looking along the top of the slide, with the sight dots making an isosceles triangle.

This has nothing to do with a bead sight on a shotgun, and everything to do with someone screwing up their sight picture. It happens with every type of sight and (unbelievably) optic. At 25 yards. Or less. With no time pressure. And no one shooting back. Crap...


Beads can be used effectively, no doubt. Using 18" defensive shotguns in uncomfortable shooting positions would be much more difficult.

How long is that barrel?

I agree that GRS are not ideal for flying things but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
24397

Skill trumps a lot of things. And my dog looked a lot less impressed after I got back in from shooting.

24403

41magfan
03-12-2018, 09:10 PM
Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Both screws on my XS Remington sight have slotted heads.

TCinVA
03-13-2018, 07:56 AM
So I thought to myself...This has to be wrong, I went 17/22 at a (the easiest sporting clays course I've ever shot, McMiller in Eagle, WI) sporting clays course with my 14" (registered) SBS, shooting low gun. I didn't bother with the long shots as it is cylinder bore after being chopped. I also went 44/50 that day with my normal (skeet) O/U shotgun. It was an exceptionally good day for me, even though I should have had 47/50.

So I went out with a box of 7/8 oz Federal slugs, a box of #1 Federal Flight Control buckshot, and a box of my 7/8 oz skeet reloads to see what's up. I was shooting at 15 paces (later measured at 40 feet with the help of my 6 year old daughter), which I figured was a very long shot in my house. Using my 870 with a 14" barrel and no bead/front sight, the pictures pretty much tell the tale.

Pic 1 is 2 rounds of #1 buck, 2 rounds of slug, and 1 round of 7/8 oz #9. I was shooting each shot from a quick low gun mount. You can see the two rounds of #1 buck at 3 and 12 o'clock, along with the wad marks. I initially thought the two slugs went 6" high at 12 o'clock, but I don't know what the third hole at 9 o'clock is. One of those three round holes is the wad... The #9 averaged well high of my aiming point as well, at 12 o'clock.

24407

Pic 2, I fired three rounds of slug at the knot, slow fire, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull. The three holes are about 4.5" above my aiming point. You can see the marks from the wads. Those marks are probably as deep as the #9 shot.
24406

Pic 3, I fired two rounds of #1 buck, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull.
24405

Pic 4 is what happens when you are walking through brush with your SBS on the top of your shooting bag. Time for disassembly and cleaning...
24404


Nice work.

The vented rib on your rather fetching 870 SBS gives an advantage with a short barrel, as it sits high enough off the barrel so that it's only shooting moderately high. This is what the Remington pedestal bead is meant to accomplish, move the bead up higher so it is visible in the sight picture without the gun being inappropriately tilted. Trouble is that the pedestal bead is meant for an 18" barrel and as best I can tell they use the same height sight on the shorter barrels, too.

In the old days when people were using cut down Winchester model 12 shotguns and such the bead sat much, much lower and the problem was worse. I have a model 1300 Defender I picked up cheap and the factory bead on that gun sits right on the barrel. It's so low I can't use it with anything shorter than the Winchester youth stock for that gun that has about a 13" LOP....and even then it is rather uncomfortable to shoot because I have to drive my head hard into the stock to make the bead useful. I tried using the gun with a 12" LOP Hogue stock and it was shooting almost a foot high at 10 yards. Eventually I'm going to replace the front bead on that gun with something more useful...just too many things going on at once at the moment.

Tabasco
03-13-2018, 10:24 AM
Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

2mm works with mine.

GJM
03-13-2018, 01:14 PM
I have 14 inch shotguns with vent ribs with a fiber optic bead, vent ribs with a tritium bear, open rifle style sights, ghost ring sights, and ghost ring sights with a tunable sized aperture, T 1/2 mounted on the receiver via Scalar Works mounts or otherwise, and the Aimpoint S1 on the rib. All are viable options, depending upon what you want to accomplish, but the T1/2 gives me the most control with slugs, and a vent rib with an enhanced and zeroed bead on a vent rib is the simplest/lowest profile option, especially with buck.

nalesq
03-13-2018, 03:20 PM
2mm works with mine.

Thanks!

I would greatly prefer a flat head screw. I hate having to deal with tiny hex screws. I’m sure there is some engineering reason why tiny hex screws are used for applications like these, but besides the nuisance of trying to figure out what size they are and having the exact correct wrench for it, they seem to be too easy for laypersons to overtighten to the point where there is no easy way of getting them out again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

41magfan
03-13-2018, 05:08 PM
Thanks!

I would greatly prefer a flat head screw. I hate having to deal with tiny hex screws. I’m sure there is some engineering reason why tiny hex screws are used for applications like these, but besides the nuisance of trying to figure out what size they are and having the exact correct wrench for it, they seem to be too easy for laypersons to overtighten to the point where there is no easy way of getting them out again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Apparently, this is a fairly recent change as my factory iron-sighted barrel isn't that old. I just checked and the current part # replacement (elevation screw) is a hex-head while the windage screw remains a slotted head screw. Go figure ....

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/924/7YVH0V.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po7YVH0Vj)

Poconnor
03-13-2018, 09:40 PM
PE Kelley- tell us more about those sights, who installed them and what kind are they?

willie
03-13-2018, 09:55 PM
My shotguns hit where I look as a result of using one for 60 years. For me a bead works well, and when shooting buckshot, I intentionally aim using the bead. My suggestion(and one that would work for me too)is to choose simple open sights that allow the shooter to see daylight on either side of the font post, which should have a tritium insert. I dislike big, bulky "complicated" sights like ghost rings which clutter my view. Remington rifle type sights on some hunting and some law enforcement models work well for hunting, but I avoid them on security shotguns.

GyroF-16
03-13-2018, 10:35 PM
Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?
I’ve got a 1301T, and with the OEM stock, my thumb hits my nose in recoil, even with a 1” spacer. I have a long-ish neck, so when I lower my head to look through the sights, it goes forward a bit.
So I went to the Magpul stock (Thanks, Aaron!), and that raises the receiver bit. Then heeded Daryl’s advice and looked for an RDS. I got a MRO with a low mount, and it seems to work well (disclaimer- no shotgun classes yet... DB- when are you running your next one?).
I can see that a T-1 would be a bit lower. And a T-1 on an Aridus sight lower yet.
So is the advantage of a lower sight that it is similar to irons, for those that have decades of muscle memory mounting a gauge using a bead or ghost ring sights? Or is there an deeper inherent advantage in having an RDS mounted as low as feasible?

OlongJohnson
03-14-2018, 12:13 AM
In addition to my astigmatism that limits a red dot to a shotgun-inside-house solution, I have some other weird defect the eye doctor can't seem to identify that makes me unable to use standard notch-and-post rifle sights on a long gun. The front sight is tack-sharp right up until it drops in the notch, then it becomes a fuzzy football. All that and still better than 20-20 on the eye chart, even in middle age. Fortunately, a ghost ring setup doesn't have the issues like the notch, and works well.

I have a Williams firesight ghost ring setup on an 870 barrel. It went right on the Rem rifle sight bases - was labeled as such. I really like the sight picture and speed. Having the rear ring a little farther away reduces the sight radius compared to a 1301T, but I think the slightly sharper (more in focus due to being closer to the front sight) ring at least evens that out, if not beating it. Haven't done back to back tests between the Beretta and the Remmy... I really should. Unfortunately, Williams' site sucks and I can't find that part. I like it enough that I'm piecing together a similar setup for a Marlin 1894.

To the OP, be sure the clearance barrels aren't rifled slug gun barrels. Some or all Brennekes may work in them, but buck won't.

Unobtanium
03-14-2018, 12:58 AM
Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?
I’ve got a 1301T, and with the OEM stock, my thumb hits my nose in recoil, even with a 1” spacer. I have a long-ish neck, so when I lower my head to look through the sights, it goes forward a bit.
So I went to the Magpul stock (Thanks, Aaron!), and that raises the receiver bit. Then heeded Daryl’s advice and looked for an RDS. I got a MRO with a low mount, and it seems to work well (disclaimer- no shotgun classes yet... DB- when are you running your next one?).
I can see that a T-1 would be a bit lower. And a T-1 on an Aridus sight lower yet.
So is the advantage of a lower sight that it is similar to irons, for those that have decades of muscle memory mounting a gauge using a bead or ghost ring sights? Or is there an deeper inherent advantage in having an RDS mounted as low as feasible?

The advantage of putting the RDS on the same plane as the irons is that you don't have to "hunt" for it. You bring the gun up, and there it is.

mtnbkr
03-14-2018, 05:32 AM
To the OP, be sure the clearance barrels aren't rifled slug gun barrels. Some or all Brennekes may work in them, but buck won't.

They aren't. That was one of the first things I checked.

Having been keeping up with this thread, I'm not sure the shooting high with a bead thing is a universal issue. It certainly hasn't been for me. My gun in its current form (there's a pic of it in the gauge pic thread) shoots to point of aim at any household distance. I've used a bead-equipped shotgun my entire life for small game hunting and clay games, so I'm comfortable with the mechanics, but I was intrigued by the comment about sights having benefits in unusual situations. With the price of these barrels, I think I'm going to give them a try.

Chris

TCinVA
03-14-2018, 09:08 AM
Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?


A good repeatable cheek weld is useful to index the gun on target quickly. When the RDS is mounted too high, you sacrifice a little bit of speed at closer ranges because you bring the gun up as normal, then have to hunt a little bit to find the dot because it isn't presented in the center of your vision. When the dot is lower you can pick up a little bit of speed since the dot is a simpler aiming mechanism.

03RN
03-14-2018, 09:25 AM
A good repeatable cheek weld is useful to index the gun on target quickly. When the RDS is mounted too high, you sacrifice a little bit of speed at closer ranges because you bring the gun up as normal, then have to hunt a little bit to find the dot because it isn't presented in the center of your vision. When the dot is lower you can pick up a little bit of speed since the dot is a simpler aiming mechanism.

On top of that shotguns kick hard enough that poor cheek welds will be felt.

I actually like my RDS a lower 1/3 on my ARs but I'm not worried about how my face will feel after a couple hundred rounds.

Aray
03-14-2018, 12:12 PM
TCinVA and I disagreed quite a bit when we first discussed his thoughts on bead sights in regards to new shooters. Then I realized that I have been using a bead sighted shotgun for over 38 years (ouch).

I have no real remembrance of what it was like to learn to use a bead sight because I was 8 years old when I started, but I have seen new adult shooters struggle with them. I really believe that a quality RDS with BUIS is a really good setup for someone who is learning to use a defensive shotgun from ground zero. I could wax poetic about mastering iron sights first before using a RDS and tell people to "Get off my lawn" but the reality is, most adult students aren't willing and/or able to put the time in to build that proficiency. RDS are also much more forgiving when used from improvised/compromised positions which don't allow for a proper mount.

GJM
03-14-2018, 12:20 PM
A consideration is the stock on your shotgun, and ideally your sighting system will be located so you have a natural cheek weld, which promotes fast/accurate shooting and comfort when shooting heavy loads. Some stocks, like the Magpul and Benelli Comfortech, allow you to adjust comb height, but many other stocks are not adjustable. Older Benelli rifle sight barrels, for example, have the sights so low, it smashes my cheek bone when firing Brenneke slugs. Some red dot mounts place the optic so high, you have to lift your face to see the dot, which hurts speed while unnecessarily increasing bore/optic offset.

jlw
03-14-2018, 08:04 PM
I had a bead/pedestal 870P that would throw good buck patterns, but I had to KY windage slugs in at 50 yards by holding over the target's right shoulder. While I liked the speed of the bead, my eyes began to object once in their fourth decade. That shotgun now has a set of MMC ghost rings on it.

I have several shotguns with various ghost ring setups, but I prefer the sight picture from my rifle sighted 870P. I replaced the factory sights with Trijicon night sights. I'm faster with them than I am ghost rings.

I have little relevant experience with the XS V-rear and big dot front.

I have little relevant experience with a red dot equipped shotgun. I did recently put a RMR on an 870 and sighted it in with Brenneke slugs. It's purpose will be for planned vehicle take downs.

I will probably sacrifice one of the ghost ring equipped shotgun to try the "Haught mod". I think I would like the more open sight picture.

mtnbkr
03-16-2018, 11:53 AM
Crud. They sold out before I could get back out there.

I did find out by checking specs after I returned home that these were 20" barrels and not 18" like I assumed.

Anyway, learned a lot in this thread and will be reconsidering my shotgun sighting options. I won't be able to make any changes before my class in May, but depending on what the class shows me, I may make some adjustments later this year.

FWIW, I did some practice mounts with the gun and the bead comes up to perfect alignment every time. I'm always looking straight down the top of the receiver with the bead just hovering over top of it and no barrel visible. At this point, my only concerns are "awkward position" shooting and >25yds slug shooting (which isn't relevant for home or property defense in my current abode).

Chris

TCinVA
05-24-2018, 07:39 AM
TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

People get 9 kinds of fucked up about shotguns due to persistent myths. The shotgun as typically used by hunters is shooting at a bird at 15-40 yards with a cloud of lead 5-10x times the size of the bird at 30 yards. The typical defensive use of a shotgun happens at closer range with a completely different munition.

The bead sight was designed for wing shooting...and that with a 24"-30" barrel on a gun with a stock that has a length of pull of 14".

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

The pedestal bead on the Remington 870 barrels can work...IF your ammo shoots to the point of aim of the bead (a lot simply won't) and IF you have enough experience mounting the shotgun to get a rock solid aiming reference in a hurry. This is not automatic. In the old days everybody grew up shooting shotguns...those days are no more. So you cannot count on people getting a rock solid reliable mount because they're doing something they've done since they were 10.

Knowing what a proper bead-sighted sight picture looks like is difficult to do in a hurry unless you have significant experience doing that...and most people do not have that experience.

If you want to see that in action, go to a shotgun class where they do some patterning. In my Home Defense Shotgun course I had the class pattern their guns at 15 yards. On top of loads that performed poorly, several of the students struggled to get a correct aiming reference under ideal lighting conditions in slow-fire. Some of the guns patterned off center. One fellow who showed up with a 14" 870 with a 12" LOP stock shot so high his patterns were barely on target.

You can do quality work with a bead IF your gun is set up right and IF you have considerable experience successfully using the bead. Even then, it's somewhat difficult if I take you out of a comfortable shooting position and make you use the shotgun the way Ed Mireles had to use his 12 gauge in the Miami Firefight.

For what we are trying to do, for the munitions we are using for defensive use of the shotgun, the bead is what I would consider an expert level sight...as in you must be pretty damn handy with a shotgun to intelligently direct a decently patterning buckshot load or a slug into a target with one at any realistic defensive distance.

I greatly prefer rifle-style sights on a defensive shotgun. I prefer them because having a visible rear reference takes the guess work out of the shot. I can get a shit mount because of an awkward shooting position, because it's sleeting and I'm wearing enough insulation to make me look like the Michelin Man, or because I just got woke up by my door getting smashed in and I fuck up the mount in all the excitement...and I can still get a quick read on how the gun is oriented, correct it, and then make the shot I need to make.

I can also adjust rifle style sights to match the point of impact of the load that I'm using so I don't have to try and remember any Kentucky windage when there's a dude trying to kill me. Remember that at typical defensive distances even shitty buckshot is going to be in a relatively tight pattern that you can miss with EASILY. Rifle style sights are the best bet for delivering the defensive payloads we are using reliably.

...which is why, when you think about it, shotguns dedicated to deer hunting typically have rifle style sights. Because putting a deer down humanely is fundamentally a very similar process to what we're trying to do in self defense with the shotgun.

The XS sights for the Remington 870 rifle sights work extremely well for our purposes. Think about it: Express sights were mounted on big bore long guns to be used on dangerous game at relatively close range. That's pretty much exactly what we are trying to do with shotguns. At close range they provide a quick sight reference that you can use to reliably make head shots with ease out to 15 yards if your buckshot patterns well enough to hold that size of a pattern. Same with slugs.

The defensive shotgun is the one place where the XS sights make any sense.

Ghost rings also work well. Depends on your preference. My go-to 870's have Remington rifle-style sights with either XS sights or the Tru-Glo TFX pro sights on them:

https://www.truglo.com/firearms-tactical/tfx-pro-remington-shotgun-sights.asp?catid=85782AB719C042A394366B7DDEB2FF93

Whatever 870 rifle style sight you pick, use some blue loc-tite and put some witness marks on the front and rear with a silver sharpie so you can tell if anything comes loose.

My 1301's have the factory ghost rings and they're fine.

Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

I'm quoting this because I have a couple of updated bits to share:

1. Last Friday I went through Pat Goodale's Defensive Shotgun class and we did a fair bit of work from the weak shoulder, running the gun one handed, and shooting from awkward positions. It's fair to say when you're using a Remington 870 weak-shoulder-only you are well outside your comfort zone and you probably have a sub-optimal mount...but with rifle sights I still had no problem hitting. It was downright easy.

We also did a fair bit of work with slugs at distance. Shooting from your weak shoulder to engage a 15 yard target and then having to slug select and hit another target 50 yards away from your weak shoulder in an awkward shooting position really shows the value of good rifle-style sights on your shotgun. Most people were shooting rifle style sights. The few running bead-only in the class were struggling mightily.

2. I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with Ed Mireles for dinner Tuesday night and I had the chance to ask him about use of the shotgun. He told me that he was a step ahead of most folks in his agency because he actually checked out a gun that he used the whole time he was working the violent crimes unit and he cleaned and maintained it himself rather than just grabbing a random shotgun from the armory. He told me that despite this, he'd never patterned his shotgun with the agency issued buckshot and to his knowledge neither had anyone else.

He also told me that while he was a young pup in the Feeb an older agent who had been a USMC Captain took him under the wing and due to Ed being a big strong former Marine encouraged him to do some unusual things. Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

Tabasco
05-24-2018, 01:22 PM
Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

Learning to do pull-ups is probably the single best thing I've done to improve my shooting. My grip strength improved dramatically. I'm not great, but I shoot better than I should considering my lack at times of actual range time. That, and dry firing. I was 255lbs when I first tried and it took me 8 months to be able to do one. After one, 2,3,4+ just tool a little more work. For all y'all who say you cant do them, yes you can. It just takes dedication. If you manage to loose weight, it get easier.

Tensaw
05-25-2018, 09:18 PM
Tabasco - Thanks for that nugget. That's all the nudge I needed to start getting after pull-ups. The things you learn in a shotgun thread on PF.... :D

Tabasco
05-26-2018, 11:08 AM
Tabasco - Thanks for that nugget. That's all the nudge I needed to start getting after pull-ups. The things you learn in a shotgun thread on PF.... :D

What I did to work up to my first successful pull-up:

Find a bar, you can get one of those bars that fits in a door frame. Mine's in my garage so it don't ugly up my house. I was lucky when I lived in San Francisco, there are numerous par courses the City set up around town, almost all have pull up bars.

Get a step stool, and step up where the bar is at chin level. Grab the bar, I use palms facing away, kick the stool away and slowly lower yourself. Do this multiple times. This gets your arms and back muscles accustomed to dealing with your full body weight.

Lat pull-downs with a weight machine if you have access to one. Increase the weight over time.

I was lucky that one of the par courses has these real low bars, I think intended for people who have trouble doing a real push up on the ground. I sort of did a reverse push up my puting my heels on the ground, hanging by my arms in push up position and pulling up to my neck. I read somewhere that Jump School in the Army has something similar. This was helpful getting my biceps in shape. The hardest part is conditioning your back muscles that don't really get used unless you do a pull up.

Don't do pull ups every day, especially if you are older. Give your body time to recover. I started when I was 37, am now 50+ and still keep at it. Age is no excuse. I do them every other day. If something comes up and you are unable to do them for a month, don't fret, it will take a few months before your ability will degrade to the point where they will be difficult and you might have to start over. It's a great way to burn off excess blood sugar, and provides real usable strength.

I max out at 10 or 11 reps, no real reason go higher unless you wan't to or jump out of aircraft for a living. I also do them in 'ladders' 1-2-3-4-5-5-4-3-2-1. I'm not a motivated fitness nut, but have managed to keep this up, along with push ups for 15+ years. Something is better than nothing.

Sorry for the thread drift...

Ed L
05-27-2018, 01:46 AM
I'm quoting this because I have a couple of updated bits to share:

1. Last Friday I went through Pat Goodale's Defensive Shotgun class and we did a fair bit of work from the weak shoulder, running the gun one handed, and shooting from awkward positions. It's fair to say when you're using a Remington 870 weak-shoulder-only you are well outside your comfort zone and you probably have a sub-optimal mount...but with rifle sights I still had no problem hitting. It was downright easy.

We also did a fair bit of work with slugs at distance. Shooting from your weak shoulder to engage a 15 yard target and then having to slug select and hit another target 50 yards away from your weak shoulder in an awkward shooting position really shows the value of good rifle-style sights on your shotgun. Most people were shooting rifle style sights. The few running bead-only in the class were struggling mightily.

2. I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with Ed Mireles for dinner Tuesday night and I had the chance to ask him about use of the shotgun. He told me that he was a step ahead of most folks in his agency because he actually checked out a gun that he used the whole time he was working the violent crimes unit and he cleaned and maintained it himself rather than just grabbing a random shotgun from the armory. He told me that despite this, he'd never patterned his shotgun with the agency issued buckshot and to his knowledge neither had anyone else.

He also told me that while he was a young pup in the Feeb an older agent who had been a USMC Captain took him under the wing and due to Ed being a big strong former Marine encouraged him to do some unusual things. Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

Both of yours were excellent posts, as was your review of the Pat Goodall class.

Reading your post I can definitely see the value of something other than a bead sight--even for just buckshot at home defense distances.

I think there is a huge disconnect between what most people buy and use as a home defense shotgun vs. what is covered in a class like the one you described. I am not at all criticizing the class--it sounds like a well run comprehensive class.

But most people who have a shotgun for home defense have some type of Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel and bead sights. If it is a Remington 870 it likely has a magazine extension to allow it to hold 5-6 rounds in the magazine. In saying "most people" I am not referring to members of this forum who post in this category.

They bought it for less than half the price of an AR and they envision it as something to use in home defense with buckshot at a max range of 15 yards.

For someone like this, slugs would not even enter into the picture.

Guns like this would be very limited in the class you described.

Hopefully these people have at least tried their guns with different buckshot to found the load that shot closest to point of aim.

Hell, I have a 90s vintage Benelli Super90M1 with rifle sights that required me to remove the clamp between the magazine tube and the barrel because the pressure it was exerting was causing the gun to shoot buckshot so that it impacted mostly on the right side of a silhouette target at 50 feet. With the clamp removed it shot dead on.

A lot of people who have an AR as a primary home defense longarm may also have some type of pump shotgun, but it often falls into the basic category.

I can definitely see the value of a gun like the Beretta 1301, which seems custom made for the class you described, as well as a perfect platform for improvements, like a 2 round magazine extension and even mounting a red dot sight.

There is something about shotguns that make a lot of people want to keep them clean and basic. In years past, when the prices were lower and quality from the factory was higher, a lot of people picked up a pump action shotgun with an 18" barrel and bead sight and called it good. It was seen as a home defense weapon that was ready to go out of the box. This is especially the case if you lived someplace where it was easier to legally buy a longarm than a handgun. I've always told people that a pump shotgun requires patterning and practice operating, but sadly many people who buy it strictly for home defense fire a limited number of rounds through it and call it good.

TCinVA
05-27-2018, 09:02 PM
Hopefully these people have at least tried their guns with different buckshot to found the load that shot closest to point of aim.


That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31246-Shotgun-Skills-class-recap-5-12-18-Culpeper-Va



I struggled with putting my shots where I wanted them once we got past 7yds or so. I never had a problem in lower pressure range trips, so to have it happen in class repeatedly was disheartening.


You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

Drang
05-28-2018, 06:19 AM
Saw a couple of mentions of RMRs. What size dot do folks recommend?

Unobtanium
05-29-2018, 05:05 AM
That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31246-Shotgun-Skills-class-recap-5-12-18-Culpeper-Va



You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

Yep. I've had bead sighted guns that shot FEET off target at 15 yards. Then I've had some that were dead on.

JHC
12-10-2018, 03:10 PM
That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31246-Shotgun-Skills-class-recap-5-12-18-Culpeper-Va



You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

The bead on my 870 barrel was spot on for FCC buck. I painted the bead white to improve visibility of it in low light.

Then, in fading light at dusk I convinced a big doe to investigate my bleating. She was very cagey, very cautious. At the last possible minute of shooting light she gave me a silhouette of her neck at like 15 yards. BOOM. I fucking missed. I realized my error after. In the poor light I wanted to see my white bead really well and . . . elevated it to see more of it and shot over her neck. She even ducked and hauled ass. Zero blood.

I then placed an order for an 18.5" cylinder barrel with Rem rifle lights and zeroed. Slugs and FCC to same POI at 25 yards. The white dot and white triangle on the rear made all the difference in bagging the buck I just posted in the hunting thread. That shot was in the FIRST minute of shooting light.

I dun learnt my lesson. I missed, "WITH A SHOTGUN???" my hunting buddy bellowed.

TCinVA
12-10-2018, 03:23 PM
I missed, "WITH A SHOTGUN???" my hunting buddy bellowed.

Legit LOL.

Since you brought this thread to the fore, I mentioned a few pages back that I have a 1300 Defender that is essentially useless with a bead. Since then I've fixed it:

33139

Vang Comp will silver solder some Remington rifle-style sights on a Winchester 1300 if you ask them to.

OlongJohnson
12-11-2018, 06:06 PM
I like this Williams Fire Sight Ghost Ring set. It goes right onto the Remington factory rifle sight barrel. Same basic sight picture that comes from the factory on the 1301 Tactical.

Due to the peculiar weirdness of my ~20/15 astigmatism, I can't do normal notch-and-post iron sights on a long gun. But the ghost ring works perfectly for me.

https://www.amazon.com/Williams-Remington-Fire-Sight-Ghost/dp/B0143BD1JS