Trade offs between sights and trigger

[GJM]

Historically, when shooting low probability targets, I have tried to hold the sights steady, on the exact spot I am trying to hit, while making the trigger fire the shot. That requires me to manage multiple variables, and after a bunch of that kind of shooting, I have become fatigued.

This week, as part of five successive range sessions learning to love a Gen5/34 trigger, I decided to accept reasonable sight (or in my case dot) alignment, and essentially leave that alignment alone, while focusing almost exclusively on trigger press. Enough focus on trigger that I am almost “un-anticipating” the shot. That started yesterday, and after firing 400 rounds of very difficult shooting like two inch dots at 7-10 yards, groups on the head box at 25 and further, Bill drills at 30-35 yards, and eight inch steel from 20-35 yards, I was completely refreshed. I finished that session with a ten round group on the head box at 25 yards into about three inches.

I dry fired that more last night and this morning, and then hit the range today to see whether it was trick of the day or something more meaningful for me. Same result as yesterday, with some of the most consistent high level shooting I have done, except when I decided to quit, completely refreshed, I had fired 700 rounds in around 90 minutes. I then finished with a final ten shot group into the head at 25 yards, into three or four inches.

My analysis is that a high percentage of the bad shots I fire are due to bad trigger control. Fussing with “extra” sight alignment adds another variable that complicates a smooth trigger press, and may subtract more than it adds. I plan to keep working with this over coming days to see how it develops.

[GyroF-16]

GJM-
This is an interesting idea... thank you for sharing.
Please keep us posted, and feel free to expand on the concept.

I think I’ll try it myself I My next range session.

[miller_man]

Very, very insightful.

I have been working (still) pretty hard at shooting small groups at distance (so far 15yds is my limits - 3-4" groups). I have been focusing much more on trying to just- focus on/think/see the front sight lifting. When I MAKE seeing the front sight lift my only focus, I shoot better. Possibly, as I'm interpreting you could be saying - keeping the mind focused on a single, simple task?

[41magfan]

99.9% of the people I encounter overwork the muzzle orientation (sight use) and underwork the trigger pull. I suspect that is true for shooters at the very highest level, as well. I'm guessing that Doug Koenig doesn't usually miss because his muzzle isn't pointing in the right place, he misses because his trigger pull disrupted the muzzle orientation.

The "wobble" almost always appears to be excessive and fools the brain into thinking that the shot needs to happen at a precise moment in time. That's what causes the anticipation that manifest itself by whatever term you like to use (flinch, jerk, lean on, push, etc). Letting the gun fire is much different than making the gun fire.

During an Academy class last week I took a poke at a cardboard silhouette target turned edgewise at 6 yards. I split the target on the first attempt.

Just to be clear, I cannot maintain a sight picture steady enough to keep the sights on a target that small 100% of the time. But, I know that is an illusion. The "wobble" (deviations in sight movement) that I see is acceptable if I can pull the trigger smooth enough to not seriously interfere with that "wobble" during the firing sequence.

Some time later, I tried that stunt again with an LCP at 3 yards ..... it took 2 shots that time.

I tell folks all the time that shooting a handgun is very simple - it's just not easy.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/923/ixniAF.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnixniAFj)
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/320x240q90/923/e9ntpi.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pne9ntpij)

ETA: I've been preaching this sermon for over 35 years but jump to 5:43 in this video if you'd rather hear it from an "expert". It applies to all shooting with any weapons platform and sighting system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Q3_vwJlNA&t=344s

[Doublestack45]

My father was an avid golfer and one trick he used to smooth out my erratic swing when I was younger was to suggest a fifty percent motion when bringing the club back. Doing this, I usually hit the ball as far or farther than when I wound up. I wonder if this is similar in how the mind controls the body's movement in a more "quiet" state.
I'll try this when I shoot tomorrow.

[Robinson]

This aligns pretty well with some things TGO has said.

[P.E. Kelley]

We rarely miss due to misaligned sights, we misalign our sights with poor trigger manipulation.

[Cory]

We rarely miss due to misaligned sights, we misalign our sights with poor trigger manipulation.

You mentioned this on the Summit and it was pretty eye opening.

-Cory

[ranger]

I went to the range yesterday and specifically tried to put in more emphasis on trigger pull and less emphasis on perfect sight alignment and it helped. I also saw a video from TGO talking about more emphasis on trigger and less on sight alignment.

[P.E. Kelley]

You mentioned this on the Summit and it was pretty eye opening.

-Cory

You are the guy that watched it! Thank you!

[BN]

Some of us old guys, all we have left is trigger control. ;)

[LSP552]

Some of us old guys, all we have left is trigger control. ;)

Exactly! Sucks...but is what it is.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28223-Target-focus-a-paradigm-shift

[Poconnor]

I was always surprised by how good my hits were with imperfect sight picture or sight alignment and perfect trigger press. I would illustrate this to new hires by firing a target with gross sight alignment errors and good trigger control at 7 or ten yards. Four rounds with the front sight on the left side of the rear notch, 4 on the right side, 4 high, 4 low would give a target with four clusters on the torso. It’s like my favorite pat Rogers tee shirt, see the motherfucker, shoot the motherfucker, stop thinking about it. Plus in the last few years I can’t see the front sight as good anymore so it’s all in the finger

[ER_STL]

Curious - during these sessions, were you flipping-and-pressing the trigger or have you continued on with the method of slacking out the trigger and then breaking the shot? My limited handling of the Gen5 leads me to believe it would favor the first method.

[RJ]

Curious - during these sessions, were you flipping-and-pressing the trigger or have you continued on with the method of slacking out the trigger and then breaking the shot? My limited handling of the Gen5 leads me to believe it would favor the first method.

Interested in this answer.

I spent a majority of time yesterday taking the slack out of my 19.5 and pressing carefully. Made some good progress; 10/10 on FYL at 5 yards, 92-2X on The Test. Good for me.

At the end I was messing around with how to prep for Gabe White Standards, and I shot a bunch of controlled pairs into a 3x5 at 7 yards. I put 18/20 inside the box, basically shot them all into one ragged hole. I was shooting pretty quickly. Hmmm.

[GJM]

Curious - during these sessions, were you flipping-and-pressing the trigger or have you continued on with the method of slacking out the trigger and then breaking the shot? My limited handling of the Gen5 leads me to believe it would favor the first method.

Yes. :D

I flip and press back to the initial wall, plus some. Then roll through the rest.

[1slow]

I was shooting yesterday at 25, 50 and 100 yards with HK P30 V1 LEM 9mm and HK USPT45 cocked and locked. 25 yards was 6"x6" head plates of MGM BCC steel, 50 yards was MGM BCC body, 100yards was IDPA size steel.

All of my bad shots were either bad trigger presses or inconsistent grip tension, mainly bad trigger presses. This was true with both pistols. I flip and press.

[CCT125US]

Did a bit of shooting at 125 yds today with the USP9c-SD. Finishing flat becomes very important out there.

[Clusterfrack]

GJM, thanks for starting this thread. Coincidentally, I've been exploring the variables required for making tough shots as well: 1) sights, 2) trigger, and 3) grip. I have found that if fatigue occurs, my accuracy declines. And if my trigger press is good, I do not need a full-power crush grip--especially with a heavy Shadow2 where free(er) recoil does not affect POI.

Today, I did not find that focusing on trigger more and sights less made for better groups at 25 yds. My groups were similar (5"), but the "less sights" group ended up shifted 3" right due (I think) to lighting conditions and less focus on rear alignment.

When I moved back to 55yds on a 10" plate, I started to see what you're describing, but the sight picture was very unambiguous--plate against dark soil with good lighting. So, no unicorns farting rainbows for me yet... but I'll keep playing with this.

One more thought: there are actually two sight variables: alignment and wobble. I think you're saying that trying to eliminate wobble isn't needed, and my conclusion is that alignment on small/distant targets cannot be taken for granted.

[GJM]

What I think I am saying is that it is easier to manage one variable than two, and so far I like the trade off of less sights, allowing for a less interrupted trigger press.

[Mr_White]

I shot a bunch of controlled pairs into a 3x5 at 7 yards. I put 18/20 inside the box, basically shot them all into one ragged hole. I was shooting pretty quickly. Hmmm.

YES

Free yourself by throwing off the yoke of expectation

Discover what's possible, and work to gather consistency


ClusterfrackOne more thought: there are actually two sight variables: alignment and wobble. I think you're saying that trying to eliminate wobble isn't needed, and my conclusion is that alignment on small/distant targets cannot be taken for granted.[/QUOTE]

I believe I have seen people reporting Kyle Defoor makes that point in class.

[Larry Sellers]

Something to the tune of angular vs parallel deviation...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[joshs]

Historically, when shooting low probability targets, I have tried to hold the sights steady, on the exact spot I am trying to hit, while making the trigger fire the shot. That requires me to manage multiple variables, and after a bunch of that kind of shooting, I have become fatigued.

This week, as part of five successive range sessions learning to love a Gen5/34 trigger, I decided to accept reasonable sight (or in my case dot) alignment, and essentially leave that alignment alone, while focusing almost exclusively on trigger press. Enough focus on trigger that I am almost “un-anticipating” the shot. That started yesterday, and after firing 400 rounds of very difficult shooting like two inch dots at 7-10 yards, groups on the head box at 25 and further, Bill drills at 30-35 yards, and eight inch steel from 20-35 yards, I was completely refreshed. I finished that session with a ten round group on the head box at 25 yards into about three inches.

I dry fired that more last night and this morning, and then hit the range today to see whether it was trick of the day or something more meaningful for me. Same result as yesterday, with some of the most consistent high level shooting I have done, except when I decided to quit, completely refreshed, I had fired 700 rounds in around 90 minutes. I then finished with a final ten shot group into the head at 25 yards, into three or four inches.

My analysis is that a high percentage of the bad shots I fire are due to bad trigger control. Fussing with “extra” sight alignment adds another variable that complicates a smooth trigger press, and may subtract more than it adds. I plan to keep working with this over coming days to see how it develops.

I haven't read Beyond Fundamentals recently, but I think Enos describes almost the exact same thing in his discussion of "attention."

[LSP552]

What I think I am saying is that it is easier to manage one variable than two, and so far I like the trade off of less sights, allowing for a less interrupted trigger press.

Good thread!

Bruce Gray once told me that focusing on the sights gives our conscious something to do so our subconscious can work the trigger. I think there is an element of truth to that, at least for me. I tend to do my best shooting when I’m not overly thinking about the trigger.

It was the correct critique of my performance at the time. I’m sure of one thing.....

When it comes to shooting, there is generally no right answer, just a right answer for the individual.

We grow as shooters when we try new stuff. Not being able to get to the range for the last couple of months is driving me nuts. I’d like to experiment some more with this.

[45dotACP]

Looking at my match video lately, I am a flip and presser....and I hit a large number of alphas in matches when controlling for problems related to transitions and my general slowness.

Playing around with Gabe Whites focal depth shift has been interesting...I can't quite keep focal depth the whole match, but on targets I have been able to, it has been very accurate.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[P.E. Kelley]

I am old, so I made the sight's journey some years ago...
"1st Master" and 2nd overall. US poppers out to 35 yards. Tight shots and no-shoots.


http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p369065929-4.jpg

[JHC]

"Simplify. Always simplify." - Plato

Shooting with target focus instead of front sight focus validate that it's the trigger. Yesterday I made of point to shoot at 50 yards wearing my glasses instead of monovision contacts. So I had a nice clear bullseye but a completely blurry front post. Press being prioritized when you can't see as much about the sights. And shot a 50 yard PR.

I suppose with the RDS there can a temptation to chase that dot's wiggling out there.

24381

[spinmove_]

Good thread!

Bruce Gray once told me that focusing on the sights gives our conscious something to do so our subconscious can work the trigger. I think there is an element of truth to that, at least for me. I tend to do my best shooting when I’m not overly thinking about the trigger.

It was the correct critique of my performance at the time. I’m sure of one thing.....

When it comes to shooting, there is generally no right answer, just a right answer for the individual.

We grow as shooters when we try new stuff. Not being able to get to the range for the last couple of months is driving me nuts. I’d like to experiment some more with this.

This.

Personally I find that the less I consciously focus on the trigger the better I generally shoot. Case in point I shot 3 groups of 10 rounds at 25 yards in live fire practice yesterday. My best group of the 3 was an 89-1x (G19.4, Dawson Charger FO front/blacked out rear, G17.3 trigger bar with stock internals lightly polished, #gadget). The round pulled left was me not counter-torquing enough with the support hand so I refocused. The low shot was poor lighting with essentially black sights. All of my conscious attention was on the front sight and almost nothing but.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180312/0cec1b9be325c57e2b3c68069b30c9ff.jpg


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[41magfan]

I thought it might be appropriate to interject something for the uninitiated that might be viewing this thread;

We're not talking about muzzle orientation and trigger pull being mutually exclusive elements since each and every shot requires a certain amount of both. You can't arbitrarily neglect one at the expense of the other. In fact, that is the mark of an accomplished shooter - knowing how much of each is necessary to get a proper hit.

If you're struggling with grasping this concept, enlist the help of a fellow shooter and let them pull the trigger for you while you work the sights. For this to have maximum benefit, the "Coach" should place his finger over the shooters finger so the shooter can feel what a controlled trigger pull feels like and experience the "surprise" of the shot breaking.

When you isolate the two tasks (trigger pull and muzzle orientation) using this exercise, it becomes immediately apparent what matters most. If the shooter is honest, he will admit that the sight picture seldom "appears" to be adequate enough, but hits predictably occur when the trigger is manipulated correctly.

What's interesting about this exercise is that when the roles are reversed (the student/shooter becomes the Coach pulling the trigger for the Instructor) the same thing occurs - predictable hits. Let me say that again; a student with limited experience pulling the trigger can perform the task adequately when he's not distracted by trying to make the sights look a certain way on the target.

When I'm successful in getting the shooter to grasp the idea that he must mentally isolate the trigger pull from the visual input his brain is processing, the light bulb will usually come on. When that occurs, the real learning in how to shoot well can begin.

I hope this isn't seen as a distraction to the thread.

[EVP]

I am old, so I made the sight's journey some years ago...
"1st Master" and 2nd overall. US poppers out to 35 yards. Tight shots and no-shoots.


http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p369065929-4.jpg


Them sights must help you out.....haha

[P.E. Kelley]

Them sights must help you out.....haha

The lack of bevel on the mag well and that lanyard loop were more difficult to overcome!

[JHC]

What I think I am saying is that it is easier to manage one variable than two, and so far I like the trade off of less sights, allowing for a less interrupted trigger press.

Proper RDS shooting - is done by concentrating on the target vs the dot correct? That is what I generally understand to be the method.

I've notices shooting with target focus and blurry sights that a high vis front like the HD or a FO front - creates a RDS like effect as you see the high vis post superimpose on the target.

Is target focus and great trigger work the better mousetrap than front sight focus when shooting irons?

[41magfan]

For us mortals, the continuum of sight use (hard focus, soft focus, or not in our line of sight) is largely determined by the three constant variables; the size of the target, the distance to the target and the constraint of time. Some folks are obviously born with a lot more hand/eye coordination than others, so shooting takes less effort. The rest of us make for what we don't have with training and practice.

I said all that just to say this. Just as with iron sights, the variables (and my skill) determine how soft or hard my focus is on the "dot" or reticle in a scope. The greater the precision requirement, the greater my focus needs to be on the dot/reticle.

Again, just about everyone I know tends to overwork the sights (or dot) and underwork the trigger in relation to the difficulty of the shot being presented. In a defensive use setting, the difficulty of the shot isn't usually that tough, but people routinely miss at very close range. Why? Because simply extending the gun to arms length and yanking the trigger is a nothing more than glorified noise making in terms of predictability.

I tell my students, "If you're going to aim - aim, if you're going to point - point, but you've got to do one or the other well enough to hit the target. But yanking the trigger tends to nullify either technique of orienting the muzzle.

[StraitR]

Proper RDS shooting - is done by concentrating on the target vs the dot correct? That is what I generally understand to be the method.

I've notices shooting with target focus and blurry sights that a high vis front like the HD or a FO front - creates a RDS like effect as you see the high vis post superimpose on the target.

Is target focus and great trigger work the better mousetrap than front sight focus when shooting irons?

I've thought about that, but figured if it were fundamentally true, it would have become the generally accepted best practice long before I pondered it. haha

In any case, I think it has merit, as long as one has a very good and repeatable foundation (read: automaticity) of presentation, grip, and sight alignment. I surmise that may actually be the grease when it comes to ultra-high level shooters (like TGO), and there are likely an infinite number of variations depending on shot difficulty, urgency, and internal/external stressors.

[Gio]

Proper RDS shooting - is done by concentrating on the target vs the dot correct? That is what I generally understand to be the method.

I've notices shooting with target focus and blurry sights that a high vis front like the HD or a FO front - creates a RDS like effect as you see the high vis post superimpose on the target.

Is target focus and great trigger work the better mousetrap than front sight focus when shooting irons?

Target focus is much faster but not nearly as precise. The tighter the shots get the more you need a crisp front sight focus. I find I can generally target focus almost any paper targets in USPSA if I'm shooting major pf, but with minor PF at 25+ yards and 8" steel plates or mini poppers at 25+ I generally will use a crisp front sight focus.

[Gio]

[MENTION=410]Coincidentally, I've been exploring the variables required for making tough shots as well: 1) sights, 2) trigger, and 3) grip. I have found that if fatigue occurs, my accuracy declines. And if my trigger press is good, I do not need a full-power crush grip--especially with a heavy Shadow2 where free(er) recoil does not affect POI.



Fatigue is a huge factor. I find I can only shoot at my top level at distance for a few hundred rounds in a practice session before my hands and focus really starts to fatigue. Also, you are right about the gun weight. A polymer framed gun requires a lot more "muscling" in my experience.

[GJM]

Fatigue is a huge factor. I find I can only shoot at my top level at distance for a few hundred rounds in a practice session before my hands and focus really starts to fatigue. Also, you are right about the gun weight. A polymer framed gun requires a lot more "muscling" in my experience.

I also experience the onset of fatigue, and I think perhaps more so with the Glock. Probably due to some combination of the light weight of the Glock, the relatively long and heavy trigger relative to gun weight, and the specific nature of the Glock trigger. To shoot a Glock at my highest level, I have to be fearless and work the trigger aggressively while the sights are in motion. That is quite different than a heavynoistol with a short, light trigger.

[Clusterfrack]

GJM, thanks for starting this thread. Coincidentally, I've been exploring the variables required for making tough shots as well: 1) sights, 2) trigger, and 3) grip. I have found that if fatigue occurs, my accuracy declines. And if my trigger press is good, I do not need a full-power crush grip--especially with a heavy Shadow2 where free(er) recoil does not affect POI.

Today, I did not find that focusing on trigger more and sights less made for better groups at 25 yds. My groups were similar (5"), but the "less sights" group ended up shifted 3" right due (I think) to lighting conditions and less focus on rear alignment.

When I moved back to 55yds on a 10" plate, I started to see what you're describing, but the sight picture was very unambiguous--plate against dark soil with good lighting. So, no unicorns farting rainbows for me yet... but I'll keep playing with this.

One more thought: there are actually two sight variables: alignment and wobble. I think you're saying that trying to eliminate wobble isn't needed, and my conclusion is that alignment on small/distant targets cannot be taken for granted.

So, it turns out that that my sights were actually off by 3" to the right. It looks like either switching from SNS to Blue Bullets, or 10,000 rounds caused a POI shift in one of my Shadow2's.

Continuing to explore this...

[Clusterfrack]

Yes, I find the same thing too. Especially with a heavynoistol.


I also experience the onset of fatigue, and I think perhaps more so with the Glock. Probably due to some combination of the light weight of the Glock, the relatively long and heavy trigger relative to gun weight, and the specific nature of the Glock trigger. To shoot a Glock at my highest level, I have to be fearless and work the trigger aggressively while the sights are in motion. That is quite different than a heavynoistol with a short, light trigger.

[GJM]

Yes, I find the same thing too. Especially with a heavynoistol.

Hey, damn iPad spelling.

My G5/34 was shooting 1.5 inches right at 30 yards this afternoon with my AE 115 match load, and I went home got the MGW tool, tweaked the rear sight a touch left, and returned to the range to verify zero.

[Clusterfrack]

Hey, damn iPad spelling.

My G5/34 was shooting 1.5 inches right at 30 yards this afternoon with my AE 115 match load, and I went home got the MGW tool, tweaked the rear sight a touch left, and returned to the range to verify zero.

MGW Gunsmith Grade Tool FTW! Best $300 I've spent.

[lwt16]

MGW Gunsmith Grade Tool FTW! Best $300 I've spent.

Agreed......the money I have spent on MGW tools (Rangemaster and about ten different slide plates as well as a dedicated 30 degree Glock pusher with the 43/42 slide plates) has been well worth it. It's funny how when you get set up with the right tool for the job, more and more friends fall out of the sky needing sights pushed or exchanged. I also bought a off brand waterproof protective case with the foam stuff in it and now drag all that MGW hardware with me on each range trip.

I am about five months into my "reset button" as a shooter and I vowed to shoot five cases minimum in a year's time. Over that year, I have come to the conclusion that for me, shooting is 70 percent trigger manipulation and 30 percent sight alignment. At 48, the sights are blurry anyway and I was afraid my shooting was going to suffer.

So I went back to basics and started really diving into why I missed to the left....pretty much always. I never threw shots to the right (right hand shooter) so I dived into trigger press and focus.

So now, five months later and about 3k worth of ammo, I'm shooting tighter groups than ever before at 25 and 50. Bang my steel more at 100 than ever before.

And interestingly enough, I had to push most of my sights back towards center the more I corrected my trigger press.

I can't make my eyes younger......but I can continue to work on that trigger press......because in my mind, there's still much work to be done.

Regards.