Heizer PKO .45: Mind (Semi) Blown

[MattyD380]

Pun intended. Because it looks like it's their first actual semi auto pistol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08xDWhLn9E

The existence of this gun raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Like... how can a blowback .45 work? (without excessive slide mass--a la Hi Point). And if practical blowback guns in major calibers can be a thing, why are we living in a locked breech world? Obviously, putting the guide rod over the barrel lowers the bore axis significantly; they cite this as a reason as to why it can handle the recoil. But I would still expect the gun to be punishing to shoot. Maybe it is. Either way, it's still pretty interesting that it works as well as it appears to.

Admittedly, I struggle to reconcile its "pocket shotgun" lineage with the fact that it appears to be a legitimate semi-auto pistol. But hey... if it works, I could warm up to it. Maybe. Supposedly they're coming out with a 9 at some point, too.

[jeep45238]

Huh. I’ll pass myself - especially when the only thing the dude can keep commenting on is 8/10ths of a inch thick. Seems like he was out of talking points after that.


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[Tackleberry40sw]

It looks like a modernized FN Model 1900 designed by John Moses Browning.

[TGS]

I'm all about simple blowback guns making it to market.......if they're cheap.

The price on this thing is ridiculous.

[olstyn]

And if practical blowback guns in major calibers can be a thing, why are we living in a locked breech world?

Two considerations immediately come to my mind:

1. Locked breech guns are (probably) safer; they stay locked up until after chamber pressure has significantly dropped, reducing the likelihood of ugly things happening right on top of your hand.

2. Recoil spring strength. Even blowback .380s have heinously heavy recoil springs compared to equivalent locked breech guns. A blowback gun in .45 likely requires a VERY heavy spring.

I'm sure other folks can think of more, and probably more important reasons, but that's my contribution.

[MattyD380]

Beyond the issues of shooter comfort, felt recoil, etc...

It was my understanding that a blowback system simply couldn't handle more powerful rounds--i.e., the breech would open too quickly, the case would rupture, and you'd have
ugly things happening right on top of your hand. Hi-Points, for instance, overcome this by having higher-than-normal slide mass. But... the slide on this gun is quite svelte. And in one of those videos, someone mentions the fact that the slide is fairly easy to rack (I know, subjective). So it would appear that the spring isn't crazy heavy.

So, is there some X-factor that this gun has--in terms of engineering--that allows a blowback system to function in a compact .45?

[DpdG]

I was lost in the YouTube vortex a few days ago and came across a Forgotten Weapons video about a inter-war vintage BSA prototype for a striker fired, rotating barrel locked breach .45. The prototype used FN 1910 fire control elements and Styer-Hahn lock work. Seems like this would be a better mousetrap than trying to do straight blowback for similar design priorities.

Forgotten Weapons link: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/15152/

[DpdG]

Follow up to add- I would love to see a modern rendition of the BSA principle. In my dream world, it would use PX4 style lock work with a recoil spring concentric to the barrel. Fire control would be Glock-ish and have a native SCD. It would have a modular serialized FCU ala P320/APX and grip modules would allow changes in mag types- Glock, Sig, M&P, etc...

Dreams and all.....

[MattyD380]

I was lost in the YouTube vortex a few days ago and came across a Forgotten Weapons video about a inter-war vintage BSA prototype for a striker fired, rotating barrel locked breach .45. The prototype used FN 1910 fire control elements and Styer-Hahn lock work. Seems like this would be a better mousetrap than trying to do straight blowback for similar design priorities.

Forgotten Weapons link: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/15152/

That looks really cool. Definitely has the FN 1910 aesthetic. I watched it at work... no sound. But looks neat.

As far as "straight blowback" in this new Heizer beast...

My theory is that it may not be straight blowback--as in, there's some proprietary design feature (i.e., delayed blowback) that allows it to be functional and safe. I can't say for sure what that might be (mainly because I'm not an engineer)... but... if it were that easy to slap together a tiny, fixed-barrel semi-auto and throw a big ole' .45 slug in it... it seems like someone would have done it already.

[LtDave]

King Kong version of a S&W Model 61 Escort.

24254

[MattyD380]

This thing from Heizer is a hammer fired straight blowback gun and cocking the hammer does retard slide motion a bit. I would not be surprised if all the “so easy to rack” comments alluded to are coming from people pulling back the slide while the hammer is already cocked.

That's interesting. Maybe the hammer tension provides the "delay."

[farscott]

After seeing the P7 in .40 S&W (the rare P7M10), I am guessing the Heizer gun is gonna fail in the marketplace. HK used a gas-retarded blowback, and it worked well in 9x19. The slide got a bit larger to accommodate .40 S&W. The .45 ACP version never got marketed, but six P7M7 prototypes were made (depending on which source you believe). H&K abandoned the gas-retarded blowback for a liquid-filled buffer and decided the gun was still not going to be a success in the market. If H&K could not market a ,45 blowback action, I suspect Heizer did a bit less engineering than H&K.

http://hkp7.com/p7m7.htm

[Sigfan26]

From Personal Defense World:

THAT IS TERRIFYING!!!

[farscott]

So more thought, engineering, and testing went into the SCD than the latest Heizer pistol. I know whose products I am buying and whose I am not.

[farscott]

In fairness, the first sketch of the SCD concept was also done at a trade show (SHOT 2010).

Concept is one thing; stating that, "mechanical parameters of this gun might take a team of engineers with the latest computer programs and months of time to design, Charlie Heizer did it in just minutes with a ballpoint pen" is a whole other thing. That quote suggests the gun sprang wholly formed from his mind, like Athena from Zeus.

[RevolverRob]

Someone beat that thing with an ugly stick, something fierce.

[fly out]

To the extent that I thought about their prior efforts at all, I generally rolled my eyes, without doing any investigation.

This one caught my eye just enough to do a little more reading. Tom quoted a bit from a typically breathless, overblown gunporn article. There was more in that article that makes me give this guy a second look. At the risk of making this tl;dr, here is a bit more:


Born in 1933, Charlie Heizer grew up in Hungary near the Austrian border and witnessed the horrors of war firsthand with his village being occupied first by German and then Russian troops. After the war, discarded military equipment became a treasure trove for the young man, who used his father’s machine and blacksmith shop to modify the parts. Farm equipment, motorcycles and firearms were some of Heizer’s favorite projects to build. At one point he found an old shotgun whose barrel had been damaged by the bombing. Heizer rebuilt the shotgun, cut down the barrel and handloaded his own shells using pieces of lead pipe for shot, and he was able to put rabbit and quail on his family’s dinner table.

An interest in all things mechanical led Heizer to get a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering and a master’s degree in internal combustion engines from the Budapest Institute of Technology. Just months away from receiving his doctorate degree, Heizer escaped the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and landed in the United States with a toothbrush, a thermodynamics textbook and no working knowledge of the English language. Eventually he met and married another Hungarian refugee and started a family. Heizer established a small machine shop and landed a contract to make parts for Douglas Aircraft, and this led to other jobs with Boeing, Lockheed and Airbus as well as many of their suppliers. Fifty-five years after its inception, Heizer Aerospace now occupies over 300,000 square feet of manufacturing space.

But Heizer never abandoned his love of firearms and, using the excuse of diversifying, he established Heizer Defense to build guns. His extensive knowledge of steels, alloys and precision machining are as relevant to firearms as they are to aviation.

I spoke to his son, Tom, recently, and he explained that every metal used in the PKO-45 is aerospace-grade stainless steel. “We machine everything in-house and even bore the gun’s barrel and rifle here at our factory in Pevely, Missouri.”

I'm in favor of new thinking. I know, physics is physics, so I'm withholding judgment until I see more, but I'm not condemning this just yet. I wish him well, and hope this thing works. I don't know that I have a use for one, but I like new ideas and good craftsmanship, so I might be a buyer.

Titanium is apparently coming next, and saves a quarter pound.*

*(pre-cooked weight)

[fly out]

Yeah, that's weird. ;) But not every thought has been had, and I'm willing to wait and see if he stumbled onto something.

Maybe I'm just envious. As a kid, I took stuff apart and blew things up, but I didn't get to circle back to do it again with a few million dollars of milling equipment. I know we're supposed to mock this, and I did mock their prior efforts, but I'm curious...

[pangloss]

Concept is one thing; stating that, "mechanical parameters of this gun might take a team of engineers with the latest computer programs and months of time to design, Charlie Heizer did it in just minutes with a ballpoint pen" is a whole other thing. That quote suggests the gun sprang wholly formed from his mind, like Athena from Zeus.

But sometimes ideas do burst into existence like that. I've had one that I've worked through to completion, and it took about 18 months. Even once-in-a-lifetime ideas happen once in a lifetime. Regardless, I don't expect to rush out and buy this pistol.

[farscott]

To the extent that I thought about their prior efforts at all, I generally rolled my eyes, without doing any investigation.

This one caught my eye just enough to do a little more reading. Tom quoted a bit from a typically breathless, overblown gunporn article. There was more in that article that makes me give this guy a second look. At the risk of making this tl;dr, here is a bit more:



I'm in favor of new thinking. I know, physics is physics, so I'm withholding judgment until I see more, but I'm not condemning this just yet. I wish him well, and hope this thing works. I don't know that I have a use for one, but I like new ideas and good craftsmanship, so I might be a buyer.

Titanium is apparently coming next, and saves a quarter pound.*

*(pre-cooked weight)

When I read "aerospace-grade stainless steel" in reference to firearms, my BS meter gets pegged. Steel selection is always a balance of trade-offs, and I really do not believe that Heizer is any better at it than Ruger or S&W -- or Tom Jones. I know both Ruger (with Carpenter using 465 and Project 7000® 15Cr-5Ni, steels also developed for aerospace applications) and S&W have led the development and use of custom steels for firearms, and S&W championed the use of Scandium in aluminum alloys. 416 is a stainless steel used in aerospace applications that also happens to be used in firearms. In fact, most stainless guns have an "aerospace-grade stainless steel" component.

The SCD is machined from 17-4 PH, which is also used in aerospace applications ... and the Freedom Arms Model 83 revolver. How do we know? Because both companies said so instead of hiding behind a phrase designed to impress without providing any useful information.

[Johnny Bravo]

The AMT Backup .45 used the same principle. The recoil spring was a tiny little thing that looked more like a small striker spring, but the hammer spring was so powerful you ended up with a 20 lb. DA trigger.

Also 1911 smiths have been varying the angle on the bottom of the firing pin stop and using various hammer springs to control dwell time since the dark ages.

[MattyD380]

Concept is one thing; stating that, "mechanical parameters of this gun might take a team of engineers with the latest computer programs and months of time to design, Charlie Heizer did it in just minutes with a ballpoint pen" is a whole other thing. That quote suggests the gun sprang wholly formed from his mind, like Athena from Zeus.

I feel like we're talking about the "meta" idea here. Like, general proof of concept. Surely a lot of "real" engineering went into making it a reality. I think there have been tidbits about this gun floating around for the last year or so... so it seems like they've been fine-tuning it for a while. But I agree--that quote is misleading.

Speaking of the AMT Backup .45... it was locked breech.

http://www.nramuseum.com/media/363958/Apr%2095.pdf

So... I still think the PKO might be a case of "Charlie Heizer knows something we don't know" when it comes to making a blowback system work, in this form factor. And the idea of controlling the timing with the hammer spring is a solid theory. Or maybe it's range of factors, that work together to make it possible.