San Fransisco PD fire 65 rounds at suspect

[iWander]

And no one was hit. I'm truly amazed the word several cops with holes in the back of their heads or their legs. Pre-planning positions and responsibilities at least helps reduce the amount of chaos.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/san-francisco-cops-fire-65-shots-in-15-seconds-at-murder-suspect-in-dramatic-video.html

[AMC]

I was waiting for someone to post this. Obviously, since this is an open investigation, I'm limited in what I can say. Started in my district....suspect is a known menace, suspected in several prior shootings. I will say that the body cam footage has resulted in much roll call training at my station, on my shift. Elsewhere, I dunno. But every supervisor, and all our patrol officers (again, at my place) had the same reaction to viewing the videos. There are a lot of lessons to be learned....I just have doubts they will be.

ETA: for context, see my last post in the Florida School shooting, contemporary policing thread.

[blues]

Ouch. Glad none of the good guys were hurt.

I hope you are able to change some minds, AMC. It's got to be frustrating.

[iWander]

I'm going to play it tonight at briefing and talk about it. Did the same thing with the San Diego shooting where he shot the murder suspect in the head with a shotgun while the BG was holding a hostage. We talked about ammo selection, shot spread, movement of both bad guy and hostage, and balls as big of steel to take the shot.

[AMC]

Ouch. Glad none of the good guys were hurt.

I hope you are able to change some minds, AMC. It's got to be frustrating.

Only among the young cops I work with. Those running the big picture, and those running the training shops, don't like it when I point out, "...that is illegal. And that type/lack of training is going to lead to fear based use of force reactions, and over use of force." I'm such a downer man.:confused:

[iWander]

Only among the young cops I work with. Those running the big picture, and those running the training shops, don't like it when I point out, "...that is illegal. And that type/lack of training is going to lead to fear based use of force reactions, and over use of force." I'm such a downer man.:confused:Then be the lay leader in your organization that makes a difference. It's what I did for years before I was in a position to write policy and training. And I still enjoy being challenged by people who have a different perspective or know more than I do, as long as they actually want to directly affect change rather than just moan and complain.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd be curious the ratio of training dealing with shooting and fighting vs dealing with overdoses and the host of social worker issues.

I see the ratio shifting right where I work. The results are predictable.

[psalms144.1]

I make it a firm practice to never monday morning quarterback the guys under fire, but, those videos make me wonder just how much "Positive ID" of the threat there was during that exchange. What I heard sounded like suppressive fire, which is great for infantry tactics, but probably not so much for domestic LE...

[Lon]

....What I heard sounded like suppressive fire, which is great for infantry tactics, but probably not so much for domestic LE...

“Suppressive” fire has a use in domestic LE. A VERY LIMITED use, but still may be appropriate sometimes. And probably not in this situation from the video I saw.

[txdpd]

“Suppressive” fire has a use in domestic LE. A VERY LIMITED use, but still may be appropriate sometimes. And probably not in this situation from the video I saw.

It has it's legitimate LE applications. In the absence of quality training, ripping off a bunch of rounds, i.e. trained by cool stuff on TV and suppressive fire start to look like the same thing. In LE applications, accuracy trumps volume of fire and well placed rounds can go a long ways.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Only among the young cops I work with. Those running the big picture, and those running the training shops, don't like it when I point out, "...that is illegal. And that type/lack of training is going to lead to fear based use of force reactions, and over use of force." I'm such a downer man.:confused:

Was hoping you would weigh in on this one. Thank you for the comments and hopefully your shift understands the benefits of what you're trying to give them.

[AMC]

Was hoping you would weigh in on this one. Thank you for the comments and hopefully your shift understands the benefits of what you're trying to give them.

They do, I think. I'm fortunate that at my assignment we have a great group of like minded supervisors who are all pro training, pro professional standards, etc. We probably conduct more roll call training than any other station in the city, and our unit leadership supports it. That same page leadership is huge for accountability and standards, as well. There's no Sergeant shopping on the night shift, because the answer is always gonna be "Do the right thing, and do it thoroughly and correctly."
The new guys do listen, though, and most realize that it isn't always the same elsewhere. I like to think the supervision is the reason that our officers have done disproportionately well on the last two sergeants exams.

[PD Sgt.]

In LE applications, accuracy trumps volume of fire and well placed rounds can go a long ways.

The problem is poorly placed rounds also go a long ways.

[Trooper224]

When you hire social workers instead of enforcers this is the obvious result.

[secondstoryguy]

If every bullet has a lawyer attached that's a lot of lawyers LOL.

[txdpd]

The problem is poorly placed rounds also go a long ways.

and according the interweb experts not nearly as far as a round that has passed through a suspect.

Having been in the aftermath of a couple police "suppressive" fire events, I've been left scratching my head about WTF was getting shot at. In the aftermath we get pieces of paper that vaguely worded statements about only shooting at targets we can positively ID. We wonder why things keep happening.

Things like if officers are taking fire from a house, they are not getting shot at by the house, they are getting shot at by someone in the house. If the have to use suppressive fire, it would be a good idea to focus it where they are taking fire from (or likely to take fire from). They don't need to suppress the house, they need to suppress the shooter in the house.

If we would train suppressive fire, if it really needs to be used, it can be used more efficiently. It'll also help prevent it's use in places where it's not practical. In the absence of training, officer getting scared and shooting a ton of rounds all over the place, like they see on their TV training, will continue to be the norm.

[CraigS]

I am glad that none of those 65 misses hit an innocent.

[AMC]

I agree generally with Psalms that I don't like to MMQ the actual UOF decision until I know what the cops saw or perceived. That said, as a supervisor I have a great deal to critique in many of these incidents, such as lack of communication, lack of planning/role selection, and a self-created sense of exigency when there really isn't one. Not only talking about this incident. At roll call two days ago we talked about the critical need for officers to have the discernment and judgement to differentiate between "Go RIGHT NoW!" situations (like an active shooter), and "Slow the HELL down and contain" situations, such as a homicide suspect holed up in a "dwelling" of some sort...who may attempt to flee, fight, or take hostages. Especially if you have the elements of surprise and stealth on your side. I think Parkland, Fl. is shaping up to be an error of the opposite type....."Perimeter", when the answer should be "GO!"

[AMC]

I'd be curious the ratio of training dealing with shooting and fighting vs dealing with overdoses and the host of social worker issues.

I see the ratio shifting right where I work. The results are predictable.

I'm sure it's becoming like this everywhere...but for us the answer is basically 95% social worker to 5% cop training. And sadly, that's not an exaggeration. Multi day classes on CIT, Creating an Inclusive Environment, Implicit Bias, Procedural Justice, Community Engagement, etc. No firearms training at all, period. And DT for four hours every two years.

[BehindBlueI's]

When you hire social workers instead of enforcers this is the obvious result.

Then train for social work.
Then reward social work.
Then punish warrior ethos.

The pendulum is swinging again. Better you get killed then make the dept look bad on YouTube. Dead cops makes the public sympathetic. Cops that win make a lot of the admins wring their hands and/or clutch their pearls.

[txdpd]

Then train for social work.
Then reward social work.
Then punish warrior ethos.

The pendulum is swinging again. Better you get killed then make the dept look bad on YouTube. Dead cops makes the public sympathetic. Cops that win make a lot of the admins wring their hands and/or clutch their pearls.

Watching some of the follow up news coverage it seems like a lot of the citizenry is more upset about being overrun with homeless assholes, I mean indigent persons, than they are about the police shooting up an RV. A lot of people are getting a healthy dose of what they asked for, and they don't like it.

[TheNewbie]

I'm sure it's becoming like this everywhere...but for us the answer is basically 95% social worker to 5% cop training. And sadly, that's not an exaggeration. Multi day classes on CIT, Creating an Inclusive Environment, Implicit Bias, Procedural Justice, Community Engagement, etc. No firearms training at all, period. And DT for four hours every two years.

I watched a video from your department about inclusiveness. It was assigned to all of us and supposedly we get TCOLE credit for it.

Oh yeah, it was mind numbing.

[paherne]

This is a sympathetic fire problem and a lack of training issue. I work a few cities south and a world away from where this happened, but I do have relatives and good friends who work for SFPD. Trust me when I say that the firearms training these guys get borders on the criminal, and if the POS residents of SF had their way, they would close down the Lake Merced Range. The residents of SF get exactly what they deserve when it comes to policing.

I will note that I did not see any stripes present on the bodycam footage from this incident, but I could be mistaken. There was also no sergeant present at the Mario Woods shooting.

I might be mistaken, but I had heard that former Chief Sur reduced the amount of firearms training after a couple of recent shootings, including the Mario Woods incident.

I predict that SFPD will find that there is no training issue and blame the officers, just as LAPD concluded there was not training issue when 11 of their officers lit up the newspaper ladies during the Dorner incident.

[AMC]

This is a sympathetic fire problem and a lack of training issue. I work a few cities south and a world away from where this happened, but I do have relatives and good friends who work for SFPD. Trust me when I say that the firearms training these guys get borders on the criminal, and if the POS residents of SF had their way, they would close down the Lake Merced Range. The residents of SF get exactly what they deserve when it comes to policing.

I will note that I did not see any stripes present on the bodycam footage from this incident, but I could be mistaken. There was also no sergeant present at the Mario Woods shooting.

I might be mistaken, but I had heard that former Chief Sur reduced the amount of firearms training after a couple of recent shootings, including the Mario Woods incident.

I predict that SFPD will find that there is no training issue and blame the officers, just as LAPD concluded there was not training issue when 11 of their officers lit up the newspaper ladies during the Dorner incident.

The Lake Merced Range is currently shut down, due to safety concerns. They think it'll be at least July before it's open again, at the earliest.

As for the incident in question, you are correct in that there was no Sgt present on scene, though the Night Captain was arriving as the shooting occurred. It's an open question whether or not a supervisor could have prevented this...depends on the supervisor. We've got a lot of newly minted Sgts who have 3-4 years in, who have all been trained by the system in question. Many folks do not see the issues that folks here will. "It's all good! It worked out! No one got hurt, that's all that matters!" Folks truly don't know what they don't know.

As for how this is viewed? And the likelihood of positive change? I'm highly skeptical. Commendations are more likely than discipline, frankly. As paherne pointed out, this is largely a training failure...and when your entire command structure has been trained the same way....

[Coyotesfan97]

As for the incident in question, you are correct in that there was no Sgt present on scene, though the Night Captain was arriving as the shooting occurred. It's an open question whether or not a supervisor could have prevented this...depends on the supervisor. We've got a lot of newly minted Sgts who have 3-4 years in, who have all been trained by the system in question. Many folks do not see the issues that folks here will. "It's all good! It worked out! No one got hurt, that's all that matters!" Folks truly don't know what they don't know.


Yeah It’s all gooduntil it isn’t is one of my favorite sayings shamelessly stolen from a DTI guy who probably stole it himself. I swear that’s a universal flaw of LE. Unfortunately luck reinforces bad tactics.

[Trooper224]

"It's all good! It worked out! No one got hurt, that's all that matters!"

That's one of the issues within the mindset of modern LE supervision. Yes, most of the time it does work out in the end, but only because we get lucky. We don't need real firearms training because we always manage to get it done. Never mind that we could have done it much better. No one out of uniform got killed who shouldn't have and no lawsuites are forthcoming, so it's all good. I did specify out of uniform fatalities because it's okay if the rank and file buy the big adios. That just gives the talking heads a good excuse for a press conference.

[TGS]

That's one of the issues within the mindset of modern LE supervision. Yes, most of the time it does work out in the end, but only because we get lucky

"Fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics," (Darryl Bolke) is probably the best way I've ever heard the issue summarized.