Wadcutters vs. Hollowpoints for snubnose carry

[Ed L]

I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find where.

From some of what I am reading it doesn't seem that hollowpoints, even +P hollowpoints expand out of a snubnose barrel. Wadcutters, on the other hand, maintain their full diameter and can actually create a wider wound channel than a non-expanding hollowpoint.

So it seems with a when you fire a +P hollowpoint in a snubnose, the result for most people is slower follow up shots due to greater recoil and muzzle jump.

The only advantage I can see to a JHP load is if it was a bonded bullet and for whatever reason you had to shoot through something that needed a bonded bullet.

My pocket carry J-frame is a standard model 640, so I am not dealing with a lightweight gun that will be painful to shoot with a +P load. Up until now, my carry load had been the Speer 135 grain +P hollowpoint. But in considering it now it seems a wadcutter might be a better choice for reasons already discussed. For a lighter weight gun, I would not try to carry a +P.

Here are some links that seem to evaluate it intelligently and provide velocity and penetration info.

I would be very interested in hearing other people's (Chuck Haggard, Tamara, DocGkr) thoughts on this.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

[Bucky]

Why not both? I use the old “FBI load”, a LSWCHP - lead semi wadcutter hollow point.

[TGS]

...snip...

DocGKR has a post somewhat addressing your OP: BUG's: .380 ACP vs .38 Special (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp)

Synopsis:

There are precious few 38 Special loads that will perform to IWBA/FBI standards out of a snub, but they are there.

Carrying wadcutters is an accepted alternative, but as you mentioned will not perform well with intermediate barriers, in particular metal and glass.

If the recoil on a given +p JHP is more than you'd prefer (excessively long split times, whatever), one strategy is to carry a cylinder full of wadcutters and a reload of something with round noses.....reloading round nose bullets from a speed-loader is demonstrably easier than trying to do the same with wadcutters.

[Irelander]

I'm fully on the wadcutter bandwagon for snub use. The Remington Target load is very accurate in my 642, light recoil with great penetration.

[camsdaddy]

Why not both? I use the old “FBI load”, a LSWCHP - lead semi wadcutter hollow point.
I think the additional recoil of the FBI load is the deterrent to many in an air weight. If the hollow point isnt going to open I think I have read that the low recoil and cutting edge of the full wadcutter is preferred. I had thought that a standard pressure 158 LSWC would split the difference and give POI @ POA. I found that the difference of impact isnt enough to matter. I have gotten where full wadcutters are all I really load and carry either full or semi wadcutters as a reload.

[psalms144.1]

I think the additional recoil of the FBI load is the deterrent to many in an air weight. If the hollow point isnt going to open I think I have read that the low recoil and cutting edge of the full wadcutter is preferred. I had thought that a standard pressure 158 LSWC would split the difference and give POI @ POA. I found that the difference of impact isnt enough to matter. I have gotten where full wadcutters are all I really load and carry either full or semi wadcutters as a reload.+1. I'm required to shoot issued ammunition in my authorized pistol, and my agency's continued issuance of ONLY 158gr LHP+P loads has led me to selling my 642 because I just can't stand the pain of shooting it anymore for qualifications. If/when I'm retired and I'm back to using a airweight pocket gun on a regular basis, I'll feed it FWC only and be happy.

[LOBO]

"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

The above was found here,

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp&highlight=ra38b

[camsdaddy]

+1. I'm required to shoot issued ammunition in my authorized pistol, and my agency's continued issuance of ONLY 158gr LHP+P loads has led me to selling my 642 because I just can't stand the pain of shooting it anymore for qualifications. If/when I'm retired and I'm back to using a airweight pocket gun on a regular basis, I'll feed it FWC only and be happy.
I shoot full wadcutters in my model 60 and I have never wished for more recoil.

[Jim Watson]

Midrange wadcutters are low in recoil and seem to have taken the place of the unfortunately near-extinct .32 revolver.
There used to be a service wadcutter, listed at 860 fps in 6". Might be 780 in a Chief.
Nobody makes that now that I know of. The Buffalo Bore wadcutter is 869 fps in a 2", which isn't going to kick any less than any other duty load in a snub.
You could get there yourself with a bevel base wadcutter and 4.5 gr of Unique.

[feudist]

Midrange wadcutters are low in recoil and seem to have taken the place of the unfortunately near-extinct .32 revolver.
There used to be a service wadcutter, listed at 860 fps in 6". Might be 780 in a Chief.
Nobody makes that now that I know of. The Buffalo Bore wadcutter is 869 fps in a 2", which isn't going to kick any less than any other duty load in a snub.
You could get there yourself with a bevel base wadcutter and 4.5 gr of Unique.

I've been toying with the idea of a .32 S&W...extra shot, .380ish ballistics and Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast wadcutter that is a little hotter.

[Ed L]

"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

The above was found here,

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp&highlight=ra38b

I read that. But I am wondering about the performance or non performance of those loads in 4 layer denim. If they don't expand, a wadcutter would actually make a wider wound cavity. Plus, there is the issue of the lesser recoil of a wadcutter allowing more rapid follow-up shots.

The recoil and controlability issue is more of a concern to someone who carries a lighter weight J frame than my full weight 640. If that were the case, I would definitely go with the wadcutters.

[LOBO]

The way that I read/understand the thread is that they were fired through 4LD covered gel.

[DocGKR]

We typically test bare gel, 4 layer denim, and auto windshields and make recommendations based on the aggregate results of those tests.

[Navin Johnson]

We typically test bare gel, 4 layer denim, and auto windshields and make recommendations based on the aggregate results of those tests.

Have you tested standard wadcutters through auto glass?

[DocGKR]

Of course.....about 2 decades ago. It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass.

[TGS]

Buffalo Bore makes a hard-cast, standard pressure, flash suppressed 38 Special wadcutter specifically for short barrels.

That's probably a safe bet for performance through auto glass, pending any tests from the good doctor.

[Holmes375]

Buffalo Bore makes a hard-cast, standard pressure, flash suppressed 38 Special wadcutter specifically for short barrels.

That's probably a safe bet for performance through auto glass, pending any tests from the good doctor.

I'm sure they would. I've used both the Buffalo Bore and Underwood WCs. Good stuff but they surely must be at the very top of the "standard" pressure chart. Certainly not a traditional standard 38 spl load in terms of recoil. I haven't had the opportunity to chrono them yet from a 2" but both companies claim 850 fps. After running them through a 642 I have no reason to dispute their numbers ;)

[Sigfan26]

I'm sure they would. I've used both the Buffalo Bore and Underwood WCs. Good stuff but they surely must be at the very top of the "standard" pressure chart. Certainly not a traditional standard 38 spl load in terms of recoil. I haven't had the opportunity to chrono them yet from a 2" but both companies claim 850 fps. After running them through a 642 I have no reason to dispute their numbers ;)

They definitely don’t feel standard pressure, from what I recall!


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[DocGKR]

Too fast, too much recoil, no fun to shoot and practice with; life is filled with trade-offs and compromises...

[RevolverRob]

I waffle on this a lot. The idea of a J-Frame is, you can have it with you at all times. The problem is, it's a bear to shoot well, with reliably expanding .38 Special ammunition.

Really, the round I've always wanted to work at 750-800 fps is the 148-grain hollow based wadcutter loaded backwards (aka the "buttercup") (http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2016/01/atomic-ammo-38-special-p-148-grain.html). The simple fact of the matter is, expansion tends to be good, but penetration tends to be very poor (<9-12"). Making it a sub-par choice for anything, but carrying around in the deepest of winter (when multiple layers have a chance to increase penetration).

It appears that Federal has gotten close with the "Micro HST" in .38. 130-grain bullet, averaging about 760-FPS, penetration is on the lower end (~12"), but expansion is as good as any HST. Has anyone shot this load extensively enough?

[Moonshot]

Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass.

I had no idea WCs penetrated auto glass. I was once told by someone in a position to know that he'd seen WCs bounce off of leather jackets. His opinion is one I trust, but I took that comment with a heavy dose of salt.

[Lester Polfus]

I had no idea WCs penetrated auto glass. I was once told by someone in a position to know that he'd seen WCs bounce off of leather jackets. His opinion is one I trust, but I took that comment with a heavy dose of salt.

He probably knows of a case where a .38 wadcutter, for real, bounced off a leather jacket, but that's likely the exception, rather than the rule at normal self defense ranges.

I've switched to wadcutters in my J-frame. I've arrived at the conclusion that the enhanced shootability outweighs the lack of intermediate barrier performance.

[Im51504ID]

I had no idea WCs penetrated auto glass. I was once told by someone in a position to know that he'd seen WCs bounce off of leather jackets. His opinion is one I trust, but I took that comment with a heavy dose of salt.

Yeah, having shot a lot of wadcutters through different things, that would be a tough one.

Perhaps it was at 500 yards?

[willie]

From having shot mostly cast bullets in .38 spl, I can say this with certainty: if any lead bullet bounced off a leather jacket at usual handgun distances, then the powder was defective or the charge weight was incorrect or the primer was defective. I've experienced bullets sticking in the barrel from such, and had one of these not been stuck, then it would have bounced off a person.

Wadcutters as magic bullets is a topic that's been "bounced around" for many decades. Putting words in Doc's mouth, I think his point is that from a 2 inch barrel they are adequate when compared to some other available projectiles fired at low/medium velocity. I now carry them because of his endorsement. Previously I used red line hand loads with my own soft 160 gr hp bullet. I admit that the idea was not a good one.

[Tokarev]

I've been toying with the idea of a .32 S&W...extra shot, .380ish ballistics and Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast wadcutter that is a little hotter.What about the 327 Federal Magnum?

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[Holmes375]

What about the 327 Federal Magnum?

I've surely been thinking about an LCR 327. That sixth round is attractive and terminal ballistics appear acceptable. I've been hesitant to introduce yet another caliber to a collection I've actually been trying to streamline. That said, its not something I would be pouring rounds down in large volume, just shooting it enough to be proficient in the event of need.

I don't have much experience with it in hand but I've shot my friend's LCR 327 enough to know its controllable. Rather loud little booger though ;)

[Tokarev]

I've surely been thinking about an LCR 327. That sixth round is attractive and terminal ballistics appear acceptable. I've been hesitant to introduce yet another caliber to a collection I've actually been trying to streamline. That said, its not something I would be pouring rounds down in large volume, just shooting it enough to be proficient in the event of need.

I don't have much experience with it in hand but I've shot my friend's LCR 327 enough to know its controllable. Rather loud little booger though ;)I don't own a 327 nor have I shot one but I can't imagine it'd be too bad in the recoil department.

On paper, the little cartridge looks like it would be a good choice for a snubbie. The limiting factor is going to be choice of ammo and revolver.

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[searcher]

I don't own a 327 nor have I shot one but I can't imagine it'd be too bad in the recoil department.

On paper, the little cartridge looks like it would be a good choice for a snubbie. The limiting factor is going to be choice of ammo and revolver.

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It can be a hot round. It uses a small rifle primer. The Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) allowed for the .327 by SAAMI is 45,000 psi. By contrast, MAP of the .357 Magnum is 35,000 psi and 36,000 psi for the .44 Magnum.

I shot some 100 grain budget soft points from my Taurus steel snubby with rubber grips and it hurt more than shooting .38 +P gold dot 135 grainers out of an airweight S&W J frame with rubber boot grips.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ditto on that. I found that various 327s had more of a kick than I expected in my 3 inch 632

[Tokarev]

Defensive loads for 327 are more limited than I thought.

I see a load or two from Federal (I'd hope so since it carries their name) and a Speer Gold Dot. Otherwise, there is one Double Tap load with what appears to be a discontinued Barnes .312 TAC XP.

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[Glenn E. Meyer]

There's a Buffalo Bore 100 gr. JHP - https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=284. It has a touch of a kick. There's some hard cast from Buffalo Bore and JSP ammo around also.

[Totem Polar]

You guys know that the Federal 100 gr JSP load was tested by ballistics by the inch, and it went over 1600 FPS out of 4" and 1400 out of 3"... that's pretty fierce ballistics. Even the JSP will expand in gel at that velocity.

Amateur testing shows that the 2 Fed JSPs and the 115 GDHP will all expand and penetrate within FBI specs from short wheelie barrels; as noted above, there is some serious pressure in those loads. Loud.

I'd be curious what Doc GKR's educated take is on the .327 Federal.

[Tokarev]

Here's some terminal info from Brass Fetcher:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/327%20Federal/327%20Federal.html

[xcop]

I know sticking with the Big 3 is best but there is a hard cast 38 wadcutter at a claimed 740 from a 2in loaded by DoubleTap. I received 60 rounds but have not fired any yet. The bullet is seated flush unlike Buffalo Bore or Underwood.
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_139&product_id=629

[Drang]

I'd be curious what DocGKR's educated take is on the .327 Federal.

Me, too.

ETA: Hmm, the "tag" function does not seem to work in a quote, so... DocGKR

Well, that's weird, now it does. :confused:

[willie]

For conversational purposes, I'll point out that Jeff Cooper recommended a .38 spl load giving 1000 fps with a 160 gr cast bullet from a 2 inch barrel J frame. I'll refrain from sharing the data but will say that pressures were .357 mag level. It was for steel frames only. I drank Cooper's Kool Aid but drew the line here. My own load J frame road was hot but nothing like this one.

But back to wadcutters. The flat broad edge or shoulder of the wadcutter bullet supposedly is the key to causing tissue damage. But semi wadcutter bullets also have this shoulder, and I don't understand why the wadcutter works better than a semi wadcutter having a distinct shoulder. I'm not refuting Doc's claim but stating that I don't understand it.

[Sal Picante]

Just carry hollow dickwads. Oh wait... wrong thread...

[Wayne Dobbs]

For conversational purposes, I'll point out that Jeff Cooper recommended a .38 spl load giving 1000 fps with a 160 gr cast bullet from a 2 inch barrel J frame. I'll refrain from sharing the data but will say that pressures were .357 mag level. It was for steel frames only. I drank Cooper's Kool Aid but drew the line here. My own load J frame road was hot but nothing like this one.

But back to wadcutters. The flat broad edge or shoulder of the wadcutter bullet supposedly is the key to causing tissue damage. But semi wadcutter bullets also have this shoulder, and I don't understand why the wadcutter works better than a semi wadcutter having a distinct shoulder. I'm not refuting Doc's claim but stating that I don't understand it.

The shoulder on an SWC doesn't touch tissue during the bullet's transit through. This is because the temporary cavity (usually small, but still larger in diameter than the bullet) forms at the flat nose of the SWC and therefore, the shoulder is inside that cavity and not touching tissue. It cuts a nice hole in a paper target though.

[nalesq]

The shoulder on an SWC doesn't touch tissue during the bullet's transit through. This is because the temporary cavity (usually small, but still larger in diameter than the bullet) forms at the flat nose of the SWC and therefore, the shoulder is inside that cavity and not touching tissue. It cuts a nice hole in a paper target though.

Seems then that the only reason to use a SWC over a WC is that the SWC is easier to load into the cylinder.


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[Wayne Dobbs]

Seems then that the only reason to use a SWC over a WC is that the SWC is easier to load into the cylinder.


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Much better long range stability than a WC is a main reason to prefer them.

[revchuck38]

Much better long range stability than a WC is a main reason to prefer them.

I can vouch for the fact that HBWCs leave somewhat less than perfectly round holes at 50 yards; when I shot bullseye I used my M14 for Centerfire and saw that myself. Not sure how much relevance that has in the context of self-defense use in a snubby, though. ;)

[willie]

revchuck, in your example, the bullet may have been beginning to lose stability, and you were seeing first signs of key holing.

Wayne, you gave a logical explanation about why a wadcutter bullet trumps a semi wc when discussing tissue disruption.

[Tokarev]

Defensive loads for 327 are more limited...there is one Double Tap load with what appears to be a discontinued Barnes .312 TAC XP.

A quick email to Barnes indicates that the .312 TAC XP is sold as OEM only and is not available as a reloading component.

[Tawadc95]

Dr. Roberts recommendation for a snub .38 is wadcutters, penetrates and cuts tissue.

I use the Buffalo Bore wadcutters in my LCR.

[camsdaddy]

Dr. Roberts recommendation for a snub .38 is wadcutters, penetrates and cuts tissue.

I use the Buffalo Bore wadcutters in my LCR.
I know that BB rounds are normally a little warm. How do the BB wadcutters compare to other 38 rounds you have fired?

[Tawadc95]

The BB’s surprised me on the first round because I was expecting a wadcutter loaf like my home brewed which they are definetly not.

With that being said I don’t find them any worse than any other factory self defense load and really wouldn’t want it any other way.

[Tokarev]

These might be an option for those wanting a full wadcutter:

https://underwoodammo.com/product/handgun-ammo/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter/

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[Totem Polar]

Dr. Roberts recommendation for a snub .38 is wadcutters, penetrates and cuts tissue.

I use the Buffalo Bore wadcutters in my LCR.


Too fast, too much recoil, no fun to shoot and practice with; life is filled with trade-offs and compromises...

[Tawadc95]

My compromise in having a snubby around is it’s my wife’s favorite gun to shoot and carry.

Try as I may I can’t convince her otherwise.

I use a 125 gun round nose with 2.7gn of bullseye for shooting the LCR myself as it is very good for trigger discipline and patience.

[Tawadc95]

WOW,

I did not realize until reading his avatar just now that Doc GKR is the real Doc, how cool is that! I read , reread and review often everything I can get my hands on of his cuz it’s so dang factual.

I have 30 years of dental lab experience and would love to see a tooth you prepared for a crown!!

[RichY]

These might be an option for those wanting a full wadcutter:

https://underwoodammo.com/product/handgun-ammo/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter/

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They have rounded shoulders, and that may not be the best wadcutter for cutting. I found the same issue with the BB load too, plus the BB load gives off smoke like you're shooting black powder. I use either of the two wadcutter loads Doctor Roberts recommends. The Winchester is impossible to find right now, but I have found several places with the Federal load.

I'd like to see Underwood/Lehigh make a solid copper sharp shouldered wadcutter bullet loaded mild like the Federal and Winchester loads. That would be about the perfect load for a J frame.

[camsdaddy]

They have rounded shoulders, and that may not be the best wadcutter for cutting. I found the same issue with the BB load too, plus the BB load gives off smoke like you're shooting black powder. I use either of the two wadcutter loads Doctor Roberts recommends. The Winchester is impossible to find right now, but I have found several places with the Federal load.

I'd like to see Underwood/Lehigh make a solid copper sharp shouldered wadcutter bullet loaded mild like the Federal and Winchester loads. That would be about the perfect load for a J frame.

I've have not thought about the difference in the cutting edge between the HBWC and the DEWC. Most of the DEWC have rounded edges while the HBWC are sharper. I guess to get the full wadcutter effect the sharper edges are needed.

[RichY]

I've have not thought about the difference in the cutting edge between the HBWC and the DEWC. Most of the DEWC have rounded edges while the HBWC are sharper. I guess to get the full wadcutter effect the sharper edges are needed.

As noted in Dr. Robert's article on 380 vs. 38 Spl.,

"When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)
"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes." "

In the same article Dr. Fackler also mentions the following,

"In the mid-1980's while experimenting in the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research, I did some work comparing various bullet shapes by turning these bullets on a metal lathe out of a solid brass rod. I made a few full wadcutter bullets from brass for the 45 Long Colt revolver. They were very simple to make: just truncated cylinders with two circumferential grooves cut a few thousandth-of-an-inch deep on the sides, leaving three full caliber driving bands to cut down a bit on the friction between bullet and bore. What I say about wadcutters for the rest of this note will assume bullets with the essential characteristics of those bullets - A SHARP RIGHT-ANGLE EDGE AROUND THE FORWARD CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE BULLET, AND A BULLET MADE FROM HARD ENOUGH MATERIAL SO THAT STRIKING LIVING SOFT TISSUE AT THE VELOCITIES IN THE 900-1200 FT/SEC RANGE WILL NOT CAUSE A ROUNDING OFF OF THIS SHARP LEADING EDGE. If made from lead, such a bullet should be made from the hardest alloy possible." Fickler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6, Fall, 1999

(Note: caps made by me, since I cannot get italicizing to work here, but the sentence that is all caps was italicized in the original article by Dr. Fackler was italicized.)

[5pins]

I seem to remember someone making a FMJ wadcutter in the past.

Lehigh makes one of their Extreme Penetrator bullets in .38 that may do well. I’m not sure if I believe the claims that Lehigh makes with this bullet but if one was looking for a “wadcutterish” bullet that was harder than lead this may work.

Both Lehigh and Underwood load it in .38 Spl but they are a little on the hot side. If downloaded to a standard 148 WC velocity it should have the benefit of soft recoil and deep penetration.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/357cal-38cal-140gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168559648
(https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/357cal-38cal-140gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168559648)
Another alternative is this one from Cutting Edge bullets. I’m not sure how well it would work. It’s 165gr but it has a large meplat but no one loads it in .38 (probably a reason for that).

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/357-165gr-handgun-solid

[Tokarev]

What about something like this?

Not a full wadcutter but it still has a nice flat meplat but will probably speed load or speed strip load better than a wadcutter.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/357-lbt-150gr-fnb-gc/

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[RichY]

I seem to remember someone making a FMJ wadcutter in the past.

Lehigh makes one of their Extreme Penetrator bullets in .38 that may do well. I’m not sure if I believe the claims that Lehigh makes with this bullet but if one was looking for a “wadcutterish” bullet that was harder than lead this may work.

Both Lehigh and Underwood load it in .38 Spl but they are a little on the hot side. If downloaded to a standard 148 WC velocity it should have the benefit of soft recoil and deep penetration.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/357cal-38cal-140gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168559648
(https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/357cal-38cal-140gr-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168559648)
Another alternative is this one from Cutting Edge bullets. I’m not sure how well it would work. It’s 165gr but it has a large meplat but no one loads it in .38 (probably a reason for that).

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/357-165gr-handgun-solid

I agree about not accepting the claims Lehigh makes, but I suggest they just make a copper or copper allow full wadcutter the same as Dr. Fackler noted above - with SHARP shoulders, and leave it at that. It would not need to be loaded hot, but it would give the J frame a terrific self defense load. Nothing magical, just something that works every time the same way.

The Cutting Edge Bullet shown is not full caliber. What we need is precisely what Dr. Fackler recommended nearly two decades ago! We certainly have manufacturers today capable of producing such a projectile.

[Totem Polar]

I did not realize until reading his avatar just now that Doc GKR is the real Doc, how cool is that! I read , reread and review often everything I can get my hands on of his cuz it’s so dang factual.

:D

We have some incredibly accomplished people from the firearms community participating here, and he’s one of them. Doc’s participation and update posts here over the years has definitely made my own ammo selections quick and easy.

[RichY]

What about something like this?

Not a full wadcutter but it still has a nice flat meplat but will probably speed load or speed strip load better than a wadcutter.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/357-lbt-150gr-fnb-gc/

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Again, not a full wadcutter. Note Wayne's comments and those of Dr. Fackler. I cannot see why Lehigh could not just produce such a bullet and Underwood then produce produce the loaded round in their nickel plated cases. The rounds would fare better with that case over a brass case for that large segment of the population that load the revolver and leave it in a drawer or under the mattress for decades. It would seem to me that a round like this, loaded mild like the current wadcutters (lighter weight projectile such as solid copper could be pushed faster without raising pressures), giving us the mild round we currently get with the Winchester and Federal wadcutter loads.

[jws]

Matt's Bullets (http://www.mattsbullets.com) has a few .38/.357 wadcutters available as well as a decent selection of other bullets. I have bought from him a couple times and will buy from him again in the future. His customer service is great and his prices seem reasonable to me.

[Tokarev]

I cannot see why Lehigh could not just produce such a bullet...

Send Lehigh an email.

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[RichY]

Send Lehigh an email.

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You honestly think they'd listen to me? I'm nobody. We need someone like Dr. Roberts, Wayne Dobbs, etc., to contact them. I spent a majority of my career in manufacturing. Little guys didn't get heard (unfortunately).

[5pins]

I sent Cutting Edge an email. I think it would be easy for them to modify the program that makes the 165gr bullet to cut it back and flatten it. If my lathe was set up I would give it a try myself.

[camsdaddy]

I think the plating or coating would reduce the cutting edge.

[Tokarev]

Here's a bit of 148gr wadcutter info.

Clear Ballistics gel used.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38spl-winchester-super-match-148gr-wc-50#geltest

[fatdog]

I bought a box of the current Federal 148gr HBWC from Target Sports and had a chance to chrono them today in my S&W 642-1. I was sorely disappointed at the velocities. POI was 3" to the right for me at 10 yards.

the chrono results are for 15 rounds fired:

Altitude (FT): 800
Temp: 64 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG

Average: 638.07
StdDev: 12.64
Min: 618
Max: 662
Spread: 44

Pleasant to shoot but this stuff is not making its way into my J frames for any serious social use. I have cowboy loads hotter than this stuff.

[RichY]

I bought a box of the current Federal 148gr HBWC from Target Sports and had a chance to chrono them today in my S&W 642-1. I was sorely disappointed at the velocities. POI was 3" to the right for me at 10 yards.

the chrono results are for 15 rounds fired:

Altitude (FT): 800
Temp: 64 °F
BP: 30.07 inHG

Average: 638.07
StdDev: 12.64
Min: 618
Max: 662
Spread: 44

Pleasant to shoot but this stuff is not making its way into my J frames for any serious social use. I have cowboy loads hotter than this stuff.
.
Those wadcutters are terrific defense loads and that is typical velocity for a 1 7/8" barrel. They will still penetrate deeply -- maybe even over penetrate, they will drive straight, go through bones, work the same every time, and cut tissue well. They are also easy on the host piece. When Dr. Roberts talks about carrying wadcutters, this is one of the loads he recommends.

I carry the same load in my 442 and I got an average of 637 fps out of it here last week. 5k elevation, about 70 degrees F. Don't let the velocity fool you. They work.

I would recommend reading the entire article in the IWBA Wound Ballistics Journal, Fall 1999, noted above to get all the relevant information. Another thread here shows how to access that information.

[Totem Polar]

Have we duscussed these double taps yet? Hotter than the big name offerings, but not as hot as buffalo bore. Sort of splits the difference:

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=555

[fatdog]

.
I would recommend reading the entire article in the IWBA Wound Ballistics Journal, Fall 1999, noted above to get all the relevant information.

the interesting quote there is

" the .38 Speical 148 grain wadcutter shows the muzzle velocity of 710ft/s dropping to 634 ft/s 50 yards down range; the resulting tissue penetration drops from about 20 inches to about 181/2 inches"

So I see the point on velocity not mattering so much in that range. I still won't adopt these because of the POI/POA discrepency in my 642. I am only getting 1/2" deviation or less with the 110gr barnes bullets laded by BB.

[Tokarev]

So I see the point on velocity not mattering so much in that range. I still won't adopt these because of the POI/POA discrepency in my 642. I am only getting 1/2" deviation or less with the 110gr barnes bullets laded by BB.


Which load are you using? Standard pressure or +P?


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[Crusader8207]

If anyone is looking for the Winchester 148, I found some in stock at Cheaper than Dirt. I have 100 rounds inbound.


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[RichY]

If anyone is looking for the Winchester 148, I found some in stock at Cheaper than Dirt. I have 100 rounds inbound.


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Who made them?

[CWM11B]

He said they were Winchester

[Crusader8207]

Here is a link


https://www.cheaperthandirt.net/product/winchester-38-special-ammunition-50-rounds-super-x-lwc-148-grains-020892201361.do



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[RichY]

He said they were Winchester

Duh, read this right after we got home from church late. There's the answer big as day! Winchester!

[RichY]

Here is a link


https://www.cheaperthandirt.net/product/winchester-38-special-ammunition-50-rounds-super-x-lwc-148-grains-020892201361.do

Thanks!


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[Bobcat]

I bought these. Haven't had a chance to fire them yet...
https://choiceammunition.com/product/38-special-148-grain-plated-wadcutter-100-hand-loaded-3/

[camsdaddy]

I bought these. Haven't had a chance to fire them yet...
https://choiceammunition.com/product/38-special-148-grain-plated-wadcutter-100-hand-loaded-3/
I recognized the photo and then realized they are using a picture from Luckygunner.com. At least they didnt remove the stamp. I then realized if I know where the photo came from before looking at the stamp I may spend to much time on the internet.

[Bobcat]

$81.19 for 350 plus shipping

[willie]

These appear not to have a distinct shoulder, or said another way, they might be too smooth to cause tissue damage to the degree required. My comments are based on what I observed from their image. I may be wrong.

[Bobcat]

These appear not to have a distinct shoulder, or said another way, they might be too smooth to cause tissue damage to the degree required. My comments are based on what I observed from their image. I may be wrong.

Well, they do seem to cut round holes in paper. Will advise once the weather warms up a little.

[richiecotite]

For those that roll their own, Rim Rock makes a cast 155 gr wadcutter with a sharp edge and flat nose. These should be good up to 1000 FPS, and no worries about the skirt getting stuck in the barrel either.

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-38-dewc-155-gr-per-500.html


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[GAP]

Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters... my choice and in stock for a decent price if anyone needs some. I’d love to see these run through some real testing again.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-gold-medal-38-special-ammo-148-grain-match-wadcutter-gm38a-p-1187.aspx

[APS-PF]

Thanks for that, I've been looking for more. Those run $35/box at the local gun store.

[Frank R]

Another choice.
http://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter/

[Tokarev]

Have those of you who choose to carry a small revolver looked at the 9mm LCR?

Depending on the load it looks like 9mm might still maintain some good velocities.


http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCR9mm.htm

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[SiriusBlunder]

Have those of you who choose to carry a small revolver looked at the 9mm LCR?

I did and shot a friend's. However, after reading about crimp-jump in 9mm snubbies, decided to go with an LCR-357 w/38's.

[Tokarev]

I did and shot a friend's. However, after reading about crimp-jump in 9mm snubbies, decided to go with an LCR-357 w/38's.We don't know how many rounds Quinn shot through his test gun but he said he had no issues with the bullets jumping forward in the LCR.



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[fatdog]

Which load are you using? Standard pressure or +P?
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The +P version, last chrono:

Barnes 110gr +P by Buffalo Bore
J frame 1 7/8" bbl
1210.4 Average
21.4 Standard Deviation
57 Extreme Spread
POI= 1 1/2 “ low on elevation and windage correct at 8 yards, windage about 1/2" right at 10 yards

FWIW, same range session I tested the Lehigh 100gr supposedly non P+ as loaded by Underwood

Underwood Ammunition 38 Special 100 Grain Lehigh Xtreme Defender

S&W J frame 640 (no dash) 1 7/8” barrel
1196.6 fps Average
27.6 Standard Deviation
80 Extreme Spread
POI =1 3/8” low and 3/4” left at 8 yards

[SiriusBlunder]

We don't know how many rounds Quinn shot through his test gun but he said he had no issues with the bullets jumping forward in the LCR.


JodyH reported different results:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15414-LCR-9mm

He reported no stoppages, though.

I found other reports of jump in an LCR and some stoppages with range ammo.

I didn't want to worry about it or test a lot of different ammo.

[rathos]

For the 9mm LCR, my buddy has one and we fired roughly 1k though it in a weekend with UMC, fiocchi, Speer gold dot and lawman, Federal Hydrashock "tactical", federal american eagle and some reloads we did. We didn't test for bullet jump, but the gun functioned perfectly with all of the ammo though the POA/POI was off for all rounds. If you are worried about bullet jump I would stay away from 115 grain ammo.

As for wadcutters I just ordered some of the choice stuff(https://choiceammunition.com/product...hand-loaded-3/). Will be putting some rounds through a few k frames and my snubbies as soon as it is delivered and will report back.

[Bobcat]

For the 9mm LCR, my buddy has one and we fired roughly 1k though it in a weekend with UMC, fiocchi, Speer gold dot and lawman, Federal Hydrashock "tactical", federal american eagle and some reloads we did. We didn't test for bullet jump, but the gun functioned perfectly with all of the ammo though the POA/POI was off for all rounds. If you are worried about bullet jump I would stay away from 115 grain ammo.

As for wadcutters I just ordered some of the choice stuff(https://choiceammunition.com/product...hand-loaded-3/). Will be putting some rounds through a few k frames and my snubbies as soon as it is delivered and will report back.

I'm curious what yours will look like.

I do not have that shoulder sticking up out of the top.

[rathos]

I will take a picture as soon as they are delivered. I think they will be here Friday. However I will be at a class most of the weekend so I probably won't get to shoot any (they aren't big on shooting after class is over...)


I'm curious what yours will look like.

I do not have that shoulder sticking up out of the top.

[camsdaddy]

Most LSWC do not have the shoulder. Most DEWC do. I hope this helps. I guess the LSWC benefit from being seated deeper since they are hollow.

[richiecotite]

The wadcutters that are loaded flush are generally swaged and hollow base. The ones with crimping bands (with a smidge of the wadcutter sticking out) are generally cast double ended wadcutter (DEWC).

The biggest difference is in the hardness of the lead. Swaged bullets are much softer, and should only be shot around 800 FPS. Cast bullets are usually good to 1200 FPS.

The trade off, if I’m understanding correctly, is that the HBWC have a sharper shoulder and do a better job cutting, vs the more rounded shoulder of the DEWC.


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[45dotACP]

Wasn't Jim Cirillo's outfit a big believer in the semi-wadcutter designs? I was just reading "Tales of the Stakeout Squad". Interesting stuff.

[rathos]

Ammo just showed up. They are loaded flush with the top almost crimped over. Tried to get a decent picture, but my camera didn't do much better than the iPhone. Hopefully I can shoot some this weekend but I will be in a class so we will see.

24924


I'm curious what yours will look like.

I do not have that shoulder sticking up out of the top.

[Bobcat]

Ammo just showed up. They are loaded flush with the top almost crimped over. Tried to get a decent picture, but my camera didn't do much better than the iPhone. Hopefully I can shoot some this weekend but I will be in a class so we will see.

24924

Your picture's good enough to show that yours is very similar to mine; they both look alike.

[Bobcat]

24925

Just took this.

[willie]

Most LSWC do not have the shoulder. Most DEWC do. I hope this helps. I guess the LSWC benefit from being seated deeper since they are hollow.

By definition, the shoulder is part of the swc design. Swc's are not hollow. Some wadcutter bullets are. The purpose of being hollow is that the base will expand upon firing and form a better gas seal and at the sake time conform to the bore more completely. Supposedly, they are claimed to be more accurate. A downside to hbwc's is that past a certain velocity level, a piece of a base may break off and remain in the barrel.

Richiecotite, my observation has been that cast wadcutters have sharp shoulders. This fact is a function of mold shape. Swaged bullets will have less sharp shoulders because they are pressed into a die under tons of pressure. Whether or not they are hbwc's or dewc's is not relevant. It depends on the particular die shape used in the forming process.

Cast bullets can be made extremely hard depending on alloy. If dropped from the mold into water, then they become even harder. If cast and then heat treated and then dropped into water, they become harder than a preacher's dick, which is much harder than Chinese arithmetic. So, it's now clear that a cast wc made under selected circumstances can penetrate with zero deformation.

Some may not know that wc's were popular with bullseye shooters primarily because they created a perfectly round(easily scored)bullet hole. Another reason is that with charges like 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder, the 148 grain wadcutter was cheap to reload and also was accurate out to 50 yards. Recoil with this load is low. My opinion is that other bullet shapes can be loaded to be just as accurate or even more accurate than wc's. One reason is that one can experiment with a greater powder range. Because the wc takes up so much case capacity, using slower powders is not an option. Past 50 yards the wc fails.

[rathos]

They were a fan of them as they were better than the widow maker load, the 158 grain round nose lead. They also flipped them around and loaded it with the open cavity in the bottom of the wadcutter pointed out. After shootings they would attend the autopsy and check on performance. All of Jim's books are great. I just wish I could have taken a class from him before he passed.


Wasn't Jim Cirillo's outfit a big believer in the semi-wadcutter designs? I was just reading "Tales of the Stakeout Squad". Interesting stuff.

[camsdaddy]

By definition, the shoulder is part of the swc design. Swc's are not hollow. Some wadcutter bullets are. The purpose of being hollow is that the base will expand upon firing and form a better gas seal and at the sake time conform to the bore more completely. Supposedly, they are claimed to be more accurate. A downside to hbwc's is that past a certain velocity level, a piece of a base may break off and remain in the barrel.

Richiecotite, my observation has been that cast wadcutters have sharp shoulders. This fact is a function of mold shape. Swaged bullets will have less sharp shoulders because they are pressed into a die under tons of pressure. Whether or not they are hbwc's or dewc's is not relevant. It depends on the particular die shape used in the forming process.

Cast bullets can be made extremely hard depending on alloy. If dropped from the mold into water, then they become even harder. If cast and then heat treated and then dropped into water, they become harder than a preacher's dick, which is much harder than Chinese arithmetic. So, it's now clear that a cast wc made under selected circumstances can penetrate with zero deformation.

Some may not know that wc's were popular with bullseye shooters primarily because they created a perfectly round(easily scored)bullet hole. Another reason is that with charges like 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder, the 148 grain wadcutter was cheap to reload and also was accurate out to 50 yards. Recoil with this load is low. My opinion is that other bullet shapes can be loaded to be just as accurate or even more accurate than wc's. One reason is that one can experiment with a greater powder range. Because the wc takes up so much case capacity, using slower powders is not an option. Past 50 yards the wc fails.

Thank you I obviously didnt read my hurried reply. I was trying to say that the HBWC normally have the sharper edges and are cast. SWC should have never made the post.

[willie]

Cam, I already had figured out what you intended to write. I enjoyed the opportunity to explain it. Bullet casting and lead bullets in general are favorite subjects. I'm knowledgeable in this area but do not claim expert status.

[RichY]

They were a fan of them as they were better than the widow maker load, the 158 grain round nose lead. They also flipped them around and loaded it with the open cavity in the bottom of the wadcutter pointed out. After shootings they would attend the autopsy and check on performance. All of Jim's books are great. I just wish I could have taken a class from him before he passed.

158 gr. LRN wasn't always a widow maker for the user. Sometimes it worked well when the bullet was placed in the right place. Years ago, when I was with LCSP in NW Indiana, there was a gang shooting on 80/94 where a gang member was shot high in his left chest and the bullet, due to elasticity of skin, was halfway sticking out the right side of the chest. He was DRT! Our issue load was the LSWCHP at the time, but I saw enough to never want to be on the receiving end of any bullet.

[richiecotite]

Not sure what wadcutters some of yinz are seeing online; but most cast wadcutter I see are double ended wadcutters. Most swaged HBWC I’ve seen have a sharper shoulder than most DEWC


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[Malamute]

Some wadcutter molds arent double ended. Not all are bevel base either. Bevel base are easier to cast and feed through machines, but less sharp shoulders. I recently saw one of the old ideal/lyman 358432 design offered commercially cast, it was the old school with slight shoulder outside the case, as used to be offered in factory target ammo up to the mid 60s I believe. I dot know if the button nose is a detriment to terminal performance compared to a flush seated style wadcutter without the button nose.

Edit: Matts Bullets has several wadcutter types available. looks like some arent bevel base, and they have the 358432 among others that also look good.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65

[sierra 223]

I still prefer the Remington version of FBI load.

[Ed L]

I still prefer the Remington version of FBI load.

I can see the validity of the Remington version of the FBI load if you choose to go with a +P hollowpoint.

I really like the discussion this thread has generated.

In this particular case I was interested in people's thoughts on +P hollowpoints vs the standard velocity wadcutter specifically out of a 2" barreled J-frame because:

1. I have heard quite a number of reports and tests where the higher velocity hollowpoints don't expand when fired from a 2" barrel. I am not sure enough about this.

2. Wadcutters tend to cut closer to full caliber holes. So it might be preferable to a hollowpoint that doesn't expand.

3. Wadcutters at standard velocities have less recoil than a +P load, making it more controllable to shoot and reducing shot-to-shot recovery times. This is especially important if you are not firing it out of a 21 ounce model S&W model 640 but a 15 ounce Smith & Wesson model 442.

Personally, out of anything less than a full weight S&W 640 or similar gun, I would not use +P loads. I prefer the enhanced controllability of lighter kicking loads which enhance my shot-to-shot recovery times.

[Tokarev]

All this talk of lead bullets and dated technology has me curious. How will these two bullets work out of a snub nose 38 when running about 800 feet per second?

The bullet on the left is a 130 grain while the bullet on the right is a 146 grain. Actual weights are closer to 127 and 144 grains.

Both are soft lead so they should expand well at low velocity. Can I get them to expand and still reach 12" in gel?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180417/32470e911c4d74c22f86dae247639df4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180417/ee8d9f4a011384fb09ff3f61d77bb8cf.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Will shoot in gel ASAP. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180419/2f3677ef1afc60a715327d0fbc66a9de.jpg

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[LOBO]

Those look good! Did you cast them yourself?

FWIW, Hornady has a .357/.38 spl. 158 gr. LSWCHP bullet that is made of real soft lead.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/419842/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-300

[Tokarev]

Those look good! Did you cast them yourself?

FWIW, Hornady has a .357/.38 spl. 158 gr. LSWCHP bullet that is made of real soft lead.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/419842/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-300I bought these from GT Bullets.

I have tried the 220gr and 255gr 44-cal bullets previously. I tested them in a 3in Ruger 44 Special. The 220gr doesn't expand violently but it penetrates well. IIRC I was getting 20+ inches in gel. The 255gr expands well and basically turns into a 50 cent piece. Penetrates to 14" or 15" in gel.



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[Tokarev]

More to try in gel. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/5bb1f7e7c233256a23dd3dc09537e063.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/4795998f7c014e185bc019723b410620.jpg

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[LOBO]

I bought these from GT Bullets.

I have tried the 220gr and 255gr 44-cal bullets previously. I tested them in a 3in Ruger 44 Special. The 220gr doesn't expand violently but it penetrates well. IIRC I was getting 20+ inches in gel. The 255gr expands well and basically turns into a 50 cent piece. Penetrates to 14" or 15" in gel.



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Thanks for the info on the GT Bullets & Hornady lead bullets ;)

What velocity were you pushing the 255 gr GT bullets?

[Tokarev]

What velocity were you pushing the 255 gr GT bullets?

Out of my 3" Ruger I was getting about 950 fps with Skeeter's load.

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[Tokarev]

Okay. I shot five rounds of the 130gr cast hollowpoint into gel. It is too dark now for photos so I'll wait until morning to cut the block open and dig the bullets out.

The bare gel bullets opened nicely but didn't get too far. Average here is only 7.25 inches.

The three bullets fired through clothing did quite a bit better. 11.5" was the average here.

The load is 6.0 grains of Winchester Auto Comp. Muzzle velocity average is 818 fps, standard deviation 35.27.

I still have the Double Tap 148 full wadcutter and the GT Bullets 145gr LSWCHP loads to shoot. I suppose the thing to do is wait until I have data for all three loads and start a brand new thread with all that data.

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[Tokarev]

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/50-round-box-38-special-148-grain-lead-wad-cutter-ammo-sellier-bellot-sb38b

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[GAP]

Of course.....about 2 decades ago. It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass.

Hi Doc, I didn’t want to start a new thread, but I was wondering if you found the Federal Gold Medal Wadcutters to have acceptable performance through barriers, such as bone?

I’ve read all of the posts I could find, but the responses seem to skip around the definitive answer.

I know the particular load I mentioned is in your 38 sp sticky, but I wasn’t sure if you had a different perspective now?

Given the option, would you rather the Gold Medal Wadcutters or a bonded HP?

Thanks

[Speederlander]

Hi Doc, I didn’t want to start a new thread, but I was wondering if you found the Federal Gold Medal Wadcutters to have acceptable performance through barriers, such as bone?

I’ve read all of the posts I could find, but the responses seem to skip around the definitive answer.

I know the particular load I mentioned is in your 38 sp sticky, but I wasn’t sure if you had a different perspective now?

Given the option, would you rather the Gold Medal Wadcutters or a bonded HP?

Thanks

I'm interested in this one as well.

[UNK]

Hi Doc, I didn’t want to start a new thread, but I was wondering if you found the Federal Gold Medal Wadcutters to have acceptable performance through barriers, such as bone?

I’ve read all of the posts I could find, but the responses seem to skip around the definitive answer.

I know the particular load I mentioned is in your 38 sp sticky, but I wasn’t sure if you had a different perspective now?

Given the option, would you rather the Gold Medal Wadcutters or a bonded HP?

Thanks


I'm interested in this one as well.

You have to page him or msg him. DocGKR

[GAP]

Unscientific study:

An old 2x4 that has been sitting in the woods for years can stop 38 special wadcutters and hollowpoints.

Federal Gold Medal Wadcutters and Winchester Ranger Bonded +P Hollowpoints we’re fired from 3-5 yards.

About 1/4 of both types got stuck and the rest pushed right on through. Relevant to self-defense? Not sure.. I just wanted to see what would happen.

I suppose the lesson here is that regardless of the ammo type, bullets can be unpredictable. Therefore, you’re probably better off choosing the lower recoil round and banking on multiple hits.

Federal Gold Medal Wadcutter - I was surprised to see it mushroom.
34363
34364

Winchester Bonded +P Hollowpoint - One heck of a wood plug.
34365
34366

[Scal]

So, I usually carry a 442, and very recently switched to the Gold Dot 135gr +p rounds from the HST 130gr rounds. The Gold Dot has a good track record in real world shootings, but I previously didn’t want to carry it in an alloy frame gun because of the excessive recoil. Despite the HST also being +p, it had significantly less recoil for me. The change I made was switching to Ergo Delta Grips.

These grips are pretty darn ugly, but it drastically improved the shootability of a J-frame for me compared to Hogue Bantam boot grips on the gun that it wore previously*. And now I feel comfortable to carry a more proven round, which also is a lot easier to reload than the HST.

*I went from not remotely being able to do a one successful string of a 5^5 drill with the Hogue grips, to handily being able to clean a string of five with the delta grips. Both drills were run with 148gr HBWC.

[DocGKR]

No one caries a sub 2" J-frame for the awesome terminal ballistics or fast reloads...

Many commercial wadcutters are made from softer lead alloys and are loaded to lower velocities, thus tend to do poorly against intermediate barriers compared to bonded +P loads. As noted in the thread above, one can acquire much harder lead projectiles which may do better against intermediate barriers, but these are not typically loaded by major ammo vendors.

Again, sub 2" .38 sp/.357 Mag revolvers are a compromise handgun.

[Jeep]

No one caries a sub 2" J-frame for the awesome terminal ballistics or fast reloads...

Many commercial wadcutters are made from softer lead alloys and are loaded to lower velocities, thus tend to do poorly against intermediate barriers compared to bonded +P loads. As noted in the thread above, one can acquire much harder lead projectiles which may do better against intermediate barriers, but these are not typically loaded by major ammo vendors.

Again, sub 2" .38 sp/.357 Mag revolvers are a compromise handgun.

I suppose most .38 specials represent a compromise load compared to 9mm's of approximately the same size. However, since I find lightweight j-frames pretty easy to carry, my view is to do what I've been doing for a long time. Load them with wadcutters, realize that they are far from Hammer-of-Thor rounds but are probably going to work better than .380's and accept the trade offs as being inherent in an imperfect world.

[revolvergeek]

I don't own a 327 nor have I shot one but I can't imagine it'd be too bad in the recoil department.

On paper, the little cartridge looks like it would be a good choice for a snubbie. The limiting factor is going to be choice of ammo and revolver.

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My experience is that the recoil was similar to an equivalent model 9mm snub; brisk, but not brutal. The blast was something though with full power loads. The the range people shooting around me would stop and walk over to see what I was shooting because it drowned out all the other shots.

That said, I am really starting to like the idea of a LCR .327 mag loaded with .32 magnum. I shot a lot of .32 long and magnum for targets and small game and have come to really appreciate the clean drill bit style hole that a hard cast 100 grain .32 wadcutter makes in all sorts of things. I have become a huge fan of the old S&W i frame revolvers, particularly the late improved i frame models, but haven't made the jump to carrying one yet.

[revolvergeek]

Unscientific study:

Federal Gold Medal Wadcutter - I was surprised to see it mushroom.
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Winchester Bonded +P Hollowpoint - One heck of a wood plug.
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I spent part of one summer digging lead out of the berm at a defunct LEO training range near here and you would be shocked how many expanded .38 wadcutters and unexpanded JHP loads that I found. Most of the target wadcutters showed some appreciable nose flattening / expansion, but very few of the hollow points did. I actually saw a lot of FMJ / ball rounds that flattened more than a lot of the hollowpoints. This was mostly old stuff, largely plain traditional JHPs, soft lead WC and very hard .357 mag LSW that somebody was loading bulk. Had a few Hydra Shoks and Black Talons in it, and some of the BTs actually looked textbook. I suppose it was mostly just a matter of how wet the berm was any given day when they were shooting, but it really opened my eyes about the potential of wadcutters because so many of them had deformed. A lot of that got recycled but I should still have a few around, and maybe pictures from when I dug them out.

[the Schwartz]

As noted by GAP in an earlier post—


Unscientific study:

An old 2x4 that has been sitting in the woods for years can stop 38 special wadcutters and hollowpoints.

Federal Gold Medal Wadcutters and Winchester Ranger Bonded +P Hollowpoints we’re fired from 3-5 yards.

About 1/4 of both types got stuck and the rest pushed right on through. Relevant to self-defense? Not sure.. I just wanted to see what would happen.

I suppose the lesson here is that regardless of the ammo type, bullets can be unpredictable. Therefore, you’re probably better off choosing the lower recoil round and banking on multiple hits.

Federal Gold Medal Wadcutter - I was surprised to see it mushroom.
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Winchester Bonded +P Hollowpoint - One heck of a wood plug.
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—any relationship between the behavior of a bullet passing through wood or soil and and how effective it will be when used for self-defense is irrelevant.


I spent part of one summer digging lead out of the berm at a defunct LEO training range near here and you would be shocked how many expanded .38 wadcutters and unexpanded JHP loads that I found. Most of the target wadcutters showed some appreciable nose flattening / expansion, but very few of the hollow points did. I actually saw a lot of FMJ / ball rounds that flattened more than a lot of the hollowpoints. This was mostly old stuff, largely plain traditional JHPs, soft lead WC and very hard .357 mag LSW that somebody was loading bulk. Had a few Hydra Shoks and Black Talons in it, and some of the BTs actually looked textbook. I suppose it was mostly just a matter of how wet the berm was any given day when they were shooting, but it really opened my eyes about the potential of wadcutters because so many of them had deformed. A lot of that got recycled but I should still have a few around, and maybe pictures from when I dug them out.

When it comes to finding deformed bullets in range back-stops, I have noticed that many of them tend to deform because they've hit something harder than mud....debris of some sort, a piece of wood, rock, gravel, sand, brick, glass, and even other bullets lodged in the back-stop. While they neat to look at, I doubt that any of it tells us anything meaningful about how those rounds would or will behave inside of a human body. When it comes to the .38 Special, unless the barrel is at least 4 inches in length, I assume that any round that I fire—even if I am using premium JHPs—will not expand and prepare accordingly.

[revolvergeek]

Absolutely. Completely unscientific and not related to performance in tissue, but just interesting and amusing to me. I always find it interesting to see how things perform in oddball circumstances. As you say many of them showed clear impact damage from hitting rocks, other bullets etc. Some of the foster style 12 ga shotgun slugs turned into modern art as they deformed and fused with other bullets, while other slugs ended up like little donuts. I'll go hunt my pictures. A lot of the wadcutters had perfect proto-mushrooms that looked like expansion from mud or wet sand, which again is nothing like tissue, but was interesting to me because before that I had never even thought that they had the possibility to expand short of splattering them on rock or steel.

[OlongJohnson]

Someone pointed to this thread from another one, so here comes the necro...


Of course.....about 2 decades ago. It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass.

So it seems that a harder lead WC at 750-800 fps with the sharpest corners available would be pretty close to ideal for a WC load. And the 860+ fps of the Buffalo Bore is overkill.



Much better long range stability than a WC is a main reason to prefer them.

Is that long-range stability issue limited to HBWC, or does it also apply to the shorter DEWC?

[UNK]

Someone pointed to this thread from another one, so here comes the necro...



So it seems that a harder lead WC at 750-800 fps with the sharpest corners available would be pretty close to ideal for a WC load. And the 860+ fps of the Buffalo Bore is overkill.




Is that long-range stability issue limited to HBWC, or does it also apply to the shorter DEWC?

I think it was Wayne Dobbs that posted this a few years ago. Chock full of good info. https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/backcreekdiary.htm