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View Full Version : Real life application of the "Hostage shot" with a shotgun



TCinVA
02-27-2018, 08:46 AM
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7a_1519440723

If you are a responder...whether professionally or forced into that role by circumstances...it is not uncommon to find an innocent entangled in some fashion with a violent criminal who needs to be stopped.

Because of enduring myths about the shotgun, a lot of people believe it is impossible to safely use buckshot to resolve a problem with that sort of entanglement. This is not the case.

The old rule of thumb about buckshot is that it spreads 1" for every yard of distance. This is not true with most loads fired through most guns. To wit:


https://youtu.be/7FE0Wsx7Pcs

In the video, Tom fires a load of basic crappy buckshot at 5 yards. Notice that you don't see a 5" spread at 5 yards. The pattern is just a little bit larger than the bore. With a load like Federal Flight Control the pattern would be the same size as the bore at that distance. With most buckshot loads in most shotguns you do not see a smooth, predictable progression of spread over distance in the buckshot. You tend to see significant spread starting somewhere in the 5-10 yard range, with the rate of spread tending to increase further after 15 yards. The old rule of thumb may start to get closer to reality at these extended distances (10 yards and beyond) but it's not very good at predicting pattern size with typical shotguns and typical buckshot loads at the more typical distances where fights happen.

Of course, the only way to know for sure what your gun will do is to take your gun out with the ammunition you wish to use in it and pattern it at different distances...but even if you are using an untouched cylinder bore 870 with the cheapest buckshot you can find you will likely find that your pattern size at 5 yards is still essentially one big hole.

There are other useful lessons here, too.

It's pretty clear the officer in this shooting had his mind wired tight. A few things tell us this:

- Thinking there is a realistic possibility of a fight, he grabbed something more powerful than his handgun
- When the officer saw the threat he immediately made his weapon ready and closed distance with the threat
- The officer did not waste time arguing with the suspect...when he saw some separation between the armed criminal and the hostage he seized the moment and made an instantly incapacitating shot

This officer was well trained, apparently well practiced, and exhibited the confidence only available to the well prepared. These are significant advantages in a fight. Doing the work matters. SOCAL law enforcement has a history of successfully using the shotgun on the street and the training on the shotgun in some of those agencies is far above the frankly meager level that is the average nation wide. I'd say that played a significant role in what we see here.

When you really understand the weapon and what you can do with it, the shotgun offers you a decisive advantage in the typical shooting problems faced by citizens and police.

JHC
02-27-2018, 08:55 AM
Decisive

I put down a crippled deer at about 5 yards with #1 buck Flite Control. Yep, 12 bore entry wound.

tanner
02-27-2018, 01:03 PM
Decisive for sure! Outstanding work by the officer.

Peally
02-27-2018, 01:14 PM
Saw the video today.

Spread isn't much of an issue if you touch the guy's face with the muzzle first :D

GJM
02-27-2018, 01:22 PM
What is current thinking on the potential for the wad to strike outside the buckshot pattern, possibly injuring a hostage? Does the Federal Flight Control load have any improvements in this regard.

A number of years ago, Awerbuck/Jeans/Cain/Clint Smith were advocating the Brenneke slug with attached wad in that sort of situation, but I realize things change.

Lon
02-27-2018, 02:31 PM
That was impressive. I’d like to buy him a beer.

Coyotesfan97
02-27-2018, 02:32 PM
OUTSTANDING!!

Peally
02-27-2018, 02:50 PM
This link has video (on the bottom of the article) with the two body cameras in addition to the IR cam:

https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/

Erick Gelhaus
02-27-2018, 04:37 PM
This link has video (on the bottom of the article) with the two body cameras in addition to the IR cam:

https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/

I thought this ^^^^ video was the one in TC's original post. For those who had the priviledge of training under Awerbuck, looked like a real world application of the multiple mannequin run he used.

Unobtanium
02-28-2018, 07:33 AM
What is current thinking on the potential for the wad to strike outside the buckshot pattern, possibly injuring a hostage? Does the Federal Flight Control load have any improvements in this regard.

A number of years ago, Awerbuck/Jeans/Cain/Clint Smith were advocating the Brenneke slug with attached wad in that sort of situation, but I realize things change.

At 25 yards, sometimes it strikes a 14x14 target, sometimes not. At the distance he fired at, I bet it was still POA/POI. That said, he had what gun he had, and he had in it what he had in it, and he was where he was. The planning part had long since been over, and the acting part went well, thankfully for all.

Unobtanium
02-28-2018, 07:34 AM
This link has video (on the bottom of the article) with the two body cameras in addition to the IR cam:

https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/

No videos on that link I could find.

Chuck Whitlock
02-28-2018, 08:49 AM
The video is at the bottom. The top 4 or so are stills from the footage.

nalesq
02-28-2018, 09:48 AM
What is current thinking on the potential for the wad to strike outside the buckshot pattern, possibly injuring a hostage?.

At close range, I bet it’s a lot less likely and less dangerous than a missed handgun shot for the vast majority of folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

GJM
02-28-2018, 10:37 AM
At 25 yards, sometimes it strikes a 14x14 target, sometimes not. At the distance he fired at, I bet it was still POA/POI. That said, he had what gun he had, and he had in it what he had in it, and he was where he was. The planning part had long since been over, and the acting part went well, thankfully for all.


At close range, I bet it’s a lot less likely and less dangerous than a missed handgun shot for the vast majority of folks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This is a discussion point, not a critique of what someone did to solve an emergency.

In the 35+ years I have been shooting defensive shotguns, in the many classes I have attended, I have never been able to predict where the wad will hit, using loads without an attached wad like the Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs. Sometimes the wad is in the pattern, sometimes it is close, and sometimes it is “way over there.” That is why I was wondering if Federal did anything with the buck load, to try to contain the wad. Ideally, there would be data to say what the dispersion of the wad is at various distances, with your buck load.

I have also never been able to assess the damage a wad would cause, besides punching a through hole in cardboard targets. My gut is that it would put an eye out, but that is just a guess. Not sure if anyone here has done testing to try to determine the wounding potential of the wad.

Most serious defensive shotgun people I know have zeroed their shotgun to slugs, carry slugs, and practice select slug drills. I have been taught that you would perform a select slug procedure in the event of a hostage shot, and that is a very fast switch. I am not sure if this thread is an example that, within its limitations, buck can be effective even in a hostage situation, or a recommendation to use buck over a single projectile solution.

Tabasco
02-28-2018, 12:30 PM
At close range, I bet it’s a lot less likely and less dangerous than a missed handgun shot for the vast majority of folks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

FWIW

Patterning various FC with 4 different cyl. barrels and makes of shotgun, out to 10 yards the wad follows the shot through a single ragged hole in a target. At 15 yards the wad tends to impact the target 3-5" somewhere next to the pattern on the target. It penetrates cardboard, but not super thin plywood. I have been using plywood that was packing material for furniture, it's so thin I don't think you could buy it in a hardware store. At 25 yards and beyond, sometimes it hits the target, sometimes I find it on the ground in front of the target. With a choke, I never see the wad impact at 15 yards and beyond, along with wider patterns compared to cyl. barrels.

TCinVA
02-28-2018, 12:38 PM
24130

Above is a composite pattern (3 shots) of #1 FFC at 25 yards through my Wilson customized Big Bertha 870. (Named as such because she's heavy)

You can see the wad stuck in the target.

It varies from gun to gun, but in my observations in my guns the FFC wad on 00 loads sticks pretty close to the shot payload up to around 10 yards. The wads on the #1 loads seems to stick with the shot load even longer, hitting close to the payload from 15-25 yards. In this photo I was sighting the gun in and it shot a bit low and a bit left. The rest of the wads (which I could see thanks to the lighting conditions) flew just to the left of the target.

Given the wad's low mass my somewhat educated guess is that at the ranges where the wad can cause some level of damage, it's going to be in sufficiently close proximity to the shot payload that it isn't really a concern. At the distances where the wad has separated significantly from the payload it likely lacks the ability to do any significant injury unless it happens to hit someone directly in the eye. When you look at reasonable gelatin tests of shotgun payloads the wad either follows into the temporary cavity created by the payload or bounces harmlessly off the end of the gelatin itself. Keep in mind that a lot of the stuff you see inside a gel shot is the result of a big temporary cavity that has been opened up by the payload, not because the individual contaminants have that kind of penetration ability on their own.

In terms of collateral damage, I'd be more worried about the cloud of GREX that surrounds many duty-grade buckshot loads as that spreads out much farther than the payload itself at closer distances and probably isn't terribly good for the eyes of an innocent person.

...of course, this sort of shot is being taken due to some pretty extreme circumstances in the first place and possible corneal abrasion is likely the least of our concerns.

Unobtanium
02-28-2018, 02:39 PM
The video is at the bottom. The top 4 or so are stills from the footage.

I even scrolled through all the comments. Nothin'

Unobtanium
02-28-2018, 02:43 PM
This is a discussion point, not a critique of what someone did to solve an emergency.

In the 35+ years I have been shooting defensive shotguns, in the many classes I have attended, I have never been able to predict where the wad will hit, using loads without an attached wad like the Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs. Sometimes the wad is in the pattern, sometimes it is close, and sometimes it is “way over there.” That is why I was wondering if Federal did anything with the buck load, to try to contain the wad. Ideally, there would be data to say what the dispersion of the wad is at various distances, with your buck load.

I have also never been able to assess the damage a wad would cause, besides punching a through hole in cardboard targets. My gut is that it would put an eye out, but that is just a guess. Not sure if anyone here has done testing to try to determine the wounding potential of the wad.

Most serious defensive shotgun people I know have zeroed their shotgun to slugs, carry slugs, and practice select slug drills. I have been taught that you would perform a select slug procedure in the event of a hostage shot, and that is a very fast switch. I am not sure if this thread is an example that, within its limitations, buck can be effective even in a hostage situation, or a recommendation to use buck over a single projectile solution.

At 10 yards, the wad is going to pretty well hit POA. Out past that much, and it's anyone's guess, has been my personal experience using the ammo used.

PD Sgt.
02-28-2018, 08:02 PM
I have on several occasions investigated shotgun shootings in which the wad was recovered from inside the victim. The coroner told me based on their experience this is most likely to occur at distances within 10 feet and that it usually followed the wound channel (as in did not separate from the shot externally).

At shotgun shootings that occurred at greater distances I do not ever recall anyone claiming to have been injured by wadding, though to be honest, it was not something I thought to track.

GJM
02-28-2018, 08:35 PM
Thanks for a number of helpful posts on the wad’s dispersion and wounding potential. Seems like the main risk is a stray or spreading pellet, rather than the wad (excepting a close range hit to the eye).

Lester Polfus
02-28-2018, 09:16 PM
Thanks for a number of helpful posts on the wad’s dispersion and wounding potential. Seems like the main risk is a stray or spreading pellet, rather than the wad (excepting a close range hit to the eye).

I'm late to the party, but after looking into this in-depth, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well.

Once I burn up my stash of Tru-Ball, I'm still going to switch to Brennekes, with the attached wad being one of the myriad of reasons, but I dont' feel a need to deadline the TruBalls right now because of it.

feudist
02-28-2018, 09:39 PM
That was an elegant moment.

Unobtanium
02-28-2018, 10:34 PM
Thanks for a number of helpful posts on the wad’s dispersion and wounding potential. Seems like the main risk is a stray or spreading pellet, rather than the wad (excepting a close range hit to the eye).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbZK9Lm9jQ

txdpd
03-01-2018, 09:25 AM
If you're into the OODA loop stuff this is a textbook example. It's textbook a lot things, mainly being a bad ass.

That looks to be about a 3 foot shooting. Because he did the job in it textbook fashion, he had a completely unobstructed headshot, either it's a hit or miss and secondary projectiles aren't an issue.

The officer is flanking, the suspect is turning to counter the officer's movement, but the suspect is holding onto the hostage and being anchored in place, and as a result the suspect pulls himself away from the hostage and BAM! wide open spaces for the headshot. Honestly the hostage was at more risk of a through and through on the suspect's head, about two more steps and the officer would have turned the suspect 180 degrees.

txdpd
03-01-2018, 10:03 AM
A fraction of the second before the shot, in hostage rescue terms the aperture is huge.

txdpd
03-01-2018, 10:14 AM
Another angle from cover officer body cam https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/

Red dot is suspects head, blue dot is hostages.

txdpd
03-01-2018, 10:24 AM
From the officer body camera.

The suspect off the screen, but the officer has turned the suspect so much that the hostage is falling on her ass, and the hostage is either going to fall away from the suspect or he's going to have to let the hostage go to engage the officer.

Seriously you can't make this shit up.

Hambo
03-01-2018, 02:03 PM
OUTSTANDING!!

Yes, it was.

Unobtanium
03-04-2018, 12:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2GjC7hQ8es

As part of my slug accuracy testing series, I tested the Truball LR slugs at 50 yards. The pertinent aspect of this video, per this thread, is at 2:30-2:34.