.44 Special loads

[Crazy Dane]

This may be better in the ammo section, If so the mods can move it if they feel the need.

I am at a junction in loading my ammo. I have been shooting a 255grn Keith bullet,https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lyman-429421-255gr-swc-k-authentic-keith/ in my R&D and have 2 good loads worked up that shoot very well. Both uses 2400, 17.2 grns gives 1230 fps and 15.0 grns is 1065fps and both loads are 2 inch groups. Point of impact is less than 2 inches difference at 50yds. The pistol is a Ruger GP100 with the 5 inch barrel.

The mission of this pistol and load is Field/walk the dog pistol. Things that might have to get shot, in the most to least likely; In the defensive role, stray/loose dogs, snakes, coyotes, black bear, and thugs. In the hunting role, bunnies*, grouse*, and possibly a whitetail deer. *- I will work up a shot shell that will take these cleanly. If I draw a WY elk tag, the pistol will go with me loaded with the 1200fps Keith load. I used to do all of this with a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt but my oldest son thought he needed it more than I did.

I feel like anything that needs to be shot whit this deserves the Keith bullet at 1200+fps but wisdom and history says the same bullet at 1000fps is more than adequate for the job. I intend to load both loads and have even bought nickel plated brass to keep them separate. What's all yalls opinion?

I also got some of these in with my last order to work up. The meplat is .400.https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-240gr-owc-pb/
Any suggestions?

Thanks, Forrest

[Wayne Dobbs]

Quite frankly, all that extra velocity does is increase recoil, increase gun wear and inconsequentially flatten trajectory. Any of the large meplat .44 caliber full weight bullets will work just fine at 900 fps and are a lot easier to manage at that level. I'd be shocked if you ever recover even a 900 fps bullet from anything elk size down that's shot from side to side. I've used .44 and .45 SWCs a 875-900 fps to shoot lengthwise through enough deer to know that's a hopeless pursuit. Those big bullets knock a good hole all the way through the critter...

[andre3k]

I've read posts from others that a 240gr cast bullet at 1200fps will enter one side and come out the other side of anything that walks around in North America. I haven't hunted enough to say if that completely true but results in gel are showing 30+ inches of penetrations with these loads. For my 44spl load I tend to stay under 1000 FPS and would feel quite comfortable with that even with a 240gr bullet. Unless you simply like shooting hot loads, you could probably bump it the velocity down a bit and still accomplish your goal.

[okie john]

There's an interesting article by John Linebaugh at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12


I have seen my wife shoot two or three mule deer and about eight antelope now with a .45 Colt. The load she has used almost exclusively for seven years now is a 260 Keith slug at 900 fps out of a 4 3/4" Seville revolver. This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.

It kills in my estimation better than a .270 or .30-06 class rifle as it acts a lot like an arrow and doesn't excite the animal. They usually show minor hit reaction and trot off 20 to 30 yards. By then they have leaked so much, they are done. No whistles or bells, just honest consistent performance.

I have used this load on two antelope with exacting results. In my early hunting years I used the same 260 gr Keith at 1,400 fps. out of a dozen antelope and one mule deer I have personally taken I can't see that it stops them one bit better than the 900 fps load.

When the guy who invented the 475 Linebaugh says that a 260-grain slug at 900 fps is big medicine, I listen.


Okie John

[Crazy Dane]

Will yall two get out of my head. LOL! I have read Elmer Keith's and Skeeter Skelton's writings and along with this Ruger pistol and the lead bullets, it has sparked something anew. I have been giddy launching these big chunks of lead, something I never experienced shooting the .45 colt. Like an old scrooge, I want it all but I guess the good thing about reloading is I can have just about any load in just few minutes at the bench. I will know tomorrow if we drew an elk tag for Wyoming, if we do it will be a September archery hunt. According to the good folk at WY game and fish, the area we hunt is grizzly country(Grays River drainage). My hunting partner seen a "brown" bear from afar the last time out. He didn't want to call it a grizzly because, in his words "I couldn't tell a black bear from a griz if they were sitting side by side in a zoo". Since we are doing this the hard way, we would be packing out the meat on our backs and I don't want to run into a hungry bear with a 90 pound elk ham on my back, hence the want for the heavy load. I think for the most part, I have known I would settle on a good bullet around the 1000 fps mark for my neck of the woods but I needed to hear it out loud. This has been a fun process so far. I am considering picking up the 3 inch barreled model to go with my 5 inch Thanks for letting me ramble and rant even if it is incoherently. As always, I know I don't know everything, so I am open to comment, suggestions and opposing veiwpoints.

Thanks, Forrest

[PNWTO]

I've been down this road toying with my .45 Blackhawk loads and really want one of the Ruger "No 5 for the broke guy" Bisleys. I think the classic Keith load for .44 will do just about everything you could ask of a handgun. IMO I would trust it and adjust the load up or down depending on the accuracy and recoil tolerance.




When the guy who invented the 475 Linebaugh says that a 260-grain slug at 900 fps is big medicine, I listen.

Okie John

Great read, thank you.

[Crazy Dane]

There's an interesting article by John Linebaugh at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12



When the guy who invented the 475 Linebaugh says that a 260-grain slug at 900 fps is big medicine, I listen.


Okie John

Thanks, that was a good read. I used some of his data when I started with the .45 colt. I eventually settled on the 250 grn Nosler sporting handgun bullet and H110 powder close to 1100 fps. That load took several deer and I never recovered a bullet. Sadly, I could not find an affordable S&W model 25 to continue down that road and I didn't want to go back to a single action nor did I want a heavy Redhawk . I was actually slumming used gun stores for a 25 the day I stumbled across this Ruger.

[Hambo]

I'm not arguing with John Linebaugh, but my .44 magnum and .45 Colt loads are ballistic equals when loaded with H110 and 250gr bullets. I don't think I've gone beyond starting loads with the .45 because it's got plenty of juice at that level.

Montana Bullet Works casts great bullets.

[Wayne Dobbs]

There's an interesting article by John Linebaugh at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12



When the guy who invented the 475 Linebaugh says that a 260-grain slug at 900 fps is big medicine, I listen.


Okie John

This Linebaugh article from years ago is what started me down the road of a very moderate load in .44 Special and .45 AR to kill deer. It simply works.

[revchuck38]

This Linebaugh article from years ago is what started me down the road of a very moderate load in .44 Special and .45 AR to kill deer. It simply works.

Oh, do tell. :) My M22-4 needs a job.

[okie john]

Oh, do tell. :) My M22-4 needs a job.

If you want to go old school, then get a 250-grain SWC moving about 900 fps. If not, then you'd probably be fine with any of the heavier .45 ACP loads on Doc's list if they shoot well.

I had a 4" Model 625 Model of 1989, and I found that a roll crimp gave the best accuracy and velocity. Unfortunately, getting a roll crimp was a pain in the ass. A standard 45 ACP die will roll crimp cases if you screw it down far enough, but only after applying a very strong taper crimp. That crushed the driving band of the SWC bullets I was using and ruined accuracy.

A 45 Colt die will roll crimp cases without the taper crimp, but it's too long for a 45 AR case mouth to reach the crimping shoulder, so I had a buddy with a machine shop cut the bottom 3/4" off of an extra 45 Colt die. Presto, instant proper roll crimp. The ammo I loaded with that die shot well and did about 850 fps in a 4" barrel, which should be enough for deer. I also had to trim RP 45 AR brass to a consistent length, as it was pretty sloppy as it came. Starline is probably more consistent, but I've been out of the 45 AR game for about a decade now so I can't say.

The whole point of getting a 625 was to simplify logistics and shoot 45 ACP ammo, but it shot 45 AR ammo so much better that it wasn't worth the trouble. I ended up selling it and hunting deer with a 5" M-629 Classic, which is pretty much ideal for the task.


Okie John

[revchuck38]

okie john - Thanks!

I found a box of 500 of 240-grain .45 LSWCs years ago and loaded them into .45AR brass over an unremembered charge of 473AA. They worked fine in a 1917. I still have about 130 of them left, need to try them in the 22-4. This bullet (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-rcbs-82308-230gr-rfp-pb/) seems to be perfect for the AR, and I probably wouldn't have to worry about a different POA/POI since the 22-4 shoots 230 RNL to the sights now.

[okie john]

No problem. That slug should be fine, but check your POI at 35-50 yards if you load it hot. Velocity can alter your POI out there.


Okie John

[entropy]

This site is such a great resource. OP, I think you’re my brother from another mother.

Pretty much the same exact thoughts and path I have been travelling, difference is I started with the 3” and am ordering the 5” while its still available. My goals are the same as well. A stout 250gr LSWC load for serious wilderness issues and a more mild one for general purpose. I found the 3” GP I have likes the cast bullets at .431. I get my best accuracy there. I’ve experimented with jacketed and coated but cannot seem to get the same results. Powder wise, Unique and 2400 seem to work the best for me. 6.5gr of the Unique gives me about 700fps while 16.0gr of the 2400 yields about 1050 from the 3” Ruger. I’d love to find a slightly different bullet design for the lighter general purpose load. In addition, the lighter charge of Unique has given me issues with unburned flakes under the star. I’d like to find something a bit more clean burning.

I like your idea of the nickel brass. Where did you find that?? I have issues enough finding .44spl brass of any kind locally. Best I recall, I’ve never seen it online at the usual places like Grafs etc.

The only other thing in the works for me is I would like to pick up a like chambered lever gun to compliment the revolvers. It would be nice to find a load workable in both (with perhaps maybe .44mag loads for the rifle if needed. On that end, I’m leaning towards a cheaper Rossi, as my thoughts for it are a “working gun” that would be treated like my Stihls...not pampered, but neither abused. Lastly, how are you likeing that 5” GP after a few months of playing with it? I still an happy with the 3”, but I can see where and extra couple inches of barrel would help my eyes, especially in the woods. I carry the 3” (with either the GD or SIG loading) quite a bit as a CCW rig. In a DeSantis Thumbbreak, it rides nice and hides nice...even for its size.

Thanks again for a timely thread. Eager to hear your response and more from others.

Best

[Wayne Dobbs]

entropy -

Buy your .44 Special and .45 AR brass from Starline and never look back. They make superb brass in these two calibers (and many others).

[Lester Polfus]

I like your idea of the nickel brass. Where did you find that?? I have issues enough finding .44spl brass of any kind locally. Best I recall, I’ve never seen it online at the usual places like Grafs etc.

The only other thing in the works for me is I would like to pick up a like chambered lever gun to compliment the revolvers. It would be nice to find a load workable in both (with perhaps maybe .44mag loads for the rifle if needed. On that end, I’m leaning towards a cheaper Rossi, as my thoughts for it are a “working gun” that would be treated like my Stihls...not pampered, but neither abused. Lastly, how are you likeing that 5” GP after a few months of playing with it? I still an happy with the 3”, but I can see where and extra couple inches of barrel would help my eyes, especially in the woods. I carry the 3” (with either the GD or SIG loading) quite a bit as a CCW rig. In a DeSantis Thumbbreak, it rides nice and hides nice...even for its size.

Thanks again for a timely thread. Eager to hear your response and more from others.

Best

I second the recommendation of Starline brass. I've had excellent luck with it.

I dunno how much research you've done into the Rossi leverguns. I've been tempted by them more than once, however, they are reported widely to have pretty hit or miss quality. Some of them are more like a lever gun 80% parts kit, and by the time folks are done screwing around with them and sending them to Stevezguns and such, they have a rifle that costs more than a Marlin but has Rossi resale value. There's also no provision for a receiver mounted sight, except for an outfit that makes one to replace the safety on top of the bolt.

Also, Marlin is supposed to be releasing some new 16" 1894's in .44 Mag.

Just food for thought

[Crazy Dane]

This site is such a great resource. OP, I think you’re my brother from another mother.

Pretty much the same exact thoughts and path I have been travelling, difference is I started with the 3” and am ordering the 5” while its still available. My goals are the same as well. A stout 250gr LSWC load for serious wilderness issues and a more mild one for general purpose. I found the 3” GP I have likes the cast bullets at .431. I get my best accuracy there. I’ve experimented with jacketed and coated but cannot seem to get the same results. Powder wise, Unique and 2400 seem to work the best for me. 6.5gr of the Unique gives me about 700fps while 16.0gr of the 2400 yields about 1050 from the 3” Ruger. I’d love to find a slightly different bullet design for the lighter general purpose load. In addition, the lighter charge of Unique has given me issues with unburned flakes under the star. I’d like to find something a bit more clean burning.

I like your idea of the nickel brass. Where did you find that?? I have issues enough finding .44spl brass of any kind locally. Best I recall, I’ve never seen it online at the usual places like Grafs etc.

The only other thing in the works for me is I would like to pick up a like chambered lever gun to compliment the revolvers. It would be nice to find a load workable in both (with perhaps maybe .44mag loads for the rifle if needed. On that end, I’m leaning towards a cheaper Rossi, as my thoughts for it are a “working gun” that would be treated like my Stihls...not pampered, but neither abused. Lastly, how are you likeing that 5” GP after a few months of playing with it? I still an happy with the 3”, but I can see where and extra couple inches of barrel would help my eyes, especially in the woods. I carry the 3” (with either the GD or SIG loading) quite a bit as a CCW rig. In a DeSantis Thumbbreak, it rides nice and hides nice...even for its size.

Thanks again for a timely thread. Eager to hear your response and more from others.

Best


Hi brother from another mother,

I picked up the nickel brass at midway and will use it to load my stout loads, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/941455237/starline-reloading-brass-44-special. The other bullet I got in from Montana Bullet Works looks like it will be a thumper. I definitely plan on loading some of these in the stout range. I think the majority of what I load, regardless of bullet, will be in the 1000 fps range. I think I am going to stick with 2400 for powder. I am finding the Unique is very dirty and I'm finding unburnt powder even with the heavy loads. I do have a jug of H110 I may try but I'm not really sure what I would gain. I still need to work up some shot shell loads. I hope to get number 6 shot to pattern well for the grouse and bunnies.

As far as the 5 inch barrel goes, I feel it gives me an advantage for longer shots. I have been able to keep most of my shots in a 6 inch circle at 75 yards, off the bench and hopefully with some practice, I'll be able to take it on out to 100, if my eyes will let me. I do have intentions of carrying this pistol as a primary during whitetail season. I am really happy with the Cattleman holster from Simple Rugged. The way this holster covers the trigger guard makes it very secure. The hammer thong is just extra security. The leather is still stiff enough that it doesn't collapse and reholstering is not a problem, it may soften up over time. I hung it on a Triple K cartridge belt, while the belt isn't perfect it will do until I find something better. I have worn this setup for several miles of walking the dogs and it is unobtrusive and comfortable.

I did draw my elk tag for Wyoming so that is going to hinder my firearms purchasing for this year but I still plan on picking up a 3 inch model for social purposes . My research into leaver guns as a companion brings me full circle back to Marlin every time(unless Henry comes out with a side gate). I looked into the Pumas and found that it seems they don't like the Special length cartridges as much as the Marlin. Grab-A-Gun has had the best prices on the Marlins https://grabagun.com/marlin-1894-44mag-20-lvr-bl-70400.html and feels this gives me the most value for the dollar. I'm just worried what the Remington bankruptcy is going to do to Marlin.

The weather here is starting to warm and if it will ever stop raining, I will put in some long days of load development. I will post results here. I just wish I had the resources for a few gel tests.

Happy shooting, Forrest

[entropy]

Thanks for the return reply and comments. I’m running a bit low on the Oregon Trail LSWC I’m currently loading so just might copy you on the Keith (can’t go wrong there) and the “stretched wadcutters” as well. I’ve had the same issues with some unburned flakes of Unique, but haven’t tried much beyond that and the 2400 to be honest. I have H110 and Blue Dot on the shelf as well. I’m not adverse to trying something else either...should probably look into that.

Thanks for the smack on the head with the brass. Sure enough, looked at the Midway page and there’s a drop down for choosing either brass or nickel. Doh! I do the same with .38spl...nickel is the hotter loads, brass the plinkers. Makes it easy.

As far as the lever guns go, I’m currently stuck on the Winchester profile. A nice octogon rifle would be nice, but just can’t justify the money for a working gun that will spend more time against a tree getting covered in saw dust than sitting on a fireplace mantle being admired. Regardless, the Ruger 5” is further up the “want list” at this point in time simply because of its limited availability.

Thanks again for the info. Post when you experiment with the bullets and I’ll do same.

[entropy]

Ordered up some of those Keith-style semi wadcutters and the “elongated wadcutters” from Montana Bullet Works. Also ordered some of the 240gr Lyman hollowpoints that were discussed in the GP100 thread in the revolver forum by Tokarev. This should keep me going for a bit. Will report back.

How does everyone feel on the strength of these GP100 frames? I’m not trying to turn it into a .44mag, but want the most I can get from it. I have some loads that use 16.0gr of 2400 with a 240gr LSWC. Pretty stiff. They are not “every day loads” or even “every day woods loads” for me but specific if I think I will need something more and the Mossberg is too much to carry. It seems the GP frame is at least on par with the Blackhawk frame no? On some other forums there is discussion about shying away from anything above the Pearce Level 2 loads. That seems a bit dramatic to me. I’m not going to be running hundreds of the 16gr 2400s thru the gun.

I also found a nice link to the LASC. There is HOURS of “good readin’ and whiskey drinkin’” articles on this link. The Glen Fryxell stuff is particularly interesting. Enjoy!!

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

[willie]

The two loads will do he same thing. The slower one will permit more practice before fatigue sets in and is less likely to cause flinching. Very important is the fact that the slower load will allow faster follow up shots. If you are not an accomplished double action shooter, I urge you to learn the art. Even lighter loads will permit practice without fatigue and flinching while you learn the technique.

[Tokarev]

Ordered up some of those Keith-style semi wadcutters and the “elongated wadcutters” from Montana Bullet Works. Also ordered some of the 240gr Lyman hollowpoints that were discussed in the GP100 thread in the revolver forum by Tokarev. This should keep me going for a bit. Will report back.

How does everyone feel on the strength of these GP100 frames? I’m not trying to turn it into a .44mag, but want the most I can get from it. I have some loads that use 16.0gr of 2400 with a 240gr LSWC. Pretty stiff. They are not “every day loads” or even “every day woods loads” for me but specific if I think I will need something more and the Mossberg is too much to carry. It seems the GP frame is at least on par with the Blackhawk frame no? On some other forums there is discussion about shying away from anything above the Pearce Level 2 loads. That seems a bit dramatic to me. I’m not going to be running hundreds of the 16gr 2400s thru the gun.

I also found a nice link to the LASC. There is HOURS of “good readin’ and whiskey drinkin’” articles on this link. The Glen Fryxell stuff is particularly interesting. Enjoy!!

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm





Here are some options if you want to play with cast hollow points.

I've tried a 185gr LSWC hollow point from another company and didn't have very good luck with it. It shot okay but either broke apart or failed to expand when fired into Clear Gel. There might be a magic velocity that gives good expansion but I never found it. I haven't tried the 190gr from GT. The alloy might be soft enough that the bullet will mushroom well at 1000-ish FPS.

GT's 220gr worked well for me and might be the bullet I'd chose as a "field load." I didn't have much trouble getting 1,000 FPS out of this bullet with 2400. In gel we normally saw 20+ inches of penetration. The nose of the bullet is such that it sort of opens and expands but doesn't mushroom. Looks sort of like a church bell when recovered.

GT's 255gr worked really well. 7.5gr of Unique gave me 900 FPS from my 3" GP. In gel the bullet gave us 15 inches of penetration and opened up to look about like a silver dollar. It would probably be a great choice for defense if you were inclined to use handloads for that type of thing.

Down side to the GT's is they're a little soft. I had some leading when getting aggressive with my loads.

http://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=8&zenid=h46ar5hqd8qd9ki6264b6h85a4

[Wayne Dobbs]

GT's 255gr worked really well. 7.5gr of Unique gave me 900 FPS from my 3" GP. In gel the bullet gave us 15 inches of penetration and opened up to look about like a silver dollar. It would probably be a great choice for defense if you were inclined to use handloads for that type of thing.

Down side to the GT's is they're a little soft. I had some leading when getting aggressive with my loads.

The conventional wisdom that a bullet being soft causes leading is pretty well shot apart by a bunch of guys (including at least one long time industry giant) over at the Cast Boolit Forum (misspelling intentional). What they've shown is that bullets that don't fit the cylinder throats because they are undersized and/or improperly lubed is what causes leading. They cast and size revolver bullets to fit those throats and get great results. Another member has a business of reaming and honing those throats to proper and consistent diameters as most factory jobs at this are mediocre to poor. Interesting place and lots to learn from another part of the handgun world.

[Tokarev]

The conventional wisdom that a bullet being soft causes leading is pretty well shot apart by a bunch of guys (including at least one long time industry giant) over at the Cast Boolit Forum (misspelling intentional). What they've shown is that bullets that don't fit the cylinder throats because they are undersized and/or improperly lubed is what causes leading. They cast and size revolver bullets to fit those throats and get great results. Another member has a business of reaming and honing those throats to proper and consistent diameters as most factory jobs at this are mediocre to poor. Interesting place and lots to learn from another part of the handgun world.I did order the GT Bullets in a size that best fit the throats on my GP.

That particular handgun probably has a little bit of construction in the barrel where it is screwed into the frame.

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[Tokarev]

How does everyone feel on the strength of these GP100 frames? I’m not trying to turn it into a .44mag, but want the most I can get from it. On some other forums there is discussion about shying away from anything above the Pearce Level 2 loads. That seems a bit dramatic to me. I’m not going to be running hundreds of the 16gr 2400s thru the gun.


I wouldn't think the frame will be an issue. I'd think the weakest part of the gun is probably the thin forcing cone. Still, I doubt you'll wear anything out unless you shoot nothing but Keith loads exclusively.

In my 3" I got close but never loaded all the way to full Keith. Not necessarily out of safety concerns but more out of concerns for unpleasant. I have compact grips on the gun that make for nice carry but they aren't the best when trying to replicate something Elmer would have liked.

On the other hand, Skeeter loads are fine. Still plenty of thump on both ends of the gun but still mild enough to enjoy shooting.



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[entropy]

Here’s a short little blurb on leading:

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

I appreciate the link for GT. I recall your testing when you got the GP, but the name escaped me. They seem to be the Lyman Devestator design, which is what Matts market as well. The alloy listed had a velocity range, so thats where I will concentrate. I really dont want to start experimenting with powder if I can help it. I have a copious quantity of Unique and would just as well prefer to use that. It will probably be a week or two before everything shows up and I get things loaded. The sweet spot for my gun appears to be .431.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Jim Taylor is one of the very good sources of knowledge on cast bullets. Thanks for that link!

[Tokarev]

They seem to be the Lyman Devestator design, which is what Matts market as well.

Yes. The GT and Matt bullet appear to be the same, or very similar, mold.

Only reason I chose the GT was price.


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[Tokarev]

255 cast hollow point in gel. 44 Mag velocities.

https://youtu.be/Ucb75YccBrQ

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[entropy]

Got my supply of cast bullets on the bench. Now to run up some loads.

The HP will likely get the Unique, the 250gr Keith the 2400.

I ordered up some of the Montana for the .357 as well...2400 those too.

[Malamute]

The conventional wisdom that a bullet being soft causes leading is pretty well shot apart by a bunch of guys (including at least one long time industry giant) over at the Cast Boolit Forum (misspelling intentional). What they've shown is that bullets that don't fit the cylinder throats because they are undersized and/or improperly lubed is what causes leading. They cast and size revolver bullets to fit those throats and get great results. Another member has a business of reaming and honing those throats to proper and consistent diameters as most factory jobs at this are mediocre to poor. Interesting place and lots to learn from another part of the handgun world.

John Linebaugh has mentioned he thought most cast bullets were too hard also. And didnt have very good lube.

[entropy]

Tok,

Did you ever experiment with those 240gr wide meplat/flat points? Seems like those would make some ppretty good multi-purpose rounds as well.

[Tokarev]

Tok,

Did you ever experiment with those 240gr wide meplat/flat points? Seems like those would make some ppretty good multi-purpose rounds as well.I tried a few of the CBP 260gr that a friend gave me. Accuracy was such that I gave up on them quickly.

Best accuracy has been with either jacketed or cast weighing generally 200 grains or less. The exceptions are the 220gr and 250gr hollowpoint bullets from GT and the True Kieth from Montana. But I ordered all these sized to closely match throats. That probably has more to do with it than anything.

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[entropy]

Thanks. Same here. Ordered them all .431, which seems to be the most accurate size for me. The 240’s I got were also from Montana. Not the cheapest, but holy cow...they look like machined solids! Loading them today. Shoot them next week. Will report back.

[entropy]

24522

Loaded up and ready.

[Lester Polfus]

24522

Loaded up and ready.

Almost too pretty to shoot.

[willie]

From a perfectionist old fuddy duddy with a hall monitoring mentality...they look great.

[entropy]

Thanks. A bit of ordorless mineral spirits in the media, akong with the Nu Finish, does wonders.

The wadcutters and HPs are a spread of Unique. The Keith’s are a spread of 2400.

Hopefully next week put them past the LabRadar and see how the print. Then go from there.

[Tokarev]

Looks like big ol' gaping hollowpoint GT's in there.

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[Tokarev]

Any update for us?

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[entropy]

Yep. They’re sitting on the bench in the same exact spot they were last week!

Life, work, more life, just got in the way. Hopefully within the next few days.

[Crazy Dane]

I finally got a day that I did not have to be somewhere or go do something so my son and I were able to get some rounds through the Ruger. It was cold and we had a heavy overcast on Saturday but we made a good day out of it anyway. We shot the Keith and the OWC bullets from Montana Bullet over 2400, I will put numbers below. All of our groups from the bench were 2.5 inches or less with a clean gun. It doesn't take much fouling for the groups to start opening up on this gun, around 30 is when I start noticing. Round count as of Saturday is 200 Keith style bullets, 100 of the OWC, 50 of the CCI Blazer 200 grn GDHP and 2 shotshells I loaded for a total of 352 rounds. We were having so much fun I failed to get photos of our handy work, my son did get one photo of a group he shot because he got one "dead center" I believe this is the OWC over 14 grns of 2400. For reference, the bull is 2.5 x 3.5 inches to the outside of the black.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2s6v594.jpg

Shiny ammo we shot!
http://i66.tinypic.com/sfa5fk.jpg

Both bullets were loaded to the crimp groove and had a moderate crimp from a Lee factory crimp die. Can I say crimp one more time.

Keith bullet 15.5 grains of 2400
10 rounds
AV 1094
ES 27
SD 16
Group 2.5"

Keith bullet 14 grains of 2400
10 rounds
AV 979
ES 74
SD27
Group 2.0"

OWC bullet 15.5 grains of 2400
AV 1126
ES 42
SD 10
Group 1.75"

OWC bullet 14 grains of 2400
10 rounds *The sky was getting dark with clouds and the crony failed to pick up 4 shots. All numbers figured using 6 rounds except group.
AV 1008
ES 25
SD 8
Group 1.25"
I will be loading a lot of this round. Mild recoil, very little fouling.

ETA I don't know why my pics rotated. First time ever.

[Zeke38]

Thank you FES 313 good work. I knew that GP had to shoot tighter than 2.5".

[Tokarev]

I love the old 44 Special and believe it is one of the forgotten greats.

What I'd love to see is some modern loading data and/or a SAAMI +P spec. Anyone who loads for the Special is already exceeding published data and using stuff verified by Keith, Taffin, Skelton, etc. It would be wonderful to see Hodgdon, Hornady, Alliant, etc further verify these hotter loads with pressure tested modern data.

Even a mild 5% pressure increase would no doubt do wonders.

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[45dotACP]

And I'm just sitting over here thinking that I do NOT need another revolver in an obscure caliber and thinking about when I can go hog hunting with my 8 3/8" model 57...

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[willie]

Tokarev, at least two Lyman reloading manuals have pressure tested loads. My older cast bullet handbook shows this information in c.u.p. units. It lacks this info for .44 spl loads. Oddly, some powders will produce lower pressures with low end .44 mag loads than are seen in standard velocity .38 spl data. You can extrapolate from these .44 mag loads to .44 spl loads. In the example of Keith's 429421, to keep oal within limits, this bullet must be crimped on the shoulder's front edge when it's used in magnum cases. But, in .44 spl cases it can be seated out further and crimped in the crimp groove. Thus internal case capacity is similar for both cases. The same situation exists for other Keith bullets. For example, when using the 168 gr 358429 in .357 mag cases, the case mouth must be crimped on the shoulder, but in .38 spl loads, it's crimped in the crimp groove. Keith designed many of his bullets before 1935 when the .357 mag was introduced. Smith cylinders are shorter than some other brands so the above crimping rules apply to S&W revolvers. I've forgot the exceptions.

I'll copy this data and send it to you by snail mail if you like, and of course I'll need your address. Though old, they will give you insight into pressure and powders.

[Malamute]

Tokarev, at least two Lyman reloading manuals have pressure tested loads. My older cast bullet handbook shows this information in c.u.p. units. It lacks this info for .44 spl loads. Oddly, some powders will produce lower pressures with low end .44 mag loads than are seen in standard velocity .38 spl data. You can extrapolate from these .44 mag loads to .44 spl loads. In the example of Keith's 429421, to keep oal within limits, this bullet must be crimped on the shoulder's front edge when it's used in magnum cases. But, in .44 spl cases it can be seated out further and crimped in the crimp groove. Thus internal case capacity is similar for both cases. The same situation exists for other Keith bullets. For example, when using the 168 gr 358429 in .357 mag cases, the case mouth must be crimped on the shoulder, but in .38 spl loads, it's crimped in the crimp groove. Keith designed many of his bullets before 1935 when the .357 mag was introduced. Smith cylinders are shorter than some other brands so the above crimping rules apply to S&W revolvers. I've forgot the exceptions.

I'll copy this data and send it to you by snail mail if you like, and of course I'll need your address. Though old, they will give you insight into pressure and powders.


Are you sure this applies to the 44 mag? Ive seen it with the 38 cal Keith/Lyman bullets, but the 44 mag Smith cylinders are longer than the N frame 357 cylinders. Ive loaded the Lyman 429421 bullets seated to the crimp groove in mag cases in the Smith 29s with no issues. The 357 loads intended for the N frame Smith 357s are the only ones ive seen that had to be loaded shorter with the Keith/Lyman bullets.

Ive long wondered why Smith didnt lengthen the cylinders in later 357/model 27/28s to the length they made them in the K and L frames. I guess they only were concerned with factory ammo and OAL.

As far as extrapolating data between 44 spl and mag, there seems on average to be about 1 grain difference in charge vs output in most loads that Ive been able to find comparable info on.

An NRA loading manual from the late 50s or early 60s had pressure tested loads by HP White laboratories in 44 spl that were interesting (of course stated in PSI but was actually copper crusher data and numbers I believe). Just the difference between the older balloon head type cases compared to the solid head cases was significant. This was the era that 44 spl data was in most manuals that would be considered too hot today. Keiths levels of loads were commonly used by many, with no special remarks as to what guns they should be used in. As far as I know the only guns available commonly then were Colt SAAs and Smith N frame guns, both long used by handloaders for heavy loads.

[Tokarev]

Tokarev, at least two Lyman reloading manuals have pressure tested loads. My older cast bullet handbook shows this information in c.u.p. units. It lacks this info for .44 spl loads. Oddly, some powders will produce lower pressures with low end .44 mag loads than are seen in standard velocity .38 spl data. You can extrapolate from these .44 mag loads to .44 spl loads. In the example of Keith's 429421, to keep oal within limits, this bullet must be crimped on the shoulder's front edge when it's used in magnum cases. But, in .44 spl cases it can be seated out further and crimped in the crimp groove. Thus internal case capacity is similar for both cases. The same situation exists for other Keith bullets. For example, when using the 168 gr 358429 in .357 mag cases, the case mouth must be crimped on the shoulder, but in .38 spl loads, it's crimped in the crimp groove. Keith designed many of his bullets before 1935 when the .357 mag was introduced. Smith cylinders are shorter than some other brands so the above crimping rules apply to S&W revolvers. I've forgot the exceptions.

I'll copy this data and send it to you by snail mail if you like, and of course I'll need your address. Though old, they will give you insight into pressure and powders.I probably have some of the same manuals showing some pressure data.

What I would like to see is data that's proofed and tested by manufacturers above the 15,500 psi limit. A true +P pressure spec.

45 Auto pressure max is 19k psi but it has been used in N frame sized guns since the beginning. Would 44SPL not still be safe if loaded to a new max of 19k?

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[Malamute]

I have a picture of the data from the old manual mentioned above if you want to see it. It of course cant be used without working up loads with todays powders, but gives a fair idea how the case and loads progress. One of the load programs may also be able to give some info on how the pressure plays out with current powders.

I think I can download it here and send it in a PM. Id prefer not top post it openly in case someone stumbled over it and took it as valid with current powders without question or realizing how dated it was.

[willie]

Malamute stated that he is able to load Lyman's 429421 using .44 mag cases and fire them in a S&W 29 without oal being excessive. So his experience shows that this bullet can be seated in the crimp groove and loaded in .44 mag cases and fired in the M29. My .44 mag cast bullets used in the Smith were the 215 gr gas checked 421215 projectiles. My load of 8.5 gr of Unique produced 1000 fps at 12,900 cup. Top cup for the 38 spl is about 15,900 according to my manual. I ran the "other loads", which I won't give, through Ruger Super Blackhawks.

Tokarev asked whether or not loading the .44 spl to a max pressure of 19k would be safe. In modern revolvers like Rugers, my opinion is that it would be safe and sensible.

[Tokarev]

Tokarev asked whether or not loading the .44 spl to a max pressure of 19k would be safe. In modern revolvers like Rugers, my opinion is that it would be safe and sensible.


The problem is there's no source for 19k psi loads. At least few that have been verified. Pearce did a great writeup with loads from mild to wild but I don't believe there was any mention made of how he came about his pressure specs.

I wonder how much effort it would take to get get a powder company to work up some tested data. It would be published as "modern guns only" not unlike what is done now with 45 Colt and 45 Colt "Ruger only" data.

Am I the only one who's interested in modern verified data?



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[willie]

Some computer software can provide insight into your query, but you probably already know that. Already you and Malamute may be the forum's leading members on working up .44/.45 loads. I hesitate to give too much advice. Though experienced in the area, my views and approaches to arrive at load objectives are dated. For example, I would select a desired velocity level and match it with my chosen bullet. Then I would work up loads using Unique, Herco, and IMR 4227 and chronograph as I went. My knowledge of existing pressure data and awareness of which powder would be subject to pressure spikes would guide me and keep me out of trouble. Plus, I can read pressure signs. When I reached acceptable accuracy and velocity levels in a load that I deemed safe, I would not care if pressures were, for example, 16,000, 17,000, 19,000, or 20,000 psi. In modern .44 spl cases and in a modern revolver, it would not matter(to me)if the pressure range fell within the interval of 16,000 to 20,000 psi.

I may have more spare time than you. Let me also research your question in order to locate new data.

[Tokarev]

Two sources for modern (aka hot) 44 Special data:

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ruger%20Lipsey%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

[Wayne Dobbs]

The problem is there's no source for 19k psi loads. At least few that have been verified. Pearce did a great writeup with loads from mild to wild but I don't believe there was any mention made of how he came about his pressure specs.

I wonder how much effort it would take to get get a powder company to work up some tested data. It would be published as "modern guns only" not unlike what is done now with 45 Colt and 45 Colt "Ruger only" data.

Am I the only one who's interested in modern verified data?



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I've also paid lots of attention to Brian Pearce's .44 Special data and wonder how he makes his various tiered pressure assertions. I use two loads in a 4" S&W 624 that are in his writings. Both use a 429421 or equivalent and both work great. The Skeeter load is classic at 7.5 grains of Unique and the one I call Brian's classic of 8.0 Power Pistol is simply excellent. Both will kill anything walking on this continent and do it well. Both give great accuracy, with an edge to the Power Pistol load.

I would like to know the actual pressures, even though both appear moderate.

[Tokarev]

It is interesting to me that the 44 Special is really a wildcat rather than a SAAMI cartridge. It seems most 44spl aficionados handload and those who handload do so to higher than SAAMI pressure.

I assume Mr Pearce is using computer software to get his pressure measurements although he could have access to a pressure test barrel. I wish he'd mention what he used.

Not that it matters, I suppose, as I've used several of this mid- and high-end loads without too much worry.

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[Malamute]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that actual electronic strain gauges are now priced in the range many people own them. I recall reading of people discussing them and their readings, but never delved into the details about them. They attach to the gun in question and are supposed to be able to measure the pressure of the load fired, unlike the old school pressure barrels with hole for the copper crusher. I dont think they require a dedicated pressure barrel for electronic instruments.


Edit: Like this https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

[Malamute]

Two sources for modern (aka hot) 44 Special data:

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ruger%20Lipsey%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

Thanks for posting these links, I havent seen them before and they answered some questions I had about various components and loads.

[Tokarev]

Edit: Like this https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

Something like that would be extremely handy, no doubt.

[Tokarev]

The Skeeter load is classic at 7.5 grains of Unique and the one I call Brian's classic of 8.0 Power Pistol is simply excellent.

I believe Taffin has a "Skeeteresque" load of a 240-250gr bullet over 7.5gr of Universal. Also a pretty good load.

Accuracy-wise I've had the best luck with my 3" Ruger using lighter bullets. Stuff like the 200gr and 210gr Gold Dot have been great. There have been a few exceptions but most 240gr jacketed and 240-250gr cast bullets have been rather disappointing.

Speaking of the 200gr Gold Dot; I've found that pushing this bullet to high velocity results in keyholing and outrageously poor accuracy. Not just in the Ruger but also in my 4" 629. I don't know how Pearce is getting his results unless Speer has made some changes to the Gold Dot over the years. Maybe softened the bullet up to get better expansion at lower Special velocity maybe.



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[Malamute]

Already you and Malamute may be the forum's leading members on working up .44/.45 loads.
.

I'm certain theres many people here with far more loading experience than I have. I find something that works and stop. There may be better stuff, but if Ive found something that works for me I just use it. Ive just recently begun trying some different stuff in 44 mag and spl.



I believe Taffin has a "Skeeteresque" load of a 240-250gr bullet over 7.5gr of Universal. Also a pretty good load.

Accuracy-wise I've had the best luck with my 3" Ruger using lighter bullets. Stuff like the 200gr and 210gr Gold Dot have been great. There have been a few exceptions but most 240gr jacketed and 240-250gr cast bullets have been rather disappointing.

Speaking of the 200gr Gold Dot; I've found that pushing this bullet to high velocity results in keyholing and outrageously poor accuracy. Not just in the Ruger but also in my 4" 629. I don't know how Pearce is getting his results unless Speer has made some changes to the Gold Dot over the years. Maybe softened the bullet up to get better expansion at lower Special velocity maybe.


In what few loads Ive tried Universal in, it seem to pretty much duplicate Unique in load data/performance.

Interesting about the experience with the 200 gr Gold Dots not shooting well. I asked about medium level 200 gr loads on the levergun forum and all responses I recall liked them in carbines and pistols, and often at higher velocities. I loaded a few 200 gr Speer non-Gold Dot JHP to try in 44 mag at 10 grs unique (Later figured out 9 probably would have done what I wanted) and Im intending to try some in 44 spl in medium level loads, about 1000 fps. I keep forgetting I have Universal, I should try similar loads to what Ive been doing with Unique with the 200s.

[Tokarev]

Don't get me wrong. The 200gr Dot shoots great at 44 Special speeds. It just doesn't like to be pushed to 1,000+ FPS in my experience.

The 210gr Dot, on the other hand, seems to be just as accurate but not too picky about higher speed. But I never could push the 210 fast enough to reliably expand in gel. Then again, I never played with it too much. One of these days I'll probably have to revisit.

[Malamute]

Made me curious, I was forgetting which bullets I had loaded, they are Hornady XTP 200s. My apologies for getting my wires crossed up. Shows how little Ive been shooting. :( I had been thinking of ordering a couple things to try, then saw the Hornadys at walmart for about what I could order them for, and no shipping, so...

The reports on leverguns were about both Gold Dots 200 and 210s and XTPs, all seemed to have plenty of positive comments, though its been a couple years since I posted the question I believe.

[Tokarev]

I had good accuracy with 180 and 200gr XTPs. I don't think I ever tried the 240gr in my Ruger.

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[entropy]

Finally got to do some shooting today. I fired the .44spl loads I had put together for testing. All from the 3” GP100:

240gr OWC BHN 15 Montana Bullets
6.5gr Unique (775fps avg)
7.0gr Unique (841fps avg)
7.5gr Unique (925fps avg)

255gr Keith 429421 BHN 15 Montana Bullets
14.5gr 2400 (935fps avg)
15.0gr 2400 (921fps avg ??)
15.5gr 2400 (970fps avg)
16.0gr 2400 (1042fps avg)

240gr RNHP No BHN (Cast 20:1) Matts Bullets
6.5gr Unique (758fps avg)
7.0gr Unique (825fps avg)
7.5gr Unique (877fps avg)

All were shot over a LabRadar at 15yds from a supported kneeling position. (I know...not the best. This was off a deck. Usual shooting spot still submergerd by 2’+ of snow.). Not the best groups. Previous work ups using 2400 and Oregon Trail 245gr SWC actually had better groupings but were shot from a table and rest. I did notice a bit of leading perhaps with the hollowpoints. Next round of testing will pay more attention and remember my magnifying glass.

24908

[entropy]

Hmmm...cant post two pics...???
24909

[Tokarev]

Here'd be a good one to try. Would we be able to get 900-950fps from a 3" barrel? That might be a little tricky but it would likely be a snap from a 5" gun.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=316

[entropy]

Had the opportunity to shoot a bit today. I put the previously loaded 250gr cast HP through some water jugs...yea I know... The 7.5gr Unique load opened up about the size of a quarter. Measure and weigh it once I get home. Had fun shooting a 2/3 IPSC steel plate at 100yds using 245/255 LSWC and 7.5gr Unique. Not as much drop as I thought. Basically hold center of the plate and....DONG! Steel is fun. This was all out of the 3” GP100.

A bit OT for the reloading forum, but exceptionally pleased with the Ruger thus far. Bought it as a woods gun, and its exceeded that. Carried it for two days while cutting wood on the back 40 and never noticed it, even wearing protective chaps. It has been my constant carry up north for almost a year now. Dinging that plate at 100yds boosted my confidence in that load a bunch. Would be nice to find a nice carry load. Using a DeSantis Thumbreak Scabbard. It’s what I had on hand and didnt expect a whole lot. It’s surprised me too. I dont think I could ask for a better holster for keeping the gun available but clear of the saw gear.

[eclecticmoose]

Had the opportunity to shoot a bit today. I put the previously loaded 250gr cast HP through some water jugs...yea I know... The 7.5gr Unique load opened up about the size of a quarter. Measure and weigh it once I get home. Had fun shooting a 2/3 IPSC steel plate at 100yds using 245/255 LSWC and 7.5gr Unique. Not as much drop as I thought. Basically hold center of the plate and....DONG! Steel is fun. This was all out of the 3” GP100.

A bit OT for the reloading forum, but exceptionally pleased with the Ruger thus far. Bought it as a woods gun, and its exceeded that. Carried it for two days while cutting wood on the back 40 and never noticed it, even wearing protective chaps. It has been my constant carry up north for almost a year now. Dinging that plate at 100yds boosted my confidence in that load a bunch. Would be nice to find a nice carry load. Using a DeSantis Thumbreak Scabbard. It’s what I had on hand and didnt expect a whole lot. It’s surprised me too. I dont think I could ask for a better holster for keeping the gun available but clear of the saw gear.

Thanks for your thoughts on the 3" GP100. This gun has intrigued me since it was introduced especially since I love my 4" .357 that I bought new in 2014.

I have really enjoyed this thread. Over the past few years Elmer Keith has been some of my favorite reading material. In my 6.5" S&W 29-2 I have used mild Unique loads with 240gr. LSWCs in both Special and Magnum cases to great effect on paper and steel targets. The Oregon Trail 240gr LSWC has been my go-to as I have not started casting yet. One beautiful aspect of these "mild" Unique loads is that somehow, in my revolver, they have the same POI at least to 25 yards as my H110/240g. JHP loads. With my 29-2. I use a six-o'clock hold on a 25 yard plate rack and this translates to a dead center hold using the top of the front sight blade on an IPSC target at 100 yards.

[entropy]

I agree. There are a number of threads on this subforum and the Revolver sub forum that read like an old dog-eared paperback. I just wish PB dodnt block all the great pics for me.

My GP doesnt seem to like jacketed bullets much. I’ve tried a few, but accuracy isn’t too hot. It could very well be that I havent quite found the powder/bullet sweet spot yet, but to be honest...why bother with that expense when I can shoot cast over Unique or 2400 and get exactly what I need?

I agree on the OregonTrail 240’s. There’s a new box of 500 sitting on the shelf right now along with the remainder of the first. A frequent stop Cabela’s up north has them as a stocking item, so they are handy to keep around. They have a rep for being hard, but shoot clean for me with no leading issues. For pure beauty and cast perfection, you cannot beat Montana Bullet Works though. They make a wonderful 255gr Keith that is about as close to perfection as you get with a cast bullet. Works of art. Same experience on the bullet drop. I had never shot these at 100yds (at most 50) and I had in my mind a Hail Mary football trajectory. Not the case at all.

The GP has been a pleasant surprise. Personally, I think Ruger revolvers border on butt-ugly compared to the smooth, sexy lines of a K or N frame Smith. However, I dont know if I’d have the cajones to carry a nice 4” M29 cutting wood and getting grundgy. I got home yesterday, dropped the trigger group from the GP, hit it with parts cleaner to get the sawdust out, oiled and reassembled. Cant beat that. I have a SP101 snub that has become my daily carry too...much for the same reasons. (Maybe because I’m getting older and lazy??)

Here’s another .44 option. i know Tok has experimented with similar from his. Below is a Matt’s Bullets 250gr Devastator style 250gr again over 7.5 Unique. This is into water jugs...which we all know about...but gives you an idea of perhaps what the slug is capable of.

25997

[Tokarev]

Here’s another .44 option. i know Tok has experimented with similar from his. Below is a Matt’s Bullets 250gr Devastator style 250gr again over 7.5 Unique. This is into water jugs...which we all know about...but gives you an idea of perhaps what the slug is capable of.

25997


The Montana Bullet Works bullets are pricey but they certainly are nice.

That Matt's cast hollow point looks like a big old wad of chewed bubble gum! I haven't used the Matt's. How does it compare to the GT?

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[entropy]

Havent tried the GT bullet. IIRC, they were about the same profile and similar BHN. Nothing compares to the Montana stuff though. It looks like they came out of a CnC machine instead of a mold. They dont offer any HPs though, only solids.

All loading/shooting/testing on hold here for about 3 weeks. Work, kids graduating, college registration, more work...lol. Will try to prep cases, maybe scout a few more ideas. Problem now is I have enough variety to keep me going...but only the time to pontificate. Lol

[HCM]

Anyone have a good “recipie” for duplicating the Blackhills 210 grain SWC?

This load: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/cowboy-ammo/44-special/

BH shows it at 700 FPS.

Looking at using these: https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lyman-429215-210gr-swc-gc/

[willie]

Try 4.5 grains of Red Dot.

[Russ856]

Good thread.

I’ve been using Alliant Power Pistol in .44spl for my Ruger Vaquero 44Mag, has a 3.5” barrel.
Shooting a 240g SWC that I pour from wheel weights, various brass, Winchester primer, and a 7.7gr charge I’m seeing 950 FPS average over the Chrony, accuracy is great and I believe it would suit my needs very well.
Reading this thread has me wanting to load some more, I have some Starline brass to fill!

[Shumba]

Anyone have a good “recipie” for duplicating the Blackhills 210 grain SWC?

This load: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/cowboy-ammo/44-special/

BH shows it at 700 FPS.

Looking at using these: https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lyman-429215-210gr-swc-gc/

5.5 grains of Unique is a good place to start.
Shumba

[Tokarev]

Been quite awhile since I messed with my GP. I had hoped Ruger would see enough sales interest to spark development of a medium frame LCR. The same basic design as the current gun just swelled up 5% or so to accept five rounds of 44 SPL and six rounds of 38/357. I assume such a gun would sell very well.

Surely Ruger has done the design development and knows how such a gun would need to be built to work. I guess it boils down to three things:

1 The design can't work for whatever reason

2 Ruger market research says it won't sell

3 Ruger market research says it will sell very well and will cut into SP/GP sales

To me the only real possibility is #2 since the current LCR works in 327 and 357. And #3 seems unlikey too. Sales are sales.

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[358156hp]

Here's another piece of the cast hollowpoint bullet puzzle for you. The video quality is a bit challenging, the guy who made the videos got beat up by youtube for the subject of the videos and has set out to find other ways to get the word out, including starting his own website & forums. I support his efforts and forward his work whenever I can. His efforts are ongoing, and you might also consider checking out his main site at: https://thereloadersnetwork.com/

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/authors/loads-of-bacon/powder-coated-cast-lead-hollow-point-bullet-testing/

[JTMcC]

Here's another piece of the cast hollowpoint bullet puzzle for you. The video quality is a bit challenging, the guy who made the videos got beat up by youtube for the subject of the videos and has set out to find other ways to get the word out, including starting his own website & forums. I support his efforts and forward his work whenever I can. His efforts are ongoing, and you might also consider checking out his main site at: https://thereloadersnetwork.com/

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/authors/loads-of-bacon/powder-coated-cast-lead-hollow-point-bullet-testing/


Those links look very interesting, to me. When I get time I'm going to dig thru them.
Thanks!

[Hambo]

Here's another piece of the cast hollowpoint bullet puzzle for you.

I used to have a Ross Seyfried article that was really down the rabbit of cast HPs. Using a HP mold, he poured only enough of a softer alloy to make the nose of the bullet. When it cooled somewhat he poured a hard alloy for the base. My description of the process is over simplified. The plan was for soft bullet expansion with hard bullet penetration.

[Baldanders]

Been quite awhile since I messed with my GP. I had hoped Ruger would see enough sales interest to spark development of a medium frame LCR. The same basic design as the current gun just swelled up 5% or so to accept five rounds of 44 SPL and six rounds of 38/357. I assume such a gun would sell very well.

Surely Ruger has done the design development and knows how such a gun would need to be built to work. I guess it boils down to three things:

1 The design can't work for whatever reason

2 Ruger market research says it won't sell

3 Ruger market research says it will sell very well and will cut into SP/GP sales

To me the only real possibility is #2 since the current LCR works in 327 and 357. And #3 seems unlikey too. Sales are sales.

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I'm betting #3 is a factor. A sale that kills a sale from a pre-existing line may be a wash or worse, especially considering the cost of tooling up for a new product line. Also, the fact that most revolver buyers are "Smith" or "Ruger" people (less so on P-f, and other such hardcorp types) makes cutting into anyone else's sales difficult.

Perhaps the equation will change, and I hope so, because a 3" 6 shot .357 medium frame LCR would be a swwweet carry gun.

[4given]

For my Ruger Blackhawk Lipsey flat-top 44 Special 4 5/8 bbl I load a 250 grain Keith over 7.5 gr Unique that runs about 930 FPS and the same bullet over 9gr of Power Pistol for a little over 1050 fps. Both pleasant to shoot and are great woods loads.

[4given]

Here are some good articles with some great 44 Special load data:

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ruger%20Lipsey%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ross%20Seyfried%20%96%20Lipseys%20Ruger%20Flattop% 20.44%20Special%20Bisley%20Revolvers.pdf

Enjoy

[Tokarev]

Here are some good articles with some great 44 Special load data:

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ruger%20Lipsey%2044%20Special.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Ross%20Seyfried%20%96%20Lipseys%20Ruger%20Flattop% 20.44%20Special%20Bisley%20Revolvers.pdf

Enjoy

It is quite interesting to me that there are so many published loads that exceed SAAMI spec and yet SAAMI has never done anything about it. The 44 Special really needs a modern "+P" spec.

[Crazy Dane]

I've kicked this one up from the grave because I am looking for a good general purpose load using coated bullets. Now that I am feeding 2 .44s, it is getting expensive feeding them lead from Montana Bullet Works. I have been looking at SNS casting and Missouri Bullet company for some ideas and am thinking about running something around 200grns around 900fps +/- on both. The primary purpose will be for making holes in paper and maybe a rouge bowling pin or 3. I will leave the hunting and woods carry duties to the Montana bullets. I have never had any dealings with coated bullets before so I am asking for any advice that can be offered, especially the 'don't do this' category. The powders I have to work with are 2400, Unique, Power Pistol and a dwindling can of HS7. I have good data for the Unique and Power Pistol.

Thanks, FES

Oh, P.S. Has anyone ever played with round ball loads? A .430 round ball on top of 5grns of Unique for bunny farts sounds fun. None of this 2 balls one shot bs.

[revchuck38]

FES313- I haven't used any bullets from SNS, but I've used coated bullets from Missouri Bullets in 9x19 and .38 Special with good results and wouldn't hesitate to use their .44 bullets.

7 grains of Unique gave me ~900 fps with a 200-grain Nosler JHP from my M21-4. I'd try that or a bit under to start and see how your gun likes it. I've loaded 200-grain RNFPs over (IIRC) 4.5 grains of Clays with similar results. Power Pistol might work too, I haven't tried it. I'd stay away from 2400 in a load that light, too much unburnt powder.

[LtDave]

I’ve shot a fair amount of the SNS coated 240’s in several .44 mags. They shoot fine, no leading at the moderate velocities I’ve been trying, roughly 850 to 1100 fps. Red Dot, Universal and Power Pistol have all worked well. Red Dot has been the most consistently accurate in all my guns. I’m using about 6.5 grains of Red Dot in my magnums. I haven't loaded any .44 specials in a while, but have seen people recommend Red Dot in the 5.0 to 5.9 range with a 240 grain lead bullet in the .44 special.

[4given]

In my Ruger Lipsey Blackhawk 44 Special, I like a hard cast 250gr Keith over 8.5 gr Power Pistol for a nice lower pressure 1000 FPS load as per the Brian Pierce article. More than enough poop for anything I will encounter in the woods here in Idaho.

[deflave]

In my Ruger Lipsey Blackhawk 44 Special, I like a hard cast 250gr Keith over 8.5 gr Power Pistol for a nice lower pressure 1000 FPS load as per the Brian Pierce article. More than enough poop for anything I will encounter in the woods here in Idaho.

That's how I roll as well.

Great utility.

[ssb]

The thread is a little old, but it seems to be the place to ask.

I recently picked up a Smith 624 and I would like to push 240-260gr SWCs at about 900-950FPS. To that end I have a bunch of Starline brass and some Rimrock 260gr Keith SWCs coming. My gun is a 6.5” model. I have Unique, Win 231, Titegroup, and CFE Pistol on hand. I would prefer to use Unique.

What I would like some assurance on is pressure. I cannot seem to get a straight answer from Google, but I gather the Skeeter load of 7.5gr Unique is probably in excess of the SAAMI spec for .44 Special. I also gather that the spec for this round is quite conservative so as to avoid blowing up guns of lesser construction. However, a lot of the discussion about these hotter loads being safe seems to involve heavily built Rugers.

My first question is whether these more stout .44s will be safe in a 1980s-mfg Smith and Wesson 624.

Second, to try to cheat my way there: I was planning on doing a ladder of 6, 6.5, 7, and 7.5 grains to find my velocity. Is that a safe assumption to get me to 900-950FPS with a 6.5” barrel?

[revchuck38]

That load of 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250-260-grain LSWC was developed in S&Ws. I'd be comfortable running it in a 624.

That said, I'd follow your plan of working up to it. You may find that a smaller charge would be more accurate.

[Lost River]

With a 6.5" barrel, it should not be too difficult to reach 900 FPS. Modern S&Ws are not weak guns. You are very unlikely to see any issues involving pressure that would be of concern in regards to the structural integrity of your N Frame.

[Malamute]

The thread is a little old, but it seems to be the place to ask.

I recently picked up a Smith 624 and I would like to push 240-260gr SWCs at about 900-950FPS. To that end I have a bunch of Starline brass and some Rimrock 260gr Keith SWCs coming. My gun is a 6.5” model. I have Unique, Win 231, Titegroup, and CFE Pistol on hand. I would prefer to use Unique.

What I would like some assurance on is pressure. I cannot seem to get a straight answer from Google, but I gather the Skeeter load of 7.5gr Unique is probably in excess of the SAAMI spec for .44 Special. I also gather that the spec for this round is quite conservative so as to avoid blowing up guns of lesser construction. However, a lot of the discussion about these hotter loads being safe seems to involve heavily built Rugers.

My first question is whether these more stout .44s will be safe in a 1980s-mfg Smith and Wesson 624.

Second, to try to cheat my way there: I was planning on doing a ladder of 6, 6.5, 7, and 7.5 grains to find my velocity. Is that a safe assumption to get me to 900-950FPS with a 6.5” barrel?


Im certain the 1980s guns are built to better heat treat standards than the 1950s guns that Keith and many others were using for heavy loads before the 44 magnum came out. There were no guns coming apart that Ive heard of from his loads, though they probably arent the best for longest term longevity.

At the time they came out in the 80s "the word on the street" supposedly from factory sources was that they knew people were going to be shooting Keith type loads in them so they used the same materials and heat treat for cylinders as the model 29s. No concrete confirmation on that, but again, Ive not heard of anyone hurting one.

Ive shot some of the Keith loads in a 1980s blue 24, I dont recall the exact charge, its whatever the old NRA manual came up with as comparable to the older semi-balloon head cases with his load, but in solid head cases. I think they came up with 16.5 grs 2400 with the Lyman 429421 bullet at around 1200 fps, this all from memory. It spec'ed in the 20k+ psi pressure range, checked by the HP White lab, but I dont recall exactly where, I could look if anyone is interested. I have no qualms shooting those loads, but have little reason to since I have a 4" 29. I keep 6 in the belt when out walking around with the 24 since Im technically in grizzly country even at home, but dont go hang out where the bears do as much as I used to. They do in fact hit to the same point of impact as the 6 1/2gr Unique loads I normally have in the gun, as Keith mentioned his did with varying loads. I believe Dennis Hall shot a fair number of the Keith loads in his 1980s 624.

I dont think your going to bend or even begin to challenge that gun with the loads mentioned in your post.

[ssb]

Thank you!

[willie]

Hodgdon handles sales for Alliant, Winchester, and Accurate Arms powders. Their website will guide you. Unique is an Alliant powder. I urge you to consult vendors' data for reloading information and buy a recent manual too. Years ago some published data for Unique and 38 Spl actually resulted in 357 Magnum pressures. This example is merely one.

Unique is everybody's favorite powder and has been on the market since 1900. Recent findings show that Unique has a very high flame temp, and reloads with more than 7 grains will burn out the barrel throat if fired extensively. Consider 6.5 grains with your bullet to see what you get.

[revchuck38]

ssb - You might want to give CFB-Pistol a try. It’s about the same burn speed as Unique. I’ve had good results with it in .38 Special and .40 S&W. I haven’t tried it in .44 Special though.

[Jim Watson]

Hodgdon handles sales for Alliant, Winchester, and Accurate Arms powders. Their website will guide you. Unique is an Alliant powder. I urge you to consult vendors' data for reloading information and buy a recent manual too.

I do not see Unique or other Alliant powders on the Hodgdon site, just Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR, Accurate, and Ramshot.

The problem with published data is that there is no SAAMI .44 Special +P and everything is "Nitro for Black" level, topping out at 14000 psi.

Brian Pearce dreamed up some alleged 22000 psi .44 loads but I do not see where he said his source of pressure tests.
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/44-s-w-special-p

[willie]

I do not see Unique or other Alliant powders on the Hodgdon site, just Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR, Accurate, and Ramshot.

The problem with published data is that there is no SAAMI .44 Special +P and everything is "Nitro for Black" level, topping out at 14000 psi.

Brian Pearce dreamed up some alleged 22000 psi .44 loads but I do not see where he said his source of pressure tests.
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/44-s-w-special-p

You are correct. Hodgdon does not include Alliant data which are available on Alliant's site. The source for my pressure comments about Unique is a forum member on the cast bullet forum that I frequent. He has his own pressure testing equipment. Too, he worked on the ballistics side of the shooting industry. Outpost75 is another industry professional.

[revchuck38]

Alliant's web page is here. (https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/index.aspx&) Their .44 Special loads with Unique are here. (https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=32)

[Malamute]

Ive used Unique quite a bit since the mid 70s, Ive loaded more pistol ammo with it than any other powder, and other than a few boxes of Keith type higher end 2400 loads is the only powder Ive used in 44 spl. It has a reputation for being somewhat dirty, that may be partly carbon, and may be partly unburned powder. It burns cleaner in mid pressure range loads than lower pressure range loads. The newer version is supposed to be a bit better, but I dont think Ive loaded any yet. Unique tends to leave the forcing cone area a bit frosted looking, which is probably the higher flame temp. I havent noticed any actual detrimental affects of it, meaning the gun not able to function or perform as it had earlier in its lifetime, but it may bother some people.

When dad gave me his loading stuff there was a couple lbs of Clays Universal powder. I called the company and asked for equivalent loads to the Unique loads i was shooting, in each instance they gave me the same charge weight in Universal to achieve the same velocity level, so Ive just gone with that in my limited use of it, and I like it for the most part. If I were starting out today Id probably go with the universal and call it good, and ill probably buy it in the future when i need more powder in the Unique class.

[358156hp]

Try this, you're likely to find something useful. Use at own risk, and so forth, and so on, and scooby, doobie, doobie:). It may already be listed earlier in the thread, but I'm too lazy to read every post.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/

[Crazy Dane]

I do not see Unique or other Alliant powders on the Hodgdon site, just Hodgdon, Winchester, IMR, Accurate, and Ramshot.

The problem with published data is that there is no SAAMI .44 Special +P and everything is "Nitro for Black" level, topping out at 14000 psi.

Brian Pearce dreamed up some alleged 22000 psi .44 loads but I do not see where he said his source of pressure tests.
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/44-s-w-special-p


I have used the data from this article a lot to load for my GP100s. 2400 is my favorite powder to experiment with and I find that it is predictable and repeatable. Unique is easy, pick a load, go forth and prosper. These are the only 2 powders I stock* and use for straight walled pistol cartridges. I do keep a jug of W296 on hand if ever need magnum loads, if ever and Trail Boss for Powder puffs. My goal is a 250gn 429421 at 100 FPS in .44 Special.

CFE pistol runs very close to Unique but I could never find good accuracy with it.

HP-38 and HS-6 have been good for me but there isn't many experimenters using this and you are most likely be own your own creating +p loads. I have exceeded book levels but I don't feel comfortable sharing that data. It was easier to keep using 2400 and Unique than have the potential to screw-up badly.

* I plan to try BE-86 and H Universal to find a replacement for Unique as that supply seems to be nonexistent at this point.

[Tokarev]

H Universal to find a replacement for Unique as that supply seems to be nonexistent at this point.

A little bit of Universal data here, if you have not seen it already:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44spec.htm

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Crazy Dane]

A little bit of Universal data here, if you have not seen it already:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44spec.htm

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Thanks, I have all of Taffin's works on the .44s and .38/357 printed out in a binder.

[jtcarm]

I’m rediscovering my 24-3 after some extensive work by David Fink and experimenting with this Accurate mold:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-219A

I’m looking for between 900 & 1000 FPS.

So far promising results with Unique & HS6.

Right now I’m casting them with COWW + 2%, but once I find the right powder/charge, I’ll soften it with 50% pure lead. That should give a rivet effect, expanding to full-wadcutter diameter.

I went with the lighter bullet to mitigate recoil since I won’t be tackling anything bigger than feral hogs at 50 yards or less.

I used to hunt TX whitetails with full-house .44 magnums topped with an LBT 280-WFN. I quickly discovered it went though them like they were made of tissue.

All that speed & recoil is useless unless running an expanding bullet, or there’s a need for flat trajectory.

Elmer Keith’ cast his .44 SWCs using 16-1 alloy. At 9-10 BHN, it would be considered very soft by todays standards. They were so effective for him because at the speed he pushed them, they were expanding. The average commercial-cast .44 SWC isn’t going to expand, no matter how fast it leaves the barrel.

[okie john]

I’m rediscovering my 24-3 after some extensive work by David Fink and experimenting with this Accurate mold:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-219A

I’m looking for between 900 & 1000 FPS.

So far promising results with Unique & HS6.

Right now I’m casting them with COWW + 2%, but once I find the right powder/charge, I’ll soften it with 50% pure lead. That should give a rivet effect, expanding to full-wadcutter diameter.

I went with the lighter bullet to mitigate recoil since I won’t be tackling anything bigger than feral hogs at 50 yards or less.

I used to hunt TX whitetails with full-house .44 magnums topped with an LBT 280-WFN. I quickly discovered it went though them like they were made of tissue.

All that speed & recoil is useless unless running an expanding bullet, or there’s a need for flat trajectory.

Elmer Keith’ cast his .44 SWCs using 16-1 alloy. At 9-10 BHN, it would be considered very soft by todays standards. They were so effective for him because at the speed he pushed them, they were expanding. The average commercial-cast .44 SWC isn’t going to expand, no matter how fast it leaves the barrel.

I agree 100% with your powder choices and your logic on external and terminal ballistics, and that mould looks ideal for the purpose as well. In reference to internal ballistics, I'd use the softer bullet for load work if you can. The results you get between it and the harder one may be different.

Also, pics of the revolver and a detailed description of the work? I'm not seeing them...


Okie John

[Malamute]

I’m rediscovering my 24-3 after some extensive work by David Fink and experimenting with this Accurate mold:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-219A

I’m looking for between 900 & 1000 FPS.

So far promising results with Unique & HS6.

Right now I’m casting them with COWW + 2%, but once I find the right powder/charge, I’ll soften it with 50% pure lead. That should give a rivet effect, expanding to full-wadcutter diameter.

I went with the lighter bullet to mitigate recoil since I won’t be tackling anything bigger than feral hogs at 50 yards or less.

I used to hunt TX whitetails with full-house .44 magnums topped with an LBT 280-WFN. I quickly discovered it went though them like they were made of tissue.

All that speed & recoil is useless unless running an expanding bullet, or there’s a need for flat trajectory.

Elmer Keith’ cast his .44 SWCs using 16-1 alloy. At 9-10 BHN, it would be considered very soft by todays standards. They were so effective for him because at the speed he pushed them, they were expanding. The average commercial-cast .44 SWC isn’t going to expand, no matter how fast it leaves the barrel.

Id guess Keiths bullets were not expanding, he often commented about the very good penetration on large animals, including shooting large bulls in the forehead and the bullets travelling back into the neck bones. I believe much of the effect on game is the large flat point. Having shot a few things with them, they cause bruised and bloodshot meat away from the entry hole an inch or more.

Im not sure modern tests reveal all aspects of the bullets effect on live tissue. people that have used dead animals to recreate shot effects they had seen on live animals report that even only dead an hour or two the effect is noticeably different than the wounds they saw on live animals. The testing media we have today is pretty good, but still not exactly like live tissue.

I think you will find a Unique load at around 8 to 8 1/2 grs for the 1000 fps slot. Im interested what you end up with for charge and velocity. I shoot mainly 9 grs Unique in the 44 mag, I was intending to make the 1000 fps point, Ive never chrono-ed them but available info suggests its close. Its a very good general purpose load, noticeably flatter shooting at 300 yards than the 44 spl loads at 800-850 fps with the same bullet. I havent yet but want to make a 44 spl load et the same velocity with same bullets.

Im tending towards lighter bullets in 44 recently. Im going to try the Lyman 429215 mold. With the number of results of shooting deer with 44-40 200 gr black powder loads at 1250-1300 fps and shooting all the way through normally, Im thinking thats enough bullet for most things Id shoot below being in the grizzly mountains task. Even at the lower velocity of the 44 spl, 850-1000 fps range, I think its capable of taking care of most needs.

John Linebaugh commented a number of times that he felt most commercial cast bullets were too hard. Besides the potential of breaking up more (brittle) on large bones, which he said he had reports of from his correspondents, he felt they leaded the bore more often than a medium hardness bullet.

[jtcarm]

A little bit of Universal data here, if you have not seen it already:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44spec.htm

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Beware the H4227 data. That powder is discontinued and the IMR flavor is not a grain-for-grain equivalent.

[jtcarm]

I agree 100% with your powder choices and your logic on external and terminal ballistics, and that mould looks ideal for the purpose as well. In reference to internal ballistics, I'd use the softer bullet for load work if you can. The results you get between it and the harder one may be different.

Also, pics of the revolver and a detailed description of the work? I'm not seeing them...


Okie John

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?56910-Finally!&p=1474083#post1474083