USPSA Production rules change

[archangel]

Kinda surprised this wasn't already posted.

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20180209%20Minutes.pdf
https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20180209%2017b%20Change%20Log%20App%20D4.pdf

(you may need a login to view those)


So, what happened was, at the last BOD meeting:

"A firearm from the Production list was provided to the group for an indefinite period of time. Included in the group of 12 attendees were: DNROI, a Range Master, and 9 certified CRO or RO. 2 of the 12 answered correctly to whether or not the firearm was in compliance with the Production Division rules, yet no one correctly identified why. Several reviewed factory images of the firearm from the internet. A second firearm was provided, with an obvious external feature difference. The group still could not determine which firearm was legal per the Production Division appendix."


So, obviously, the rules had gotten too convoluted, and needed to be fixed.

After going through the Production rules line by line, they issued a change log that included, among other things, this:

"21.6 - Exchange of minor External components: Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts." *



I suspect that this will make some people very happy, some people very angry, and either way Apex sales will go up.





*(The new rules do not go into effect until, if I'm reading things right, May 9th.)

[Peally]

We all bitched about it and derailed the thread on Doodie ;)

[Zincwarrior]

For the hacks and slack jawed yokels like myself, can you elaborate on what that means?

[Peally]

Some aftermarket external modifications will be allowed. It's controversial, there's some logical leaps involved in the reasoning behind it.

[archangel]

Previously only very limited modifications were allowed in Productions. You could replace the externally visible parts only with OEM parts, or OEM parts from another Production legal gun (ie, you could put an extended mag release from a glock 34 on a glock 17)


Now they are saying that any of those parts (Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors) can be replaced with anything we want, including aftermarket parts.

Pretty far away from being "production" (ie off the shelf) guns, but I understand why they did it from a "we have to be able to enforce the rules" standpoint.

[Zincwarrior]

Previously only very limited modifications were allowed in Productions. You could replace the externally visible parts only with OEM parts, or OEM parts from another Production legal gun (ie, you could put an extended mag release from a glock 34 on a glock 17)


Now they are saying that any of those parts (Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors) can be replaced with anything we want, including aftermarket parts.

Pretty far away from being "production" (ie off the shelf) guns, but I understand why they did it from a "we have to be able to enforce the rules" standpoint.

So it would be similar to combining ESP and SSP in IDPA, or permitting a "Lite" race gun?

[Sal Picante]

Some aftermarket external modifications will be allowed. It's controversial, there's some logical leaps involved in the reasoning behind it.

Honestly, here in the states, where hardly anyone runs a "stock gun", I think this was inevitable...

The reality is that a minor 9mm guns that are lightly customized aren't limited guns or open guns and almost every enthusiast has a somewhat tuned blaster...

[Clusterfrack]

Going from +2 to +4 oz above published OEM weight is another important rule change. I'm pleased with the new rules. If I was still shooting a p320, I could use my tungsten guiderod and still have weight to spare for aluminum base pads. Now, nothing really changes for me with the Shadow2 unless I wanted to replace the hammer or trigger.

[Lon]

You know what makes me happiest about this? I will be able to use my Gadget and not have to take it off for the match.

[nwhpfan]

For the hacks and slack jawed yokels like myself, can you elaborate on what that means?

If you are shooting a CZ or Tanfoglio...keep doing what your doing buying those sinister custom shop guns with aftermarket hammers. No need to get a special permission slip.

If you're a cop, or have kids and are too broke to buy something better, or for some other reason still shoot a Glock....now you can do a few mods to put your gun on par with the metal guns :) You can use an adjustable trigger like an Apex or Zev. Since it's impossible to shoot fast with a Glock or control recoil because they are so light you can now melt a few fishing weights and stuff them in that grip opening (as long as it stays under 4 oz. over the stock weight). And the biggest competitive advantage....if you shoot a Glock you can now round out the area under the trigger guard to stop Glock knuckle.

"Production" Division now (essentially) means: DA/SA or striker, 10 rounds in a magazine, no comps, no dots, no magwells, no lightning of the slide....

[Peally]

Honestly, here in the states, where hardly anyone runs a "stock gun", I think this was inevitable...

The reality is that a minor 9mm guns that are lightly customized aren't limited guns or open guns and almost every enthusiast has a somewhat tuned blaster...

I don't, I can't think of many more boring ways to burn an afternoon than tinker with a handgun; just cleaning it is a chore. Doesn't matter though.


Time to Doodie this up.

The real issue is the logic/approach HQ used to justify the changes. We had full fledged cheaters and first DNROI issued conflicting edicts enabling their behaviour, then HQ used that as an excuse that the rules were far too complex, and tweaked the rules to be more favorable towards said cheaters.

The logical approach of penalizing or banning known cheating assholes (like any normal sport would have done) is apparently lost. With issues that actually need to be corrected this isn't a good look for the sport and I doubt the tweaks and under the table "clarifications" we've been suffering through will stop here. A person might get the suspicion that USPSA was more interested in desperate membership retention than it was enforcing the rules as they were plainly written.

I'm guessing most people have already been following the derp train behind this topic though. Hopefully we can waste less time with this shit now and fix our popper rules, our classifiers HHFs, and PCC's stupid tweaks (same classifiers but no weak hand allowed always makes me roll my eyes).

If it stays the way it is I think it'll be OK. If HQ decides to make another change in 3 months it might be time to consider shooting something else though. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, we've already been changing things way faster than they can be properly handled.

[littlejerry]

Ignoring the cheater history(and Peallys point makes sense) I don't have any issues with the change. It always irritated me that things like a Vickers mag release were illegal but a longer G34 release was allowed, and that $1800 "factory" race guns from Tangfo/CZ are kosher while a Glock with $100 of drop in parts (trigger, mag release) was a no go.

[olstyn]

On some level, if you're going to call it "Production," you almost might as well just say "no mods except sights," take the fancy CZ and Tanfo guns off the list, and be done with it. The more mods you allow, the farther from its name the division gets.

[joshs]

You know what makes me happiest about this? I will be able to use my Gadget and not have to take it off for the match.

There was always an allowance for aftermarket "firing pin retainers."

[joshs]

There was always an allowance for aftermarket "firing pin retainers."

This reminded me of when I first realized this rule existed in Production . . .

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[Bryan W]

Ignoring the cheater history(and Peallys point makes sense) I don't have any issues with the change. It always irritated me that things like a Vickers mag release were illegal but a longer G34 release was allowed, and that $1800 "factory" race guns from Tangfo/CZ are kosher while a Glock with $100 of drop in parts (trigger, mag release) was a no go.

This about sums up my view as well. Not a bid deal, IMO.

[Bucky]

The frame mods allowance is interesting. My Glock knuckle got so obnoxious, it was one of the reason I went in search of a different production platform. Now I have a Shadow 2, I don’t plan to change. I do want to convert one of my 34s to a Carry Optics gunsome day. Just need to figure out who to use to mill the slide.

[Jim Watson]

I can fix it. The PPC championships used to have a match in which the guns and ammo were issued on the firing line. Since the match was held at a police academy range, what you got was a well worn Model 10 and .38 RNL. I don't think they do that any more, but they have a Production division with a lot tighter specs than USPSA or IDPA.

[Artemas2]

A level playing field, production is not. A Glock is not a CZ is not a Beretta. I don't think most aftermarket parts will have a noticeable effect to the field anymore than different guns do.

[Gio]

The thing I'm most frustrated about is they stuck to the 10 round limit. This isn't single stack/revolver, and we're far past an assault weapons ban. I would much rather they just go to either 15-17 rounds OR a mag length limit (i.e. if the gun/mag fits in the box, fill it up.

[Peally]

No thanks, the limit is fine. We don't need production and Prod-10 (which would happen based on HQ's weird justification for not finally killing L10).

Some of us like stage planning and reloading ;)

[Sal Picante]

A level playing field, production is not. A Glock is not a CZ is not a Beretta. I don't think most aftermarket parts will have a noticeable effect to the field anymore than different guns do.

Yeah... Beretta's are THE WORST. Total disadvantage!

:rolleyes:

[Sal Picante]

No thanks, the limit is fine. We don't need production and Prod-10 (which would happen based on HQ's weird justification for not finally killing L10).

Some of us like stage planning and reloading ;)

I like that challenge too...

Personally, I kinda wish the divisions were more like: Lim10 (minor scoring), Limited Minor, Limited, CO, Open.

The stuff people do to the guns doesn't really matter, except to them, and the outcomes are still largely the same.

E.g. Gutt still shredded the hell out of everyone when he ran a GLOCK... (as me how I know)

[Sal Picante]

I don't, I can't think of many more boring ways to burn an afternoon than tinker with a handgun; just cleaning it is a chore. Doesn't matter though.


Ok... So I was wrong. LOL. You and Eric Kamps do the really stock, stock gun thing. A lot of dudes spend a lot of time tuning shit up, tho. I agree it doesn't matter overall, but may matter to them. I mean, there is a reason I like running a D-spring in my gun and skinny VZ grips...



Time to Doodie this up.

The real issue is the logic/approach HQ used to justify the changes. We had full fledged cheaters and first DNROI issued conflicting edicts enabling their behaviour, then HQ used that as an excuse that the rules were far too complex, and tweaked the rules to be more favorable towards said cheaters.

The logical approach of penalizing or banning known cheating assholes (like any normal sport would have done) is apparently lost. With issues that actually need to be corrected this isn't a good look for the sport and I doubt the tweaks and under the table "clarifications" we've been suffering through will stop here. A person might get the suspicion that USPSA was more interested in desperate membership retention than it was enforcing the rules as they were plainly written.

I'm guessing most people have already been following the derp train behind this topic though. Hopefully we can waste less time with this shit now and fix our popper rules, our classifiers HHFs, and PCC's stupid tweaks (same classifiers but no weak hand allowed always makes me roll my eyes).

If it stays the way it is I think it'll be OK. If HQ decides to make another change in 3 months it might be time to consider shooting something else though. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, we've already been changing things way faster than they can be properly handled.

I totally agree with this. The problem, again, was enforcement. It was impossible to find a "cheater" and, even then, did it really matter?

I SO wish they'd fix the popper rules...

[Bucky]

The thing I'm most frustrated about is they stuck to the 10 round limit. This isn't single stack/revolver, and we're far past an assault weapons ban. I would much rather they just go to either 15-17 rounds OR a mag length limit (i.e. if the gun/mag fits in the box, fill it up.

Until we eliminate ass-alt weapons bans at the state levels, we need to keep some of the limited cap divisions.

I know there is a state limit in effect now, but if you live in NJ and want to compete at your own Area 8 match in PA or VA, you're already limited to what you can shoot, unless you own mags out of state, or borrow mags (and pray they work).

[Bucky]

I SO wish they'd fix the popper rules...

What particular popper rule are you referring to?

[Zincwarrior]

The thing I'm most frustrated about is they stuck to the 10 round limit. This isn't single stack/revolver, and we're far past an assault weapons ban. I would much rather they just go to either 15-17 rounds OR a mag length limit (i.e. if the gun/mag fits in the box, fill it up.

Thats the whole point of Production-to compete with IDPA in that aspect.

[Zincwarrior]

I SO wish they'd fix the popper rules...

What would you change?

[Sal Picante]

Thats the whole point of Production-to compete with IDPA in that aspect.

... and I think that IDPA 10-round limit makes some sense in the context of that game where stages are capped to 18 rds.
It tests some reloads during field courses.

In a 10-rd limited division, it does the same, but it gets pretty contrived: race gear and belts with endless mag pouches, etc.
Telling a new guy that he needs 4 extra carriers and 3 extra mags is NOT competing with IDPA anymore, really...

[Clusterfrack]

I don't care about IDPA, personally. I like Production because it's a great game. I like the added emphasis on accuracy required by minor PF + 10 round mags. I like that striker and TDA guns can compete on a pretty level playing field. And I like that I don't have to use a 1911/2011.

[Peally]

Ok... So I was wrong. LOL. You and Eric Kamps do the really stock, stock gun thing. A lot of dudes spend a lot of time tuning shit up, tho. I agree it doesn't matter overall, but may matter to them. I mean, there is a reason I like running a D-spring in my gun and skinny VZ grips...



I totally agree with this. The problem, again, was enforcement. It was impossible to find a "cheater" and, even then, did it really matter?

I SO wish they'd fix the popper rules...

I don't know him personally but we're official dude-bros now. I meant "doesn't matter" as it's irrelevant to why I'm spittin' and ragin' at HQ; different springs or whatever is everyone's call on what they like. Totes legal and I have no issue with it (90% of our largely casual shooters negatively impact their guns versus help them with tinkering anyway).

I don't know that it was truly impossible to find cheaters, we're pretty self-policing with the rules (not just in production) and a few have been outed in the past. The cheater involved in hammergate sent an email straight to DNROI about his cheating, but how that was handled gave me a very sour opinion of USPSA's stability and sense. I honestly do not know what under the table contradictory rules an RO may pull out of his ass at a major now and that's disconcerting.




Really the rule tweak as it stands is fine. What HQ has been doing in general this last year is somewhat fucked up though. I wish there was a happy medium between breakneck changes without properly working through them and the comical wild incompetence we had a president ago.

RANT COMPLETE

[Sal Picante]

What would you change?

I'll let Peally explain it: NSFW, lot of doodie-realted BS. (http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5533-pooper-fucking/)

(I'm surprised that Peally has such a potty mouth... :rolleyes:)

Long and short:

Example 1:
You shoot a popper, dead center, and it doesn't fall. So you call for calibration. The RO shoots it and it falls.
You passed chrono, you hit it dead center, etc. Did the act of shooting it alter the popper?

Example 2:
You shoot a popper, dead center, and it doesn't fall. There is complex activator sequence (swingers/movers/etc) - so, you pound the popper a few times and it does/doesn't fall over.
Since there are so many points at stake, you CAN'T just bail and call for calibration. If it goes down when the RO shoots it you get f'd.

People are saying that if a popper takes a good center hit, it should it just be something that is called as a reshoot if the popper didn't fall down... I don't disagree.

[Sal Picante]

I don't care about IDPA, personally. I like Production because it's a great game. I like the added emphasis on accuracy required by minor PF + 10 round mags. I like that striker and TDA guns can compete on a pretty level playing field. And I like that I don't have to use a 1911/2011.

This is what I really liked about Prod. Good test of plans, level-ish playing field, minor scoring. I love minor scoring.

[Peally]

I am a fun motherfucker on Doodie Project, be warned.

Some people have alcohol. Me? I need the internet to bring out my vibrant adult language and be an opinionated ass.

[AMC]

I'm one of those 'tards running a pretty much stock pistola. 9mm Sig 226....only change was Warren/Sevigny Fiber sight. But for me, it's also still about trigger time on the work model, so I stick to the 'one gun' thing. Do love me some CZ goodness, Though, and a P07 is probably my retirement gun.

On another note, my 14 year old is gonna start shooting Production with me. Think I'll put some LTT grips, a 14# hammer spring, Wilson Short Trigger, and a Wilson rear sight on my old 92G and let him shoot that. He'll have a nicer gun than me for now!

[Sal Picante]

I'm one of those 'tards running a pretty much stock pistola. 9mm Sig 226....only change was Warren/Sevigny Fiber sight. But for me, it's also still about trigger time on the work model, so I stick to the 'one gun' thing. Do love me some CZ goodness, Though, and a P07 is probably my retirement gun.

On another note, my 14 year old is gonna start shooting Production with me. Think I'll put some LTT grips, a 14# hammer spring, Wilson Short Trigger, and a Wilson rear sight on my old 92G and let him shoot that. He'll have a nicer gun than me for now!

No... Don't hamper him... Send me your 92G and buy him a popper gun! ;)

[AMC]

No... Don't hamper him... Send me your 92G and buy him a popper gun! ;)

Nope. :o. That 92G is like 1991 vintage. Among the first imprted into the country. It was my duty pistol for several years, after I finished probation and could carry a semiautomatic (back then we had an approved list, and the issued gun was a S&W M28). I am a middle of the pack USPSA shooter....couple of months back we had a new shooter running a Sig P320X5. He asked if the DA/SA was really hampering me. He had just missed several poppers and hit three no-shoots on his run. I told him, "Not as much as your finger seems to be hampering you." Had my kid working on basic manipulation skills with the Beretta...he said it feels a little big, but he can do it. Think the LTT grips and Wilson trigger will help that.

[Super77]

Does this mean I can run a Seattle Slug in my 34 ans shoot production?

[olstyn]

People are saying that if a popper takes a good center hit, it should it just be something that is called as a reshoot if the popper didn't fall down... I don't disagree.

Failing that eminently reasonable approach, I like the way an RO did it for me once at a L1 match where there wasn't calibration ammo available. (I lost, but felt that the process was 100% fair.) After unload/show clear on the stage, he had me stand where I was standing when I shot the offending popper, load a single round, and slowly and carefully fire a single shot dead center. (They're so much easier to hit that way! :p) The popper fell when I shot it with my ammo from my gun, so I could hardly complain about the mike on my score sheet. (It hadn't been painted after every shooter, so we couldn't definitively establish that the first hit was not an edge hit or a low hit.) That approach has the side benefit of not having to wait for the RM to show up, too.

[Zincwarrior]

... and I think that IDPA 10-round limit makes some sense in the context of that game where stages are capped to 18 rds.
It tests some reloads during field courses.

In a 10-rd limited division, it does the same, but it gets pretty contrived: race gear and belts with endless mag pouches, etc.
Telling a new guy that he needs 4 extra carriers and 3 extra mags is NOT competing with IDPA anymore, really...

You are telling me. I typically carry 5 plus the one in the pistol when I USPSA.

[Zincwarrior]

I'll let Peally explain it: NSFW, lot of doodie-realted BS. (http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5533-pooper-fucking/)

(I'm surprised that Peally has such a potty mouth... :rolleyes:)

Long and short:

Example 1:
You shoot a popper, dead center, and it doesn't fall. So you call for calibration. The RO shoots it and it falls.
You passed chrono, you hit it dead center, etc. Did the act of shooting it alter the popper?

Example 2:
You shoot a popper, dead center, and it doesn't fall. There is complex activator sequence (swingers/movers/etc) - so, you pound the popper a few times and it does/doesn't fall over.
Since there are so many points at stake, you CAN'T just bail and call for calibration. If it goes down when the RO shoots it you get f'd.

People are saying that if a popper takes a good center hit, it should it just be something that is called as a reshoot if the popper didn't fall down... I don't disagree.

I agree with those!

[olstyn]

You are telling me. I typically carry 5 plus the one in the pistol when I USPSA.

Yeah, I don't think anybody taking themselves seriously while shooting Production runs less than 4 carriers on their belt, and I see a lot of belts with 5 hanging on them. Single Stack is, of course, even sillier, not to mention Revolver. I know I've seen 8+ moon clips at least once.

[Clusterfrack]

5 mags on my belt plus one 11 round Barney mag.

[Bryan W]

Yeah... Beretta's are THE WORST. Total disadvantage!

:rolleyes:

Yeah they are horrible - BTW, I still have one of the E2s for you in Austin when you want it Les!

[Sal Picante]

Yeah they are horrible - BTW, I still have one of the E2s for you in Austin when you want it Les!

mmmmm

[Bucky]

While they’re at it, they should do away with the holster / mag pouch positioning rule. It’s pretty loosely enforced anyway.

[Lomshek]

I don't think most aftermarket parts will have a noticeable effect to the field anymore than different guns do.

This is true.

[Lomshek]

While they’re at it, they should do away with the holster / mag pouch positioning rule. It’s pretty loosely enforced anyway.

That's the easiest to be enforced and is just lazy RO'ing.

If someone's a brand new shooter and shows up with a not legally positioned but safe holster I'll have them move it if they can. If it's something like a holster with too much drop or whatever I'll explain to the new shooter what's wrong and how to fix it for the next match but allow them to shoot knowing that the new competitor will be so far back in the standings it won't matter and the holster legality won't affect that standing at all.

If USPSA wants to fix a holster rule it needs to be the insane allowance to sweep yourself on draw and holster.


10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7


5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:
5.2.7.1 A shoulder holster or “tie-down” rig (visible or otherwise),except as specified in Rule 5.2.8.
5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.
5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 3 feet from the competitor’s feet while standing relaxed,
5.2.7.4 A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger while holstered.

This is pretty clearly a safe, non-sweep version of the DOH holster.
23989

Ignoring the butt maybe being too low too this gun is clearly pointed inward toward the competitors leg and they'll sweep themselves on the draw and holster as many DOH holsters end up being especially if the shooter has a gut.
23990

[omahatrigger]

So with the new rule change and you can have aftermarket triggers now. Can you now change the trigger on your DA/SA pistol to SA only?

[Sal Picante]

So with the new rule change and you can have aftermarket triggers now. Can you now change the trigger on your DA/SA pistol to SA only?

No. Production is still "no single action only" pistols.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Personally I like the new rules, they simplify thingsfor new shooters and make sense for the American market where nearly every shooter modifies his gun in some way.

To counter the concern of productiom becoming Limited Limited, I would like to see minimum trigger pull tests. Something like a 3lb minimum for all trigger pulls would help restore the spirit of "production" class.

Of course that will never happen since all tye guys who spent $1500 on shadow customs and an extra $300 on a Glock trigger would be too pissed off.

[GJM]

Personally I like the new rules, they simplify thingsfor new shooters and make sense for the American market where nearly every shooter modifies his gun in some way.

To counter the concern of productiom becoming Limited Limited, I would like to see minimum trigger pull tests. Something like a 3lb minimum for all trigger pulls would help restore the spirit of "production" class.

Of course that will never happen since all tye guys who spent $1500 on shadow customs and an extra $300 on a Glock trigger would be too pissed off.

Then there would be an argument as to where on the trigger, bottom or middle, you measure the three pound limit at.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Then there would be an argument as to where on the trigger, bottom or middle, you measure the three pound limit at.

That was my first thought too.

However, in IPSC they have a 5lb limit for Stock class, and I haven't heard of any issues with that.

I would say to just take a 3lb weight, hang it from a metal l-shaped rod, and let the shooter decide where on the trigger to put the rod.

[cheby]

Personally I like the new rules, they simplify thingsfor new shooters and make sense for the American market where nearly every shooter modifies his gun in some way.

To counter the concern of productiom becoming Limited Limited, I would like to see minimum trigger pull tests. Something like a 3lb minimum for all trigger pulls would help restore the spirit of "production" class.

Of course that will never happen since all tye guys who spent $1500 on shadow customs and an extra $300 on a Glock trigger would be too pissed off.

5lb limit in IPSC is for the first pull only. So all the DA guns are good to go including the "shadow custom". Glocks with aftermarket parts, on the other hand, is a different story. That is why striker fired guns are not really popular in IPSC. I agree though that the limit on the first pull would be good for the sport. It is not an issue to measure the pull weight in IPSC. It is not going to happen in the US though

[cheby]

Here is how to measure the trigger weight per IPSC rules (Appendix E4a)

When a minimum trigger pull is required by a Division, handguns will be tested as follows:
1. The unloaded handgun will be prepared as if the handgun is ready to fire a double action shot;
2. The trigger weight or scale will be attached as closely as possible to the center of the trigger face;
3. The trigger of the handgun must either:
(a) Raise and hold a 2.27 kg (5 lbs.) weight when the muzzle of the handgun is pointed vertically skywards
and the handgun is gently raised; or
(b) Register not less than 2.27 kg (5 lbs.) on a scale using the procedure specified by the Range Master;
4. One of the above tests will be conducted a maximum of 3 times;
5. If the hammer or striker does not fall on any 1 of the 3 attempts in 3(a) above, or if the scale registers not less
than 2.27 kg (5lbs.) in 3(b) above, the handgun has passed the test;
6. If the hammer or striker falls on all three (3) attempts in 3(a) above, or if the scale registers less than 2.27 kg
(5lbs.) in 3(b) above, the handgun has failed the test and Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply

[Peally]

If we can avoid changes let's stick with what we have.

[Zincwarrior]

That was my first thought too.

However, in IPSC they have a 5lb limit for Stock class, and I haven't heard of any issues with that.

I would say to just take a 3lb weight, hang it from a metal l-shaped rod, and let the shooter decide where on the trigger to put the rod.

That would be a problem for the Walther Q5 and S&W Pro.

[olstyn]

No. Production is still "no single action only" pistols.

At least as far as I could tell in a quick perusal of Appendix D4, the rules only say that in Production, guns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, not that single action guns aren't allowed. I guess that must be the loophole used to justify letting the PPQ, VP9, etc. onto the Production gun list. No external hammer = SAO is just fine. :p

[TicTacticalTimmy]

To give ground to striker guys I would have it be a trigger pull test for SA mode in TDA guns, ignoring the DA, and have it at a low weight such as 2.5 or 3 pounds.

I don't doubt it would provide new challenges and issues, but those would surely be no worse than, say, everything that goes into making power factor.

I think it is a reasonable trade off for ensuring that the spirit of production remains intact. Furthermore, from the RO perspective, this added task of ROs is offset by how they no longer have to pay close attention to external mods. Surely doing the above trigger pull test is easier and more straightforward than inspecting hammers , triggers, inside of magwells, and so forth?

[Darth_Uno]

I’m more excited about the new rules in Carry Optics. No comps which I don’t run anyway, or grip chops so I can’t run my chopped 17 ☹️.

I’d say I haven’t shot a match in a couple years, but now that l look at the calendar it’s been about 8 or 9.

[45dotACP]

At least as far as I could tell in a quick perusal of Appendix D4, the rules only say that in Production, guns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, not that single action guns aren't allowed. I guess that must be the loophole used to justify letting the PPQ, VP9, etc. onto the Production gun list. No external hammer = SAO is just fine. :p

Heh...beat me to it. Anybody who has ever fired a Sig 320 with a competition trigger by someone like Bruce Gray will have a hard time saying it's not SAO

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[DpdG]

I think most governing bodies treat striker fired, without regard to fully vs. partially tensioned, as an independent type of action separate from single or double action. I can only imagine how hard it would be to legislate the various degrees of tensioning, especially in light of the various aftermarket offerings that drastically alter the characteristics of the host pistols.

Regarding USPSA Production- I'm a hobbyist at best, so I like the "run what ya brung" aspect that seems more in line with what many CCW users carry. I had to buy another factory stock grip frame for my P320 when I started competing, as my carry/practice one had been modified slightly beyond the allowable limits of the old rules. Nothing crazy mind you, just an undercut trigger guard and some minor re-profiling around the mag well.

[olstyn]

I can only imagine how hard it would be to legislate the various degrees of tensioning

Agree to disagree - IMO it's pretty simple:

If pulling the trigger causes significant energy to be stored in the striker and the pistol has the same trigger pull for every shot, it's DAO.
If there's a DA-->SA transition, it's DA/SA. (Obviously very few striker guns fall in this category, but there *are* a few.)
If it's fully tensioned or 99%+ tensioned with weird sear geometry like a P320 that causes the striker to move rearward a tiny distance before releasing, it's SAO.

[DpdG]

In principle I agree, especially with regard to the P99 (and copies) that can be decocked. The problem with differentiating partially vs fully tensioned is they all generally have the same or similar external controls, and manufacturers often classify all DAO even if fully tensioned (for agency policy reasons).

Finally, with the proliferation of fully tensioned carry/duty guns, I don’t think bumping those designs automatically to Limited would be well received participation-wise. I know I wouldn’t want to shoot a factory stock M&P 9mm in Limited if I wanted to be anything resembling competitive, plus putting hem in Limited feels outside the spirit of the classes.

[olstyn]

Finally, with the proliferation of fully tensioned carry/duty guns, I don’t think bumping those designs automatically to Limited would be well received participation-wise. I know I wouldn’t want to shoot a factory stock M&P 9mm in Limited if I wanted to be anything resembling competitive, plus putting hem in Limited feels outside the spirit of the classes.

You're not wrong, and really I'm not arguing that they should be bumped to Limited so much as that we should just be honest about what's going on. :)

[Tom Duffy]

When I shoot Steel Challenge, I mostly shoot revolver. On occasion I shoot an HK with LEM trigger as a production gun. Where does that stand as legal/illegal per USPSA rules?

[Sal Picante]

At least as far as I could tell in a quick perusal of Appendix D4, the rules only say that in Production, guns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, not that single action guns aren't allowed. I guess that must be the loophole used to justify letting the PPQ, VP9, etc. onto the Production gun list. No external hammer = SAO is just fine. :p

Yeah - it doesn't specifically say SAO.

The kicker is that holstering a hammer-fired single action gun with one in the chamber, hammer down (off safe) is a grounds for a DQ ... Some of the other conditions are in section 8(? - I think?)

So... the stage brief specifies if the firearm is loaded and then section 8 (or whatever) specifies the condition... Therefore, hammer-fired single actions can't possibly comply in that case...

Interesting call on some of the other SF guns.

[Sal Picante]

...I like the "run what ya brung" aspect that seems more in line with what many CCW users carry.

Limited Minor is the true "run what ya brung" division... :)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One day - there will be a category called - OUT OF THE BOX FOR THE BASE MODEL! As far has 10 round limits in various disciplines, they are a pain and exist to cater to states with bans. But they make me practice reloads and that's ok. I do think it is funny that we plan our execution of a stage around a reload. Will that happen on the street?

[Peally]

Surely you're not serious.

[Sal Picante]

Surely you're not serious.

He's still hung over from the weekend...

[DpdG]

Limited Minor is the true "run what ya brung" division... :)

Agreed- I showed up at a special classifier last fall and realized I’d forgotten my Production belt holster and mags. I ended up shooting the whole thing with my carry AIWB rig concealed and a single spare mag. It was fun but it felt like minor scoring was a handicap compared to the standards built around major scoring. For that reason, I wish Limited Minor was a stand alone division. As long as Limited includes both Major and Minor as one class, people new to the sport will feel like they’re trying to compete with people/equipment they have no business being around.

[Peally]

They're not going to be even remotely competitive regardless, it's all about safety and fun when you're new.

[Bucky]

Limited Minor is the true "run what ya brung" division... :)

One of my wife's carry is a GLOCK 23C with laser, so it's Open for her. ;)

[DpdG]

They're not going to be even remotely competitive regardless, it's all about safety and fun when you're new.

Completely agree. I was talking about “feels” as opposed to competitive.

Circling back to the new Production rules- I like them. It should be simpler to figure out what class one belongs in if the hardware is already in hand. Let people decide later on how much they want to focus on the Indian (production) and how much they want to chase the arrow (limited or....). Finally, it seems (again I’m a hobbyist at best) to simplify the MD/RO task of checking for rules compliance.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Surely you're not serious.

Don't call me Shirley! I'm not renewing Serious Radio for my car. I propose a match where everyone pays enough to get a Glock 19 and the match director goes to Academy and buys them from the store. Then, you shoot the match with the gun that common folk of ignorant gun users might use.

Oh, the TV is going to explain why we have the 2nd Amend. wrong and we have no right to assault rifles. I'd better change the channel to the Cartoon Network.

[olstyn]

It was fun but it felt like minor scoring was a handicap compared to the standards built around major scoring. For that reason, I wish Limited Minor was a stand alone division.

Minor is a disadvantage, and the game was designed that way intentionally, but OTOH, you can stuff more 9mm in a mag of any given length than you can .40, so it can sometimes be offset by not having to reload as often, or having more choices of where to reload available to you. On the other other hand, you could just not worry about it and have fun, and on the other other other hand, you could always shoot Production or CO where everybody scores minor. Also, you could just emulate Gabe White and shoot a ton of alphas very quickly. Plenty of options. :)

[Peally]

Minor is less a disadvantage than it seems if you're nailing 90% A's and can run a little faster than the other guy. You lose points but it's nothing mind-game ass pinching can't solve.

[Bucky]

Minor is a disadvantage, and the game was designed that way intentionally, but OTOH, you can stuff more 9mm in a mag of any given length than you can .40, so it can sometimes be offset by not having to reload as often, or having more choices of where to reload available to you. On the other other hand, you could just not worry about it and have fun, and on the other other other hand, you could always shoot Production or CO where everybody scores minor. Also, you could just emulate Gabe White and shoot a ton of alphas very quickly. Plenty of options. :)

In single stack, where the difference between major and minor is 8 and 10 rounds respectively, many times there is an advantage to shooting minor. For limited, where the difference is 21 versus 23 rounds, very rarely will there be and advantage to minor.

[Quantrill]

Minor is less a disadvantage than it seems if you're nailing 90% A's and can run a little faster than the other guy. You lose points but it's nothing mind-game ass pinching can't solve.

Dennis Rodman reference?

My 12 year old son shoots limited minor. I’m trying to figure out the best way to translate this advice for him.

You’re a funny mo-fo

[Peally]

I mean what I mean man, you want to make a friend stop thinking about a stage plan just go and pinch his ass for some WTF factor :D

[Quantrill]

Ha!
I’ll tell him that.
The dudes he usually squads with at our club are mostly open, in more ways than one :D just kidding.

[Zincwarrior]

One day - there will be a category called - OUT OF THE BOX FOR THE BASE MODEL! As far has 10 round limits in various disciplines, they are a pain and exist to cater to states with bans. But they make me practice reloads and that's ok. I do think it is funny that we plan our execution of a stage around a reload. Will that happen on the street?

Thats why I carry a shot timer at all times. I can't do anything without the beep. Remember competition will you kilt! :rolleyes:

[CraigS]

We shoot a local Steel Challenge w/ our Beretta EliteIIs. A while ago I had built up a thumb rest w/ JB Weld on a standard plastic grip. I don't use it any more but it seems to really help my wife. I recently came across the new USPSA Production rules and figured I should see if this is legal even though I doubt anyone would call her on it. So I see this and figure it might be OK.
" 21.4. Grip modifications such as, but not limited to, undercutting/smoothing the trigger guard, adding or removing finger grooves, or adding stippling, grip tape, or checkering are allowed."
I figure adding finger grooves would require adding material but maybe they figure it only means removing material like w/ a round file.
Then I see this;
" 22.2. Non OFM grip modifications (addition or removal of material) that provide function, such as a beavertail or thumbrest, or prohibited." So maybe not OK. What is "OFM"? I first thought it was a typo for OEM but it appears quite a few times so they can't all be typos. Also, shouldn't it say ...are prohibited... instead of ...or prohibited...? Typo?
If this is illegal, I have a pair of wood grips that have somewhat of a thumbrest. Would they be legal?

[Norville]

OFM = original factory manufacturer I believe. Why they didn’t use the more common OEM is beyond me.

[Lomshek]

I have a pair of wood grips that have somewhat of a thumbrest. Would they be legal?

I don't believe so. My reading of it is the grips need to be factory grips or close reproductions of factory grips such as the gun came with. A target style grip (even if made by Beretta) is not what the Beretta Elite 2 came with so would not be allowed.

[CraigS]

I was afraid that might be the case. Guess I better find something else for her.

[RJ]

I must have been living under a rock when this thread was started.

Somebody talk to me like I’m a two year old: Do these rules changes announced Feb ‘18 mean that I can put in a (say) Apex trigger in my G19.5 and still shoot USPSA Production?

[flyrodr]

Rich, not an USPSA shooter, but was on the Apex Tactical site yesterday and saw this note under some Glock G5 trigger kits:

NOTE: As of May 15th, 2018, this trigger kit is legal for use in USPSA's Production Division (please see Appendix D4, section 21.6, of the USPSA Production Division rules).

[GJM]

Ever since USPSA named Dremel as the official sponsor of Production class, you can do about anything in Prod except load your magazines to adult strength.