Parkland Florida School Shooting

[Doc_Glock]

I have not seen a thread started. 16 dead.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/florida-high-school-shooting/index.html

ETA NPR link as they seem to do news the best IMO.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/14/585835311/shooter-and-possible-injuries-reported-at-broward-county-fla-high-school

[Hambo]

Broward Sheriff just said 17 dead, more in trauma units.

[StraitR]

Yeah, sucks. Suspect in custody, which makes it a little different than most mass shootings. I was hoping to see the number stay much lower. AR-15 "style" rifle reportedly used, but you know how that goes.

Prayers out for the families, the wounded, and all involved. As a father of two little ones, one that I drop off at school each day, it just breaks my heart.

[BobLoblaw]

So ridiculous that this keeps happening. The signs don’t fucking work.

[Chance]

Heard on NPR, suspect was not currently enrolled in school.

NPR also said a Florida congressman had recently visited the school and when interviewed, said, "Security seemed great." Probably BS news noise, but reporting so hindsight is 20/20.

Disclaimer: unconfirmed info jostling around.

[blues]

Speechless. Knew the area well when I worked down that way. Tragic, senseless loss of life.

[HCM]

Heard on NPR, suspect was not currently enrolled in school.

NPR also said a Florida congressman had recently visited the school and when interviewed, said, "Security seemed great." Probably BS news noise, but reporting so hindsight is 20/20.

Disclaimer: unconfirmed info jostling around.

TV report said shooter was a former student who was expelled for disciplinary reasons.

[Dismas316]

Damn it., so sad, prayers go out to all those families and kids. Weird timing, just finished the book Columbine by Dave Cullen this weekend.

[Bigghoss]

I had a pretty shitty high school experience and not the best home life but I still never even considered killing anyone. And I was in high school when columbine happened. WTF?

[41magfan]

We need a law against this sort of thing.

[willie]

Trump will be under extreme pressure by both parties to agree to something--what, I don't know. Second amendment proponents must choose comments most carefully to avoid appearing insensitive and coming across as giant assholes as I think Glenn said in reference to a past shooting. Now is the time to send money to the NRA. I've been lax but will resume.

[RoyGBiv]

How many live could a few armed teachers have saved?

[wvincent]

Trump will be under extreme pressure by both parties to agree to something--what, I don't know. Second amendment proponents must choose comments most carefully to avoid appearing insensitive and coming across as giant assholes as I think Glenn said in reference to a past shooting. Now is the time to send money to the NRA. I've been lax but will resume.

Pressure to agree to what?
Close nonexistent loopholes?
The shooting was a crime, literally.
What can he do, make it crimeyer? (yes, I made that up)
Horrific act by a D-Bag with a twisted agenda for sure.
Not to appear insensitive (because I'm not)
But all the pain and tragedy in the world still doesn't trump my rights.

[11B10]

FYI - this was first reported in "Shooting Incidents in the News" @ 2:18. Doesn't make any difference, but I just had to get my mind off the fact that once again, it's kids shooting kids. A mental image that I can't shake. Whatever happened to duking it out on the playground?

[Hambo]

How many live could a few armed teachers have saved?

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?

[wvincent]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?

Teacher wise? None

Maybe every school should be mandated an SRO?

I dunno, you tell me.

[willie]

Pressure to agree to what?
Close nonexistent loopholes?
The shooting was a crime, literally.
What can he do, make it crimeyer? (yes, I made that up)
Horrific act by a D-Bag with a twisted agenda for sure.
Not to appear insensitive (because I'm not)
But all the pain and tragedy in the world still doesn't trump my rights.

I have no idea what he will be asked to agree with, and the comment does not imply that any action would prevent crimes. One possibility would be regulations or legislation similar to Clinton era restrictions. I don't see the President as a 2a guy, and although I voted for him, I see the gentleman as unpredictable. The number of mass shootings taken together make up a powerful ant-gun force. And there may be others. So get ready.

[wvincent]

I have no idea what he will be asked to agree with, and the comment does not imply that any action would prevent crimes. One possibility would be regulations or legislation similar to Clinton era restrictions. I don't see the President as a 2a guy, and although I voted for him, I see the gentleman as unpredictable. The number of mass shootings taken together make up a powerful ant-gun force. And there may be others. So get ready.

I now what your saying
The Dems have already started their talking points on MSNBC
"Thoughts and Prayers are not enough" etc

The bodies aren't even cold yet.

[dragonmouse]

Not flaming at all because I agree 100% with how many etc. Having said that the answer is very few leo's for all their training and even fewer of the lay public or teachers. The key difference here is that for all of that at least leo's CAN get the training and be able to shoot back. In most schools or mass gatherings only leo's are allowed to defend themselves. Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that when you take your kids to school you expect the school to keep them safe. How can that ever happen if we don't force those same teachers and administrators to be ABLE and Trained to protect them? How about a real discussion about firearms training as a prerequisite of a teaching cert? Don't want to protect the kids you are responsible for then go find another job. It won't stop em all but what we are doing now with no gun sign's and prohibition of law abiding folks being armed in school simply isn't working either. I am not a qualified instructor and I understand that many here make their living that way, but how about let's make training for those folks free? Forget money for guards etc etc ad nausem, with all the tech out there one school at a time through a two/three day course in a shoot house and arm our caregivers. I always hear about saving one life whether for seatbelts, dui checkpoints, random drug checks is fine with most. What about saving one life with that one teacher that might be able to react correctly? Sure won't happen without those who are qualified getting involved in some kind of real way. Somehow I don't think paying hundreds of dollars by someone who doesn't even want to think about such a thing happening to them let alone actually getting equipped is likely either. Here in Ar. we have an enhanced ccw that allows some extra places to carry including schools. Unfortunately it's almost 300 bucks and is an 8 hour class. Real training? I'm less than convinced but if that is the best we have available then we as gun owners can do better. I have idea's that might help convince legislators in Arkansas but no basis for them listening to me as I am just a truck driver. After all I can't offer to train anyone, why would they listen to my idea's. A nationwide group of trainers might have some luck in more than just Ar. That's a few thoughts for now but if we can't discuss it rationally then how can we expect the avg joe to to so?

[Ichiban]

I now what your saying
The Dems have already started their talking points on MSNBC
"Thoughts and Prayers are not enough" etc

The bodies aren't even cold yet.

Hell, they started before the bodies were even counted.

[LittleLebowski]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?

I’d be happy with “have gun, will run towards danger” for now.

[RJ]

I dunno, you tell me.

Install a unique ‘Active Shooter’ school wide alarm with separate and distinctive sound from fire alarm?

Conduct Active Shooter Drills?

Offer (require?) age-appropriate trauma / bleeding control training to all students and faculty?

Encourage (require?) classrooms to be equipped with augmented first aid equipment (TQs, Comp bandages, Celox) and of at station no throughout school property?

Work with major providers (e.g. D.A.R.K., NAR) to offer discounts on IFAKs and make available to students and faculty at reduced cost?

Augment school LEO based resource officers with trained CCW carrying staff (and prominently advertise it with signage entering school grounds)?

Put in place adequate classroom locks on all doorways leading to likely places of refuge?

Review school construction for interior wall thickness and resistance to .223 rounds or similar?



This all seems so inadequate after the fact though. :(. These events are so horrible it is impossible to understand the grief these families are going through. I would be numb.

[HCM]

Teacher wise? None

Maybe every school should be mandated an SRO?

I dunno, you tell me.

I read the school has 3,400 students. I would be surprised if a school that size did not have more than one SRO.

[ralph]

I now what your saying
The Dems have already started their talking points on MSNBC
"Thoughts and Prayers are not enough" etc

The bodies aren't even cold yet.

Typical Democrat tactic..for the next week we're going to hear nothing but the same old tired gun grabbing ideas...assault weapons ban, "high" capacity mag ban, gunshow loophole ban, never ideas like arming the teachers, more cops in the school, especially a large one like this.. but what should we expect, as a society, we're all to happy to guard large piles of paper money with armed guards, and yet we guard our kids in school with a sign..those are the prioritys of the damned...

[willie]

I'm a retired teacher and except in rural schools with small populations I would be hesitant to recommend that teachers be armed unless there were guidelines for screening that would identify a select few capable of meeting training standards. Instead I would prefer to see a stronger police presence. My opinion is that national teacher organizations(anti gun)would object and lobby against the idea.

When my school hired the first police officers in 1987, I shared this observation with the officers: if a cop had to shoot a kid, the shooting would become instantly controversial. Further, neither the Chief nor the Superintendent would have the nuts to back the officer, and last, the cop would be forced from the profession. Just as police chiefs really are not cops and school Superintendents really are not teachers, I cannot foresee any school administrator buying into letting teachers be armed. Politics would not permit this.

[Trooper224]

My wife has been a highschool teacher for twenty eight years. Teachers carrying guns in school is the last thing you want.

[HCM]

I can’t copy the photo but it appears the suspect is wearing a JROTC shirt. Also is it just the lighting or is this another guy who was trying to look like The Joker ?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/14/nikolas-cruz-identified-as-florida-high-school-shooting-suspect-reportedly-showed-warning-signs.html

[hufnagel]

All the schools in my area just spent large dollars remodeling the main entrance ways with double doors and lock outs. Problem is, the average car or SUV could blast through both layers like they were cray paper. Makes me furious that my tax dollars went towards theater instead of actual security. Also all the secondary exits are just as vulnerable.

[JodyH]

Arming all teachers is ridiculous.
Allowing the military veteran janitor or the 3-gun competing science teacher to carry their ccw on school property if they desire should be a no-brainer.

It's not about having armed responders in the school, it's about having armed defenders.

[JodyH]

I cannot foresee any school administrator buying into letting teachers be armed. Politics would not permit this.
And yet several school districts in Texas have done just that...

[JodyH]

All the schools in my area just spent large dollars remodeling the main entrance ways with double doors and lock outs. Problem is, the average car or SUV could blast through both layers like they were cray paper. Makes me furious that my tax dollars went towards theater instead of actual security. Also all the secondary exits are just as vulnerable.
Our new High School has brick walled curving steps, concrete planter boxes and real bollards protecting the armored main entrance from vehicle attacks.

[hufnagel]

Our new High School has brick walled curving steps, concrete planter boxes and real bollards protecting the armored main entrance from vehicle attacks.

ours... don't. but the district admin wing at the middle school got all new central A/C last year. that was much more important than actual security.

[fly out]

Don't mandate armed teachers, janitors, staff, etc. But allow it.

I wouldn't want to be shooting on a square range with many of the teachers I know, much less let them carry in a school full of children, but there are plenty of veterans who move into teaching, as just one example of a cohort who might be able to handle the responsibility.

[BobM]

And yet several school districts in Texas have done just that...

And in Ohio as well

[JodyH]

In New Mexico we have the "Mounted Patrol" which is basically volunteer sworn law enforcement.
It requires initial training and continuing training to maintain the LE certification and their powers and jurisdiction can be limited by the sponsoring agency.
I think it would be a great way to get free LE into the schools.
In fact the Troop that used to be active in my county worked all the High School sports events as Deputy Sheriffs for years until it kind of faded away when some of the full time Deputies bitched about not getting enough overtime opportunities.
Any teacher who wants to carry in school could undergo the NMMP training and be sworn in as a volunteer school resource officer with their LE authority restricted to school property/functions and very limited arrest authority.

[TAZ]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?

First off, prayers to those poor souls dealing with this crazy persons mess.

Without sounding truly snarky, there is probably a 0.01% chance of handling the situation unarmed and a 0.1% chance 1v1 with a handgun, but I’ll take those additional 0.09 points if that’s all I have.

Conversely, how many single crazy shooters would be able to handle multiple armed people engaging them? These guys tend to whack themselves when they meet resistance.

I do agree about teachers carrying guns. Wife is a teacher and seeing her coworkers mentalities and reactions to stress leads me to believe that few would even take the opportunity to do so and of those VERY few would pass any kind of training beyond this is a gun and pointy things come out this end. Some would kicks ass, but the profession these days attracts the liberal hive vs. the retired mil, LEO, athlete...

However, EVERY school I’ve been around has hundreds of volunteers traipsing through them all day. I get half a dozen requests to volunteer at my sons school every month. I’d be more than willing to spring my own $$ for whatever training they want to be allowed to carry while I’m on campus. Heck, I’d even be willing to work out an alternative work schedule and be there 1 day a week. I’m sure there are others who would do the same, so you could have trained people there for free, but the district and its lawyers will never sign off on it.

Imo school staff need to focus on teaching and locking the school down, because that is still probably the best bet against shooters. Assuming the school isn’t made of nail, paper and cardboard. Solid reinforced concrete walls with solid metal fire barrier doors like I had when I was in school.

WRT to this last sad event, I’ll jump to the conclusion that liberalism is a mental disorder that is killing innocent children. A student who is expelled for violent threats should NEVER be allowed back as part of some dumb alternative education program. That’s why we have GED programs and alternative education centers. Just cause you want to pad your drop out numbers isn’t reason to endanger innocent children. If it’s true that this guy was so nutty that he was banned from carrying a back pack on campus why the hell allow him back to begin with?

I hope the parents of all those kids sue the crap out of the school district for allowing this guy back on campus. How is it not gross negligence to allow a known threat back??

[willie]

And in Ohio as well

To me this is news, and of course l'm certain that you are correct. My school district was large and inner city. Based on my perceptions then, I have difficulty seeing that this type district would permit armed teachers. I could understand its occurrence in a small rural district. I retired in 2002.

Edit...I had intended to include the info about Texas school districts but screwed the post.

[JodyH]

but the profession these days attracts the liberal hive vs. the retired mil, LEO, athlete...
Maybe introducing the culture of personal responsibility (like ccw in school) can make the profession more attractive to veterans and others of similar mindset and less attractive to hippie dippies?

[TGS]

A good solution for arming staff, IMO:

https://www.seu.edu/blog/southeastern-university-polk-county-sheriffs-office-sentinel-program/

[TAZ]

A good solution for arming staff, IMO:

https://www.seu.edu/blog/southeastern-university-polk-county-sheriffs-office-sentinel-program/

Tx supposedly has a School Marshall program that would allow 1 staff member per 400 students to be armed. No idea if the ratio is still accurate or if it’s been implemented in any serious manner.

I’d love it if more conservatives would enter the profession. Not going to happen though. Districts and schools are run by liberal idiots who, like Google, stifle any conservative approach. They surround themselves with idiots and make life miserable for others. Quality teachers are leaving the profession too quickly to be replaced with like skilled people. I have a secondary ed degree and would only go into that field as a last resort, hell Id consider the FSA before teaching. The amount of shit my wife has to deal with would land me out if a job before my first paycheck. Like I said liberalism is a mental disorder that kills innocents. In this case liberalism will kill education if it hasn’t already done so.

[willie]

Slightly off topic but is idiot related. A friend who works in a Texas juvenile male prison said that trannies make up a separate category and must be treated as females by giving them panties, bras, hair brushes and such. Plus staff must use their desired female name like Susy orJane. Failure to do brings about repercussions from the state of Texas if the kid complains. This is where I draw the line. Sorry. Have zero problems with gay folks. Even support their right to do whatever. But not the tranny stuff. I hope mods don't penalize me for saying tranny. You see, I can't spell it correctly. So now we understand how schools became messed up when we see the same liberalism in prisons management. This really grinds my gears and gets my goat too.

[HCM]

Tx supposedly has a School Marshall program that would allow 1 staff member per 400 students to be armed. No idea if the ratio is still accurate or if it’s been implemented in any serious manner.

I’d love it if more conservatives would enter the profession. Not going to happen though. Districts and schools are run by liberal idiots who, like Google, stifle any conservative approach. They surround themselves with idiots and make life miserable for others. Quality teachers are leaving the profession too quickly to be replaced with like skilled people. I have a secondary ed degree and would only go into that field as a last resort, hell Id consider the FSA before teaching. The amount of shit my wife has to deal with would land me out if a job before my first paycheck. Like I said liberalism is a mental disorder that kills innocents. In this case liberalism will kill education if it hasn’t already done so.

TX does have a school Marshal program. I don’t recall a ratio, but one restriction is the SMs must not be in positions with constant student contact so teachers are out. Most are admin, support staff, principals etc.

Like corporal punishment in TX schools, each ISD decides whether of not to implement the School Marshal program. All that I’m aware of are in ruerql or remote areas.

[11B10]

Slightly off topic but is idiot related. A friend who works in a Texas juvenile male prison said that trannies make up a separate category and must be treated as females by giving them panties, bras, hair brushes and such. Plus staff must use their desired female name like Susy orJane. Failure to do brings about repercussions from the state of Texas if the kid complains. This is where I draw the line. Sorry. Have zero problems with gay folks. Even support their right to do whatever. But not the tranny stuff. I hope mods don't penalize me for saying tranny. You see, I can't spell it correctly. So now we understand how schools became messed up when we see the same liberalism in prisons management. This really grinds my gears and gets my goat too.



I've read that in California (big surprise), not only do the teachers have to toe the line with everything you said, they are not allowed - BY LAW - to say anything to the parents.

[Hambo]

What I'd like to see first and foremost after these situations is some respect for the dead. Senator Murphy didn't even know how many were killed before he called everyone in the US a guilty bystander for not doing more for gun control. Then the response on gun forums is that armed teachers would have saved lives without knowing how many unarmed teachers did just that yesterday. Maybe we should institute a waiting period for politicizing death.

[olstyn]

But not the tranny stuff.

I couldn't possibly be any less bothered by some people thinking they need to be the opposite gender. I don't even have a problem referring to them by their preferred pronouns. What bothers me is when it becomes the open carry of sexuality. The number of transgendered people who are essentially walking around saying "LOOK AT ME AND HOW DIFFERENT AND SPECIAL I AM AND HOW MUCH I CAN CAUSE SOCIETY TO FORCE YOU TO RESPECT ME" is what bugs me. Be trans or whatever else you need to be; that's fine, but I don't carry my gun *at* you, so how about you don't carry your trans-ness *at* me. Deal? *sigh* Didn't think so... :(

[wsr]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?

i would say most are or can be, with a modicum of training...more mindset than firearms centered
basically what the following post convey


I’d be happy with “have gun, will run towards danger” for now.


Arming all teachers is ridiculous.
Allowing the military veteran janitor or the 3-gun competing science teacher to carry their ccw on school property if they desire should be a no-brainer.

It's not about having armed responders in the school, it's about having armed defenders.

exactly, we dont need or want to train teachers to clear rooms or tactics at all for the most part...train them on basic marksmanship ( more is better but slightly above average will do) gun handling and mindset...they need to understand that the children under their control are their responsibility and they are expected to do whatever they are capable of to protect them (armed or not)

All it would have took is a teacher to pop out of a room and take a shot, a teacher to take a shot as he entered a room, take a shot when he is focused and shooting in a different direction etc...we are not necessarily looking for a teacher to square up and "stand and deliver" though that may well be a viable response also, especially if there are a decent number or other armed teachers

[Hambo]

All it would have took is a teacher to pop out of a room and take a shot, a teacher to take a shot as he entered a room, take a shot when he is focused and shooting in a different direction etc

Sure, anybody can pop out a doorway and take a shot down a hall full of no shoots. I don't know why we wasted so much time on SWAT training for hostage rescue shots. {sarcasm}

People, shooters, constantly complain about what lousy shooters cops are (and for the most part rightly so), but give a teacher some basic bullseye training and they'll be ready for the worst case scenario. This kind of thinking is absurd.

As I said, I'm not opposed to letting teachers who want to carry a gun do so (although it will probably kill their career in a lot of districts), but for most of them it would be last ditch barricade defense, not an offensive attack on the shooter.

[Zincwarrior]

Install a unique ‘Active Shooter’ school wide alarm with separate and distinctive sound from fire alarm?

Conduct Active Shooter Drills?

Offer (require?) age-appropriate trauma / bleeding control training to all students and faculty?

Encourage (require?) classrooms to be equipped with augmented first aid equipment (TQs, Comp bandages, Celox) and of at station no throughout school property?

Work with major providers (e.g. D.A.R.K., NAR) to offer discounts on IFAKs and make available to students and faculty at reduced cost?

Augment school LEO based resource officers with trained CCW carrying staff (and prominently advertise it with signage entering school grounds)?

Put in place adequate classroom locks on all doorways leading to likely places of refuge?

Review school construction for interior wall thickness and resistance to .223 rounds or similar?



This all seems so inadequate after the fact though. :(. These events are so horrible it is impossible to understand the grief these families are going through. I would be numb.
Many schools can't afford decent buildings, enough teachers and materials. They can't afford that.

[RJ]

Interesting if true:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from

“In September, a YouTube user named Nikolas Cruz left a comment on a video stating, "I'm going to be a professional school shooter." The video's creator alerted both the FBI and YouTube.”

[Zincwarrior]

I couldn't possibly be any less bothered by some people thinking they need to be the opposite gender. I don't even have a problem referring to them by their preferred pronouns. What bothers me is when it becomes the open carry of sexuality. The number of transgendered people who are essentially walking around saying "LOOK AT ME AND HOW DIFFERENT AND SPECIAL I AM AND HOW MUCH I CAN CAUSE SOCIETY TO FORCE YOU TO RESPECT ME" is what bugs me. Be trans or whatever else you need to be; that's fine, but I don't carry my gun *at* you, so how about you don't carry your trans-ness *at* me. Deal? *sigh* Didn't think so... :(
Thus issue us wholly unrelated unless you have proof any if these shooters were that.

[Zincwarrior]

Stuff now showing he was crazy and others could have been aware.

But frankly so what? Police can't charge on that, can't sieze firearms, what could they do?

[wsr]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?


I’d be happy with “have gun, will run towards danger” for now.


Arming all teachers is ridiculous.
Allowing the military veteran janitor or the 3-gun competing science teacher to carry their ccw on school property if they desire should be a no-brainer.

It's not about having armed responders in the school, it's about having armed defenders.


Sure, anybody can pop out a doorway and take a shot down a hall full of no shoots. I don't know why we wasted so much time on SWAT training for hostage rescue shots. {sarcasm}

People, shooters, constantly complain about what lousy shooters cops are (and for the most part rightly so), but give a teacher some basic bullseye training and they'll be ready for the worst case scenario. This kind of thinking is absurd.

As I said, I'm not opposed to letting teachers who want to carry a gun do so (although it will probably kill their career in a lot of districts), but for most of them it would be last ditch barricade defense, not an offensive attack on the shooter.

No it’s not absurd, you are thinking as a first responder, the minimally trained are going to look for a “opportunity” most people can weigh risk/reward quite well and will default to minimize the risk..a 25y shot with a hallway full of kids? Probably can’t even differentiate between the shooter and innocents so not gonna shoot, a 5 or 10y shot after he walks past your doorway? The reward is probably worth the risk

[RJ]

Stuff now showing he was crazy and others could have been aware.

But frankly so what? Police can't charge on that, can't sieze firearms, what could they do?

Should you be entered into NICS for a secondary follow up interview?

I mean, if shooter asshole had actually been interviewed by the FBI for credible threats against a School, and shooter asshole fits the profile (18-21 years, male) of previous shooter assholes, it doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me to start asking questions?

Or maybe I don’t understand NICS. I dunno.

[41magfan]

Don't overthink this folks. A school setting is just another slice of the same pie and while it may be a tad different than everywhere else USA, the demands and responsibilities of being armed and willing to defend yourself or others remains constant.

People who don't/won't feel the need to be armed aren't part of the equation. Just as it does in every other setting, just a few armed, able and willing folks among the masses makes all the difference.

The problem with the school settings is that the armed defenders are limited to an SRO or two at best. Many schools (especially the lower grades) still have no LE presence on-site so those places are low hanging fruit for the nutcases and they know it. It's really just as simple as that.

ETA: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-09/idaho-school-arms-its-teachers-defense-against-violent-criminals

[RJ]

Sure, anybody can pop out a doorway and take a shot down a hall full of no shoots. I don't know why we wasted so much time on SWAT training for hostage rescue shots. {sarcasm}

People, shooters, constantly complain about what lousy shooters cops are (and for the most part rightly so), but give a teacher some basic bullseye training and they'll be ready for the worst case scenario. This kind of thinking is absurd.

As I said, I'm not opposed to letting teachers who want to carry a gun do so (although it will probably kill their career in a lot of districts), but for most of them it would be last ditch barricade defense, not an offensive attack on the shooter.

I agree and yield the point about ‘objective’ performance.

I think what might, however, help is to impress on the shooter asshole approaching the school if there were signs saying ARMED STAFF WILL RESPOND WITH DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT OUR STUDENTS on signs scattered about.

My thinking is it would give shooter asshole something to think about?

[Zincwarrior]

Should you be entered into NICS for a secondary follow up interview?

I mean, if shooter asshole had actually been interviewed by the FBI for credible threats against a School, and shooter asshole fits the profile (18-21 years, male) of previous shooter assholes, it doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me to start asking questions?

Or maybe I don’t understand NICS. I dunno.

Indeed, mine's more of a question. With current laws, what can they do? What should they be able to do?

[Zincwarrior]

I agree and yield the point about ‘objective’ performance.

I think what might, however, help is to impress on the shooter asshole approaching the school if there were signs saying ARMED STAFF WILL RESPOND WITH DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT OUR STUDENTS on signs scattered about.

My thinking is it would give shooter asshole something to think about?

No, actually.

[Duelist]

-quote and response to stuff Tom wants left out of this thread-

Sorry, posted in response to earlier posts before got to Tom's guidance to stay on the rails and out of the weeds on unrelated school issues.

[LittleLebowski]

I know this reads like a request, it’s not.

23807

[RoyGBiv]

Before anybody lights me up, I'm not opposed to the idea.

This guy had a plan (pull fire alarm to get targets out and unprotected) and a long gun. How many people do you know who are prepared and capable enough to handle a situation like that?
So let's disarm everyone and not give anyone a chance to get lucky?
Or... maybe we develop some tactics and provide training for (strictly voluntary and well vetted) employees to "do something" rather than die bravely as human shields.

All the ".... but teachers suck at shooting" comments are quite a surprise.
Nobody is suggesting forcing unprepared people to carry guns, but not every teacher is a Derp.
My kids have had many retired military folks as teachers in HS, just for one example.

[CCT125US]

No, actually.

And this is also my response to uniformed LE posted at schools. I would think the LEO would be the first hurdle the assholes would try to overcome. So then what, plain clothes?

[Zincwarrior]

And this is also my response to uniformed LE posted at schools. I would think the LEO would be the first hurdle the assholes would try to overcome. So then what, plain clothes?
Someone from the school would know who they are I would think. We had one at our school.

[blues]

I wonder if it would ever make sense to consider developing a cadre of volunteers from the ranks of LEOSA qualified retired LE, send them for updated training and allow them to perform community service in their own local schools (as long as they received some sort of indemnification or guarantee of support for any potential legal costs arising out of their participation).

I know I'd be willing to assist in local schools for a certain amount of hours per week. (Might work more in smallish quasi-rural areas like mine as compared to urban sprawl.)

[RJ]

I found this sobering review of options in arming teachers here:

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/arming-teachers-and-school-staff/

Guy makes a few good points here.

tl;dr: Arming teachers is not, really, a good idea.

[Stephanie B]

Typical Democrat tactic..for the next week we're going to hear nothing but the same old tired gun grabbing ideas...assault weapons ban, "high" capacity mag ban, gunshow loophole ban, never ideas like arming the teachers, more cops in the school, especially a large one like this.. but what should we expect, as a society, we're all to happy to guard large piles of paper money with armed guards, and yet we guard our kids in school with a sign..those are the prioritys of the damned...

Oh, please. Some clown with a name like Achmed Ackbar kills two people and the "conservatives" are calling for a Muslim ban before the bodies reach room temperature.

[WobblyPossum]

I don't support the idea of forcing anyone to carry a gun if they don't want to but I support allowing trained and vetted school personnel to be armed if they wish. I also really like blues idea about allowing retired LEOSA folks to volunteer as armed security on school property. As already mentioned, there are a ton of ex-military folks getting into teaching, including our own breakingtime91, and they're exactly the people I'm talking about. They have training, experience, proper mindset, and the dedication to the communities they serve. I'd love to see people like that allowed to carry concealed in their schools to protect the students.

[StraitR]

Oh, please. Some clown with a name like Achmed Ackbar kills two people and the "conservatives" are calling for a Muslim ban before the bodies reach room temperature.

Are we stooping to this level now? So what? Both of your statements are correct, how does that make either of them right? It doesn't. Your comment reads like "I know you are but what am I?", and is beneath you, and PF for that matter.

Our system is horrifically and shamefully broken, and while I won't even begin to claim I have any answers, I can assure you the answer is not making sure the "other side" knows they're just as fucked up as "my side", so let's do nothing.

[Chance]

According to BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43071710), the dude wasn't allowed on campus with a backpack.


Teachers were warned in advance about the teenager who allegedly carried out a mass shooting at his former school in Florida, US media are reporting.

Nikolas Cruz has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder following the deadliest shooting at a US school since 2012.

A teacher said Mr Cruz was not allowed on campus with a backpack.

....

School officials have not disclosed why Mr Cruz was expelled from the school, but student Victoria Olvera, 17, told the Associated Press it was because of a fight with his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.

She also claimed he had been abusive towards the ex-girlfriend.

Former schoolmate Joshua Charo said Mr Cruz had been found with bullets in his backpack.

"I can't say I was shocked," Mr Charo said.

[Beat Trash]

Arming all teachers is not a realistic option.

Bringing in armed volunteers may sound realistic at first, but it would require some serious vetting system to be put into place. Plinking beer cans or shooting a local 3 gun match is not enough training to confront an active shooter. IF a jurisdiction were to get approval for vetted armed volunteers, then it wouldn't be all that hard to setup some force on force training with SIMS, ect.

Having an active shooter plan in place within the school and practicing it should be mandatory. Every classroom door would have a solid core door with a lock so that the teachers can lock down their classroom and shelter in place.

Schools should have a dedicated SRO. This SRO should not be the reject officer that is looking for a place to retire on duty, but someone willing to accept the responsibility that the current environment now mandates out of an SRO. Agencies should conduct active shooter training and have access to school floor plans.

Now to change the topic slightly, what the hell has changed to cause these school shootings??? Guns were always available, more so when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's. The media is trying to push a political agenda of gun control giving the false impression that it will suddenly cause these shootings to stop. It seems like school shootings really kicked in within the last 10-15 years. But privately owned firearms were not just instituted within this country within the last 10-15 years. Media wanting to blame the evil looking AR15 rifle? Not all school shooters are using an AR15. And the AR15 has been around for a lot longer than this spree of school shootings.

What's going on here? Is it a mental health issue caused by social media? Caused by current culture, movies, music, ect?

Something has changed. And I personally feel it's much more involved than access to firearms. The firearm is just a tool. But what possess a teen to wake up one day and decided to commit mass murder?

[JodyH]

Maybe we should institute a waiting period for politicizing death.
Whether we like it or not, the instant hyper-politicization of everything is a fact of life in 2018.
You either get ahead of the narrative or you get crushed by the narrative.

[StraitR]

Beat Trash Exactly the conversation I've been having with friends and family. We have a people problem, not a gun problem, and guns are not new. So, what has changed? It's such a deep topic with many, MANY rabbit holes. Very tough subject and conversation, but one that needs to really be worked through.

[Kirk]

Arming all teachers is not a realistic option.

Bringing in armed volunteers may sound realistic at first, but it would require some serious vetting system to be put into place. Plinking beer cans or shooting a local 3 gun match is not enough training to confront an active shooter. IF a jurisdiction were to get approval for vetted armed volunteers, then it wouldn't be all that hard to setup some force on force training with SIMS, ect.

Having an active shooter plan in place within the school and practicing it should be mandatory. Every classroom door would have a solid core door with a lock so that the teachers can lock down their classroom and shelter in place.

Schools should have a dedicated SRO. This SRO should not be the reject officer that is looking for a place to retire on duty, but someone willing to accept the responsibility that the current environment now mandates out of an SRO. Agencies should conduct active shooter training and have access to school floor plans.

Now to change the topic slightly, what the hell has changed to cause these school shootings??? Guns were always available, more so when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's. The media is trying to push a political agenda of gun control giving the false impression that it will suddenly cause these shootings to stop. It seems like school shootings really kicked in within the last 10-15 years. But privately owned firearms were not just instituted within this country within the last 10-15 years. Media wanting to blame the evil looking AR15 rifle? Not all school shooters are using an AR15. And the AR15 has been around for a lot longer than this spree of school shootings.

What's going on here? Is it a mental health issue caused by social media? Caused by current culture, movies, music, ect?

Something has changed. And I personally feel it's much more involved than access to firearms. The firearm is just a tool. But what possess a teen to wake up one day and decided to commit mass murder?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-mass-killers-want8212and-how-to-stop-them-1383957068

Excellent article on the psychology behind mass shooters and some very realistic options given.

[Peally]

Sigh. Just another reminder that I need to get a job at a CCW friendly business.

[JodyH]

BTW: I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes towards an armed citizenry in this thread. I'm picking up a vibe of "I'm the only one professional/trained/good enough...".
I've signed the certification papers for hundreds of good people wanting to get a CCW in my state, I trust that the vast majority of them would make the right decisions and stay well within their personal limitations in situations like this or other active shooting situations whether at a school, mall, church etc..

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I found this sobering review of options in arming teachers here:

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/arming-teachers-and-school-staff/

Guy makes a few good points here.

tl;dr: Arming teachers is not, really, a good idea.

Substitute a place of worship, a public library full of kids after school and/or a crowded mall for the educational locale - and you get the same objections to concealed carry. There is no differentiation between them on an actual response to an incident. The difference is the perceived risk to children from the incompetent use of firearms by the defender. Children are seen as more valuable. Also, there is a bias that it is better for a bad person to kill deliberately as compared to a good person causing an accidental death (esp. a kid) even in defense of others. Psych lecture some other day.

Empirically, we have so few school shootings X armed teachers (as in campus carry states), that there is little evidence of the competency of the teacher causing ill. Several states have instituted training programs but most teachers have no interest in such.

It is an interesting point to whether you want the armed teacher to be an official instrument and pseudo-cop for the school. That does bring up training type, weapons type, does the teacher have to run to sound of fire as police now have adopted. Or is it better just to allow carry.

In the latter situation, I would say that Janie J-frame and Timmy Taurus-85 should, as a moral prerequisite, do more than fire a box of rounds at a B-27 and proclaim themselves an excellent shot. I know too many of those. Getting folks to train is hard (getting police to more than required is hard, too!). I shoot with several great officers but we don't see crowds of police.

As far as existing teachers/staff having the ability to handle the situation - by that - take a shot with some competence - I can only speak to where I used to work. Out of the 400 or so employees, we had a few veterans with significant training beyond just basic infantry (various special forces), the armed forces veterans and enthusiasts who do train (with folks we know - just a very few who keep their heads down). You can throw in a few good old boy, Daddy taught me how to shoot guys. Add it all up and might have 10% with something going on and about 2% you might consider up to speed (whatever that means).

Do you want them clearly identified as a pseudo-official warrior? I prefer just to allow concealed carriers to carry at school but beseech them to come up to speed. I don't buy the article's rhetoric of equivalency to the highly trained average officer (no offense) as a disqualifier to allowing CCW. I might add that laws should protect the school from any liability from the actions of a civilian CCW type.

About the mental health issue - that is a tough one. Wait to see how the reported warnings to the FBI play out.

That aside - damn thing teared my wife and I up last night. I recall after Aurora seeing a little fat kid in a Batman costume being led out of the area by an officer. I still see that. What galls me is that people will be deprived of the means of successful self-defense and you get suicide charges (like reported for a coach). I made that point at my joint and at the TX legislature. It went nowhere at my joint. All the private colleges opted out of campus carry (a cabal of politically correct world views and guns not fitting into the majority political beliefs).

[BobLoblaw]

News outlets should be banned from revealing a charged mass shooter's identity. Publicity fuels the fire to surpass the everyday anonymity that comes with being a loser but these types of events are viewer lightning rods so the media won't let their morals get in their way. The law will have to force their hand. Even if this information is divulged on social media, users won't have a monetary incentive to spread it. How many widespread social media posts about shootings are linked to news sites vs. not linked to news sites? No face and no name = no fame.

[blues]

BTW: I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes towards an armed citizenry in this thread. I'm picking up a vibe of "I'm the only one professional/trained/good enough...".
I've signed the certification papers for hundreds of good people wanting to get a CCW in my state, I trust that the vast majority of them would make the right decisions and stay well within their personal limitations in situations like this or other active shooting situations whether at a school, mall, church etc..

Just to clarify my comments above, Jody, in case I'm included in your assessment...

I was speaking from the point of view of what a community, town or political subdivision might consider acceptable as opposed to my own personal point of view in regard to using LEOSA qualified retired LE.

In other words, I was simply trying to think expediently in terms of what "they" would consider a legitimate response.

[JTQ]

Now to change the topic slightly, what the hell has changed to cause these school shootings??? Guns were always available, more so when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's. The media is trying to push a political agenda of gun control giving the false impression that it will suddenly cause these shootings to stop. It seems like school shootings really kicked in within the last 10-15 years.

What's going on here? Is it a mental health issue caused by social media? Caused by current culture, movies, music, ect?

Something has changed. And I personally feel it's much more involved than access to firearms. The firearm is just a tool. But what possess a teen to wake up one day and decided to commit mass murder?
My theory is a lack of father's in the home.

[ralph]

Oh, please. Some clown with a name like Achmed Ackbar kills two people and the "conservatives" are calling for a Muslim ban before the bodies reach room temperature.

Go turn on the news right now..The screaming for gun control from the left has already started. Anybody who owns a AR-15 is their enemy. I for one, am getting sick and tired of being blamed for something I did'nt do, simply because I own one. And, like it or not that's the left's mindset. In reality, it wasn't the guns fault, it was a nut case kid who should'nt ever been allowed to touch one's fault. The choice of weapon isn't the point, and demanding that a whole class of firearms be banned from private ownership isn't realistic..Passing more "feel good" laws dosen't help either.Bottom line here, the gov't can't help..once again the "gun free zone" signs, didn't do their job. What's the answer? I don't know, start building schools with prison like security? The communitys themselves are the only ones who can determine what level of security they want..like I said before, We, as a country don't have a problem guarding large piles of (fiat) money with armed guards, but we guard our kids at school with a sign..Maybe it's time for that to change...

[TGS]

BTW: I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes towards an armed citizenry in this thread. I'm picking up a vibe of "I'm the only one professional/trained/good enough...".
I've signed the certification papers for hundreds of good people wanting to get a CCW in my state, I trust that the vast majority of them would make the right decisions and stay well within their personal limitations in situations like this or other active shooting situations whether at a school, mall, church etc..

Mmmhmmm.

The majority of P-F.com members are not LE, yet there seems to be a desire to restrict anyone who isn't LE from CCW'ing in a school.

I don't get it. P-F.com members are essentially arguing they themselves should not have the capability to carry in a school, even though the same peoples' sole existence on the internet is to bitch and moan about muh'rights.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

About the publicity - criminologists, psychologists, law enforcement, etc. have been saying this for quite a while. The memorials, heart wrenching interviews with survivors and those who lost loved ones, films of the chaos all serve as:

1. Observational learning of how to pull this off. We know these folks study past shootings and fixate on VT and Columbine for instance.
2. Vicarious reinforcement for their psyche. Imaging the outcome lights up your reward systems as the real event does.

So, I hear that President Trump has been informed, Senator Rubio is monitoring the situation (in the Rubio Cave, so what!). What is does say, is that no one gives a crap about me and I'm going to show them. And guess what the President of the USA will know my name, what I did and why! I'm a big deal now.

However, the current media blitz won't change.

As a related issue, the current Chronicle of Higher Education has discussed suicides on campus (not shooter/suicide) and the experts made the point: NO BIG SCHOOL MEMORIALS. Guess why - same idea.

[Stephanie B]

Go turn on the news right now..The screaming for gun control from the left has already started.

Point; missed.

[Peally]

Mmmhmmm.

The majority of P-F.com members are not LE, yet there seems to be a desire to restrict anyone who isn't LE from CCW'ing in a school.

I don't get it. P-F.com members are essentially arguing they themselves should not have the capability to carry in a school, even though the same peoples' sole existence on the internet is to bitch and moan about muh'rights.

This place gets really "funny" sometimes when these topics flare up. I tend to avoid them as rolling my eyes hurts after a while.

[JodyH]

Just to clarify my comments above, Jody, in case I'm included in your assessment...
I actually had no one in particular, or even any particular post in mind when I posted.
I just saw a meme or stereotype if you will of who is the "average concealed carrier" developing in this thread that as a CCW instructor for over 15 years now I just don't see in real life.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The gun control debate is dishonest. There would only be two solutions:

1. Bans and intensive confiscations of all but ducky-wucky shotguns that are kept at the gun club.
2. Involuntary commitment of anyone uttering bizarre and/or violent statements.

Let that be proposed and see how it plays. It's different from no pistol grips and threaded barrels as protecting us from rampages. Go for it full bore. It's not that experts on the issue don't know that the standard gun control proposals have no effect.

Not my position, for those who haven't figured that out.

[LittleLebowski]

This place gets really "funny" sometimes when these topics flare up. I tend to avoid them as rolling my eyes hurts after a while.

Me too. Personally, I find it hard to generalize this place. Kind of like herding cats.

[Stephanie B]

Are we stooping to this level now? So what? Both of your statements are correct, how does that make either of them right? It doesn't. Your comment reads like "I know you are but what am I?", and is beneath you, and PF for that matter.

Our system is horrifically and shamefully broken, and while I won't even begin to claim I have any answers, I can assure you the answer is not making sure the "other side" knows they're just as fucked up as "my side", so let's do nothing.

You've missed the point. It's really hard for me to understand the level of umbrage over the gunbanners in the Left seeking to capitalize on this when I see the islamophobes on the right, all the way up to Trump, doing the exact same thing every time some guy with an Arabic-soundling last name kills somebody.

Bleating about "oh, look how evil the liberals are" is pointless and hypocritical AF. And yet, it's *my* throat that gets jumped down for pointing that out?

[wvincent]

My theory is a lack of father's in the home.

Yep^^^^^
So where are the parents in all of this?
And where did D-Bag (cause I ain't saying the Fucker's name) get get the rifle and the rest of his gear?

Expelled, and then let back in for some "special" program?
Not allowed on campus with a backpack? Better just not allowed on campus, period.

It appears almost everyone knew this kid was bent/broken.
Lot of people got some "splaining to do"
,

[Spartan1980]

News outlets should be banned from revealing a charged mass shooter's identity. Publicity fuels the fire to surpass the everyday anonymity that comes with being a loser but these types of events are viewer lightning rods so the media won't let their morals get in their way. The law will have to force their hand. Even if this information is divulged on social media, users won't have a monetary incentive to spread it. How many widespread social media posts about shootings are linked to news sites vs. not linked to news sites? No face and no name = no fame.

I'd go further and say they shouldn't be allowed to be covered with video for 10 days. I'd be willing to bet that there were 50 to 60 satellite trucks down there last night and probably up to 100 today. The question of "what's changed?" in our society is easily answered. The media's ability to almost instantly broadcast all over the world has introduced a complete new dynamic into society. If you want to cut down on these things, quit putting them front and center 24/7 to inspire other like minded nutjobs. It just ain't that hard to understand, but it doesn't sell advertising...

[scw2]

Passing more "feel good" laws dosen't help either.Bottom line here, the gov't can't help..once again the "gun free zone" signs, didn't do their job. What's the answer?

Regulating how or how much the media covers these types of events definitely could help, I just don't know how that would fit within the 1A rights.

[JodyH]

BTW: On occasion I find myself really frustrated with the skill level (lack of) of most people who carry a gun (pros and amateurs) and find myself starting to buy into the meme of the "average person is more harm than good".
Then I think back on the hundreds of people who came through my classes, why they were there, who among them is probably actually carrying regularly and based on what I know of their mentality what they'd do in a situation like this... and I relax because I have confidence they'll do the best they can and that their best will probably do more good than harm.

[scw2]

As a related issue, the current Chronicle of Higher Education has discussed suicides on campus (not shooter/suicide) and the experts made the point: NO BIG SCHOOL MEMORIALS. Guess why - same idea.

I read an article somewhere a while ago, so do not have a good link on hand, but the gist of it was a country/city was suffering from a wave of suicides. They took steps to stop publicizing suicides in the media, along the lines of what you mentioned, and as a result the suicides went down.

[RoyGBiv]

Arming all teachers is not a realistic option.
Nobody suggested "ALL". Ever.

[wvincent]

BTW: On occasion I find myself really frustrated with the skill level (lack of) of most people who carry a gun (pros and amateurs) and find myself starting to buy into the meme of the "average person is more harm than good".
Then I think back on the hundreds of people who came through my classes, why they were there, who among them is probably actually carrying regularly and based on what I know of their mentality what they'd do in a situation like this... and I relax because I have confidence they'll do the best they can and that their best will probably do more good than harm.

Well said and thank you for putting that up.

[Peally]

BTW: On occasion I find myself really frustrated with the skill level (lack of) of most people who carry a gun (pros and amateurs) and find myself starting to buy into the meme of the "average person is more harm than good".
Then I think back on the hundreds of people who came through my classes, why they were there, who among them is probably actually carrying regularly and based on what I know of their mentality what they'd do in a situation like this... and I relax because I have confidence they'll do the best they can and that their best will probably do more good than harm.

I always like to remember that it's pretty hard to fuck up an "everyone dies" situation any more than it'd normally be.

[texasaggie2005]

Yep^^^^^
So where are the parents in all of this?
And where did D-Bag (cause I ain't saying the Fucker's name) get get the rifle and the rest of his gear?

Expelled, and then let back in for some "special" program?
Not allowed on campus with a backpack? Better just not allowed on campus, period.

It appears almost everyone knew this kid was bent/broken.
Lot of people got some "splaining to do"
,

Adoptive father died when he was young, adoptive mother died last November due to flu complications. He bounced around between a couple other households afterwards. Apparently *shooter* legally bought the AR.

[JodyH]

I always like to remember that it's pretty hard to fuck up an "everyone dies" situation any more than it'd normally be.
Way back in the '90's I went through a EMT Basic course.
That was the lead off statement to the CPR instruction block.
"If you screw up the hand placement, count or the compression depth or whatever. It doesn't matter... they were already dead when you started so it's going to be really hard to make things worse for them."

[LorenzoS]

.. there seems to be a desire to restrict anyone who isn't LE from CCW'ing in a school...

We've heard a constant warning that blood will run in the streets when undertrained legally armed citizens engage in shootouts over parking spaces or shoot innocent bystanders in a hail of bullets trying to stop shoplifters. But this question has been asked and answered by experience. The last 30 years of expanded CCW history shows that these problems are exceedingly rare compared to the size of the population.

I don't see why a school should be fundamentally different than any other public space where citizens quietly go about their business legally armed. I say let those who want to carry, carry. When you have a homicidal maniac shooting unarmed kids, how could a legally armed but poorly trained teacher have made the situation any worse?

[TAZ]

As I said, I'm not opposed to letting teachers who want to carry a gun do so (although it will probably kill their career in a lot of districts), but for most of them it would be last ditch barricade defense, not an offensive attack on the shooter.

This situation is no different than any other violent encounter. Use of a gun, knife... is a LAST resort. Avoid, disengage... come first for the general public. However, once we reach the time when there are no other options to run, hide,... you need to have something else other than eat a bullet.

I agree that most teachers aren’t going to do it or even do it well, but those that want to should be enabled to carry

Last resort thinking though. We would be better served with more proactive security at schools.

Every secure business I’ve worked at had revolving doors activated by badge access or something similar. Every student has an RFID badge they use for lunch and snacks. Why not use that to gain entry into the facility. In the AM the doors are wide open for these secured campuses. Our school has the kids and parents walk through the office to enter the campus. Guess what? Nobody is EVER there to see who comes and goes. At least pretend. Just one more step to have to take for a nut job to gain entry.

More importantly, why are kids who are behavior issues allowed to get anywhere near a school, much less attend even though they were expelled? This is mind boggling to me. Education is a privilege, not a right. Your access to education is a right. Screw it up and tough titties IMO.

We keep putting people at risk to accommodate the bad apples. 90% of the time that risk is loss of educational experience cause teachers are farting around with the retards. The others it’s violence or other serious issues. What makes their rights more imports than the others’?

[wvincent]

Adoptive father died when he was young, adoptive mother died last November due to flu complications. He bounced around between a couple other households afterwards. Apparently *shooter* legally bought the AR.

Thanks for that info.
Still, based on whats being reported, he never should have been allowed around that school.

[Hambo]

This situation is no different than any other violent encounter. Use of a gun, knife... is a LAST resort. Avoid, disengage... come first for the general public. However, once we reach the time when there are no other options to run, hide,... you need to have something else other than eat a bullet.

I agree that most teachers aren’t going to do it or even do it well, but those that want to should be enabled to carry

Last resort thinking though. We would be better served with more proactive security at schools.

Every secure business I’ve worked at had revolving doors activated by badge access or something similar. Every student has an RFID badge they use for lunch and snacks. Why not use that to gain entry into the facility. In the AM the doors are wide open for these secured campuses. Our school has the kids and parents walk through the office to enter the campus. Guess what? Nobody is EVER there to see who comes and goes. At least pretend. Just one more step to have to take for a nut job to gain entry.

More importantly, why are kids who are behavior issues allowed to get anywhere near a school, much less attend even though they were expelled? This is mind boggling to me. Education is a privilege, not a right. Your access to education is a right. Screw it up and tough titties IMO.

We keep putting people at risk to accommodate the bad apples. 90% of the time that risk is loss of educational experience cause teachers are farting around with the retards. The others it’s violence or other serious issues. What makes their rights more imports than the others’?

Older Florida schools had a very open campus style: just covered sidewalks and one door into a classroom. Even newer designs aren't anywhere near as secure as what you're talking about. Going to the office to sign in is more or less voluntary. I doubt there was any way to know this guy was even on campus.

I reported a kid last year for posting online threats. He was arrested and taken for involuntary psych eval. He faced the possibility of criminal charges which were not filed, and was expelled. There are two choices: online home school program, or attend a school with all the other problem kids. Since he was in middle school I doubt he's expelled forever.

[ralph]

Point; missed.

Please explain..I'm all ears

[Totem Polar]

May as well throw my .02 in.

This is every bit a 1A problem as a 2A, if not more so. The rate of school shootings from, say, 1900 to 1995, compared to 1995 to 2005, compared to 2005-2015 and from 2015 to Q1 of 2018 indicates that something is going on besides firearms, period.

My wife thinks it’s a complex cocktail, but one *clearly* catalyzed by social media. I agree. If anti-firearms folks think that the founding fathers "couldn’t have predicted modern weapons" (debatable, but another subject), then I counter that this isn’t anything compared to modern social media. If the founders could have predicted the most popular of those platforms, and the access they’d give the deranged, the 1A may well have been different. I’m totally serious.

Embracing controls on what information can be disseminated by corporate media—and I’m including the corporations owning FB, YT, Twitter, et al. Would cut down on both copycatting, and the ability of upcoming active killers to research the methods of their forebearers. Are we willing to go there with the 1A? I don’t know. I know that I sure do get greeted with a lot of silence when I bring up 1A control concepts in response to shootings in academic circles.

Speaking of, I spend a good amount of my time, and make over half my income, acting as an educator. Today, I will be on campus for 8 hours, in open buildings with no security. I’ve given this issue some thought.

One: there is no way that schools should be taking on more administrative load trying to manage an armed staff in any formal capacity. The reasons are all in the article posted by Rich_Jenkins, upthread. Bluntly; American educational admin can barely hold it together figuring how to meet accreditation, manage budgets, and plan for the future of education. Threat management, and use of force liability is something so far outside of any BOT’s collective lane (scattered random individual rare exceptions aside) as to be absurd.

The simplest solution here is for schools to admit it, and abdicate; fall back into the arms of the state. Let CCW be CCW, state-by-state. You live in MA, maybe less armed folks. You live in Utah, probably someone armed on campus, under this model. This in no way implies that teachers and janitors have any rights or responsibilities beyond the basic legal right for lawful defense of self and others as if they were in any public location.

In other words, treat schools like grocery stores, no more, no less, and let the messy chips fall where they will.

In the same way that a rare toddler grabs mom’s purse gun and shoots her from the shopping card booster chair, we may see a random accident, or negligence issue (eg. Gun left in a bathroom to be found by students), but in all, I trust people to do the right thing. Frankly, if we can’t rely on 51 out of 100 American kids to turn in a lost weapon found in the restroom, then we’ve got bigger problems than school shootings, as a whole.

I also like blues LEOSA idea. Nothing saying that expanding state CCW and volunteer service by retired LEO is mutually exclusive.

Ultimately, as has been noted around here before, shootings like this are just part of having a free and open society. Boiling down the gun control side of the debate moves us to a place where the state fights with organized crime to split the monopoly on control of violence. We know what that looks like thanks to places from Mexico to Somolia.

The 1A argument is more compelling, in part because the state is already fighting corporations for control of media. I’m not so sure that ‘the people’ would lose much by the enactment of rigid controls over the reporting of the worst degrees of base psychopathy. Germany may have their issues, but laws against free speech applied to Nazi symbolism doesn’t appear to be one of them.

Or we do nothing, and eat the shootings as a cost of doing business as a constitutional republic.

"Mental health" isn’t going to be an answer (without draconian reforms) and "gun control" isn’t going to be the answer (without draconian reforms).

The simplest reforms are probably going to be those that return some responsibility back to the populace (eg. Janitors with CCW, but they’re on their own liability-wise if they cock it up).

JMO, not that I have any more easy answers than anyone.

[TAZ]

Older Florida schools had a very open campus style: just covered sidewalks and one door into a classroom. Even newer designs aren't anywhere near as secure as what you're talking about. Going to the office to sign in is more or less voluntary. I doubt there was any way to know this guy was even on campus.

I reported a kid last year for posting online threats. He was arrested and taken for involuntary psych eval. He faced the possibility of criminal charges which were not filed, and was expelled. There are two choices: online home school program, or attend a school with all the other problem kids. Since he was in middle school I doubt he's expelled forever.

After Sandy Hook the schools in my area adopted the security recommendations of locking the campus during school hours. Before school begins or after school it’s a free for all though. My sons middle school has everyone cut through the office all day. Doors straight into the facility are locked from exterior access. You walk in through one set of doors and are faved with locked plate glass doors to the main facility. This creates a hallway leading to the office. Door to office is open and rarely is anyone there to insure adults don’t go in and bypass the locked second doors. You could easily coverts the exterior doors to revolving doors only people with badges can go through. Others would have to be granted access by someone in the office. The door to the office could be remotely locked as well. Anyone trying to sneak through the revolving doors could be snagged inside a plate glass cell or ejected by reversing the motors. Anyone making it through the doors could be locked in a plate glass hallway if someone was paying attention. These are temporary as any long gun would penetrate and you’d be able to get through, but would give time for teachers and students to lock themselves into class rooms. Well built structures with serious doors would be hard to get through. All giving people time to hide better, police to get there and if needed set up an ambush should the classroom doors get breached. Preferably an armed ambush if a teacher was so inclined.

Not rocket surgery. We put up these layers of security for our celebrities, politicians, certain financial institutions, but for our children we post signs. Fucked in the head is what that is.

[41magfan]

BTW: I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes towards an armed citizenry in this thread. I'm picking up a vibe of "I'm the only one professional/trained/good enough...".


Virtually ALL of the higher ups and perhaps half of the rank and file LEO's I worked with for 30 years had this attitude .... it's pervasive.

[critter]

Virtually ALL of the higher ups and perhaps half of the rank and file LEO's I worked with for 30 years had this attitude .... it's pervasive.

I've noticed something around the Atlanta area.. City police (though certainly there are exceptions #notallcitypolice (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=notallcitypolice) ) would prefer only they have guns. County Sheriffs/Deputies are exactly the opposite. It could be the more rural/semi-rural nature and the pro-2a upbringing of those who tend to go into the Sheriff's dept in their area, lower crime rates in general, whatever, but there is an apparent difference in mentality between our local jurisdictions.

[pangloss]

I'm a native of Mississippi and after living away for about half my life, I was finally able to move home a couple of years ago. While Mississippi is at the bottom of most lists, we lead the nation in childhood vaccination rates and have some of the most permissive firearms carry laws in the country. If a permit holder takes the "instructor course," the number of NPEs the permit hold has to recognize drops dramatically. Wanna be the parent reader in your daughter's kindergarten class next Friday? No problem, don't forget your Glock 19. I would need to double check this next point, but I think Mississippi's stand your ground law shields the shooter from civil suits if the shooting is ruled justifiable. It seems to me that adopting these policies in other states is an easy first step. Obviously they are not a complete solution, but even marginally decreasing the attractiveness of soft targets would likely yield some benefit, however difficult to measure.

As far as teachers carrying, Glenn's point about an accidental shooting being a greater tragedy than an intentional one has always puzzled me. For instance, what if yesterday Timmie Taurus and Julie J-frame (as mentioned several posts ago) responded and accidentally killed six students while Evil Shooter also killed six students before Julie finally landed a good shot. The death of those 12 students is obviously a mathematical improvement over the deaths of 17 students, but the tone of the larger conversation (not just this thread) is that the deaths of the six students that were accidentally killed completely outweigh the deaths of the 17.

Lastly, as for politicizing the event, if I were a gun control proponent, I would exploit every single mass shooting event to its fullest potential to achieve my goal of reducing the number of firearms in circulation. Our side's feigned outrage at amplifying the gun control exhortations "before the bodies are even cold" has always puzzled me. My assumption is that this tactic was originally the NRA's attempt to suppress the gun control argument for a couple of news cycles until shock of the news of the shooting wears off. Based on what happened in Australia, I'm all for employing this approach as a tactic to stifle the pro gun control arguments, but I view it very clearly as a tactic and not a moral imperative.

[dontshakepandas]

I generally try to stay out of conversations like this, but since we keep seeing events like this my thoughts are starting to pile up and I need to clear my head. I feel like this is probably the best place since I think it may be one of the last communities on Earth where the average IQ is high enough to tie a pair of shoes. Sorry in advance for the length. I’ll do my best not to ramble.

Any time something like this happens, people start pointing fingers at the one thing that they think is to blame. The left says we have too many guns and the right says we don’t have enough guns. The reality is that our system is failing in multiple different ways that all compound to create this result. Some are specific to school killings, and others apply to all types of mass killings.

As a society, the first thing we need to look at is what, other than terrorism, makes people want to commit mass killings. Some of these factors are going to be specific to the individual such as perceived wrongs or mental illness, but other factors seem to encourage that type of violence across the board.

I feel the biggest, and likely most obvious, of these is the fame given to the murderers after the event. Our media puts their picture on every TV screen and website and says their name over and over. This encourages future similar acts by making it seem like committing that type of violence is a path from being nobody to somebody, or a way to be remembered. We shouldn’t publicize these people, we shouldn’t show their face, and we shouldn’t say their names.

You would think this would be relatively easy, but while the media has no problem asking people to give up their rights for the illusion of safety, they aren’t as willing to give up a few dollars for something that could make a real difference. It is also a lot harder for them to push their agenda and spread fear without plastering the shooters face on every screen they possibly can. The First Amendment protects the freedom of the press, but that doesn’t mean that the People shouldn’t hold them accountable for what they do.
I think another factor that is more specific to school killings is that “zero tolerance policies” have taken away other options for kids to resolve conflict. Sometimes things aren’t going to be resolved with a calm conversation, and we’ve taken away the ability for things to be resolved with a fist fight. I grew up on the starting edge of this, but it has devolved to a situation where it seems like common sense is no longer allowed to be applied.

These days even defending yourself in a fist fight results in a suspension. Kids are also told that any type of incident like this will go on their permanent record and could affect college admissions and their entire future. Some kids don’t care about that type of thing, but for others it can be another escalating factor. They are getting bullied and picked on every day, and think that if they fight back it could ruin their entire future so they continue to hold it in until they reach a breaking point and at that point they may feel like they won’t have a future either way so they may as well escalate past just a fight.

That said, some people are just evil and want to do bad things. The world is a dangerous place and there is no amount of laws we can pass that will change that. I think this is something that people refuse to accept. It is actually pretty remarkable how much safer our society is than any other place or time on Earth, but that doesn’t give people the right to walk around like a complete moron and just expect to be safe.

One example that jumps to mind is the people at Disney World who let their child play by the water and when the kid was attacked by an alligator they sued Disney World because there wasn’t a sign saying there were alligators. This is still Earth, and nature still exists, and it is on you and only you to keep yourself and your loved ones safe because nobody can get rid of every possible risk for you. The fact that people have that expectation and are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves is a huge cause for concern. I’m not willing to trade my rights for more laws that give people the illusion of safety, and you shouldn’t be either.

While we are on the topic of laws, the entire gun control debate is completely out of control and has gotten to a point where it is absurd. People on both sides often say they support commons sense gun laws, but I’d argue that at this point there is no such thing. This topic may be where I stray from the typical gun enthusiast mindset a little bit.
Neither side has any trust for the other at this point, and are too set on the extremes to really consider a compromise at this point. I think that does all of us a disservice. We can use the bump stock conversation as an example of this. I feel like bump stocks are completely useless, and actually encourage less safety by giving people less control over each round fired, and I know that many people agree with this. So what happens when they try to pass legislation to ban them?

Many people on the right are completely against even having the conversation just because it is gun related and therefore absolutely protected, even though it is useless. The people on the left who are writing the legislation do everything they can to make it vague and try to outlaw “rate increasing devices” so that they can potentially attack things, such as better triggers, and work towards their extreme agenda of banning everything. This doesn’t leave much room in the middle for actual common sense compromise, and we end up accomplishing nothing.

I think we can all agree that guns, or even bump stocks, aren’t the problem here. Our goal should be to keep all guns from specific people instead of specific guns from all people. Identifying those people isn’t always easy because sometimes the warning signs are hard to see, but sometimes they aren’t. In this specific case there were all kinds of warning signs. Lots of people saying they expected this and that he has made threats before.

We need to have a realistic way to investigate this type of behavior and monitor and remove weapons when there is a real threat. Of course, just being the quiet weird kid isn’t enough to actually go that far, but when you have somebody who is actually making threats and nothing is getting done, the system is broken.
The other thing that gets brought up often with school shootings is solving the problem by giving teachers guns. I think it’s already been said one hundred times in this thread alone that giving guns to people who don’t want them and aren’t prepared to use them will just make things worse. I’m surrounded by teachers in my life and most of them definitely don’t have the mindset or ability to react to stress in a way that would make that helpful in any way, and most of them wouldn’t want a gun if you gave it to them for free. However, I don’t think you should take that ability away from the people who do have the mindset and ability to provide some protection, even if its small.
It is also unrealistic to expect the teachers who do want to carry to actually be able to stop the threat before the event is already tragic. While I do think knowing that somebody there may fight back might deter some people from committing these acts, it won’t stop them all. I think we need to see more effort put into preventing the act from occurring in the first place.

If we actually want to protect kids we need to put some real security measures in place. I went to school in the aftermath of Columbine and had to deal with a lot of bomb threats and other things like that. As a response, my schools had metal detectors, and we weren’t allowed to bring bags that weren’t see through. Why are we not seeing that minimal amount of effort for the problems we are having today? Using doors that aren’t made of glass and having SROs near any possible entry points could help too. There are a lot of things that we could do but aren’t doing, and the current method clearly isn’t working. Posting a sign that says no guns and then trusting the honor system is not going to be a successful system because these people looking to murder people have no honor.

People like to bring up the cost of these security measures as a reason not to do them. A lot of schools don’t have the money to implement some of the changes, but that doesn’t mean they can’t make some improvements. Other schools have more than enough money to implement any changes that they wanted, and these events aren’t always happening in poor districts. The school I went to just spent north of 70 million dollars on a football stadium, yet isn’t enforcing the same security measures that were there when I was a kid. They may have to make sacrifices in other areas to get the security they need, but that won’t happen until they make it a priority, and to them it is easier to blame the guns and try to take away our rights than take responsibility themselves.

[JodyH]

Lastly, as for politicizing the event, if I were a gun control proponent, I would exploit every single mass shooting event to its fullest potential to achieve my goal of reducing the number of firearms in circulation. Our side's feigned outrage at amplifying the gun control exhortations "before the bodies are even cold" has always puzzled me. My assumption is that this tactic was originally the NRA's attempt to suppress the gun control argument for a couple of news cycles until shock of the news of the shooting wears off. Based on what happened in Australia, I'm all for employing this approach as a tactic to stifle the pro gun control arguments, but I view it very clearly as a tactic and not a moral imperative.
Exactly.
Publicly calling for a respectful "cooling off period" is as much politicizing a tragedy as is dancing in the blood of the victims.

[rob_s]

Older Florida schools had a very open campus style: just covered sidewalks and one door into a classroom. Even newer designs aren't anywhere near as secure as what you're talking about. Going to the office to sign in is more or less voluntary. I doubt there was any way to know this guy was even on campus.

I reported a kid last year for posting online threats. He was arrested and taken for involuntary psych eval. He faced the possibility of criminal charges which were not filed, and was expelled. There are two choices: online home school program, or attend a school with all the other problem kids. Since he was in middle school I doubt he's expelled forever.

What district are you in?

In Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade they are all either designed new to funnel all visitors into the office first, or have been modified to do so with fences and walls. At my kids' public elementary schools in two of those counties you even had to be buzzed in to get into the office.

Although now that I type this, I don't think the law/policy applies to high schools.

[Peally]

For the record I wear Salomons, I don't even tie my shoes. #speshulgeneration (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=speshulgeneration)

[farscott]

The FBI is not looking good on this. The optics on this are really bad. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5395603/FBI-warned-Nikolas-Cruz-September.html


The FBI was unable to uncover the identity of YouTube user 'Nikolas Cruz' after a bail bondsman in Mississippi alerted federal officials when a man now believed to be the school shooter of the same name posted an alarming message online last year.

YouTube vlogger Ben Bennight alerted the FBI to a comment shared by Cruz on one of his videos back in September, when the boy wrote: 'I'm going to be a professional school shooter.'

Bennight revealed that the FBI was quick to respond to the concerning statement, arriving at his office the very next day to find out if he knew anything about the young man.

That was after he called a local field agent, revealing that his initial attempts to send in a screengrab of the comment failed when the email address he found listed on the federal agency's website came back with a domain error saying that it did not exist.

He finally heard back from the FBI on Wednesday, when they called with some additional questions after 17 people were murdered at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

On Thursday, Special Agent Rob Laskey revealed that the the agency was unable to learn anything about the person who posted the comment.

'No other information was included with that comment which would indicate a time, location, or the true identity of the person who made the comment,' said Laskey.

'The FBI conducted data reviews, checks, but was unable to further identify the person who actually made the comment.'

[JodyH]

The FBI is not looking good on this. The optics on this are really bad. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5395603/FBI-warned-Nikolas-Cruz-September.html
Just guessing here, but I think it'd be difficult to track down a YouTube commenter without enough evidence of a possible crime to get a search warrant.
A "drive by" non-specific comment about shooting up schools would be a hard sell to justify a search warrant and I don't think Google et al is just going to hand over user data without a warrant.
No way to prove who did what (even with a real name) without IP and other data as supporting evidence.
Can't just start knocking on the door of every Nikolas Cruz in the country or even "the" Nikolas Cruz's door without something more than a generic statement (even if it's troubling), especially when there's probably hundreds of similar comments reported daily around the country.

[Casual Friday]

PF has become a strange place.

[farscott]

Just guessing here, but I think it'd be difficult to track down a YouTube commenter without enough evidence of a possible crime to get a search warrant.
A "drive by" non-specific comment about shooting up schools would be a hard sell to justify a search warrant and I don't think Google et al is just going to hand over user data without a warrant.
No way to prove who did what (even with a real name) without IP and other data as supporting evidence.
Can't just start knocking on the door of every Nikolas Cruz in the country or even "the" Nikolas Cruz's door without something more than a generic statement (even if it's troubling), especially when there's probably hundreds of similar comments reported daily around the country.

That is why I used the word "optics". It looks bad although it may not actually be. But to a people whose idea of LE capabilities comes from TV and movies, it looks like the FBI missed another chance to save lives.

[Gadfly]

Just a quick thought.

People want an "active shooter response plan". Perhaps with drills for teachers and students. Perhaps a special alarm...

But the person shooting up the school is a student at the school 98% of the time. Soooo if that person has been to all the active shooter drills since the first grade, wouldn't he just alter his plan to negate the security measures, or use them to his advantage somehow? Much like the vaunted School resource officer... if I know there is an armed uniformed officer on campus, guess who my first victim will be with a shot to the back of the head up close. Any response plan will possibly be know in advance by the perpetrator. That doesn't mean "have no plan", it just means the plan probably wont be very effective.

One of the few things I like the ideal of is the T shaped aluminum door braces that drop into the floor. Easy and cheap way to brace a door, cant really be "shot" open. The other solution is the administrators being able to electronically lock down doors much like at a jail/prison. But then you are giving a death sentence to kids who are trapped in the area with the shooter. But, you cut off his movement, potentially his supply of victims could be lower... which sounds good unless you are trapped in the lockdown area with the shooter.

Just some thoughts. I have no answers.

[11B10]

I know this reads like a request, it’s not.

My bad, Tom. Just indulging myself in my specialty: thread drift. Sorry.

[RevolverRob]

The simplest solution here is for schools to admit it, and abdicate; fall back into the arms of the state. Let CCW be CCW, state-by-state. You live in MA, maybe less armed folks. You live in Utah, probably someone armed on campus, under this model. This in no way implies that teachers and janitors have any rights or responsibilities beyond the basic legal right for lawful defense of self and others as if they were in any public location.

In other words, treat schools like grocery stores, no more, no less, and let the messy chips fall where they will.


I don't have a ton of time. You are correct, this is the solution. The other solution - and as a scientist I like data - is to not ignore the data (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17428-Mass-Shootings-and-Data-Free-Zones).

The only thing that has stopped me from publishing these results is that it will negatively impact my career to sign my name to it, at this stage. And with each subsequent workplace shooting event, I become more tempted to expand the dataset and publish it.

The data suggest that not only are gun-free zones dangerous, but not intervening with the shooter (i.e., "hide and run") are the wrong responses.



Or we do nothing, and eat the shootings as a cost of doing business as a constitutional republic.

"Mental health" isn’t going to be an answer (without draconian reforms) and "gun control" isn’t going to be the answer (without draconian reforms).

JMO, not that I have any more easy answers than anyone.

This is precisely the case. For those who call for jihad on jihadists to those who call for war on guns to those who call for war on drugs. People ARE stupid and will do stupid things. The numerical percentage of those affected by these "tragedies" is minute compared to the damage done by expanding the police state and governmental powers to address them.

The irony is palpable, to me at least, that the same people who call for gun control call for demilitarization of the police - and the same people who call for tighter restrictions on radical terrorism are the same people saying that there shouldn't be tighter gun control. I'm not saying that this things are causally linked, they aren't, but the cognitive dissonance is awe-inspiring.

[AMC]

It's the human condition that we're looking for answers to this atrocity right now, even though at the core of the issue, there isn't one that's politically doable, in the literal sense. SRO's in every school? Nope...never gonna happen. We have 1-2 SRO's in each district in my town...and we're the second largest metro agency in California. My district has 1....for 2 high schools and 2 middle schools and 3 elementary schools. In one small district. Maybe armed campus security, maybe CCW possessing staff who are willing and undergo training, and I like Blues' idea a lot, too. But even if successful, these measures will displace the problem, not eliminate it. And maybe that's all we can do.

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people. And the youth are getting worse. Not all...maybe not even most, but a significant amount. Too many of the youth I interact with, be it at work or friends of my kids, are nihilistic, empty shells. They respect nothing, and value nothing but their own immediate entertainment. Again, clealry not all....I know some great kids, with great values and drive, but the percentage of the population suffering from the weird combo of nihilism and narcissism is growing, and we're producing more of this kind of freak.

We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.

[critter]

It's the human condition that we're looking for answers to this atrocity right now, even though at the core of the issue, there isn't one that's politically doable, in the literal sense. SRO's in every school? Nope...never gonna happen. We have 1-2 SRO's in each district in my town...and we're the second largest metro agency in California. My district has 1....for 2 high schools and 2 middle schools and 3 elementary schools. In one small district. Maybe armed campus security, maybe CCW possessing staff who are willing and undergo training, and I like Blues' idea a lot, too. But even if successful, these measures will displace the problem, not eliminate it. And maybe that's all we can do.

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people. And the youth are getting worse. Not all...maybe not even most, but a significant amount. Too many of the youth I interact with, be it at work or friends of my kids, are nihilistic, empty shells. They respect nothing, and value nothing but their own immediate entertainment. Again, clealry not all....I know some great kids, with great values and drive, but the percentage of the population suffering from the weird combo of nihilism and narcissism is growing, and we're producing more of this kind of freak.

We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.

Just bears repeating... and as you point out -- not an accidental situation.

[WobblyPossum]

The FBI is not looking good on this. The optics on this are really bad. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5395603/FBI-warned-Nikolas-Cruz-September.html

There wasn’t much to go on if the account linked to that comment didn’t have the guys name and date of birth in the publicly viewable page. I don’t know what the standards are for the federal side but in my state, I need a subpoena to get subscriber info such as names, email addresses, etc tied to an account. Considering you can set up a YouTube account with a throwaway email and without using your real name, it would be a string of subpoenas to each company revealed with the previous subpoena. Each subpoena would have to be approved by my supervisor, a prosecutor, and a judge. All for a non specific comment like the one in that article. That’s a lot of work and time. It sounds callous but without more than what was posted in the comment, most officers wouldn’t go through with it, myself included. There are too many other cases to work and there are millions of comments like this one all over social media. They can’t all be investigated to the fullest extent possible.

In my locale, a prosecutor can petition the court to open an inquest (subpoena) for practically anything but they generally want to see at least reasonable suspicion of a crime. A drive by comment alone, like the one in question, is a stretch when writing up a subpoena to begin with. JodyH had a pretty good explanation too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It is tragic that both sets of party extremes will see this (as usual) as an opportunity for campaigning. All politicians are ...

About carry on school grounds, I agree that it should just be left for CCW to be legal. I don't like the pseudo-cop teacher as I said before.

Should such a person get training - yes. Should schools or the state government help with that - why not but not as a prerequisite.
About collateral damage and kids: It's variant of the Trolley Car problem (well known in philosophy and behavioral science - a trolley is hurtling towards its doom full of people. You can pull a switch to a safe siding. However, on the siding is an innocent who will be killed). Do you do it for the survival of the many is more important that the few. Or do you consider the value of the person to be killed. A scuzzy appearing homeless person or a mom with baby in stroller.

Folks will save the baby (as we have biological predilection to save the young - that's why babies look so cute, to evoke this principle).

Note - not for some in matches. I saw one save the baby run (my picture doing this was on Given's newsletter) where a well-known trainer person, threw the baby a long distance to save time and points. In a local USPSA match, a fine fellow held the 'baby' by the top of its head, hand on top of skull as it gave a better shooting solution.

In a FOF, I was actually the bad guy and had the baby as a hostage. Interesting when incoming hostage rescue fire started - I turned my body to shield the body. AAR - hey, you are the BG - why do that? See it's instinctual and/or I'm a daddy.

[wvincent]

I don't have a ton of time. You are correct, this is the solution. The other solution - and as a scientist I like data - is to not ignore the data (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17428-Mass-Shootings-and-Data-Free-Zones).

The only thing that has stopped me from publishing these results is that it will negatively impact my career to sign my name to it, at this stage. And with each subsequent workplace shooting event, I become more tempted to expand the dataset and publish it.

The data suggest that not only are gun-free zones dangerous, but not intervening with the shooter (i.e., "hide and run") are the wrong responses.



This is precisely the case. For those who call for jihad on jihadists to those who call for war on guns to those who call for war on drugs. People ARE stupid and will do stupid things. The numerical percentage of those affected by these "tragedies" is minute compared to the damage done by expanding the police state and governmental powers to address them.

The irony is palpable, to me at least, that the same people who call for gun control call for demilitarization of the police - and the same people who call for tighter restrictions on radical terrorism are the same people saying that there shouldn't be tighter gun control. I'm not saying that this things are causally linked, they aren't, but the cognitive dissonance is awe-inspiring.

Oh you Scientists and your damn data!:rolleyes:
Sincerely, thank you for doing that piece of work.
Really nice to get the emotion sorted off, and look at actual fact.
Again, thank you.

[Peally]

Matches it doesn't matter because it's not training for anything. Toy babies are absolutely no different from any other stupid prop the MD decides to use. I wouldn't look into it at all, the people not gaming it aren't trying and are at a direct handicap.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not to divert a serious thread, but don't take the baby match incidents seriously. I also got an attaboy at the NTI because we had a house entry to save our friend inside. We were arriving with pizza. I threw away the pizza with vigor. Some folks actually ran the shoot house carrying the pizza. Now scientists like Rob and I can analyze this for insight - OR maybe not.

Not dropping the pizza under stress is interesting though. Shows how you mind gets fixated at times. That's a real emergency response fail.

[scw2]

Someone shared an op-ed today and the premise is any of the primary solutions that are typically being proposed (ignoring arguments of efficacy) involve serious trade-offs for freedom of press/speech, gun rights, and right to due process.

The one line that stood out to me was "There are only easy answers if you are willing to sacrifice rights you don't care about, and that other people do."

Sounds about right.

[farscott]

There wasn’t much to go on if the account linked to that comment didn’t have the guys name and date of birth in the publicly viewable page. I don’t know what the standards are for the federal side but in my state, I need a subpoena to get subscriber info such as names, email addresses, etc tied to an account. Considering you can set up a YouTube account with a throwaway email and without using your real name, it would be a string of subpoenas to each company revealed with the previous subpoena. Each subpoena would have to be approved by my supervisor, a prosecutor, and a judge. All for a non specific comment like the one in that article. That’s a lot of work and time. It sounds callous but without more than what was posted in the comment, most officers wouldn’t go through with it, myself included. There are too many other cases to work and there are millions of comments like this one all over social media. They can’t all be investigated to the fullest extent possible.

In my locale, a prosecutor can petition the court to open an inquest (subpoena) for practically anything but they generally want to see at least reasonable suspicion of a crime. A drive by comment alone, like the one in question, is a stretch when writing up a subpoena to begin with. JodyH had a pretty good explanation too.


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While I agree with everything above, imagine yourself as a layman with no experience in the workings of law enforcement. Then imagine what the media tells you LE does. On every CSI show, all crimes, unless it was a cliffhanger, were solved within sixty minutes, including commercials. Once you have that mindset, imagine how the FBI looks, especially as they contacted the guy who made the report right after the shooting.

While LE looks at that as a great followup (and it really is as that link is not simple to make and somebody looked at months old notes), CBS TV viewer sees, "Late to the party again".

[Chance]

Even if logistics supported SROs, civil liberties organizations wouldn't. From an article via the ACLU (https://www.aclu.org/blog/racial-justice/race-and-inequality-education/it-time-get-real-about-school-policing) [and I'm just sharing this, not opining on anything]:


According to the U.S. Department of Education, 1.6 million children go to public schools that have police officers but no counselors. Some 24 percent of public elementary schools and 42 percent of public high schools have sworn police officers. Three of the five largest school districts in the country hire more security officers than counselors.

Black students are 2.3 times as likely to receive a referral to law enforcement or be subject to a school-related arrest as white students. And Black and Latino students are more likely to go to schools that have resident police no matter the level of crime in the surrounding neighborhood or misbehavior at the school.


I can't find the links at the moment, but there have been threads on PF that have discussed SROs in the past. The cops assigned to the position don't seem to care for it much, due to the awkward contrasts between various aspects of the job.

[RevolverRob]

Now scientists like Rob and I can analyze this for insight - OR maybe not.

Not dropping the pizza under stress is interesting though. Shows how you mind gets fixated at times. That's a real emergency response fail.

Man, sometimes I'm standing there scanning the block while walking the dog and my dog starts to take a piss. All the sudden, I realize he's pissing on my foot. My immediate response is to stare, stupidly, at the ground and the dog, before stepping away. What's that say about me, doc?

Then there are the dreams...last night I was in class, naked, and got up to leave and walked out normally and went on about my day, not the least big* concerned about my (lack of) clothing. But it's when I ran into a package that I needed to cut open and I didn't have a knife? That I panicked. - I don't think I could be a nudist.

*Hahaha, Freudian slip? Should be "least bit". But I've left it here to preserve the hilarity.
___

Solutions to these problems are not easy. And the hand-wringing I see from folks (not necessarily here), suggests to me that many haven't used a judicious amount of brain power to think about them.

The disturbing part is...these people vote.

___

[Kukuforguns]

For people wondering why there are more school shootings, I recommend this article (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence):

In the elegant theoretical model Granovetter proposed, riots were started by people with a threshold of zero—instigators willing to throw a rock through a window at the slightest provocation. Then comes the person who will throw a rock if someone else goes first. He has a threshold of one. Next in is the person with the threshold of two. His qualms are overcome when he sees the instigator and the instigator’s accomplice. Next to him is someone with a threshold of three, who would never break windows and loot stores unless there were three people right in front of him who were already doing that—and so on up to the hundredth person, a righteous upstanding citizen who nonetheless could set his beliefs aside and grab a camera from the broken window of the electronics store if everyone around him was grabbing cameras from the electronics store.

* * *

His argument has a second implication. We misleadingly use the word “copycat” to describe contagious behavior—implying that new participants in an epidemic act in a manner identical to the source of their infection. But rioters are not homogeneous. If a riot evolves as it spreads, starting with the hotheaded rock thrower and ending with the upstanding citizen, then rioters are a profoundly heterogeneous group.

Finally, Granovetter’s model suggests that riots are sometimes more than spontaneous outbursts. If they evolve, it means they have depth and length and a history. Granovetter thought that the threshold hypothesis could be used to describe everything from elections to strikes, and even matters as prosaic as how people decide it’s time to leave a party. He was writing in 1978, long before teen-age boys made a habit of wandering through their high schools with assault rifles. But what if the way to explain the school-shooting epidemic is to go back and use the Granovetterian model—to think of it as a slow-motion, ever-evolving riot, in which each new participant’s action makes sense in reaction to and in combination with those who came before?

Also I second Gadfly's earlier point, when schools drill for mass shooter events, the schools are inadvertently training the shooter too. One of the survivors of this recent massacre made this very point.

[TheNewbie]

It's the human condition that we're looking for answers to this atrocity right now, even though at the core of the issue, there isn't one that's politically doable, in the literal sense. SRO's in every school? Nope...never gonna happen. We have 1-2 SRO's in each district in my town...and we're the second largest metro agency in California. My district has 1....for 2 high schools and 2 middle schools and 3 elementary schools. In one small district. Maybe armed campus security, maybe CCW possessing staff who are willing and undergo training, and I like Blues' idea a lot, too. But even if successful, these measures will displace the problem, not eliminate it. And maybe that's all we can do.

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people. And the youth are getting worse. Not all...maybe not even most, but a significant amount. Too many of the youth I interact with, be it at work or friends of my kids, are nihilistic, empty shells. They respect nothing, and value nothing but their own immediate entertainment. Again, clealry not all....I know some great kids, with great values and drive, but the percentage of the population suffering from the weird combo of nihilism and narcissism is growing, and we're producing more of this kind of freak.

We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.

Wow, excellent post.

[farscott]

It's the human condition that we're looking for answers to this atrocity right now, even though at the core of the issue, there isn't one that's politically doable, in the literal sense. SRO's in every school? Nope...never gonna happen. We have 1-2 SRO's in each district in my town...and we're the second largest metro agency in California. My district has 1....for 2 high schools and 2 middle schools and 3 elementary schools. In one small district. Maybe armed campus security, maybe CCW possessing staff who are willing and undergo training, and I like Blues' idea a lot, too. But even if successful, these measures will displace the problem, not eliminate it. And maybe that's all we can do.

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people. And the youth are getting worse. Not all...maybe not even most, but a significant amount. Too many of the youth I interact with, be it at work or friends of my kids, are nihilistic, empty shells. They respect nothing, and value nothing but their own immediate entertainment. Again, clealry not all....I know some great kids, with great values and drive, but the percentage of the population suffering from the weird combo of nihilism and narcissism is growing, and we're producing more of this kind of freak.

We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.

Interesting comments on the school SRO. In my rural area, every county school has at least one full-time SRO. There is always at least one uniformed deputy with a regular patrol vehicle parked by the front entrance while the deputy is inside the school building. Now these are smaller schools as my daughter's graduating class has about sixty students, but there is always one regular patrol deputy on site during school hours. I believe the school system funds the Sheriff's department.

[olstyn]

Thus issue us wholly unrelated unless you have proof any if these shooters were that.

I never said or even implied otherwise; I was simply responding to willie's post. Agreed that it's off topic for the thread.

[Trukinjp13]

Most schools do have to fund a liaison officer or police officers. Problem is some districts can only afford one liaison officer with multiple schools. And on top of that the country districts are very spread out. It can take quite a while to reach a school from another. Sometimes cost can be split with the county. Another big problem with country districts is that they do not have a actual police department. Usually a substation for the county police.

Gun free zones are horrible. But they are multiplied when factor in how long response time can be. Concealed carry in schools need to happen. But there also needs to be some sort of proper training for the staff and plans that are put in place. I do not believe this means everyone should have to have a gun. But the ones that are comfortable for sure.

In a dream world to me, each school would have a officer and a k9. But that is just my opinion.

I am of the opinion that if these peeps knew what kind of threat they would face as soon as they step in them buildings they may think twice. But then again, I was the guy who pushed back at the bullies. They usually do not mess with what they are afraid of.

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[AMC]

As to the SRO issue....there's a large movement afoot, associated with Black Lives Matter, to De-Police the schools, and end all SRO programs....so that those facist Jack booted pigs don't attack children of color...or something. In my city the Schools are not fiendly to LE as a whole, and in some cases outright hostile (as in teachers openly on video inciting kids during a near riot to fight the police). This attitude is more pervasive, especially in urban areas, than many realize. The idea that the schools want, or will support, more security, is mistaken. Maybe some rural schools where reason still holds sway, but not in the cities, or many suburbs. Our local school board actually tried to pass rules requiring that officers leave their guns outside before entering a school. The chief at the time disabused them of that stupidity, and had to warn a couple of principles that they faced arrest if they interfered with our officers....but that simply doesn't deter these folks, especially when they know they won't face negative consequences as a teacher for being arrested for interfering!

[blues]

This is only meant to be mildly sarcastic as I am in no way making light of the tragedy and am at a loss regarding how to solve the issue in a way that works for everyone.

It seems that the optimal school design going forward needs to be modeled thusly...(the major weakness being if the threat is already inside the walls.)

https://tabletopdeutschland.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/fort-10.jpg

[Trukinjp13]

This is only meant to be mildly sarcastic as I am in no way making light of the tragedy and am at a loss regarding how to solve the issue in a way that works for everyone.

It seems that the optimal school design going forward needs to be modeled thusly...(the major weakness being if the threat is already inside the walls.)

https://tabletopdeutschland.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/fort-10.jpg

Sarcasm can also be truth... realistically we can not do anything to absolutely stop these horrible acts. But I think we can do something to slow the damage.


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[41magfan]

I really don’t see this school security thing as being terribly difficult to address. It’s like anything else you’re trying to protect, you’ve just got to decide how much time, effort and money you’re willing to throw at it. The deciding factor in that respect ultimately boils down to the value you place on the thing you’re trying to protect.

We all know what passive measures can be put in place to mitigate threats, but I don’t think we want our schools to look like prisons and we probably couldn’t afford it anyway. We could station an armed security staff on-site (not just a wandering SRO or two) but that too would cost more than we could afford.

There really is only one practical measure that works in a public setting in an open society and that’s increasing the number of potential on-site first responders. There are staff members at every school in America that are perfectly capable of defending themselves and others. That doesn’t cost much and all that is necessary to maximize their potential is some training and coordination.

All this BS about them “acting as agents of school system” is an exaggerated concern. As volunteer participants they should/would be free to act with the same discretion they would under any other circumstance. The potential for someone making a mistake shouldn't paralyze us into inaction ..... that's the reason you have liability insurance.

When viewed with a critical eye, it’s embarrassingly obvious that the 911 hijacker’s plan really wasn’t very sophisticated or detailed. They got over on us because we had NOTHING in place (outside of passive measures) to deal with an active threat. Does that sound familiar?

My gut says history will repeat itself.

[ranger]

I've noticed something around the Atlanta area.. City police (though certainly there are exceptions #notallcitypolice (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=notallcitypolice) ) would prefer only they have guns. County Sheriffs/Deputies are exactly the opposite. It could be the more rural/semi-rural nature and the pro-2a upbringing of those who tend to go into the Sheriff's dept in their area, lower crime rates in general, whatever, but there is an apparent difference in mentality between our local jurisdictions.

I live NW of Atlanta and work inside Atlanta. I am not LEO but I suggest that the attitude of "city police" versus "county Sheriffs/Deputies" that you reference may reflect the attitudes of the political leaders (and therefore the senior LEO leaders) in the Atlanta city versus the suburbs.

[Trukinjp13]

I think some people need to realize most districts are struggling as it is. Funds are low, districts are privatizing staff. Bringing non district employees into the buildings and driving your kids home on the buses. Most districts simply could not afford the man power it would take to properly secure the schools. Most local law enforcements can not spare the man power to stay in buildings. I am sure they also do not have funds to hire however many cops are necessary. We would have to raise taxes in villages/counties etc. to come up with the money. I imagine the number is high.


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[TAZ]

I think some people need to realize most districts are struggling as it is. Funds are low, districts are privatizing staff. Bringing non district employees into the buildings and driving your kids home on the buses. Most districts simply could not afford the man power it would take to properly secure the schools. Most local law enforcements can not spare the man power to stay in buildings. I am sure they also do not have funds to hire however many cops are necessary. We would have to raise taxes in villages/counties etc. to come up with the money. I imagine the number is high.


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To a point, I tend to agree on the topic of budgets being stretched. However, as with EVERYTHING government the waste can be trimmed and $$ made available for updates security should the desire of the local board be there. Personally, I don’t think the desire is there for many reasons. Primarily because the game of percentages is in the school districts favor. This is a HUGE mixed blessing. On one hand your kids have a better chance to win the powerball, then get struck by lightning while playing golf with Tiger Woods than getting involved in a mass shooting at school. As such admin can’t truly justify the fund shuffling required and the ensuing onslaught of whiners when certain non educational services are cut.

There is also the stupid liberal factor which has already been discussed.

[HCM]

http://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/3-students-arrested-for-guns-on-campus-2-students-arrested-for-threats/287-519358612

3 students arrested for guns on campus, 2 students arrested for threats

So the day after this shooting you have three kids bring guns and ammo to school and two make threats to shoot up their school. This is just in 4 schools in DFW. How many similar incidents occurred nationwide today ?

If this doesn’t demonstrate the social disfunction factor in school shootings I don’t know what will.

[HCM]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/15/florida-high-school-suspect-nikolas-cruz-claimed-to-hear-voices-in-his-head-report-says.html

Florida high school suspect Nikolas Cruz claimed to hear voices in his head, report says

This was interesting as well:


Jordan Jereb, the leader of the Republic of Florida, a white nationalist militia, previously told The Associated Press that Cruz was a group member and participated in paramilitary drills in Tallahassee. But Leon County Sheriff spokesman Lt. Grady Jordan told the outlet that his office had “very solid” information on the group and “there’s no known ties” between Cruz and the group “that we have that we can connect.”

Question for Glenn - is the shooters exfil plan, which nearly worked, incompatible with him actually being schizophrenic?

[Duelist]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/15/florida-high-school-suspect-nikolas-cruz-claimed-to-hear-voices-in-his-head-report-says.html

Florida high school suspect Nikolas Cruz claimed to hear voices in his head, report says

This was interesting as well:



Question for Glenn - is the shooters exfil plan, which nearly worked, incompatible with him actually being schizophrenic?

Schizophrenia doesn't mean unable to trip over a workable plan.

[11B10]

It's the human condition that we're looking for answers to this atrocity right now, even though at the core of the issue, there isn't one that's politically doable, in the literal sense. SRO's in every school? Nope...never gonna happen. We have 1-2 SRO's in each district in my town...and we're the second largest metro agency in California. My district has 1....for 2 high schools and 2 middle schools and 3 elementary schools. In one small district. Maybe armed campus security, maybe CCW possessing staff who are willing and undergo training, and I like Blues' idea a lot, too. But even if successful, these measures will displace the problem, not eliminate it. And maybe that's all we can do.

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people. And the youth are getting worse. Not all...maybe not even most, but a significant amount. Too many of the youth I interact with, be it at work or friends of my kids, are nihilistic, empty shells. They respect nothing, and value nothing but their own immediate entertainment. Again, clealry not all....I know some great kids, with great values and drive, but the percentage of the population suffering from the weird combo of nihilism and narcissism is growing, and we're producing more of this kind of freak.

We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.



And....we continue to feed this growing segment of our youth - more "electronics," with better "reality." I'm a firm believer that the better those games/movies, etc. get, the more confused a borderline kid becomes. To them, it's a very good game -in their heads.

[fixer]

We didn't used to have these problems, and we had less 'gun control', so what changed. Obviously, it's the people.We've thrown out our values, our institutions indoctrinate young folks with a contempt for our history and values, entertainment is a cesspool of nihilism and violence, and we're shocked, SHOCKED! To discover gambling at Ric's. No law, no legislation, no security measure, no tool is going to fix our problem, because the problem is still inside us.


Salient points and very much in line with my current thoughts.

The point you make underscores why all the solutions that have been tried and proposed are stunningly poor in their effectiveness--We aren't looking at the root cause, we are looking at 'hardware'.

I don't have the answer but some observations.

Modern schools are now more dangerous than Dodge City circa late 1800s. (Even then people were carrying in bars, getting liquored up, and still shooting less people)
More school shootings with more restrictions on access to firearms--This isn't the trend that was predicted.
When access to firearms were less restrictive, there were less shootings.
During the same time of rising school shootings there has been a rise in use of 1) social media, and 2) prescription drugs
During same time of rising school shootings there has been an increase in negative attitudes in all walks of society. Nihilism, narcissism, invective, acrimony, general misanthropy.
People now worship celebrity and celebrity status.
Snowflake syndrome and safe spaces.
Generalized decay of moral character and backbone.

Somehow there is a toxic brew here that is leading to increased mass casualty events. Doesn't even take an AR--just rent a truck from home depot.

Solutions?

Yeah good luck with that.

It bears tirelessly repeating though that throwing out the 2A because of our own issues is a really shameful approach.

In the near term the only mitigation I can see that has shown to be demonstrably effective is--pressing the fight to the shooter. With few exceptions (none I can remember) firing back or fighting back will disrupt the shooters plans and save lives.

[11B10]

I think some people need to realize most districts are struggling as it is. Funds are low, districts are privatizing staff. Bringing non district employees into the buildings and driving your kids home on the buses. Most districts simply could not afford the man power it would take to properly secure the schools. Most local law enforcements can not spare the man power to stay in buildings. I am sure they also do not have funds to hire however many cops are necessary. We would have to raise taxes in villages/counties etc. to come up with the money. I imagine the number is high.


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I'm pretty naive, but, couldn't a system somehow be developed that would "recruit" folks who could become security personnel at our schools? I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem with getting volunteers, properly vetted, of course. They'd have to do whatever was required - training, etc. - step up, America!

[JTQ]

I heard the Sheriff's briefing yesterday. I was pretty surprised they didn't catch the kid at the school. He walked out with other students, made a couple of stops (including McDonald's), and was apprehended later.

[Kyle Reese]

I'm pretty naive, but, couldn't a system somehow be developed that would "recruit" folks who could become security personnel at our schools? I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem with getting volunteers, properly vetted, of course. They'd have to do whatever was required - training, etc. - step up, America!

While I share your sentiment, I don't think that the powers that be in various school districts would be receptive to that idea.

[Trukinjp13]

Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I believe that we could figure out a way to make a more secure system. I am simply saying their is not a surplus of cash in most schools to make this work. And in the sad reality most school boards would not approve of a armed private security. Which also runs into the gun free zone laws of a state. Its a clusterfuck. Too many people willing to cut certain things or save money for education. (At least that is what they say🤦🏻*♂️) The individual states would have to come up with a plan and send it down the chain. That is who funds the schools. They determine how much each school gets per student in funds.

Clusterfuck.


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[HCountyGuy]

Waking up to reports seemingly nationwide about kids making threats to carry out similar massacres at their schools. One kid has been arrested in South Carolina for threatening a “round 2 of Florida”.

There’s even been rumors of threats circulating at schools from my hometown area. I’d say it’s time to bring down the hammer viciously on these little punks.

[Peally]

I appreciate all the ideas but I can assure everyone almost nothing will change as a result from this. There is no money, drive, or experience for virtually any of the proposed preventative measures.

The best solution is stay the fuck away from juicy targets like schools.

[JodyH]

Waking up to reports seemingly nationwide about kids making threats to carry out similar massacres at their schools. One kid has been arrested in South Carolina for threatening a “round 2 of Florida”.

There’s even been rumors of threats circulating at schools from my hometown area. I’d say it’s time to bring down the hammer viciously on these little punks.
Immediate, permanent expulsion from the district and a permanent restraining order banning them from all school property, GPS ankle monitoring for 10 years, slap them with a felony conviction.

[RoyGBiv]

While I share your sentiment, I don't think that the powers that be in various school districts would be receptive to that idea.

I spoke 1-on-1 with my local school superintendent about allowing CC in district schools. It was all he could to not to laugh in my face. He went on about the redesigned "secure" entries now in most schools, which was my cue to laugh back at him about propped open doors, no bollards, no security glass, stuff easily hidden in backpacks, etc.

It was not a constructive conversation, especially when I ended with disparaging comments about his and his head of district security Yankee upbringing and failed Yankee logic.

I'm normally straightforward but very professional. But his dismissiveness lit my afterburners.

Bridge thoroughly burned, hoping for a Phoenix, not counting on it.

[Trukinjp13]

I spoke 1-on-1 with my local school superintendent about allowing CC in district schools. It was all he could to not to laugh in my face. He went on about the redesigned "secure" entries now in most schools, which was my cue to laugh back at him about propped open doors, no bollards, no security glass, stuff easily hidden in backpacks, etc.

It was not a constructive conversation, especially when I ended with disparaging comments about his and his head of district security Yankee upbringing and failed Yankee logic.

I'm normally straightforward but very professional. But his dismissiveness lit my afterburners.

Bridge thoroughly burned, hoping for a Phoenix, not counting on it.

Oh buddy you are so right on the propped doors. Our district privatized the custodial staff a few years back. Been a train wreck since. The school installed a “security system” which basically means you need a key card to get in and out. Well the employees from the private companies constantly prop the doors open. In all the schools. They do not care what happens, they get paid minimum wage and most of them do not live in the district. It is a sad day for sure.

We have a superintendent who came from a district in the city with two high schools. We are a small little district. From day one he has pushed the city mentality on us and no one understands why he will not open his eyes. You can not run the district like a city. Funding is less. Busing routes are a lot longer with less kids on the buses. Most our kids have had a gun in their hands killing shit since they were kids. Sad that they understand how firearms work more than our superintendent and school board.


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[rob_s]

School district bureaucrats are exactly that. They are government employees who have gotten where they are by being rewarded for toeing the party line and best managing the bureaucracy. Caring about children, education, safety, etc. are all tertiary after personal advancement and district policy.

Further, any employee of a public school district is exponentially more likely to lean left as they are a participant in, product of, and beneficiary of, an inherently socialist environment and endeavor.

Further, virtually every teacher I've ever dealt with thinks they know more about child rearing, education, and what is best for children simply because they've managed not to get themselves fired working in a job where it is virtually impossible to be fired for anything less than outright endangerment of a child (and even then, not easy).

those three attributes (left-leaning, all-knowing, and bureaucrat) are also far more likely to produce the kind of dismissive pseudo-intellectual arrogance that almost any conservative parent encounters when trying to deal even with the lowest-tier school district employee.

Combine all of that, and the likelihood of *any* school district, whether Yankee or in God's Country, doing anything productive in the wake of this or previous tragedies is highly unlikely.

[JTQ]

Further, virtually every teacher I've ever dealt with thinks they know more about child rearing, education, and what is best for children simply because they've managed not to get themselves fired working in a job where it is virtually impossible to be fired for anything less than outright endangerment of a child (and even then, not easy).
While I think teachers of yesteryear were probably better than what is in the classroom today, there was a lot to be said for the "my way or the highway" teaching/classroom discipline method of the past.

A kid is a jerk in class, or doesn't do his homework, or fails a test.

Back in the day, the teacher would punish the kid, dock some points for no homework, and give the grade he/she earned on the test. Parents would be upset at their kid for being a jerk, not doing their homework, and not studying enough for the test. Parents would give the kid more grief than the teacher gave the kid.

Today, parents are in the school (if not calling down to the superintendents office) telling the teacher their child isn't a discipline problem, the teacher just doesn't understand their child (or culture), the student needs a pass on their homework because they had dance/soccer/baseball/football practice (or an away weekend tournament) and they were too tired to do their homework, and some of those test questions weren't fair or how about some extra credit because that test score is going to keep Billy/Susie out of State U.

Parents are no longer the enforcers of discipline, but rather the enablers of bad behavior.

[Trukinjp13]

Going on my 13th year working for a school district. I have seen 4 superintendents and multiple administrators roll through. What was said above is sad but true. Even if you get a superintendent who supports the correct way to fo things. The board has to approve. Who are elected officials. And nowadays do not necessarily join for the greater good of the kids. Mostly just for another feather in their cap.


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[Glenn E. Meyer]

The mention of racial issues (not going there) does reinforce the point that teachers shouldn't be pseudo-cops. Where does their responsibility end? An officer is expected to intervene in a gang dispute (which a fair amount of school shootings entail, if you get away from the rampages), fights, etc. Does the officially armed teacher - who then takes on the chance of a civil rights charge depending on his or her actions?

No - just allow CCW with the orientation of preventing grievous bodily harm. The teacher does not have to run to sound of cannons as an officer might.

The solution is legislative, in states that have the 'right' politics, to disallow school bans and free schools from liability of the armed teachers' actions. As I've said before, I think all location bans in school, businesses, government offiices, medical facilities, etc. should be voided except for technical reasons. The property rights argument holds no force except for monkey/dominance territoriality. Life trumps property. That's a broader issue but takes care of the armed teacher problem.

[Trukinjp13]

Michigan is in its second round of eliminating gun free zones. The first one the bill was on the governors desk. Then the Sandy Hook shooting happened. Bill got shelved. Now it is going through house and this happened. I do not have high hopes for it to pass.


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[Glenn E. Meyer]

Politician gun rights supporters in legislatures have little backbone.

[StraitR]

http://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/3-students-arrested-for-guns-on-campus-2-students-arrested-for-threats/287-519358612

3 students arrested for guns on campus, 2 students arrested for threats

So the day after this shooting you have three kids bring guns and ammo to school and two make threats to shoot up their school. This is just in 4 schools in DFW. How many similar incidents occurred nationwide today ?

If this doesn’t demonstrate the social disfunction factor in school shootings I don’t know what will.

Got a call (recorded message) from the County School system about 45 minutes ago. Threats were made on social media to 4 middle schools and 3 high schools in our county. Said an arrest was made in South Carolina for a threat on Snapchat in association with these threats. Message also said many other threats were made to various school districts across Florida.

So yeah, it's just compounding. THIS (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29879-Florida-School-Shooting&p=710022&viewfull=1#post710022) post made upstream about a theoretical model by Mark Granovetter is starting to look more and more probable. It's a great linked article everyone should read if they haven't already. I'll link the article below for conveniences, but credit to Kukuforguns for originally posting it.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

[Kyle Reese]

Immediate, permanent expulsion from the district and a permanent restraining order banning them from all school property, GPS ankle monitoring for 10 years, slap them with a felony conviction.

Agreed.

[Chance]

Saw this on Twitter. I'm not trying to make light of this individual's feelings, but it's very indicative of some people's mindset.

23818

23819

23820

23821

[TGS]

The mention of racial issues (not going there) does reinforce the point that teachers shouldn't be pseudo-cops. Where does their responsibility end? An officer is expected to intervene in a gang dispute (which a fair amount of school shootings entail, if you get away from the rampages), fights, etc. Does the officially armed teacher - who then takes on the chance of a civil rights charge depending on his or her actions?

No - just allow CCW with the orientation of preventing grievous bodily harm. The teacher does not have to run to sound of cannons as an officer might.

The solution is legislative, in states that have the 'right' politics, to disallow school bans and free schools from liability of the armed teachers' actions. As I've said before, I think all location bans in school, businesses, government offiices, medical facilities, etc. should be voided except for technical reasons. The property rights argument holds no force except for monkey/dominance territoriality. Life trumps property. That's a broader issue but takes care of the armed teacher problem.

I think you've made a lot of good points in the thread so far.

Would you consider a Sheriff's Sentinel to be a pseudo-cop? Would it change the efficacy if it was restricted to administrators and staff as opposed to faculty?

I like the idea, but I do think you bring up good discussion regarding failure points for the idea. I think it might be a matter of some approaches being right some schools and not others......i.e. Sheriff's Sentinels being a good idea in some schools, whereas others with a lot of violence, gang activity, maybe not so much.

[JodyH]

Saw this on Twitter. I'm not trying to make light of this individual's feelings, but it's very indicative of some people's mindset.

23821
I like her mindset.
"Children... there's nobody coming to save us, it's time to fix bayonets and get to work."

[peterb]

More social media fun:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/16/586361956/as-an-american-tragedy-unfolds-russian-agents-sow-discord-online

[PearTree]

I think you've made a lot of good points in the thread so far.

Would you consider a Sheriff's Sentinel to be a pseudo-cop? Would it change the efficacy if it was restricted to administrators and staff as opposed to faculty?

I like the idea, but I do think you bring up good discussion regarding failure points for the idea. I think it might be a matter of some approaches being right some schools and not others......i.e. Sheriff's Sentinels being a good idea in some schools, whereas others with a lot of violence, gang activity, maybe not so much.

I know you were not asking me, but the sentinel program is not pseudo-cop by any means. The only time sentinel "special deputies" have authority to act is in an active shooter and nothing else, and for good reason. The program definitely has it's problems in implementation and the politics that went into it, but the idea in my opinion is sound.

[TGS]

I know you were not asking me, but the sentinel program is not pseudo-cop by any means. The only time sentinel "special deputies" have authority to act is in an active shooter and nothing else, and for good reason. The program definitely has it's problems in implementation and the politics that went into it, but the idea in my opinion is sound.

I'm definitely a fan of the idea, just the same as I'm a huge fan of the FFDO program.

How has the program worked out since it's implementation? Is it solid and chugging along, or has it drowned and petered out, mired in issues that nobody wants to take responsibility for?

[41magfan]

I like her mindset.
"Children... there's nobody coming to save us, it's time to fix bayonets and get to work."

Right after the Sandy Hook killings, I recall a School Board member in some Southern state making the suggestion that parent's should send their kids to school with a can of beans in a strong bag or sock to be used as a makeshift bludgeon. They laughed him out of the room.

I thought that sounded like a better strategy than hiding under a chair and hoping for the best.

[blues]

Right after the Sandy Hook killings, I recall a School Board member in some Southern state making the suggestion that parent's should send their kids to school with a can of beans in a strong bag or sock to be used as a makeshift bludgeon. They laughed him out of the room.

I thought that sounded like a better strategy than hiding under a chair and hoping for the best.

Only problem being the most likely target of the can of beans will be other students they have a run-in with.

[41magfan]

Only problem being the most likely target of the can of beans will be other students they have a run-in with.

I'm fairly certain he was directing that to the overwhelming majority of students that would have no propensity to do such things. I think it's reasonable to assume the real trouble makers aren't going to limit themselves to a can of peaches.

[blues]

I'm fairly certain he was directing that to the overwhelming majority of students that would have no propensity to do such things. I think it's reasonable to assume the real trouble makers aren't going to limit themselves to a can of peaches.

I'm sure you're right. I was thinking of what kids were like in my old high school back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.

(I'd recommend canned beets since they're not good for anything else anyway.)

[41magfan]

To show you how things have changed, I graduated from a High School in central Florida in the mid-70's and during hunting season, I'd venture to guess there were several dozen rifles/shotguns stowed away in our trucks. It may have been a policy infraction for us to do that but there was no imperative to enforce it since the prevalence of guns had nothing to do with "gun violence" on those days.

[NEPAKevin]

When I was in high school, most of the guys I hung out with had a Buck 110 on his belt and wore steel toed shit kickers. They banned the boots before the knives. Janitors complained about the marks they made on the walls.

[blues]

To show you how things have changed, I graduated from a High School in central Florida in the mid-70's and during hunting season, I'd venture to guess there were several dozen rifles/shotguns stowed away in our trucks. It may have been a policy infraction for us to do that but there was no imperative to enforce it since the prevalence of guns had nothing to do with "gun violence" on those days.

Ain't it the truth. It's really a lot to do with not only parenting but the size of communities and the potential clash of cultures.

To put that in perspective, (I graduated HS in 1970), our HS had a full time NYPD officer, outbreaks of violence / race riots fairly regularly, and while our baseball team was city champs for a couple years running, we weren't allowed to have a football team due to fears of further violence. (I'm surprised they didn't make the baseball team use wiffle ball bats.)

Where I live now, it's very much like the small town America of yesteryear in many ways...to the point when the occasional violent crime occurs, and they do, it takes the community by surprise. At least some of the folks. Some of us are always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[fixer]

To show you how things have changed, I graduated from a High School in central Florida in the mid-70's and during hunting season, I'd venture to guess there were several dozen rifles/shotguns stowed away in our trucks. It may have been a policy infraction for us to do that but there was no imperative to enforce it since the prevalence of guns had nothing to do with "gun violence" on those days.

Similar here.

I grew up in Az. 50% of the time in northern and rural Az, 50% in the PHX area in the 1980s.

I distinctly recall showing my new 'Rambo' knife for show and tell in rural Az with no drama and just as much encouragement as if I had a signed baseball. When I moved to Phx metro area, I also was allowed to bring Chinese throwing stars to school to practice on palm trees. The only stipulation was that I stay away from the other kids playing, and only throw them at trees. I had numerous friends join me. A few of them brought their own.

Unbelievable by comparison.

[RevolverRob]

I like her mindset.
"Children... there's nobody coming to save us, it's time to fix bayonets and get to work."

Right?

I read that. I can tell she's writing it, in such a way as she finds it disgraceful, and I do too. It should be that she puts the children behind her and draws her gun and drops that guy like a bag of potatoes. BUT having kids accept the responsibility for their own safety is solid.

Better than the "duck and cover" mentality that has been drilled into people since the 1950s.

Fix those bayonets and get some.

ETA: It has also been my experience that kids aren't as afraid as we make them out to be. They not only tend to have not developed a reasonable sense of fear, but giving them a tool and the ability and circumstance to use it? They will Monkey with a Screwdriver up someone, no questions asked. My 3-year old niece is not afraid, someone came up behind her mom at the store and tried to snatch her purse from a shopping cart. My niece turned around and dropped ear piercing scream and launched two tiny fists backed up by 30 pounds of fury right into the guy's crotch. Cops caught him hobbling to his car. :o

[ssb]

http://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/3-students-arrested-for-guns-on-campus-2-students-arrested-for-threats/287-519358612

3 students arrested for guns on campus, 2 students arrested for threats

So the day after this shooting you have three kids bring guns and ammo to school and two make threats to shoot up their school. This is just in 4 schools in DFW. How many similar incidents occurred nationwide today ?

If this doesn’t demonstrate the social disfunction factor in school shootings I don’t know what will.

My office dealt with incidents regarding this sort of behavior in three of the counties we serve. That's in one day. We ran one up the flagpole to find the boss was dealing with two more this morning.

[RJ]

My 3-year old niece is not afraid, someone came up behind her mom at the store and tried to snatch her purse from a shopping cart. My niece turned around and dropped ear piercing scream and launched two tiny fists backed up by 30 pounds of fury right into the guy's crotch. Cops caught him hobbling to his car. :o

That is fucking outstanding.

[RJ]

Gov. Scott calls for resignation of FBI Director over this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180216/9752aafbc79419a0c1f293eeaa890f00.jpg

[Peally]

Unless Gov Scott is an omniscient superhuman like he says the FBI should have been he's a fucking idiot in the proper career field for people with his logic.

[blues]

Unless Gov Scott is an omniscient superhuman like he says the FBI should have been he's a fucking idiot in the proper career field for people with his logic.

I'm sure Wray was briefed on the matter by his subordinates at the time. :rolleyes:

/s

[ranger]

I will be interested to see some feedback from the members of the forum more familiar with Federal and Local law enforcement. However, I do not think that this apparent "miss" by the FBI is acceptable. Similarly, it appears that local law enforcement had made numerous calls to the shooter's home due to domestic violence and the shooter had interactions with mental health officials - why was he not flagged somehow in the firearms background check systems?

[critter]

Gov. Scott calls for resignation of FBI Director over this.




I don't think we can take/view this in the supplied vacuum. How many agents are available for this task vs. how many reports are received daily? how many credible threats are left after weeding the spurious ones? How long does it take to follow those down, get the necessary warrants, etc.?

Obviously I have no idea, however, I can't agree with laying this in the FBI's lap.

[WobblyPossum]

I will be interested to see some feedback from the members of the forum more familiar with Federal and Local law enforcement. However, I do not think that this apparent "miss" by the FBI is acceptable. Similarly, it appears that local law enforcement had made numerous calls to the shooter's home due to domestic violence and the shooter had interactions with mental health officials - why was he not flagged somehow in the firearms background check systems?

I gave my opinion on the YouTube comment investigation earlier in the thread. Regarding his LE interactions for domestic violence complaints and interactions with the mental health system, unless he was convicted of a domestic assault style crime or adjudicated mentally defective/involuntarily committed to an institution as a result of his interactions, there would be no action taken regarding NICS as he would not have been a prohibited person.


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[StraitR]

Rich_Jenkins Frankly, I take no issue with what Gov Scott said. Accountability is a good thing, especially in our government, and Gov Scott should be held to the same standard. It's reported that local LEO had been to the house 35 times since 2010 for mostly DV, the kid was kicked out of school for behavioral issues (including threats), was not allowed on campus with a backpack (clearly out of fear), and ultimately made a public threat to shoot up a school which was reported to the FBI.

PF is very pro-LEO, as am I, but if those are the facts, then there is no reason not to examine where the failure points were and hold those involved accountable. It happens at every corporation and at every level, the FBI should be no different. People lost their lives, the least we can do is look at how and why it happened and could it have been avoided if people did what they should have to the letter. If they did, then so be it. Let's learn from it and do better the next time.

[ranger]

I gave my opinion on the YouTube comment investigation earlier in the thread. Regarding his LE interactions for domestic violence complaints and interactions with the mental health system, unless he was convicted of a domestic assault style crime or adjudicated mentally defective/involuntarily committed to an institution as a result of his interactions, there would be no action taken regarding NICS as he would not have been a prohibited person.


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I cannot say about all locations - but it would be tough to involuntarily commit someone to an institution in Georgia as it seems that Georgia has closed most of its "institutions" and is "mainstreaming" the "clients" (I do not think they are allowed to use the "patient" title anymore). I hope that this horrible event will at least drive a much more thorough discussion about the mental health issues. It appears to me that there was the movement to close all the institutions and home treat people with mental health issues has failed.

[Peally]

What would have to have been legally done? What crimes did he actually commit? You can't just institutionalize people for saying really stupid shit, if we did we'd have the population of Monaco.

Calling for a firing is Scott sleazing up votes acting like he actually gives a fuck about what happened. He's a slime ball, asking to learn from mistakes doesn't take the form of the idiotic knee-jerk reaction to fire people.

[Eastex]

Those coaches and teachers who got between the shooter and the kids and sacrificed themselves give me hope. That protective instinct under that kind of stress tells me that those individuals could have handled being armed. They didn’t have any special “hero” training, they just did heroic things when their time came up. How you identify those people I don’t know. I’m just glad there are still some of them out there and I wish that they were all armed and I really wish those brave souls in Florida had been too.


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[RJ]

Ok so opinions differ on laying this tragedy at the feet of the FBI; that’s fine.

I do have two LEO questions, apart from my supporting Gov. Scott’s calling for the resignation of Director Wray. The FBI representative at today’s presser stated the notification “should have passed to the Miami field office.” What would have normally happened in that case I.e. if they hadn’t dropped the ball on this?

Second, can any Fl LEOs comment on why the shooter asshole was not Baker Acted back in January, based on all the community mental health issues exhibited by same?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Mental_Health_Act

[RoyGBiv]

Unless Gov Scott is an omniscient superhuman like he says the FBI should have been he's a fucking idiot in the proper career field for people with his logic.

I don't have much confidence in the executive level of the FBI these days. Definitely a swamp that needs draining. As much as Scott is clearly playing politics with his resignation demands, I'm not going to waste any brain cycles objecting.

Metallurgy humor warning.....

They should stop referring to FBI leadership as "Brass" and demand they be "Bronze" instead.
Why?
Because Bronze has more copper.

[blues]

Much as I like to take the FBI to task at times, if there is failure here, it is systemic failure based upon code, regulation and precedent.

Local LE would be much more acquainted with the individual and family and if they deemed via the judicial and mental health avenues available to them that there was insufficient basis for further action, then despite hindsight being 20/20, what could you reasonably expect them to do?

Are we going to institutionalize everyone on the internet that makes a veiled threat? Are we going to sit and monitor every correspondence and send men in long black leather coats and caps to determine if the comments made were appropriate? Gulags and political prisons for those judged unfit?

Tragedies will continue to happen because there is insufficient basis to take some sort of an action against someone deemed to be a potential ticking time bomb. And if it wasn't an AR-15 it might be lye, or a machete, or a pickup truck, or a biological.

There is no guarantee of safety for ourselves or our loved ones. Orders of protection don't (necessarily) protect. Suspicions don't convict. Posts on the internet don't get folks committed.

[RJ]

Much as I like to take the FBI to task at times, if there is failure here, it is systemic failure based upon code, regulation and precedent.

Local LE would be much more acquainted with the individual and family and if they deemed via the judicial and mental health avenues available to them that there was insufficient basis for further action, then despite hindsight being 20/20, what could you reasonably expect them to do?

Are we going to institutionalize everyone on the internet that makes a veiled threat? Are we going to sit and monitor every correspondence and send men in long black leather coats and caps to determine if the comments made were appropriate? Gulags and political prisons for those judged unfit?

Tragedies will continue to happen because there is insufficient basis to take some sort of an action against someone deemed to be a potential ticking time bomb. And if it wasn't an AR-15 it might be lye, or a machete, or a pickup truck, or a biological.

There is no guarantee of safety for ourselves or our loved ones. Orders of protection don't (necessarily) protect. Suspicions don't convict. Posts on the internet don't get folks committed.

Thanks blues.

This is a complex problem and is going to take a complex solution. Appreciate the reality check.

For me as a civilian, it’s hard to understand how this premeditation gets missed, especially in this case. Of course it is even harder for the families of the fallen kids to understand. I would not like to be the LEO trying to explain that to them.

Maybe to help calibrate on what’s currently possible, what is the minimum mental health issue that an individual has to display in order to be committed?

Is there any level of disturbing mental health issues that causes a potential future shooter asshole to be flagged up on NICS?

Speaking on NICS, is it an “either or” system, I.e. are there any attributes of a record in NICS where the individual has to go through a secondary screening, perhaps by a health professional?

[blues]

Thanks blues.

This is a complex problem and is going to take a complex solution. Appreciate the reality check.

For me as a civilian, it’s hard to understand how this premeditation gets missed, especially in this case. Of course it is even harder for the families of the fallen kids to understand. I would not like to be the LEO trying to explain that to them.

Maybe to help calibrate on what’s currently possible, what is the minimum mental health issue that an individual has to display in order to be committed?

Is there any level of disturbing mental health issues that causes a potential future shooter asshole to be flagged up on NICS?

Speaking on NICS, is it an “either or” system, I.e. are there any attributes of a record in NICS where the individual has to go through a secondary screening, perhaps by a health professional?

You're welcome, Rich. I'll let the guys who routinely address such issues respond as I'm no longer current.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This one-of-a-kind program enables authorized and properly trained employees of the university to carry concealed firearms on campus for the purpose of rapidly responding to an active assailant on campus

I can go along with that. Clear expectations that you only act in an active shooter situation should be clear. That's it.

What are the liability protections for the sentinel? Police have pretty intensive organization coverage through various mechanisms, like their unions. But I'm no expert on that. I know that when I had administrative responsibilities, I got a million buck malpractice policy from a professional organization. I asked my administrative bosses if the school would cover me if I were in trouble (obviously not my fault - but you could face a suit over a personal decision). I have no idea if that policy would kick in if I was in a shooting, even if acting as an official designate of the school as a sentinel.

BTW, I do not disparage folks by using the term pseudo-cop. I got that from some reading way back when folks were discussing whether the armed faculty were at risk if they stepped into a kid fight and the gun was seen and perhaps not retained. Or if a kid knew you had it, and decided to do a suicide by Mr. Math, Ms. Grayhair or Coach Feetball.

[TGS]

what is the minimum mental health issue that an individual has to display in order to be committed?

The specifics vary state to state, but generally for the initial 72 hour hour involuntary hold at a crisis center it revolves around danger to self or others, such as suicidal ideations and/or homicidal ideations. Homicidal ideations will generally not include off-hand inappropriate commentary.


Is there any level of disturbing mental health issues that causes a potential future shooter asshole to be flagged up on NICS?

Not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but it's pretty much limited to if you've been adjudicated mentally defective, or have been involuntarily committed to an institution.


Speaking on NICS, is it an “either or” system, I.e. are there any attributes of a record in NICS where the individual has to go through a secondary screening, perhaps by a health professional?

No. You're either cleared, or not. Some people (like myself, I have a common name shared by several news-worthy violent felons) can be delayed while an actual human determines if I'm the same person as the individual with a record, but otherwise I think you just brought up a possibly valid expansion of NICS if we discussed it further. But no, it doesn't currently perform in that manner.

[Hambo]

Calling for a firing is Scott sleazing up votes acting like he actually gives a fuck about what happened. He's a slime ball, asking to learn from mistakes doesn't take the form of the idiotic knee-jerk reaction to fire people.

Sounds like you've met our governor.

[Peally]

Sounds like you've met our governor.

I don't know anything about him but my image of him is thoroughly painted now. My condolences.

[41magfan]

I haven't seen anything thus far that would lawfully justify Cruz to be deprived to his liberty enough to matter.

The only effective way to deal with potential "trouble makers" before the fact is to trash the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. However, history is replete with examples (Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Sung, et al) of how effective a such "proactive" response can be but I happen to think the price to pay for it is a bit too high.

[peterb]

I haven't seen anything thus far that would lawfully justify Cruz to be deprived to his liberty enough to matter.

Right, but the whole pattern is so classic -- starting with the animal cruelty when young -- that "somebody should have done something."

Who and what, now there's the question....

[StraitR]

Much as I like to take the FBI to task at times, if there is failure here, it is systemic failure based upon code, regulation and precedent.

Local LE would be much more acquainted with the individual and family and if they deemed via the judicial and mental health avenues available to them that there was insufficient basis for further action, then despite hindsight being 20/20, what could you reasonably expect them to do?

Are we going to institutionalize everyone on the internet that makes a veiled threat? Are we going to sit and monitor every correspondence and send men in long black leather coats and caps to determine if the comments made were appropriate? Gulags and political prisons for those judged unfit?

Tragedies will continue to happen because there is insufficient basis to take some sort of an action against someone deemed to be a potential ticking time bomb. And if it wasn't an AR-15 it might be lye, or a machete, or a pickup truck, or a biological.

There is no guarantee of safety for ourselves or our loved ones. Orders of protection don't (necessarily) protect. Suspicions don't convict. Posts on the internet don't get folks committed.

I very much agree Blues, but simultaneously question whether we can continue the current path solely because the task of change is too daunting. I believe this is why some people call for more gun control, because 1) It's easy and feels like positive change, 2) Gun's are convenient to blame, and 3) They don't have interest or see validity in the 2A. I would rather see the 1A struck in a way that changes social media access and scope, but that's because I despise social media. Doesn't mean it's a valid solution, it's just easy, convenient, and doesn't affect me.

All that said, throwing our arms up because we can't monitor every correspondence, send men in coats, and incarcerate them all is no reason not to try some variation of doing so. There must be change, somehow, somewhere, or this country will continue to deteriorate.

As far as schools, well, if sending your child to school is law, then the state should be funding better measures of securing the schools. Sounds expensive? Yup, but guarding items of extreme importance and value is expensive. Sure, it might (likely will) displace the violence, just like banning guns would likely only change the method of violence, but then malls, movie theaters, and public events will just have to up their security as well.

The problem will not be solved without cost. The problem will not be solved without change. The problem will not be solved if we don't at least try something different no matter how daunting the task. Just as we take international terrorism threats very seriously, as we should, we need to start seriously looking inside at the very real threats by these kids that we apparently see so often that we don't even bother taking notice.

I'm sorry to those who take offense, but so far it appears that if there was ever a mass shooting that happened, but could have been prevented, this is the one. People aren't just looking at this in hindsight and saying, "yup, I knew there was something off about that boy", people (many people) on several different levels took notice and action against him up to and including notifying the Federal Bureau of Investigation. What more could have been done? If nothing, then the system is very, very broken and needs an overhaul.

[HCM]

I cannot say about all locations - but it would be tough to involuntarily commit someone to an institution in Georgia as it seems that Georgia has closed most of its "institutions" and is "mainstreaming" the "clients" (I do not think they are allowed to use the "patient" title anymore). I hope that this horrible event will at least drive a much more thorough discussion about the mental health issues. It appears to me that there was the movement to close all the institutions and home treat people with mental health issues has failed.

The community treatments which was supposed to succeed the institutions never materialized. In my experience if you have a person who is a threat to themselves or others which rises to the level of an emergency detention, they wind up getting hospitalized and medicated. At that point, the Doctors consider them "stabilized" and no longer a threat so they are released with a referral for a mental health clinic. Most never follow up, go off their meds and repeat the cycle. Even those who do try and follow up have a hard time and long waits navigating the system. For the majority, there is no one, social workers etc following up when they fail to show for their post discharge appointments.

[Peally]

They could all have been prevented, this one is no different. That applies to any criminal or accidental death on the planet. Police aren't magicians, there's 330 million people to keep in line in this country alone.

The real preventative measure of a cultural shift in thinking allowing practical solutions simply isn't going to happen any time soon. I know most of PF is male and we tend to think up solutions when presented with a problem but it ain't happening.

[HCM]

Ok so opinions differ on laying this tragedy at the feet of the FBI; that’s fine.

. The FBI representative at today’s presser stated the notification “should have passed to the Miami field office.” What would have normally happened in that case I.e. if they hadn’t dropped the ball on this?



It would have gone to either the criminal squad or the JTTF at the Miami Field Office. The assigned Agents or Task Force Officers (many of whom are state and local LEO's) would have conducted records checks and other intelligence gathering, including checks for contacts by local LE, and background interviews starting with the reporting party.

Given the close relationship of the caller and specific information, it would have generated a significant response, far more than a random online comment.

Given the detailed information passed on by the reporting party and the prior local LE contacts they would have either attempted contact and an interview accompanied by local LE from the CISM / Mental Health unit or obtained a search warrant depending on the specific information available. More likely the former, in which case, the most likely outcome would have been an emergency detention under state law for a mental health evaluation.

Search or Arrest warrants for federal threats by wire charges or state terroristic threats would have required evidence of specific and credible threats.

barring such evidence, would an emergency detention have resulted in the suspect being involuntarily committed ? Likely but not guaranteed. Given he was smart enough to exfil after the shooting, he might have been smart enough to play the game with the doctors.

The vast majority, (95% or more) of realized Active Shooter incidents fall under state / local jurisdiction. The main federal jurisdiction is actually on threats via "wire" / interstate communication unless the threat involves federal facilities, employees etc. There is no domestic terrorism statute comparable to the statues regarding designated international terror groups.

However, you see the FBI at every one of these because, there is an executive order directing the FBI to respond to active shooter incidents, and two "police assistance" is one of the core FBI missions and the FBI can bring significant resources to aid the state / local response. The FBI has essentially found itself filling in the gap of the "crazy guy with a gun police" not because state and local LE cant do it, but are often stretched to the max with other responsibilities.

While this was a process failure, rather than an investigative failure, the FBI is going to have to own this failure the way the Air Force and the DOD own the failure in Sutherland Springs.

[41magfan]

Right, but the whole pattern is so classic -- starting with the animal cruelty when young -- that "somebody should have done something."

Who and what, now there's the question....

As I noted in an earlier post, the price we must pay to live in a free and open society is sometimes fraught with danger. But that very freedom also allows us the latitude - as individuals - to deal with the perils that are inherit to that system. We have simply abrogated those duties and responsibilities.

The "something" that "somebody" should have done was engage Cruz as he was approaching that school carrying a long-gun. If there was no one present to accomplish that, then it should have been before he walked through several floors of that school shooting people at his leisure. From what I can tell, he stopped shooting because he chose to - not because he was forced to.

Before we spend a lot of time wringing our hands in contemplation of the difficult things, we need to start doing the relatively simple things. A school shooting is just another act of violence that can be terminated by the right (armed) person, being in the right place, at the right time and that person is usually a citizen - not a public safety official.

[11B10]

To show you how things have changed, I graduated from a High School in central Florida in the mid-70's and during hunting season, I'd venture to guess there were several dozen rifles/shotguns stowed away in our trucks. It may have been a policy infraction for us to do that but there was no imperative to enforce it since the prevalence of guns had nothing to do with "gun violence" on those days.



41, can you imagine what it was like when I went to HS in the SIXTIES? During deer hunting season, we'd actually sit in our cars/trucks and check out each other's guns. No one ever even thought of shooting anyone. Like I said earlier, if you had a problem with someone, it was "see you in the parking lot after school, asshole." Posturing definitely NOT allowed.

[Doc_Glock]

I appreciate all the commentary in this thread.

I would greatly appreciate if y’all could also post any particularly informative news articles or press conferences you come across dealing with the crime itself.

[PearTree]

Maybe to help calibrate on what’s currently possible, what is the minimum mental health issue that an individual has to display in order to be committed?
Evidence showing recent behavior that would cause serious bodily harm to oneself or others. This evidence can come via a variety of things, with each incident being unique.

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[PearTree]

I'm definitely a fan of the idea, just the same as I'm a huge fan of the FFDO program.

How has the program worked out since it's implementation? Is it solid and chugging along, or has it drowned and petered out, mired in issues that nobody wants to take responsibility for?

The program is still in place, and given the school the program is at, I don't foresee any of the members ever having to take action. In my opinion the whole program is more for publicity than anything else.

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[HCM]

I appreciate all the commentary in this thread.

I would greatly appreciate if y’all could also post any particularly informative news articles or press conferences you come across dealing with the crime itself.

Sheriff: High school had armed officer on campus that never encountered the suspected shooter

http://www.fox26houston.com/news/sheriff-high-school-had-armed-officer-on-campus-that-never-encountered-the-suspected-shooter#/

[UNM1136]

Maybe to help calibrate on whatÂ’s currently possible, what is the minimum mental health issue that an individual has to display in order to be committed?


Going from memory, in my state, to involuntarily commit someone a cop needs one of the following: (not looking at the statute now, so wording may be a little off and out of order)

1. Evidence that the person has just attempted suicide.
2. Probable cause to believe that a person, due to a mental illness or disorder, presents a threat of serious bodily harm or death to themselves or another, and that immediate detention is necessary to prevent the harm or death.
3. A signed order from a mental health professional indicating that due to a mental illness or disorder the person presents a threat of serious bodily harm or death to themselves or another, and that immediate detention is necessary to prevent the harm or death.
4. The person is subject to lawful arrest.

Notice that 2 and 3 require evidence of two separate things: danger of GBH/death and evidence that immediate detention is necessary to prevent it. Many threatening to kill themselves for attention lack a plan that communicates that immediate detention is necessary to prevent the harm.

An Emergency Mental Health Certificate for Evaluation is valid for 72 hours. Can't find 'em, 72 hours and 1 minute after it is signed and you might as well not have one...you need a new order or new PC. Mental health professionals don't always work hours conducive to renewing a Cert for Eval. After 72 hours smart cops try to develop the PC themselves or persuade the client to go in voluntarily. It is the equivelent of a misdemeanor warrant, so we don't kick in doors to grab people. We knock, they open, we can grab'em. Forcing our way in needs a search warrant. NM caselaw is rather unique in search and siezure issues. Some eventually make it into federal caselaw via SCOTUS, but many are just statewide pains in the rear that other states don't observe.

A 72 hour hold is just to be evaluated. An educated guess says a vast majority are evaluated and released within 18 hours and very few go beyond 24 hours. 72 hours is the maximum amount of time someone can be committed without a court order. There is no minimum. Once at the facility the a professional interviews the patient and if they do not present a threat of harm requiring detention, they are released. I have seen them released, in the last year, within 45 minutes of being committed. It really sucks to determine someone is in crisis, do the paperwork, transport them,and have them released before I get a chance to sit down and start my report. If they need to be held longer than 72 hours there has to be a hearing, with a judge and legal counsel for the patient within that 72 hour window to extend the commitment for up to 30 days. Anything longer than that is serious legal wrangling. The two judicial districts I have worked in have each had one ADA fluent in mental health stuff, and the current one has a population of nearly 700,000. If I recall correctly, the state mental hospital has 200 or so inpatient beds, and the county has 47.

pat

[Totem Polar]

As I noted in an earlier post, the price we must pay to live in a free and open society is sometimes fraught with danger. But that very freedom also allows us the latitude - as individuals - to deal with the perils that are inherit to that system. We have simply abrogated those duties and responsibilities...

Before we spend a lot of time wringing our hands in contemplation of the difficult things, we need to start doing the relatively simple things. A school shooting is just another act of violence that can be terminated by the right (armed) person, being in the right place, at the right time and that person is usually a citizen - not a public safety official.



As far as schools, well, if sending your child to school is law, then the state should be funding better measures of securing the schools. Sounds expensive? Yup, but guarding items of extreme importance and value is expensive. Sure, it might (likely will) displace the violence, just like banning guns would likely only change the method of violence, but then malls, movie theaters, and public events will just have to up their security as well...

I think a lot of us are on the same page on this. The one thing that all these public places where shootings happen have in common, for sure, is that the public is there. None of the above places can realistically harden things up enough to be truly effective and still be public; the simple solution is to rely on, and allow the public to defend themselves. Maybe that’s not workable, for one reason or another, but it’s still the simplest option on the table.

[hufnagel]

They could all have been prevented, this one is no different. That applies to any criminal or accidental death on the planet. Police aren't magicians, there's 330 million people to keep in line in this country alone.

The real preventative measure of a cultural shift in thinking allowing practical solutions simply isn't going to happen any time soon. I know most of PF is male and we tend to think up solutions when presented with a problem but it ain't happening.

Before I drop this Jupiter sized asteroid on you for that, I'll give you an opportunity to clarify the highlighted portion, and I'll allow my brain a couple more hours to finish it's boot sequence, seeing has how it's early for me. :D

[Eastex]

My wife brought up this shooting over breakfast this morning. She’s a 25 year elementary school teacher here in our small town. She mentioned a news story about another small town near us that had just let some of its teachers bring guns into school. That makes three in about a 50 mile radius that I know of. What she said next kind of set me back, she said she wished our school would, (I knew she felt that way), but then she said she would get the training herself if they would.
She didn’t grow up in a anti gun family but she had never shot anything herself. I’ve been bringing her along slowly and she’s become pretty solid with “her” SP101. She’s said before how horrible it would be for her to be surrounded by her “babies” and not be able
to try to protect them. There is something to that protective instinct that could be tapped into that would help keep these kids safe.


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[Duelist]

Saw this on Twitter. I'm not trying to make light of this individual's feelings, but it's very indicative of some people's mindset.

23818

23819

23820

23821

Clearly, that is an educator who would step between a gunman and her children. Would she not be better off with a .38 than a pair of scissors?

[JodyH]

I've had a few teachers and nurses in my ccw classes that would probably fall apart if they had to defend themselves at 2am from a criminal attack.
But those same teachers and nurses would stab a #2 pencil into your neck like a sewing machine in defense of others.
The "Momma bear" part of the female psyche is real and it's truly a force of nature.

[JodyH]

Clearly, that is an educator who would step between a gunman and her children. Would she not be better off with a .38 than a pair of scissors?
Of course she would, and I bet that's what she'd choose if she was allowed to.

[hufnagel]

I've had a few teachers and nurses in my ccw classes that would probably fall apart if they had to defend themselves at 2am from a criminal attack.
But those same teachers and nurses would stab a #2 pencil into your neck like a sewing machine in defense of others.
The "Momma bear" part of the female psyche is real and it's truly a force of nature.

Were you intentionally calling up John Wick with that, or was it just happenstance? :D

[Hambo]

In Florida if you are "Baker Acted" for psych evaluation there isn't a set number of hours, but only a psychiatrist can release you. If the psychiatrist won't release you, but you son't want to stay voluntarily, there is a legal process that must be done to keep you.

The kid I ratted out was in for less than 48 hours, probably only because of the wait to see a psychiatrist. Another friend's brother, who police found standing in the street screaming about the voices in his head and threatening violence, was taken in at about 6pm and was home for the 11 o'clock news.

[joshs]

In Florida if you are "Baker Acted" for psych evaluation there isn't a set number of hours, but only a psychiatrist can release you. If the psychiatrist won't release you, but you son't want to stay voluntarily, there is a legal process that must be done to keep you.

That's not entirely correct. The evaluation period is for 72 hours, but can be extended due to weekends holidays.

"The examination period must be for up to 72 hours. For a minor, the examination shall be initiated within 12 hours after the patient's arrival at the facility. Within the examination period or, if the examination period ends on a weekend or holiday, no later than the next working day thereafter, one of the following actions must be taken, based on the individual needs of the patient:
1. The patient shall be released, unless he or she is charged with a crime, in which case the patient shall be returned to the custody of a law enforcement officer;
2. The patient shall be released, subject to subparagraph 1., for voluntary outpatient treatment;
3. The patient, unless he or she is charged with a crime, shall be asked to give express and informed consent to placement as a voluntary patient and, if such consent is given, the patient shall be admitted as a voluntary patient; or
4. A petition for involuntary services shall be filed in the circuit court if inpatient treatment is deemed necessary or with the criminal county court, as defined in s. 394.4655(1), as applicable. When inpatient treatment is deemed necessary, the least restrictive treatment consistent with the optimum improvement of the patient's condition shall be made available. When a petition is to be filed for involuntary outpatient placement, it shall be filed by one of the petitioners specified in s. 394.4655(4)(a). A petition for involuntary inpatient placement shall be filed by the facility administrator."

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 394.463(g).

[Eastex]

Parking lot sign from the school my wife was talking about this morning. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/185e13c561a1cdb7a72cdb83317e36f9.jpg


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[Hambo]

That's not entirely correct. The evaluation period is for 72 hours, but can be extended due to weekends holidays.

"The examination period must be for up to 72 hours. For a minor, the examination shall be initiated within 12 hours after the patient's arrival at the facility. Within the examination period or, if the examination period ends on a weekend or holiday, no later than the next working day thereafter, one of the following actions must be taken, based on the individual needs of the patient:
1. The patient shall be released, unless he or she is charged with a crime, in which case the patient shall be returned to the custody of a law enforcement officer;
2. The patient shall be released, subject to subparagraph 1., for voluntary outpatient treatment;
3. The patient, unless he or she is charged with a crime, shall be asked to give express and informed consent to placement as a voluntary patient and, if such consent is given, the patient shall be admitted as a voluntary patient; or
4. A petition for involuntary services shall be filed in the circuit court if inpatient treatment is deemed necessary or with the criminal county court, as defined in s. 394.4655(1), as applicable. When inpatient treatment is deemed necessary, the least restrictive treatment consistent with the optimum improvement of the patient's condition shall be made available. When a petition is to be filed for involuntary outpatient placement, it shall be filed by one of the petitioners specified in s. 394.4655(4)(a). A petition for involuntary inpatient placement shall be filed by the facility administrator."

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 394.463(g).

I should have said, if the psychiatrist wants to keep you/believes you should not leave. Thanks for posting the statute. The point is that it's not easy to keep someone who won't stay voluntarily.

[blues]

I should have said, if the psychiatrist wants to keep you/believes you should not leave. Thanks for posting the statute. The point is that it's not easy to keep someone who won't stay voluntarily.

Nor should it be, lest we ever find out ourselves.

This kind of power wielded by the state is a double edged sword, and needs be wielded judiciously.

[ranger]

Nor should it be, lest we ever find out ourselves.

This kind of power wielded by the state is a double edged sword, and needs be wielded judiciously.

And that is the root issue isn't it. Do we ban inanimate objects because that is easier than dealing with the people issues which is exacerbated by the opportunity for abuse by the government.

[Hambo]

Nor should it be, lest we ever find out ourselves.

This kind of power wielded by the state is a double edged sword, and needs be wielded judiciously.

Did I say it should be? No, I did fucking not. It was merely to inform those who think something should have been done prior to the killing about how difficult that process is.

[TGS]

Did I say it should be? No, I did fucking not. It was merely to inform those who think something should have been done prior to the killing about how difficult that process is.

Whoa there, hoss.

[El Cid]

Did I say it should be? No, I did fucking not. It was merely to inform those who think something should have been done prior to the killing about how difficult that process is.

I feel confident Blues was agreeing and continuing the conversation - not attacking you.

[blues]

Did I say it should be? No, I did fucking not. It was merely to inform those who think something should have been done prior to the killing about how difficult that process is.

Bro', I wasn't implying that at all, and I am in complete agreement.

I was simply speaking for myself from a deep Orwellian dread. Sorry if you thought I was criticizing you but that was not the intent of my post whatsoever.

[Hambo]

Whoa there, hoss.

Thanks, seriously.


I feel confident Blues was agreeing and continuing the conversation - not attacking you.


Bro', I wasn't implying that at all, and I am in complete agreement.

I was simply speaking for myself from a deep Orwellian dread. Sorry if you thought I was criticizing you but that was not the intent of my post whatsoever.

My apologies. There has been a lot of misinterpretation in this thread and I snapped when I should have known better, at someone who didn't deserve it.

[blues]

My apologies. There has been a lot of misinterpretation in this thread and I snapped when I should have known better, at someone who didn't deserve it.

No offense taken, Hambo. I've read enough of your posts over the past couple of years to know why you'd take umbrage with someone saddling you with that point of view. I'd have bristled as well if I thought someone thought that of me.

We're good.

ETA:

And thanks to you guys who spoke up on my behalf. It means a lot.

[Peally]

Before I drop this Jupiter sized asteroid on you for that, I'll give you an opportunity to clarify the highlighted portion, and I'll allow my brain a couple more hours to finish it's boot sequence, seeing has how it's early for me. :D

Keep in line as in "Try-to-prevent-them-getting-killed-by-a-psycho-tomorrow" not "boot-to-ass-THE-FUHRER-IS-NOT-PLEASED"

[hufnagel]

Keep in line as in "Try-to-prevent-them-getting-killed-by-a-psycho-tomorrow" not "boot-to-ass-THE-FUHRER-IS-NOT-PLEASED"

https://i.imgur.com/dVDJiez.gif

Ok then. I'll put Jupiter back in it's proper orbit. :D

[CCT125US]

The following is good piece for the unaware who say "We need to do something"

http://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/359363-What-if-there-were-serious-gun-controls%3F

[HCM]

Deputies Called to suspected shooter’s home 39 times over 7 years


https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/deputies-called-to-suspected-shooters-home-39-times-over-seven-years/


https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/school-shooters-brother-committed-to-mental-facility/

School Shooter’s brother committed to mental facility


The younger brother of deranged school shooter Nikolas Cruz was committed to a mental health facility, according to reports.

Authorities removed someone Friday from the home of Rocxanne Deschamps, a longtime family friend of the Cruz brothers who took them in after their adoptive mother died of pneumonia in November, The Palm Beach Post reported.

A friend of Deschamps confirmed Zachary Cruz, who turns 18 next week, was the person removed from the home.

The younger Cruz brother was involuntarily committed under Florida’s Baker Act, under which he can be held involuntarily for up to 12 hours for an involuntary psychiatric exam. It’s unclear if he’s been released.

[hufnagel]

The following is good piece for the unaware who say "We need to do something"

http://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/359363-What-if-there-were-serious-gun-controls%3F

I need to keep that handy. Not that liberal minions would understand the bitch slap it provides.

[HCM]

https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/suspect-was-a-good-shot-on-nra-backed-school-rifle-team/


The troubled teen authorities say killed 17 people at a Florida high school excelled in an air-rifle marksmanship program supported by a grant from the National Rifle Association Foundation, part of a multimillion-dollar effort by the gun group to support youth shooting clubs and other programs.

Nikolas Cruz, 19, was wearing a maroon shirt with the logo from the Army Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps program at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School when he was arrested Wednesday shortly after the shooting. Former JROTC cadets told The Associated Press that Cruz was a member of the small varsity marksmanship team that trained together after class and traveled to other area schools to compete.




He was a very good shot,” said Aaron Diener, 20, who gave Cruz a ride to shooting competitions when they were part of the same four-member team in 2016. “He had an AR-15 he talked about, and pistols he had shot. … He would tell us, ‘Oh, it was so fun to shoot this rifle’ or ‘It was so fun to shoot that.’ It seemed almost therapeutic to him, the way he spoke about it.”

The JROTC marksmanship program used air rifles special-made for target shooting, typically on indoor ranges at targets the size of a coin.

Records show that the Stoneman Douglas JROTC program received $10,827 in non-cash assistance from the NRA’s fundraising and charitable arm in 2016, when Cruz was on the squad. The school’s program publicly thanked the NRA Foundation on its Twitter feed.

A spokeswoman for the NRA declined to comment on Friday. The top officers of the foundation are all current or former executives of the NRA.

The more than 1,700 high school JROTC programs nationally also receive financial support from the U.S. military and are typically supervised by retired officers from the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. The military collaborates with school systems on the training curriculum, which includes marching drills, athletic competitions and shooting teams.

[41magfan]

For some time now, I've had a theory (totally unscientific or verifiable) that for every random sampling of 100,000 people there exist at least one potential whack-job capable of shooting up a _________ for no justifiable reason. For every sampling of 750,000 to 1,000,000 there lurks an active or potential serial killer.

Any COP worth his salt can identify any number of folks in his jurisdiction that have the potential to do something bad. Most of them don't, but when they do, most folks with their head screwed on straight aren't totally surprised. The most common remark you hear is "I knew there was something not right about that guy." Well folks, people of that description are as common as dirt!

If we knew - for certain - who these folks were, we'd have to do active surveillance on them 24/7 to prevent them from being a threat. Even if we had the manpower and the money to pull that off, it still wouldn't be practical nor would it be foolproof.

[CCT125US]

https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/suspect-was-a-good-shot-on-nra-backed-school-rifle-team/

That is not going to help the left's hatred.

[blues]

That is not going to help the left's hatred.

Nope. They're going to conflate the NRA, 2A, and marksmanship training with developing a murderous blood lust. (No matter how many others who have gone through like programs live perfectly ordinary and responsible lives within their communities.)

[Guinnessman]

Anti-gun rally in FT. Lauderdale as we speak: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fort-lauderdale-anti-gun-rally-today-02-17-2018-live-stream/

I can’t believe no one is screaming for a ban on cars: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/traffic-deaths-edge-lower-but-2017-stats-paint-worrisome-picture.html

We need common sense reform so cars stop killing people!

[Nimitz87]

Arming all teachers is not a realistic option.

Bringing in armed volunteers may sound realistic at first, but it would require some serious vetting system to be put into place. Plinking beer cans or shooting a local 3 gun match is not enough training to confront an active shooter. IF a jurisdiction were to get approval for vetted armed volunteers, then it wouldn't be all that hard to setup some force on force training with SIMS, ect.

Having an active shooter plan in place within the school and practicing it should be mandatory. Every classroom door would have a solid core door with a lock so that the teachers can lock down their classroom and shelter in place.

Schools should have a dedicated SRO. This SRO should not be the reject officer that is looking for a place to retire on duty, but someone willing to accept the responsibility that the current environment now mandates out of an SRO. Agencies should conduct active shooter training and have access to school floor plans.

Now to change the topic slightly, what the hell has changed to cause these school shootings??? Guns were always available, more so when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's. The media is trying to push a political agenda of gun control giving the false impression that it will suddenly cause these shootings to stop. It seems like school shootings really kicked in within the last 10-15 years. But privately owned firearms were not just instituted within this country within the last 10-15 years. Media wanting to blame the evil looking AR15 rifle? Not all school shooters are using an AR15. And the AR15 has been around for a lot longer than this spree of school shootings.

What's going on here? Is it a mental health issue caused by social media? Caused by current culture, movies, music, ect?

Something has changed. And I personally feel it's much more involved than access to firearms. The firearm is just a tool. But what possess a teen to wake up one day and decided to commit mass murder?


this is the hardest question and the reason you won't hear it, the gun is so easy to blame but it's just the tool.

I think much has to do with how bullying has changed and social media, things aren't forgotten as easily and everything is documented.

I also think it has to do with the change in the home dynamic over the last 30 or so years, parents work more, parent less, and are less involved with raising their children, and teaching them right and wrong.


video games aren't the reason, but video games and violence have desensitized today's youth.

societal health is the biggest to me, just be nice to people.

[olstyn]

We need common sense reform so cars stop killing people!

That's been said by so many people so many times that it's basically a meme of internet gun control arguments, and it really doesn't hold much water. Cars may kill more total people, but "weapon" isn't their design purpose, and the vast majority of those deaths are the result of accident/negligence/weather conditions/etc., not a human making a decision to end another human's life. We need to be using pro-gun arguments that actually mean something in the debate, not stale talking points which blur the line between joke and straw man.

[Guinnessman]

“Now isn’t the time to discuss a plea deal.”

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-mike-satz-response-20180217-story.html

[41magfan]

A few comments to address the "Why" question ......

Most people don't want to hear this, but the cheese starting sliding off our cracker in the 60's when we started actively and aggressively removing any reference of God from our culture. That reference is what defined America's greatness from our very beginnings but we've thumbed our nose at God.

We've aborted 50 million babies in the last five decades and now wring our hands wondering why today's kids have no respect for human life. Really?

We practice situational ethics in every part of our culture and then we wonder why today's kids seem bent on defining their own boundaries of what's right and wrong. Really?

Our leaders (at the highest level) practice corruption, deceit and favoritism and we wonder why today's kids have no respect for authority or the rule of law. Really?

I could go on and on ......

Our chickens are simply coming home to roost. The majority of Americans seemed pretty determined to make the decisions that have led us to where we are today as a culture, but it seems they lack the fortitude to live with the consequences.

As the old saying goes, "You can't have it both ways."

[blues]

^^^I think you make some good points but since I'm not religious in the conventional / organized fashion, I can't say that it's the absence of God in everyday American life, but I completely agree with the decay caused by moral and ethical relativism taken to an extreme.

We've tolerated bad examples of humanity / ethics / morality in virtually every walk of life from religious and elected leaders to education, the arts, sports and entertainment icons and it has resulted in the erosion of the values and foundation upon which our society is, or was based.

Putting murder and evil acts aside, the general lack of acknowledgement of the humanity and value of others is telling in its own right.

If children are raised to live in a smart phone / video game centric bubble where the only thing that matters are their own aims, pursuits and goals, where and when does any sense of civic and community responsibility become ingrained?

To play devil's advocate to the above, some of the young people interviewed in the wake of the recent tragedy seem like they have their heads on straight...(leaving aside the debate on the 2A which is understandably a very delicate topic following the ordeal they've just been put through).

ETA:

I honestly have no idea of the percentage of society that this face of evil represents nor, in reality, whether it's any more or different from the past (in terms of the percentage) but only seeming to be more prevalent due to the technology involved in instant communication of events as well as the enhanced means of doing harm.

[Poconnor]

Take the simple approach, mandate two SROs per school. Tell them they are responsible for protecting the children with their own lives, not a retired on duty fuck up pussy writing tickets for cigarettes. Give grants to schools for hiring and training “sheep dog” teachers. Teachers willing and able to take the responsibility of armed protection of children. We already hire teachers to be sports coaches. When a shooter comes to call an armed teacher is more important than a good football coach. We are probably better off paying 10 teachers an extra 5 grand a year to carry a gun than hiring an extra SR0. An armed teacher is more valuable today than another high school Math teacher with a PHD

[Clusterfrack]

Agree, except for the part about math teachers.

[olstyn]

^^^I think you make some good points but since I'm not religious in the conventional / organized fashion, I can't say that it's the absence of God in everyday American life, but I completely agree with the decay caused by moral and ethical relativism taken to an extreme.

We've tolerated bad examples of humanity / ethics / morality in virtually every walk of life from religious and elected leaders to education, the arts, sports and entertainment icons and it has resulted in the erosion of the values and foundation upon which our society is, or was based.

Agreed. I'm basically an atheist, albeit with the small allowance that one can never be truly sure of the absence of a thing, but I still manage to have moral convictions and the ability to tell right from wrong. That said, those values need to be instilled by parents and society, and it seems that perhaps we haven't been getting it done as well as we could. I do find the "riot theory" presented in the article linked earlier in the thread to be interesting. The truth about the situation may lie somewhere between "moral decay" and "riot." Regardless, something needs to change if this trend is to be reversed.

[Peally]

High school math teachers don't have PHDs.