Documented LEO use of Knives

[Flamingo]

I carry a benchmade SOP-C knife on my vest and one of the senior officers in my squad asked me why I have it. I told him I have it in case I get in an entangled fight on the ground and and I need to go lethal and I can’t get to my firearm. He then asked if there are any documented LEO uses of knives. I have done some searches on google, but most of the news articles I have found have been why cops should not shoot people with knives.


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[beenalongtime]

I have no idea of the documentation. The Uniformed LEO's (including the days when one in my family was), would keep them on them as seat belt cutters. I will have to ask if they still carry it as a detective/plain clothes.
Something you might be able to find.

[TGS]

I'm afraid I can't help with your exact question, but one of our DT instructors beat a guy to death with elbows to the face.

He did a lot of MMA in his free time...in essence, he reverted to what he trained with when he responded to a domestic and found himself in a small kitchen with a dude trying to stab him.

So, it's not a knife use but it's still a close quarters combatives kill. Our instructor noted that a weapon, such as a knife, would have been a much better way to end the fight.

Personally I don't carry an exposed knife on my vest when performing warrants (I'm plainclothes, not uniformed patrol) for the same reason I cringe when I see guys wearing exposed trauma shears. It's a weapon of opportunity for you to get stabbed with, very easily so, and is hard to defend even if they don't get it on the first attempt. I still carry a knife, though, but more for utility/rescue tool use.

[Mas]

I believe John Benner at TDI may have some documented cases of his knife being used in self-defense by officers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Craig Douglas a/k/a southnarc would have some on file.

If memory serves, Nashville Metro had a save against a gun grab attempt with one of their officers just a few years ago.

[TC215]

I believe John Benner at TDI may have some documented cases of his knife being used in self-defense by officers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Craig Douglas a/k/a southnarc would have some on file.

If memory serves, Nashville Metro had a save against a gun grab attempt with one of their officers just a few years ago.

Yep:

http://www.wsmv.com/story/15132531/metro-police-officer-attacked-at-a-urinal

[lwt16]

Without getting into specifics, we had an officer a few years back to use a KaBar TDI? (that fixed blade model) to cut a suspect off of him who was actively beating him down on the pavement. If I remember right, the suspect had achieved top control and was fornicating our guy up pretty good. He then was pulling on his holstered firearm so hard it was lifting the officer up off the ground.

Our guy sliced him pretty good......not fatally as that would have been a much better ending to the encounter....but enough to distract him long enough for back up units to arrive and beat the hades out of the guy as he would not submit.

They got him cuffed and our guy survived with minimum damage.

I'll try to find a news article. My old tail has forgotten the officer's name.

Edit: About the time I typed that, his name came back to me.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/08/witnesses_describe_beating_of.html

[41magfan]

I can recall two incidents in recent history and if I can find my notes, I can offer some details.

One involved an attempted disarming (in a restroom IIRC) and the LEO deployed a folder and stabbed the guy in the thigh.

The other involved a fixed blade in a situation where the Officer was pinned down in a shallow creek with the BG straddling him. In that case, he just stabbed until the BG broke off the assault, IIRC.


ETA: I see a link was provided by TC215 on the restroom incident while I was typing.

Here's another one (no real details, though):

http://www.news9.com/story/20617711/tulsa-police-officer-stabs-suspect-trying-to-grab-his-gun

[octagon]

http://www.iacombatives.com/2018/01/31/defensive-use-of-a-knife/

LEO use of knife in defense is third story down in links in article but the article itself has more info that may help your search.

[txdpd]

Ask him if there are any documented cases of a police radio saving an officers life, and why does he bother carrying it?

Or, just tell him you use it to keep your fingernails clean, so you can look professional. Stupid questions from stupid idiot deserve stupid answers.

Chalk it up to learning lesson. He's not the only asshole out there that's eyeballing your equipment, just this asshole runs his mouth and isn't interested in hurting you. If that knife is in public view, you should probably fix that. At a minimum it'll save you from stupid questions.

[HCM]

DKU: West Virginia State Trooper uses knife in fight for his life


http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2016/03/dku-west-virginia-state-trooper-uses-knife-in-fight-for-his-life/

http://wvmetronews.com/2016/03/18/trooper-survives-harrowing-confrontation-in-randolph-county/


Nathaniel Wegman, 27, who was wanted on an outstanding warrant for burglary in Indiana. After Wegman fled on foot, Cornelius caught up to him when he jumped into Mill Creek.

“There was a struggle that ensued and caused the trooper to fall and hit his head,” said West Virginia state police spokesman Lt. Michael Baylous. “When he did, Mr. Wegman attempted to choke him, drown him, and to murder him right there.”

As his head was being held underwater by his throat Cornelius was unable to reach his gun, which was pinned under his body. Instead he grabbed his knife and used it to thwart the attack.


“He was able to stab him a couple of times in the abdomen area and the chin,” Baylous said. “It caused some pretty significant wounds.”

Wounded and bleeding, Wegman left the area in a vehicle driven by Laura Lynn, 32, of Mooresville, Ind. A bystander who wasn’t involved in the incident came to help Cornelius.

“It’s my understanding he had either lost consciousness at one point or was about to lose consciousness,” said Baylous. “Had it not been for this person who came and helped him, he very likely could have drowned.”

[TGS]

Or, just tell him you use it to keep your fingernails clean, so you can look professional. Stupid questions from stupid idiot deserve stupid answers.

I was checking my weapons at a secured area one time, and when I put my pocketknife in the lockbox the officer looked at me and said (in an alarmed voice), "a knife? Why on earth do you have that!?"

I couldn't help but to blurt out, "Was that a serious question?" and walk away mouth agape.

I'm carrying a gun, but God forbid I have a fucking pocket-knife on me.

[HCM]

Ask him if there are any documented cases of a police radio saving an officers life, and why does he bother carrying it?

Or, just tell him you use it to keep your fingernails clean, so you can look professional. Stupid questions from stupid idiot deserve stupid answers.

Chalk it up to learning lesson. He's not the only asshole out there that's eyeballing your equipment, just this asshole runs his mouth and isn't interested in hurting you. If that knife is in public view, you should probably fix that. At a minimum it'll save you from stupid questions.

Good point on concealing the knife. A few years ago (2010) an Austin, TX police officer was slashed in the neck with his own knife, a Ka Bar TDI during a struggle with a suspect. Ka Bar re designed the sheath of the TDI and added a retention lock as a result of this incident.

http://thinblueflorida.com/?p=2622

https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2010-12-24/former-yogurt-shop-suspect-killed-by-apd-updated/


Wilson caught up with Pierce a short time later (near the intersection of Shreveport Dr. and Campos Dr.) and a "struggle ensued," said APD spokeswoman Anna Sabana. During the struggle, Wilson attempted to tase Pierce, and Pierce allegedly grabbed a knife from Wilson's duty belt and cut the officer's neck. Wilson was then able to draw his firearm, and shot Pierce. Pierce ran off and was found deceased nearby.

Wilson was taken to the hospital with a severed carotid artery among other injuries, but is expected to make a full recovery. At a Friday press conference, Asst. Chief David Carter credited quick action by back-up officers for saving Wilson's life. Both Wilson and Smith have been placed on administrative leave, as is standard procedure in an officer-involved shooting, while the department investigates the incident.

[nwhpfan]

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2017/02/clackamas_county_deputy_injure.html

[BehindBlueI's]

I was checking my weapons at a secured area one time, and when I put my pocketknife in the lockbox the officer looked at me and said (in an alarmed voice), "a knife? Why on earth do you have that!?"

I recall in the Academy we were told to always carry a knife, and done so with this scenario:

Suicide in progress, you just walked in and he stepped off the chair. He's hanging from an extension cord. What are you going to do recruit? How are you going to get him down and get him breathing? HE'S FUCKING DYING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO RECRUIT?

This was in response to that actually happening, and the officer trying to hold the guy up to keep the weight off the noose until a second officer arrived and they could cut him down. At this remove, I don't recall if they told us if the guy lived or died, but the image of holding a person choking to death in a noose while you struggle to hold him up stuck with me well enough I never went on duty without a blade, and one with serrations to make cutting an extension cord easier.

[KeeFus]

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1209892/

[Hambo]

I recall in the Academy we were told to always carry a knife, and done so with this scenario:

Suicide in progress, you just walked in and he stepped off the chair. He's hanging from an extension cord.

It wasn't an extension cord but a friend did just that. EMS was a couple minutes behind him, but if he hadn't had a knife clipped in his pocket that would have been enough to time to kill the guy. I used mine to cut two old ladies out of an overturned car, slip the door lock to get to an elderly woman who couldn't get to the door, and about a zillion other things.

It seems like some people are always, "You've got a knife?! The horror!" Until they need one for any task and then it's, "Hey, Hambo always has a knife."

[blues]

It seems like some people are always, "You've got a knife?! The horror!" Until they need one for any task and then it's, "Hey, Hambo always has a knife."

At least one. I usually had a pocket knife clipped to my pants pocket...and a small neck knife.

[Flamingo]

Thank you for the links!

[txdpd]

As a friendly reminder always make sure electrical cords are unplugged before cutting them. If someone is hanging by wires and your not positive that they are dead, that's the wires not the person, leave it alone.


It wasn't an extension cord but a friend did just that. EMS was a couple minutes behind him, but if he hadn't had a knife clipped in his pocket that would have been enough to time to kill the guy. I used mine to cut two old ladies out of an overturned car, slip the door lock to get to an elderly woman who couldn't get to the door, and about a zillion other things.

It seems like some people are always, "You've got a knife?! The horror!" Until they need one for any task and then it's, "Hey, Hambo always has a knife."

I use my knife to cut my Chipotle burritos in half, lot less messy than trying to rip one in half in a squad car.

Just as bad as the knife is getting asked for an extra flashlight.

[Dagga Boy]

I m not logged in much, but PM me if you want any advice on how to write policy and how to get past some hurdles. I spent several years on this exact subject.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2002/10/on-the-cutting-edge.aspx

[Coyotesfan97]

I recall in the Academy we were told to always carry a knife, and done so with this scenario:

Suicide in progress, you just walked in and he stepped off the chair. He's hanging from an extension cord. What are you going to do recruit? How are you going to get him down and get him breathing? HE'S FUCKING DYING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO RECRUIT?

This was in response to that actually happening, and the officer trying to hold the guy up to keep the weight off the noose until a second officer arrived and they could cut him down. At this remove, I don't recall if they told us if the guy lived or died, but the image of holding a person choking to death in a noose while you struggle to hold him up stuck with me well enough I never went on duty without a blade, and one with serrations to make cutting an extension cord easier.

I used a brand new Boker fixed blade to cut down a guy who hung himself with an extension cord. It cut like a champ!

[serialsolver]

Tell him you use it to unjam the copier.

He’ll understand that and may start carrying a knife also.

Ya just got to talk on their level.


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[Coyotesfan97]

Nice article

[Robert Mitchum]

I witnessed an office Stab a guy with a miniature crossbow Arrow.
Back in 1980 or 81 ... Drug dealer who had it on the table of his living room.
Than they threw him down a flight of stairs .. happened so fast I did not see a thing.;)
The dealer went to grab it and that was a big mistake.

I was in charge of the Security of a complex in a shit part of town and had keys to let the Cops in the back way.
I laughed so hard I almost threw up.

[serialsolver]

I apologize for the smart response that’s not helpful.

I can’t imagine going on duty without a good knife for prying and cutting chores. I used a knife a lot on patrol, crime scenes and search warrants.

I remember one night I ran over a trash bag that wrapped up round the drive shaft of the patrol car and made a horrible banging and thumping noise. I needed a knife that night.

I wish I could remember more and be more helpful.

I really have unjammed a copier with a knife.


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[Erick Gelhaus]

While I imagine there are others teaching on the subject, we brought in George Williams of Cutting Edge Training to an initial end user and instructor courses.

[Dr. No]

How about "I'm a man, and men carry tools they use every day to work in this world." Seriously. What man doesn't carry a damn knife??

[lwt16]

How about "I'm a man, and men carry tools they use every day to work in this world." Seriously. What man doesn't carry a damn knife??

It does boggle my mind as well. I can remember getting my first knife in 1978 and I don't think I have been without one since......even in public schools as that was quite commonly found in a kid's pocket dump back in the day.

I can remember my grandfather handing me a small whet stone and teaching me how to maintain my knives.

A small SAK, three blade whittler, etc goes everywhere with me.

On duty, aside from the aforementioned defense use of the knife, I have used mine countless times on seatbelts at crashes, airbags, cutting debris off axles, cutting plastic bumpers free of cars to prevent waiting for wreckers, packages, rope.........I would estimate I cut something weekly on the job.

Hard core uses I grab my Leatherman Surge and use either the serrated blade or the plain blade.

Delicate everyday stuff I use my Case carbon whittler.

I carry two folders for defensive use and they rarely get used as I want them to stay battle ready sharp. One is a concealed Spyderco Para 2 and the other is a Spyderco Tenacious. So technically, I carry four knives on me on duty.

Not having a single blade? The horror!

Regards.

[blues]

How about "I'm a man, and men carry tools they use every day to work in this world." Seriously. What man doesn't carry a damn knife??

True dat. I started at about age 7 and have carried one since.

Thanks, grandpa.

I've posted the following elsewhere but it is germane to the above:

From an old volume in my bookcase, "On Your Own In The Wilderness" by Colonel Townsend Whelen and Bradford Angier (1958):


"The most indispensable tool for a hunter or fisherman or camper, and in fact for any outdoor man and boy anywhere, is the knife-a businesslike knife, sharp and keen. Mrs. Whelen's aunt, who taught high school Latin for thirty years in Nebraska, had the right idea. She asked every class, "Which boys have a jackknife in their pocket?" The ones who had none did not rate very high with her.

Her philosophy was that if a boy did not have a knife and know how to use it, he was not likely to grow up able to do many things for himself...I have had a knife like this in my back pants pocket ever since I was knee-high to a chopping block."

[Dr. No]

True dat. I started at about age 7 and have carried one since.

Thanks, grandpa.

I've posted the following elsewhere but it is germane to the above:

From an old volume in my bookcase, "On Your Own In The Wilderness" by Colonel Townsend Whelen and Bradford Angier (1958):I still have my totin chip card around here somewhere. One of the first big lessons of being responsible in life...

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[Rex G]

Well, I did not document as use-of-force in a report, because no use-of-force became involved, but did have a knife in-hand during a tactical entry moment. In an area with a number of thefts and burglaries, using stolen vans of the general E350 type, we approached such a parked, stolen van. The rear doors were slightly ajar, held by bungie cord. The only way to approach unseen by potential occupants was from the rear. I held my karambit folder in the “extended” grip, which means the ring was on my left index finger. This allowed my left hand to be useful as a support hand for my duty pistol, being held in my right hand. Upon reaching the doors, I held my pistol one-handed in a High #2, averted so as not to point the muzzle toward my left hand/arm, and hooked the bungie with the karambit, being held in my extended left hand. I then stepped rearward, which cut the bungie as it drew tightly across the blade, then moved my left hand back to its role support-hand role, and again extended my pistol. The karambit remained on my left index finger, where it did not interfere with handling the pistol. The van was found unoccupied, so no documentable gun-point situation occurred, and therefore no use-of-force documented.

The details? Well, it was an east-west street, in Houston, Texas, probably Johnson or Edwards Street, several blocks west of Houston Avenue. I remember my duty pistol was my P229R DAK, which I started carrying in November 2004, and carried until October 2015. My unit number would have been 1A54N or 91A99. I very much doubt I have any notes, because I do not remember being the primary unit. (Hurricane Harvey made most of my old notes and copies into a mushy mess, anyway.) Now that I am retired, I cannot send anything from a houstontx.gov account, which limits my helpfulness.

Anecdote: While it was almost certainly not documented, and it occurred before I was an LEO, one of my mentors told me that he had used a knife to negotiate a surrender. The disturbed individual was holding a knife, and dared one or more deputies to shoot him. My mentor unfolded HIS knife, which changed the playing field; the disturbed individual may have been ready to die by police gunfire, but was not prepared to be cut, so he dropped his knife, and surrendered, while protesting the unfairness of my mentor’s unusual tactic. (To be clear, I would not recommend this, especially in this day of body-worn video cameras, and everbody and their dog recording us with smart phones, go-pros, and drones.)

[ST911]

I carry a benchmade SOP-C knife on my vest and one of the senior officers in my squad asked me why I have it. I told him I have it in case I get in an entangled fight on the ground and and I need to go lethal and I can’t get to my firearm. He then asked if there are any documented LEO uses of knives. I have done some searches on google, but most of the news articles I have found have been why cops should not shoot people with knives. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Use of "senior officers in my squad" implies you're a junior. If so, consider not bothering and just do your thing. If you have to explain the merits of a knife to a grown man, well... I've not cut anyone off me with a knife, but I've cut incalculable ropes, cords, dying wild game, seatbelts, clothing, umbilical cords, sandwiches, fingernails, containers and packages, etc. Some, with lifesaving effect. Utility is the stuff others might understand and don't mark you as a loose cannon waiting to cut someone.

[Rex G]

”I carry a benchmade SOP-C knife on my vest...”


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To be blunt, there is your problem. Get that thing off your vest, or be ready for the unintended consequences.

We lost the OK to routinely wear external “tactical” vests, while in the normal street patrol uniform, about a year after they were approved, probably because of officers hanging things on the vests. The chief saw me in my Mayflower plate carrier vest, after this change, and said nothing, probably because I kept my vest “slick,” except for the radio holder affixed at low left, just a bit higher than it would be if on my belt.

[hiro]

From Immediate Action's January 2018 blog: (http://www.iacombatives.com/2018/01/) http://knifenews.com/cop-reaches-for-knife-in-fight-for-his-life/

[blues]

From Immediate Action's January 2018 blog: (http://www.iacombatives.com/2018/01/) http://knifenews.com/cop-reaches-for-knife-in-fight-for-his-life/

Though it's only peripherally related, I'm proud to say that the president of Timberline Knives, John Anthon, is an old friend of mine and he is very pro-law enforcement as he served as a reserve deputy in the Buffalo, NY area.

Some years back he gave me a bunch of knives and sharpening gear to distribute to agents on my job. That's just the kind of guy he is.

So glad the trooper survived the ordeal...and hope the mutt got all that was coming to him.

[Mickey]

Tulsa PD Officer fends off gun grab- http://www.newson6.com/story/20627201/tpd-officer-talks-about-fighting-off-suspect-who-tried-to-steal-his-gun

[nwhpfan]

To be blunt, there is your problem. Get that thing off your vest, or be ready for the unintended consequences.

We lost the OK to routinely wear external “tactical” vests, while in the normal street patrol uniform, about a year after they were approved, probably because of officers hanging things on the vests. The chief saw me in my Mayflower plate carrier vest, after this change, and said nothing, probably because I kept my vest “slick,” except for the radio holder affixed at low left, just a bit higher than it would be if on my belt.

I think the problem might be your agency or chief -

The SOCP knife is condoned and encouraged at my agency. Our agency supported an agency wide group buy from Benchmade direct. This after one of our deputies was forced to use a knife to defend himself after being shot with his own gun.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2017/02/clackamas_county_deputy_injure.html

[Rex G]

I think the problem might be your agency or chief -

The SOCP knife is condoned and encouraged at my agency. Our agency supported an agency wide group buy from Benchmade direct. This after one of our deputies was forced to use a knife to defend himself after being shot with his own gun.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2017/02/clackamas_county_deputy_injure.html

The problem was not with the agency or chief. The past several chiefs had condoned knives, and the new chief has said nothing to change that. The problem is that citizens see gear hanging on tactical vests, and some can be uncomfortable with it.

My co-workers knew me as the guy with plenty of knives and guns, but everything was kept low-profile and discreet.

[nwhpfan]

The problem was not with the agency or chief. The past several chiefs had condoned knives, and the new chief has said nothing to change that. The problem is that citizens see gear hanging on tactical vests, and some can be uncomfortable with it.

My co-workers knew me as the guy with plenty of knives and guns, but everything was kept low-profile and discreet.

I think the SOCP is as useful as the come...and about as discreet as well. Probably 99% have no idea what it is. Someday Benchmade will probably make it in navy blue, hunter green, etc. to match outer carriers. Yeah, if somebody is hanging hand grenades and K-bars off their outer carrier, it gives the wrong impression and can lead to "broad changes" that may scoop up some good guys doing a smart thing. And every agency has "that guy."

[NMPOPS]

28 years in LE and the only LE use of a knife of any kind that I am aware of is cutting seat belts and other normal knife use. I personally used one to cut seat belts at wrecks 3 times and one of those was me. (I was hanging upside down in my overturned car. As a detective, yes a carried a knife daily.
Also as a side note in my career, I investigated more than a few stabbings 1 involved a Buck 110, another involved a SAK and all the remainder involved the use of kitchen cutlery.

[txdpd]

I think the problem might be your agency or chief -

The SOCP knife is condoned and encouraged at my agency. Our agency supported an agency wide group buy from Benchmade direct. This after one of our deputies was forced to use a knife to defend himself after being shot with his own gun.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2017/02/clackamas_county_deputy_injure.html

I don't carry magazines in an open top carrier anymore. I got in fight, bad guy grabbed a magazine, hit me in the head with it, and I got lucky that all I needed was stitches. That guy was trying to get away, he didn't go out of his way to try to hurt me. He could have easily killed me. I don't know anyone else that it's happened too, but anything you carry is fair game to be used against you, so don't make it easy. I don't give a shit about the politics. Leaving a knife hanging out there is asking for trouble. Not the I got talked to by my supervisor kind of trouble, the I didn't make it home at the end of my shift trouble. Idiot officers asking idiot questions and ninny citizens making ninny complaints, are giving a pretty big clue that someone is doing a pretty lousy job protecting themselves. Out of sight, out of everyone's mind.


Also as a side note in my career, I investigated more than a few stabbings 1 involved a Buck 110, another involved a SAK and all the remainder involved the use of kitchen cutlery.

I don't think I've seen many stabbing with knives (semantics shemantics). Lots of cuttings. As rare as they are, homeless on homeless screwdriver attacks are almost always fatal since they getting deep and making lots of holes.

[secondstoryguy]

I’ve heard of a female officer in the central Texas area that got in a tussle with a BG, he got behind her in kinda a bear hug position, and she reportedly drove a pushknife through his hand ending the attack. IIRC age might have been grabbing for her gun.

I carry my knife clipped into my waistband in a bladerigs sheath. It’s in a weak hand appendix orientation. With my external carrier and duty belt on it’s pretty hard to see and grab if your a bad guy.

[nwhpfan]

I don't carry magazines in an open top carrier anymore. I got in fight, bad guy grabbed a magazine, hit me in the head with it, and I got lucky that all I needed was stitches. That guy was trying to get away, he didn't go out of his way to try to hurt me. He could have easily killed me. I don't know anyone else that it's happened too, but anything you carry is fair game to be used against you, so don't make it easy. I don't give a shit about the politics. Leaving a knife hanging out there is asking for trouble. Not the I got talked to by my supervisor kind of trouble, the I didn't make it home at the end of my shift trouble. Idiot officers asking idiot questions and ninny citizens making ninny complaints, are giving a pretty big clue that someone is doing a pretty lousy job protecting themselves. Out of sight, out of everyone's mind.



I don't think I've seen many stabbing with knives (semantics shemantics). Lots of cuttings. As rare as they are, homeless on homeless screwdriver attacks are almost always fatal since they getting deep and making lots of holes.

Interesting experience...
The person that uses a knife off their vest to save their life has a different opinion on the matter than somebody who has had their knife taken away. You cannot eliminate all possibilities that may result in getting hurt in this job and you cannot fully prepare for the counter to every possibility either. Each person should carefully evaluate what/how they want/will protect themselves and prepare accordingly.

[Flamingo]

Just as a follow up. I sent a list of the links to the Officer that made the comment. He was impressed that I reached out and provided a list of the documented uses. I think he is going to start carrying a back up knife now.