Grip pressure for a new shooter

[jaym_100]

When teaching a first time or very new shooter when do you tell them to grip the gun extremely tight. There are lots of discussions about grip pressure on here and it seems most GM's crush the gun. I find that it helps me and helps most people who have some experience shooting, but with brand new people I'm not sure if that is the time to concentrate on crushing the gun. I'm also not sure that isn't not the rights time.

[JHC]

I've coached a couple that manifested a weak grip. How to make it real?

I said "shake my hand".

When they did I gave them a crush grip handshake. Not turn a bricket into a diamond but damn strong. They got the message. All improved.

[03RN]

I always tell new shooters to grip as hard as they can without inducing shaking.

[LSP552]

I really don’t like the term crush. I do demonstrate with a very firm hand shake. When teaching new folks, trigger control is always my primary focus, because that’s the hardest to get right. That’s not to say sight alignment/picture, grip, stance, etc isn’t important. IMO, a building block approach works best, each technique builds off the other.

Sometimes terms don’t translate well, which is why I personally don’t like the crush word. It’s easy to tweak grip pressure and experiment with adding more, but careful not to mask or introduce trigger control issues.

[GJM]

All good answers. I see it in phases — initially grip hard enough they don’t drop the gun or induce malfunctions, then learn trigger control, then learn to grip harder so they can go faster.

Many new shooters think they should grip harder with their firing hand and under appreciate how much comes from the support hand, and that should be explained right off.

[RJ]

Ok so I’m a new shooter and have always wondered about support hand grip.

I’m a lefty, and grip hard enough to where I normally take off my wedding ring at the range, else it hurts. So I have to take it easy wrapping my support hand around.

Am I doing it wrong?

I feel this mostly when shooting ‘The Test’. I’d like to break a score of 90, and am thinking this will come with more trigger Control, managing reset during recoil and prepping the trigger appropriately for the next shot, but I thought I’d ask this side question.

[LSP552]

Ok so I’m a new shooter and have always wondered about support hand grip.

I’m a lefty, and grip hard enough to where I normally take off my wedding ring at the range, else it hurts. So I have to take it easy wrapping my support hand around.

Am I doing it wrong?
.

Is your grip interfering with your press? Over gripping with the strong hand certainly can.

This is going to sound controversial, but sometimes a looser grip isn’t a bad thing. Not everyone shoots best with a super hard support hand crush. Some people do better with a more equal grip.

Plastic guns tend to be more sensitive to grip than metal guns and finding what works best for you is the path to walk. Grip it firmly but you might want to try backing off a bit, or gripping harder. Pay attention to what your front sight is doing while exploring grip. Does it return to the notch or do you have to drive it there? I don’t personally care how it lifts, I just want it to come back to the same place.

For ME, and when shooting GLOCKs, I am more consistent with very firm front to back pressure and less heavy side pressure. My hands, my guns, YMMV.

Trying to muscle the gun may not always be the best thing for a beginner to focus on.

[Clusterfrack]

I agree with LSP552, and would go even further. “Trying” to muscle the gun is probably not a good idea, except when you’re practicing to build a stronger grip. Goal: grip hard without trying to grip hard. Takes practice.

[LSP552]

“Trying” to muscle the gun is probably not a good idea, except when you’re practicing to build a stronger grip. Goal: grip hard without trying to grip hard. Takes practice.

^ much win here! Like pressing the trigger without thinking about pressing the trigger....

[RJ]

Thanks guys. I’ve been experimenting with a push pull in Dry Practice also and will evaluate it next Range session.
LSP552 Ken, yep my sights return to target and I use that to break the next shot (in an ideal world; shooting The Test induces a lot of pressure to put everything into place for repetitive, careful presses.). I’m getting better, my first target strings a couple years ago looked like I was trying to pick out a diagonal line low and right. Now my POI while not all in the black more or less surrounds the target.

On a gun related note, I’ve noticed I seem to shoot better with the more squared off profile of the G19.5, as opposed to the Marilyn Monroe curves of my VP9. I think the square grip is easier for me to stabilize for my size M hands. Would not have thought of that as a plus for the Glock, but it seems so.

[JAD]

The advantage of a strong grip for a new shooter has less to do with recoil control and more to trigger movement isolation. A strong grip is a crutch for a bad trigger press. I like crutches.

[Clusterfrack]

Rich—I agree about the square Glock grip. Only one way to grip it right. I find the “ergonomic” guns like M&P to have an ambiguous grip.

Also, just personally, push-pull really doesn’t work for me. Like really ducking doesn’t work at all and seems like a terrible way to hold a gun. Just my take, and I know some good shooters use it.

[RJ]

Rich—I agree about the square Glock grip. Only one way to grip it right. I find the “ergonomic” guns like M&P to have an ambiguous grip.

Also, just personally, push-pull really doesn’t work for me. Like really ducking doesn’t work at all and seems like a terrible way to hold a gun. Just my take, and I know some good shooters use it.

Thanks. My USMC son (Gunny) and I were discussing marksmanship last time I was up in Jacksonville NC. He shoots pretty well. He suggested it after watching the video of me at the Columbia Cascade Match in Dundee OR. So I’m trying it out in Dry Practice.

Interesting stuff. [emoji4]

[45dotACP]

I tend to grip my Glock sorta "firmly". I'll grip a 1911 a little harder because it is a heavier recoiling gun and takes a little more focus for recoil management, and trigger freeze isn't such an issue with a short light breaking trigger, but for my Glocks I can't grip my hardest or I'll be stuck at 0.25 splits while running the gun as fast as possible.

I actually lighten up when shooting fast and just try to track the sights a little harder. If I am seeing a consistent sight video, I can keep splits around .20 and anything much faster is higher hanging fruit than say transition speed.

A shot at 25 or farther makes me tighten up my grip a little.

I'd say try to read your sights. Too hard or too loose a grip for me has always manifested as the sights being more difficult to settle.

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[Robinson]

Even though I shoot a 9mm 1911 I grip the gun pretty tight. I find that if I don't, I can't get good enough results to even worry about trigger press and finer aspects of shooting. So for me anyway a tight grip is fundamental to shooting.

[spinmove_]

For ME, and when shooting GLOCKs, I am more consistent with very firm front to back pressure and less heavy side pressure. My hands, my guns, YMMV.

Trying to muscle the gun may not always be the best thing for a beginner to focus on.

Personally I perceive myself shooting better and faster when I grip harder with my support hand and loosen up a bit with my primary hand. But that’s how I “perceive” it. I may very well be imparting roughly the same ratio of pressure as you. In the past I’ve had a tendency to really over grip with my primary hand and get super lax with my support hand, so there’s that...

Your support hand allows you to go fast. Your primary hand controls your trigger and therefore your accuracy. I don’t know about you, but when I relax just a bit I find I’m able to just “do” something easier and better. That goes for anything, not just pressing a trigger.


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[JAD]

I use Cooper’s “grouse” grip with my strong hand and grip hard enough with my weak hand to tear up the skin on my knuckles.

[03RN]

Another way I use to diagnose grip issues is to see where the shooter is hitting.

Right handed shooter shooting left? More trigger finger and more support grip. I've watched groups walk around targets untill we dial in the shooters perfect grip and trigger finger placement.

[txdpd]

GM's are chasing fractions of second and are well beyond the point of diminishing returns, just because they do something doesn't mean it's necessary for the little people. There is no good reason to not take advantage of their hard work and experience but keep things in perspective.

How tightly or firmly a gun is gripped needs to be balanced with consistency. Telling a shooter to have a firmer or stronger grip when they do not have the endurance to maintain that level of grip through out a string of fire or shooting session, is counter productive to progress. There are ways to improve and work with a weak but consistent grip.

[gomerpyle]

Definitely share this opinion. I find I am more accurate with my VP9 - but find the sights on a G17gen5 returning more quickly. I suspect it is because of the Glock's square grip.


Thanks guys. I’ve been experimenting with a push pull in Dry Practice also and will evaluate it next Range session.
LSP552 Ken, yep my sights return to target and I use that to break the next shot (in an ideal world; shooting The Test induces a lot of pressure to put everything into place for repetitive, careful presses.). I’m getting better, my first target strings a couple years ago looked like I was trying to pick out a diagonal line low and right. Now my POI while not all in the black more or less surrounds the target.

On a gun related note, I’ve noticed I seem to shoot better with the more squared off profile of the G19.5, as opposed to the Marilyn Monroe curves of my VP9. I think the square grip is easier for me to stabilize for my size M hands. Would not have thought of that as a plus for the Glock, but it seems so.

[gomerpyle]

Well said.


I find the “ergonomic” guns like M&P to have an ambiguous grip.

[ken grant]

A very good video on grip . Well worth watching .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNmnk-Ya8WQ

[Hemiram]

The worst thing I ever did to my shooting skill was to listen to a guy who did shoot great and grip the gun in a way I just didn't like. He kept wanting me to grip harder, almost to the point of shaking, and it screwed me all up, accuracy went to hell and after I would shoot 100 rounds of 9mm out of a full sized steel gun my hands just killed me later on. My hands have had a lot of wear and tear, fights as a bouncer/security guard, working on cars, and being over 60 have made them sensitive to cold, and gripping anything in a death grip is just asking for pain. After I abandoned his teachings, it took me a long time to get back to the lousy (Compared to when I was 40) level I was before I tried to improve with his methods. I learned to shoot basically alone, by myself, and there are things that I disagree with that seem to be "canon" and the "crush" grip is one of them. Even when I was 22 and had the strongest grip of anyone I knew, I shot better holding a gun comfortably, not more than 50% of what I could have, and not squeezing it to the point of pain like a friend's brother in law does when he shakes your hand. He loved shaking hands with guys and really laying it on. I decided at a party to do a preemptive strike and smash his hand as hard as I possibly could. He didn't find it amusing when it was done to him. Not at all. I was a hit at that party though, and was offered a lot of congrats on making him whine.

[HopetonBrown]

He kept wanting me to grip harder, almost to the point of shaking, and it screwed me all up, accuracy went to hell and after I would shoot 100 rounds of 9mm out of a full sized steel gun my hands just killed me later on.

Jerry Miculek has said if your hands aren't sore after a shooting session you weren't gripping hard enough.

[Hemiram]

Jerry Miculek has said if your hands aren't sore after a shooting session you weren't gripping hard enough.

well, I guess he would know best, but if it makes it hard to go to sleep without taking pain meds, that's too much. And that's what the guy supposedly helping me wanted me to do. I can shoot okay. Not great, but okay, and that's about as good as I can hope for at this point. I have high confidence that I can defend myself if I need to with a handgun. I know I'll probably never be any better than I am right now. If I can keep that, I will be thrilled.

[Slalom.45]

I think that "crush the gun" is an overly simplistic answer that may harm a lot of people. I have tried to do this for some time until recently attending a Stoeger class. His description is a "firm handshake" of the gun hand, and everything you have with the support hand. After him repeatedly cuing me to relax my gun hand a bit my nasty habit of low and/or left self corrected quickly.

That feeling of firm handshake/as much as you can is my current focus in live and dry fire. I find that this not only helps with not pushing the gun with the strong hand overgripping with the press, but also my splits are a touch faster as my trigger finger is more free to move.

[HopetonBrown]

After him repeatedly cuing me to relax my gun hand a bit my nasty habit of low and/or left self corrected quickly.



Why would a firmer grip with your dominant hand be the cause of a pre ignition flinch?

[scjbash]

Why would a firmer grip with your dominant hand be the cause of a pre ignition flinch?

Low/low left isn't necessarily a flinch. Crushing the grip with your dominant hand can cause problems with trigger finger control and isolation. You end up with a sympathetic squeeze and aren't moving just your trigger finger.

Not saying that's what Slalom was doing, but it's something that can happen.

[HopetonBrown]

Crushing the grip with your dominant hand can cause problems with trigger finger control and isolation. You end up with a sympathetic squeeze and aren't moving just your trigger finger.

If you're crushing your grip, how can you have a sympathetic squeeze when you're already at max? That's one of the benefits of a crush grip.

[Slalom.45]

If you are maximally gripping with your dominate hand it is much more difficult to isolate your finger for a straight back press of the trigger without side pressure or the effort causing the "sympathetic squeeze" mentioned.

[scjbash]

If you're crushing your grip, how can you have a sympathetic squeeze when you're already at max? That's one of the benefits of a crush grip.

In theory, that's true. Not so much in practice. Most people (in my experience) can't keep 100% of their possible grip pressure, and keep it neutral, while working the trigger. The slightest deviation allows the sympathetic movement.

[spinmove_]

In theory, that's true. Not so much in practice. Most people (in my experience) can't keep 100% of their possible grip pressure, and keep it neutral, while working the trigger. The slightest deviation allows the sympathetic movement.

This is also my experience. I might be able to maintain that crush grip for a few magazines. Beyond that I get accelerated fatigue and will start getting sympathetic squeezes without realizing it simply because I’m trying to keep that crush grip down and can’t because I’m tired. Relaxing the firing hand enough to isolate the trigger finger allows much more consistent neutral pressure for longer.

Try shooting SHO using a crush grip for 50-100 straight rounds. You’re probably going to eventually start slinging rounds low-left (or low-right) because you’re either loosening up too much or you’re squeezing the trigger with your whole hand.

Again, my experience. YMMV.


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[HopetonBrown]

Try shooting SHO using a crush grip for 50-100 straight rounds. You’re probably going to eventually start slinging rounds low-left (or low-right) because you’re either loosening up too much or you’re squeezing the trigger with your whole hand.



So don't fire 100 rounds SHO straight (how often does this occur?) with a crush grip because your hand will become tired causing a looser grip. So instead just have a looser grip? Not tracking with quite a few of you.

[spinmove_]

So don't fire 100 rounds SHO straight (how often does this occur?) with a crush grip because your hand will become tired causing a looser grip. So instead just have a looser grip? Not tracking with quite a few of you.

Shooting SHO/WHO I find “firm handshake” strength and stiffening my arm seems to help manage recoil and keep shots consistently where I want them.

Shooting freestyle I find “firm handshake” strength strong hand and crush grip with support hand gives me good recoil management and allows me to isolate the trigger finger well enough.


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[scjbash]

So don't fire 100 rounds SHO straight (how often does this occur?) with a crush grip because your hand will become tired causing a looser grip. So instead just have a looser grip? Not tracking with quite a few of you.

This is what I've seen and experienced myself, or at least this is how I interpret it. The shooter grips as hard as he can with his strong hand. This causes him to lose some control of his trigger finger. He struggles to press it straight to the rear, and he struggles to move it with much speed. He definitely struggles to press it straight to the rear while working the trigger quickly. So he starts paying even more attention to working the trigger and his grip pressure backs off some. Not enough that he's gained any control, but enough that part of the hand can apply more pressure than other parts. That allows the sympathetic squeeze to move the gun as the trigger is pressed, because part of the grip ramps back up towards 100% while part doesn't. If his trigger finger is hooking low-left his other fingers follow that path and bring the gun with it. I experienced this when my support hand was injured and i tried compensating by crushing with my strong hand. Even with not being able to grip hard at all with my support hand I still shot better by not crushing it with my strong hand.