FANTASTIC article on the Dallas PD Shooting

[LittleLebowski]

Putting this in our LE section in case we start discussing the use of the robot. Personally, I thought it was good.

https://interactives.dallasnews.com/2018/standoff/

[WobblyPossum]

I really got a lot out of reading that article yesterday. I shared it with a buddy.

[GyroF-16]

That was a good one.
Thanks for sharing, LL.

[babypanther]

Going through a Safariland class over the summer, one of the SWAT men involved that has since retired gave us the debrief of this incident. It was a fascinating lecture.

[RJ]

That was a very bad day. It gives me chills reading that article.

Thanks for posting; it was well worth the time to read.

“We are the Fucking Cavalry.”

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/e9bb400a3eabcfcbcb3ca9348a91bba4.jpg

[blues]

Excellent article. I am somewhat concerned about providing this level of detail but perhaps it's unwarranted and just my ingrained caution kicking in.

My thoughts are with all the heroes...the living and the fallen.

[Duces Tecum]

Thank you.

[JSGlock34]

Thanks for posting. Excellent article.

[LittleLebowski]

I really, really liked the bit about Officer Gordon explaining the truth to his niece regarding police killings and race. That guy would not lack for drinks around me.

[TheCarl]

Only partway through the article, I think it's poorly written Hollywood garbage. Wtf is a high caliber round? An AK-74 is 'superior firepower'?

The author is good at drama, but this is a TV script, written by someone who doesn't know guns, which leads me to believe they don't know police procedure, cops, law, etc.

Harumph.

[BehindBlueI's]

I just wonder if some offensive explosive training might be warranted in today's threat environment. I cringed a little reading the discussion on C4 and guessing how much to use, how much det cord it takes to detonate it, and relying solely on over pressure. I was a Combat Engineer and used C4 quite a bit. You can make offensive explosives that don't make shrapnel and don't rely solely on over pressure. With active shooters holing up, suicide bombers, etc. I see no reason to send humans in to the line of fire when a human controlled machine can do the same thing.

[BehindBlueI's]

Only partway through the article, I think it's poorly written Hollywood garbage. Wtf is a high caliber round? An AK-74 is 'superior firepower'?

The author is good at drama, but this is a TV script, written by someone who doesn't know guns, which leads me to believe they don't know police procedure, cops, law, etc.

Harumph.

Being a journalist isn't about being an expert, as nobody is an expert in every field. It's about talking to experts and actual participants, then recounting their story. I think the author did a pretty damn good job of doing that.

[Drang]

I cringed a little reading the discussion on C4 and guessing how much to use,

I just refer to the works of Colonel Kratman, "Factor 'P'".

[Hambo]

I just wonder if some offensive explosive training might be warranted in today's threat environment.

I would say yes, along with some other paradigm changes.

[Lester Polfus]

I just refer to the works of Colonel Kratman, "Factor 'P'".

The good Col. was blowing up buildings in other people's countries. When it's the community college in your town, things are different.

I was thinking the same thing, regarding offensive use of demo. We're likely to see this sort of thing again, and blowing somebody out of a hole may be called for. These guys kind of winged it, and it worked out, but I wonder if people are planning for this sort of thing.

[Baldanders]

There's a good chance this will be the basis of an assignment or two for my students.

Excellent writing!

The author may not know guns that well, but he doesn't sound nearly as ignorant as many journalists out there. In the otherwise excellent "Columbine," there's the lovely "semiautomatic submachine gun," in reference to a Hi-Point carbine. Heck, the "Oxford Companion to WWII" has errors such as saying the diameter of a .303 bullet is 9mm. And Oxford is supposed to be the gold standard of reference books. I'm grateful when writers at least avoid hideous errors of fact about firearms if they aren't enthusiasts. Sadly, ignorance on technical/mechcanical matters is widely tolerated in non-technical writing, for the most part.

[JR1572]

I’ve been avoiding reading this since it was posted. I just finished reading it, and I’m glad I did. Thanks for sharing it.

JR1572

[BehindBlueI's]

The good Col. was blowing up buildings in other people's countries. When it's the community college in your town, things are different.


Right. I remember the "when in doubt for which formula to use, remember P=Plenty" at demo school and laughing along with everyone else...but there's times you want just this particular thing fucked up without fucking up every other thing surrounding said thing.

I've never been tasked with killing someone with a robot delivered explosive, but a water hammer would be where I'd start my testing. As breaching charge, it's a way to use hydraulic force to open doors without making a lot of splinters and shrapnel, as well as multiplying the explosive. I suspect it could be used in an anti-personnel role more effectively than pure over pressure when there's a hesitation to use shrapnel. It would also be a short range affect, reduce the chances of setting a fire, etc.

[KenpoTex]

Thanks for posting the article. It was informative, but I got a little annoyed at some of the sensationalism.

At the KCMTOA conference a few weeks ago, one of the DPD SWAT guys who was in the college did a debrief of the event.
Based on his account, I don't think the composition and design of the charge was quite as "fly by the seat of our pants" as the article made it sound.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Dr. No]

Speaking as an explosive breacher, the problem is that LE use of explosives has been confined to breaching. Considering the problems with estimating overpressure in a confined environment, there is not a good way to construct a "reasonable" charge that won't bring down half of the building. They were concerned with not letting him out and continuing his rampage, and they had to keep that perimeter. They also wanted verification that he was down without having to bring in construction equipment to dig through rubble and 'hope they got him'.

I am curious why there was not more effort into frag for a traditional IED. If we are using this as deadly force, why not give ourselves a backup option to ensure this is a one shot option.

[Totem Polar]

I’m just getting around to reading this article. Not much to add except this: Danny Canete is my new hero. In addition to everything else, I’ll just say that UNT is an extremely hard music school to get into, especially at the master’s level. Piano performance at top-tier schools like UNT is absurdly competetive: that guy was an olympian before he ever joined SWAT.

Y’all are going to have to trust me on this one: that dude has an iron will, nerves of scandium, and ferocious discipline—he wouldn’t have had a master’s slot at UNT to walk away from without it, and I’m not surprised he comes off the way he does in the article.

I have a list of people that I want to meet in my lifetime in the back of one of my old journals, and I’m going to add that dude to the list, just because I think we’d be able to have some great conversation.


Also, I found this to be compelling:

Banes couldn’t help it; he laughed, too. He’s actually kind of funny, Banes thought. Probably somebody I could have a beer with. Banes thought about his wife and three sons. Why am I here? This is the most completely ridiculous thing I’ve ever been a part of.

Men who might have gotten along in different circumstances, trying to kill each other in a narrow hallway. For what? Banes thought. For what?

[Baldanders]

There's a good chance this will be the basis of an assignment or two for my students.

Excellent writing!

The author may not know guns that well, but he doesn't sound nearly as ignorant as many journalists out there. In the otherwise excellent "Columbine," there's the lovely "semiautomatic submachine gun," in reference to a Hi-Point carbine. Heck, the "Oxford Companion to WWII" has errors such as saying the diameter of a .303 bullet is 9mm. And Oxford is supposed to be the gold standard of reference books. I'm grateful when writers at least avoid hideous errors of fact about firearms if they aren't enthusiasts. Sadly, ignorance on technical/mechcanical matters is widely tolerated in non-technical writing, for the most part.

Necroing this because I did end up using this in my classes, and I will do so again. Thanks LL!

The "why don't you sound black" bit is particularly interesting to cover with students....

[Baldanders]

Oh also, a correction, I believe the author is female.

[StraitR]

Just saw this, due to the recent bump. This is an excellent article. Thank you for posting LittleLebowski.

[Baldanders]

Necroing for the second time, because I still use this...usually paired with a selection from "Columbine," by Dave Cullen.

If anyone is curious, PM me and I will send you the question set I made up for it.

So there's at least one high school teacher serving up pro-LEO material out there!

[Baldanders]

I’m just getting around to reading this article. Not much to add except this: Danny Canete is my new hero. In addition to everything else, I’ll just say that UNT is an extremely hard music school to get into, especially at the master’s level. Piano performance at top-tier schools like UNT is absurdly competetive: that guy was an olympian before he ever joined SWAT.

Y’all are going to have to trust me on this one: that dude has an iron will, nerves of scandium, and ferocious discipline—he wouldn’t have had a master’s slot at UNT to walk away from without it, and I’m not surprised he comes off the way he does in the article.

I have a list of people that I want to meet in my lifetime in the back of one of my old journals, and I’m going to add that dude to the list, just because I think we’d be able to have some great conversation.


Also, I found this to be compelling:

Banes couldn’t help it; he laughed, too. He’s actually kind of funny, Banes thought. Probably somebody I could have a beer with. Banes thought about his wife and three sons. Why am I here? This is the most completely ridiculous thing I’ve ever been a part of.

Men who might have gotten along in different circumstances, trying to kill each other in a narrow hallway. For what? Banes thought. For what?

I emphasize the highly educated, highly skilled, highly dedicated, and highly emphatic nature of the SWAT team here to my students. Reading their bios made me feel pathetic.

I also emphasize the question "If you were facing down a guy who just offed four of your co-workers, what state of mind whould you likely be in?" Who can't identify with Canete?

I found the bit at the end where Larry Gordon treats his own PTSD in hardcorps (but the same way shrinks do it) fashion pretty compelling as well. I'm too lazy to find the link, but there's a bit on YouTube where Gordon was interviewed on Dallas evening news and he seems to give the article his seal of approval.

[Brian T]

This is a hard video to watch, but it needs to be seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMxM5A3Dw-k

They were all heroes that damned night. I'm just a schmuck-and-a-half, but I was at Baylor to show my appreciation, my respect, and to let them know they werent alone. Not knowing the gravity of the situation, if they asked I'd would have helped. All I ended up doing was stopping Pete Schulte (who can get fucked sideways) and an unknown to me, visibly upset DPD plain clothes cop (whom I'd like to find and shake his hand), from tossing fists in front of the media.

I knew many of the officers there that night. I have their personal cell phone numbers, we talk about life often. My mom, who worked for DSO at the jail, knew every DPD officer there that night, including the 4 DPD fatalities. The officer that did the explosive charge, Borchardt, held a mortally wounded Dallas Police Officer (Mark Timothy Nix) in his squad while racing through afternoon Dallas traffic to Parkland. A few years later he was shot in the femoral by a hostage taker at a high rise hotel (audio of this was on that A&E show Dallas SWAT).

Sgt Ivan Gunter stands out, Ahrens, Krol, and Zamarripa where his guys. I'll never forget his words

"I know as an officer we take a lot flack, for what happens around the country. But not a single one of my people deserved *this*. I'm still angry. I still cry. Yeah. I'm pissed. But... by the grace of God, I'm here. I showed up for work the next day. And the days following. So that people will know, when someone knocks you down, you stand your ass back up. They're not going to defeat us. They aren't gonna defeat me. So I stand up, everyday."

I'm no dirty inkie, but I have thought about getting the latter part of this quote tattooed on my arm, because I remember it.

[Baldanders]

This is a hard video to watch, but it needs to be seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMxM5A3Dw-k

They were all heroes that damned night. I'm just a schmuck-and-a-half, but I was at Baylor to show my appreciation, my respect, and to let them know they werent alone. Not knowing the gravity of the situation, if they asked I'd would have helped. All I ended up doing was stopping Pete Schulte (who can get fucked sideways) and an unknown to me, visibly upset DPD plain clothes cop (whom I'd like to find and shake his hand), from tossing fists in front of the media.

I knew many of the officers there that night. I have their personal cell phone numbers, we talk about life often. My mom, who worked for DSO at the jail, knew every DPD officer there that night, including the 4 DPD fatalities. The officer that did the explosive charge, Borchardt, held a mortally wounded Dallas Police Officer (Mark Timothy Nix) in his squad while racing through afternoon Dallas traffic to Parkland. A few years later he was shot in the femoral by a hostage taker at a high rise hotel (audio of this was on that A&E show Dallas SWAT).

Sgt Ivan Gunter stands out, Ahrens, Krol, and Zamarripa where his guys. I'll never forget his words

"I know as an officer we take a lot flack, for what happens around the country. But not a single one of my people deserved *this*. I'm still angry. I still cry. Yeah. I'm pissed. But... by the grace of God, I'm here. I showed up for work the next day. And the days following. So that people will know, when someone knocks you down, you stand your ass back up. They're not going to defeat us. They aren't gonna defeat me. So I stand up, everyday."

I'm no dirty inkie, but I have thought about getting the latter part of this quote tattooed on my arm, because I remember it.

Thanks for the link, I checked out the first bit, waiting until I am done administering exams and feeling a bit more positive about life before watching the whole thing, probably this weekend. I imagine I may end up showing bits of it in class.

Whenever you speak to any of the men involved again, if you would mention at least one high school teacher out there found them highly inspirational, I'd be grateful.

[Baldanders]

I emphasize the highly educated, highly skilled, highly dedicated, and highly emphatic nature of the SWAT team here to my students. Reading their bios made me feel pathetic.

I also emphasize the question "If you were facing down a guy who just offed four of your co-workers, what state of mind whould you likely be in?" Who can't identify with Canete?

I found the bit at the end where Larry Gordon treats his own PTSD in hardcorps (but the same way shrinks do it) fashion pretty compelling as well. I'm too lazy to find the link, but there's a bit on YouTube where Gordon was interviewed on Dallas evening news and he seems to give the article his seal of approval.

English teacher quibble: I meant "highly EMPATHIC nature" above. I felt like it could use a correction, since that particular adjective isn't used much in connection with LE.

[Borderland]

Pretty good read. Thx for posting that LL.

A question for you swat types. Are old fashioned fragmentation grenades not used?

Seems to me these guys could have just thrown a few down the hall and saved an expensive robot.

Maybe I've been watching too many war movies. ;)

[HCM]

Pretty good read. Thx for posting that LL.

A question for you swat types. Are old fashioned fragmentation grenades not used?

Seems to me these guys could have just thrown a few down the hall and saved an expensive robot.

Maybe I've been watching too many war movies. ;)

I’m not aware of any domestic law enforcement agency which uses fragmentation grenades in the United States.