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jmjames
02-01-2012, 02:57 AM
For about a year, I've been working up a Saiga 12. They are a fairly easy and nice gun to work up, have a lot of possibilities, and are totally functional and practical for many things. Despite the association with the "mall ninja" crowd, they aren't merely "tacticool" nightmares. I wasted a good amount of time and money on this build, so hopefully some folks will learn from my mistakes if they choose to go down a similar path!

First, the background... it was about a year ago when I bought a shotgun for the skeet range, a semi auto Weatherby (for the record, I like it a lot, it's a licensed Beretta A390 action put together in Turkey, for $427 at WalMart, it's a super-smooth, reliable autoloader for less than many pump actions). With a child in the house and another on the way, using it for HD purposes was not really something I felt comfortable with, all of the solutions I found for securing a loaded shotgun (like the boxes that surround the breech) involve a key to open them, and the idea of trying to load a shotgun up while there's an intruder in the house sounded like a really bad idea. A friend of mine mentioned in passing the Saiga 12, and when I looked into it, it was exactly what I was looking for. With the ability to be fed from a detachable box magazine, the unloaded shotgun could be stored in the bedroom closet and a magazine stored separately, including a night stand safe, allowing you to go from "inert piece of metal and plastic" to "10+ rounds of 12 gauge" in a few moments. And with high capacity stick mags or drums, you would be able to hold off a good number of intruders in a home invasion scenario; while that isn't a huge concern in my current neighborhood, I plan on living in a much more secluded area in a few years. That sounded ideal to me.

When I was going through this decision, it was around March 2011, and the ATF had been doing some writing about the applicability of certain guns for "sporting purposes", and had a big picture of a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum in it. The gun buying public got into a panic, and within a month or two, prices of the Saiga 12 had gone from $500 - $600 to $700+. To make matters worse, the manufacturer makes them in batches, and there were concerns around the financial stability of that company... shipments were slow, late, and Saiga 12's had gone from "available" to "unobtainable" within weeks. Having some extra cash in my pocket, I didn't mind paying $750 for mine when they came in. I should have known this project was going to cost me a fortune, when I was paying for it, my wife walked into the room, saw my credit card out (and it was an actual credit card, not my debit card), she knew something was up, and gave me a rough time for a WHILE for spending so much money on this. She got me at the usual 2:1 ratio a few weeks later... After a rough wait (one of those "I have a tracking number but it doesn't show any status for three weeks" routines all too common in the gun universe...), my FFL called me up to tell me that it arrived. Here's what I got in the box, other than the basic "sporter" configuration (you can look that up to see an example):

ACCESSORIES:
531

THE MOST USELESS MANUALS IN HISTORY:
532

The first thing I did, was install a Polychoke (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-306/Poly-dsh-Choke-II-Saiga-12/Detail), the "Gasfixers" gas knob (no longer sold, it looks like), and a CSS gas tappet, all from Carolina Shooter Supply (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/). I also ordered a pair of SGM 5 round magazines. Incidentally, they are GREAT to order from, every order I've placed from them was shipped out the next morning.

The Polychoke is a most amazing contraption. It attaches to the outside threads (the S12's barrel is threaded on the outside like a rifle, not on the inside like most shotguns). While a lot of folks like adding a variety of muzzle brakes, flash hiders, and really sharp things that seemingly double as a clumsy bayonet, the Polychoke is really what you want. For $100, it can go from the tightest choke to a spread +3, without tools (though I suggest using a rag or gloves if you've been shooting it, or the wrench that comes with it). Well worth the money!

I took it as-is to the skeet range, and put a variety of birdshot through. What I learned is that the really cheap stuff (Federal bulk pack, Winchester White Box) would fail to cycle, or if it cycled, it would actually fail to cock the hammer back (which could theoretically result in a slam fire, I suppose, depending on the timing of events...). With this configuration, I could either get a lighter recoil spring, try to open up the gas ports a little bit (the factory will put between 2 - 4 gas ports in, of varying sizes, depending on how drunk the workers were that day), or do some work. Reading the forums at Saiga12.com, I decided a bolt polish was in order. Not only would it look nice, but folks report that it helps the cycling quite a bit. I decided to send it off to "Pauly's Steelin'" to have his "glass bolt" mod done (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/61900-paulys-glass-bolt-system/). Pauly was great to work with, though he was so swamped with orders that it took a bit longer than he had hoped for (only a week or two longer). At the same time, I ordered one of Ironwood Design's Saiga 12 furniture sets (http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDNEWSaiga_2.html), in walnut (the set that looks like a basic AK). I also ordered a bunch more parts from Carolina Shooting Supply (I actually put this order in first, because Pauly needed the trigger stuff for his work):

* New mainspring (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-328/AK47-Saiga-JT-Engineering/Detail)
* Tapco G2 trigger, modded for the S12 (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-138/TROMIX-SAIGA-TRIGGER-TAPCO/Detail)
* Recoil buffer (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-225/BLACKJACK-BUFFER-AK47-SAIGA/Detail)
* Pistol grip screw & bushing (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-120/TAPCO-AK-GRIP-SCREW/Detail)
* Tromix trigger guard (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-109/Tromix-DIY-Trigger-Guard/Detail)
* Lower handgaurd bracket from Dinzag (http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_12/bor1220.html) (incidentally, Dinzag really does take up to 2 weeks to ship, which is a bit of an annoyance)

When everything came in, I was bloody impatient, and that was dumb. doing the conversion itself was easy. The biggest hassle was the bolt hold open (it is NOT a last round bolt hold open, it is manual). It is difficult to install. You need to take a lot of material out of the BHO to let the safety be installed, and I found myself doing it over and over and over again to take a little more out then putting it all back together. The first time I did it, I must have spent 45 minutes on it. Ten tries later, and I could do it in 2 minutes. The REALLY big mistakes I made, though:

* When the wood furniture came in, I sanded, oiled it in a night, and waxed it the next day, and felt good about it. While it had a nice color, the finish wasn't good. Walnut has open pores, and so the finish just looks dull unless you fill them in.
* The Ironwood stuff is slightly oversized, and the customer sands/files to fit. Because I was in a hurry, I was taking down the wrong areas of wood, and when I did figure it out, I had taken too much off, so things were loose.
* The factory paints the gun after assembly, so doing the conversion leaves a bare patch on the receiver where the old trigger guard was; I tried lightly sanding the receiver, giving it a few coats of engine primer, then a few coats of engine enamel... all in the same night! While the color was fine, even the slightest bang or scratch would take the paint right off.

With the furniture, I had them add the recoil pad, lightening cuts, and left the side mount for the sling (since the Dinzag handgaurd has a sling loop on the side). One thing I didn't like, is that the recoil pad's screws were flush with the surface of the pad, and therefore would get shoved into my shoulder when the pad compressed. I'm happy I noticed this ahead of time, I just took the screws out, counter sunk the pad a bit, and problem solved (they also looked better being hidden in the pad).

After all of this was done, I took it back out to the skeet range. Lo and behold, the "Glass Bolt" work was astounding! Federal bulk pack and Winchester White Box were now cycling and cocking 100%. This was far better, IMHO, than a recoil spring swap. Who wants to swap a spring to go from birdshot to HD loads? With it now working right, the worst that would happen is I'd forget to turn the gas down, and my shoulder would be howling. I shoot skeet just as badly with the S12 as I do with my 28" Weatherby.

Somewhere along the line, I broke down and ordered an axis pin retaining plate (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-270/Saiga-Axis-Pin-Retaining/Detail), which is worth it! Next time around, I'd save a few bucks and order it in the trigger kit from CSS (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-461/SAIGA-RIFLE-CONVERSION-TRIGGER/Detail). For all the times I broke this thing down and put it back together again, that plate paid for itself in saved time.

At this point, I was happy with the functionality. It cycled great, it was a bit easier to load a mag on a closed bolt (still not a joy, though), the ergonomics were outstanding, and it looked great... except for that awful engine enamel job! I'm not one to throw good money after bad, so I took it over to Lexington Firearms and Gun Works (http://www.lexingtongunworks.com/) right down the road, for a Duracoat job in H&K semi-gloss black. Unfortunately for me, they had just gotten a ton of work right before me, so it took a while, but the results were well worth it. If you are in the Columbia SC area, Hans Miller does an outstanding job; he media blasts everything, totally degreases it, and then does the DC job. For his price (I paid $235, but I know he changes rates right after I put mine in), it is unbeatable, especially if the base coat is junk like the S12 has. If I were doing this at home, I could have earned $500 in the time it would take to get it as clean as Hans did...

Here was the result:

534

When I got it back, I took it to the range to put some slugs and 00 buck through it. With a HD gun it would be good to verify functionality with HD loads and get used to the feel, right? Well, after 15 rounds of slugs, 30 rounds of 00 buck, and 25 rounds of birdshot, I saw something heartbreaking when I put it back away:

533

What had happened was simple. The original stock comes with some coarse threaded screws, and that's what you are "supposed" to use to put the wood stuff on. The screws do not COMPLETELY fill the hole in the tang, and they have a beveled edge around the head. Well, running 00 buck and slugs through it put a lot of pressure on the screw's beveled edge, levering it a bit out of the hole, giving the stock more play, and the receiver slammed the wood until it cracked off. Let me tell you, for what the Ironwood stocks cost, this was an expensive break!

I went to order a new stock from Ironwood, and discovered that they had a new "Sporter" set. The only problem was that it was for UNCONVERTED S12's, with a Monte Carlo style stock. While that would probably be a bit more friendly to the folks at the gun range, 1) I wasn't going to unconvert my gun 2) the ergos on the converted setup are great, not so much the "sporter" style, and 3) the trigger in "sporter" is AWFUL. I also was really unhappy with the handgaurds. My only option to get the upper HG on was a $300 gas tube from Dinzag (http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_12/aks12.html) (or a lot of cautious hacksaw and Dremel work). Neither one appealed to me. Plus, if I just ordered a new buttstock, it wouldn't match the rest of the furniture, being from a different piece of wood (yes, I am selectively anal, I totally rushed those items above, but I sweated the wood being a bit different). Again, I had a bit of extra cash in my pocket, so I did a mix 'n match order from Ironwood: the "sporter" handguard and a new pistol grip and buttstock. The Ironwood sporter HG puts the slingloop on the bottom, so I ordered the stock with the bottom cut for the sling swivel, as well as the recoil pad and the lightening cuts again.

This was the best thing I could have done, and here's why:

* The "sporter" handgaurd setup puts the front sling loop (if I choose to have it at all, I can just use the screw) an inch ahead of where the Dinzag HG retainer does, giving my long arms more room to work with.
* The Dinzag HG retainer has its sling loop to the side, you don't think your hand is near it until it bites your finger during recoil, OUCH! First few rounds of skeet left a nasty bruise on my support hand...
* The Ironwood sporter HG looks SHARP and covers up much of the gas tube; having no upper HG on, I kept finding my support hand/fingers grazing that gas tube, especially during administrative manipulations.
* I was forced to finish the wood RIGHT.
* I got a smooth pistol grip instead of the "fat checkered"; I loved the feel of the "fat checkered grip" (regular is just fine too, I may add), but the oil absorbs so much more on the cut wood, the part ends up much darker than the rest of the wood and looks out of place.

When the parts came in (FYI, Matt from Ironwood is a great guy, but he gets a ton of emails and sometimes doesn't respond, and production times are were a few weeks after the promised date for me), they were outstanding. Apparently, I was the 5th or so person that got the new sporter style HG. This time, I took my bloody TIME. Two weeks, to be exact. First, I test fitted everything, and cautiously took off material to make it fit *just right*. I sanded, and sanded, and sanded some more. I oiled with the "Danish Oil" for a few days (I like it because it dries quickly, you can do 4 coats in an hour, let sit for 4 - 8 hours, and do it again, and it is indoor/outdoor), then I switched to boiled Linseed oil (BLO), which is thicker, takes 24 hours to "cure" between coats, but feels a but harder to me and was filling the pores better. After 10 days of oiling every day (2 - 4 times a day with the Danish oil at first, then once a day with BLO), I got some 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper, soaked it in BLO, and sanded again. This creates a "slurry" of oil and fine sawdust, which fills in the pores. I let this sit 24 hours, did it again, and while they were completely filled, it did in 48 hours what the 10 days before it had done. I did a few more days of BLO, until the pores were almost invisible. I then use the Birchwood Casey "Stock Sheen and Conditioner" on it, which filled in the pores completely, except a few very minor ones that were still left (they were practically canyons when I started...). I put my original recoil pad back on, since the new one also needed to have the screws countersunk. After all was said and done, I had a very nice, satin (not "high gloss", but DEFINITELY "high quality"!) finish. A few coats of Howard's "Feed 'n Wax" (http://www.amazon.com/Howard-FW0016-Feed-N-Wax-Conditioner-16-Ounces/dp/B001BKQYGW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328079958&sr=8-1) later, and I put it back together.

The biggest change I made, was the stock retention system. Instead of drilling holes and using the bad screws again, I drilled much bigger holes, put in some inner threaded brass inserts (Hillman part #880548 from Lowe's, listen as "Wood Insert Nuts Brass 10-24"), and on the top hole I used a button head cap screen (Hillman part #883345, described as "Button Hd Cap Screw 10-24 x 3/4") and on the bottom of the receiver I used a flat head screw (Hillman part #883353, "Flat Head Cap Screw Stainless 10-24 3/4"). Again, I had Hans Miller at Lexington Firearms Duracoat them for me, he turned them around in a week or two and only charged me a couple of bucks. With this set up, the insert nuts had a lot more meat to gain purchase, and they weren't going anywhere. I used blue Loctite on the screws, so no vibration will back them out. I also positioned the stock about 1/8" out from flush, so even if they do back out, they won't be slamming the stock. Here's the setup (you can also see the satin finish on the wood):

536

I omitted the second top receiver screw (under the dust cover), if something can budge this I'll be shocked!

This time, I took it to the 60 yard range with Al T. from the P-F.com forums, with a mix of 00 3" buck (that's a hot load...), 2 3/4" slugs, and some birdshot. With the slugs I got 5/5 on a 12" target at 60 yards with iron sights. Al, never having handled it before, rang his 12" gong 5/5 times (though when a 1 oz slug hits it, it's a bit more bass than 5.56 pinging it :D). For a shotgun with a 19" barrel, that's far beyond "acceptable" in my book. It is not a hunting gun by any means, but if I found myself wanted to hunt in the 10 - 50 yard range, I would certainly feel comfortable doing that. Also, this time I finally put in the recoil buffer (I never bothered to put it in). It didn't perceptibly impact recoil, and it interfered with birdshot from cycling right. I could have gassed up, but it cycled fine on that setting with the exact same loads previous. It also made dealing with the BHO painful because the bolt barely went back far enough.

So, what's next? A few minor tweaks:

* Tromix extended bolt-on bold handle (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-266/Tromix-Saiga-Ak47-extended/Detail) (not 100% sure)
* Either get a pair of 10 or 12 round stick mags a jungle-clip them for HD, or a 20 round drum for HD... this is tough call, the drums seem to be hit or miss on reliability, and they are pretty big, but I really dislike loading on a closed bolt with this gun, so I'd rather have 20 rounds in a drum than 24 in two sticks if I ever find myself holding off a home invasion or similar situation when have a lot of 00 or #1 buck in the pipe would come in handy.
* MD Arms V-Plug (http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/md-arms-saiga-12-vplug-adjustible-gas-plug-p-1548.html); the "Gasfixers" plug doesn't let me get to the lowest two settings because of thread alignment, so I'm overgassed on buckshot and slugs, the V-Plug is designed to take care of that.
* I am considering my sight options; the current leaf + bead isn't bad (better than a basic bead only), but I could see myself utilizing the AK-style sidemount (or the Dog Leg (http://texasweaponsystems.com/)) to put on a red dot for skeet/hunting, and also figuring out a way to mount a fiber bead in the front.
* Get a barrel clamp and light for HD, remove at the skeet range.

Lessons learned:

* DO NOT RUSH THE FINISHING ON THE WOOD.
* Getting a wood other than walnut will shave weeks off the project since it will only take a few coats of oil to get the job done, no pores to fill in!
* Do not get the checkered grip on the wood if you plan to oil finish it.
* Get the "sporter" HG, pistol grip, and buttstock for the best combination of ergos.
* If you don't like the wood, stick with a sporter style/length HG, a PG and BS combo anyways, for ergos.
* Bottom cut sling swivel if using the sporter HG, side sling swivel with the Dinzag retainer.
* Get the recoil pad, countersink the screws (or do a custom Limbsaver pad).
* POLYCHOKE, not Norwegian Death Metal Breacher Brake up front.
* Get the axis pin retaining plate
* Get a BHO pre-modified for the conversion (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-368/Saiga-12-BHO-Bolt/Detail)
* MD Arms V-Plug.
* Pauly's "Glass Bolt" is worth every penny... looks incredible, cycles like Lance Armstrong, and he does a trigger polish too which feels silky smooth.
* Give Ironwood some leeway on delivery time, my first order I hounded him a bit, my second order I knew to cool my jets.
* Do the mounting for the stock RIGHT as I've described (no one else seems to have done this, from what I can tell...).
* Either be prepared to refinish the receiver, have a bit that stands out (I hear Aluma Hyde from Brownell's is the better choice than engine enamel, by the way) and just refinish a small part of it, or expect to pay a pro to Duracoat (or equivalent).
* The Saiga 12, despite being beloved by the mall ninja/zombie cowboy crowd, happens to make an outstanding HD firearm with a pile of options, and can definitely be pressed into service throwing slugs or birdshot at targets and most likely deer and ducks.
* It handles like a champ.
* Reloading the S12, even when accounting for the AK "rock 'n lock" mags and the hassle of trying to load on closed bolt or pulling it open still beats trying to reload a 12 gauge tube mag.
* I hear that the ATF still has an interest in these, if you want one, prices are currently low ($550) so now might be a good time to buy.
* I would love to do another one with the maple furniture and just a coat of light poly on it.
* If you don't care about looks, get a set of cheap Tapco or Intrafuse furniture from K-Var, mount stuff on the rails as-needed, and call it a day.
* Carolina Shooter Supply is an AWESOME place to shop from, and sets a standard for customer service in an industry that disappoints me often.

I will GLADLY answer any questions, and if anyone is my area, I'd love to assist with a build for fun.

J.Ja

jmjames
02-01-2012, 03:00 AM
Pictures of the final product (as it currently stands) - yes, I know that the trigger lock is in the wrong place, I was adjusting it when I took the pics:

537

538

539

540

jmjames
02-01-2012, 03:01 AM
The greenish stuff in the action is just some lube, it's not a trick of the lighting.

J.Ja

Al T.
02-01-2012, 09:58 AM
Great write up! You are so NOT helping me quit scheming to get one! :D

I was impressed with that puppy.

RoyGBiv
02-01-2012, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the time you spent doing this detailed writeup. And also for sharing the "lessons" learned.
All of the "don't rush" advice carries over to any project (not just firearms).

Beautiful result.

JDM
02-01-2012, 10:48 AM
Good write up!

jmjames
02-01-2012, 11:23 AM
Thanks guys! Happy to contribute some content back to the P-F.com community.

Al, whenever you're ready to do it, you've got my number... :cool:

The worst part apart this project, is that it went so well, I ended up sinking money into a PSL/FPK instead of a better high powered rifle. One day I'll give the world insight into my attempts to fashion an adjustable length-of-pull system for that AK-style wood stock. It probably would have worked if I had a drill press. Once I get one, I'll be putting my design out there, so AK and variants can finally have a stock that fits different shooters and provides a good cheek weld for optics.

J.Ja

Super J
03-30-2012, 06:22 AM
Great write up

jmjames
03-31-2012, 12:03 PM
Thanks, glad you like it! There will be more in the next few weeks, I replaced the gas plug with a more adjustable one, I just got a rail on it (you know you bought a Russian-made gun part, when its "packaging" is a scrap of greasy brown paper) and if the guy who said he was going to buy my 1911 actually does so, I'll be putting an Aimpoint H1 on it and zero that for either 25 or 50 yards with slugs. I also picked up some Federal LE #00 to pattern with it. So my next trip to the range will be fun, and leave me a bit beat up... :) I may also pick up a 20 round drum for it while I am at it.

J.Ja

LHS
03-31-2012, 02:14 PM
So my next trip to the range will be fun, and leave me a bit beat up... :)


Push-pull is your friend :) It will prevent you from getting beat up by the shotty.

jmjames
03-31-2012, 07:02 PM
Push-pull is your friend :) It will prevent you from getting beat up by the shotty.

I'll look into that, thanks! My current technique is best described as "brace for impact"... just tighten up and lean into it. I'd love to take a good shotgun course, but they seem to be pretty uncommon, unless I want to pay for skeet instruction.

J.Ja

LHS
03-31-2012, 07:20 PM
I'll look into that, thanks! My current technique is best described as "brace for impact"... just tighten up and lean into it. I'd love to take a good shotgun course, but they seem to be pretty uncommon, unless I want to pay for skeet instruction.

J.Ja

Push-pull really works. After about 600 rounds of mixed bird, buck and slugs over a two day class, my shoulder felt no pain.

That said, I like what you've done with the shotty. I've been seriously looking into a Saiga, but the spotty QC and the myriad aftermarket accessories mean I have to do a lot of research to avoid blowing a ton of money on it. Threads like these are priceless :)

jmjames
04-01-2012, 10:44 AM
That said, I like what you've done with the shotty. I've been seriously looking into a Saiga, but the spotty QC and the myriad aftermarket accessories mean I have to do a lot of research to avoid blowing a ton of money on it. Threads like these are priceless :)

I know exactly what you mean about doing the research first on these. I spent a lot of time looking into it as well before I made the buy.

In terms of the QC issues, here is what I know:

* Gas ports are not consistent. Some have a bunch of smaller ones, some have a few larger ones, both combinations work fine. Where you get in trouble are the "vodka specials" with only one or two small ports. This can be remedied, of course, but it's a major hassle.

* The paint on the receivers is just awful. It's worse that they paint the receiver after assembly, so when you do the pistol grip conversion, there's a bare patch where the old one was. For a home defense gun, I wouldn't care. My next one, I'd seriously consider getting it parkerized instead of DuraCoat'ed, it would probably be a lot cheaper.

* The quality of the pistol grip conversion can be bad, depending on who does it. I didn't look deep enough to be able to pick out anyone as being particularly "bad" or "good", but for what people seem to charge for this, it makes no sense to not do it yourself. Other than dealing with the bolt hold open (and you can get that done and over with by using a Krebs safety with the notch in it anyways, that will be a bit easier to manipulate to boot), it is a VERY quick job, 15 - 30 minutes. Why pay someone to possibly do a bad job with that? I see folks charging a $250 premium to ship one already converted, the parts are $100. I'm not paying $300/hour for labor.

* It's a Russian-made AK at the end of the day. Some folks hail that as the be-all-and-end-all of AK manufacture. I don't. I'll say that I'll take a Russian AK over an Egyptian Maadi or a Romanian WASR and whatever the Bulgarians call their AKs. Russian-made stuff has always impressed me not for its durability per se or its fine engineering, but the fact that it was engineers so that the design can overcome the deficiencies at the factory. The rail I just got in is a testament to that. It clamps onto the AK side mount, and just provides an 11 or 13 slot rail on top and 5 or 7 slot rail on the side. It was *0.4 pounds*. That's mighty heavy, but it's because it's built like the fate of the world depends on it. If it were US-made, it would use a much more expensive, lighter, stronger metal and work just as well, be four times as expensive, and weight half as much.

Hope that helps!

J.Ja

jmjames
04-01-2012, 11:07 AM
If I were building a pure home defense/trunk gun/etc. Saiga 12, I'd do the following. This will let you save a lot of money on the things your don't need (DuraCoat and wood stocks), letting you spend money on the things you do need (lights and RDS).

This would give me a setup that I'd trust for any kind of home defense scenario or personal defense scenario where a long arm could be brought into play and a shotgun makes sense, up to about 100 yards depending on your load.

* Pistol grip conversion using the trigger parts kit I mentioned before. Don't bother with DuraCoat or repainting the receiver, or just get some primer on there as a rust block. Do a trigger polish yourself if you want it to be a bit more refined.

* Polymer pistol grip and NATO-length, fixed polymer stock.

* Metal tri-rail setup with a light at 9 o'clock (or the switch to one) and a vertical grip, rail on the side mount with an Aimpoint H1 on top... or use a quad rail and put the H1 in a scout position.

* 2 SGM 12 round stick mags jungle clipped, or 1 MD Arms 20 round drum with a clear backcover.

* Omit the bolt hold open, or replace the safety with the Krebs safety with the bolt hold open notch; BHO isn't needed in the HD role and there's no need to risk doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.

* Extended mag release.

* Basic improved cylinder choke if you can find one (best choke for slugs... if you aren't going to throw 'em, I'd get something tighter), the PolyChoke if you can't.

* Limbsaver pad on the stock.

* Oversized charging handle.

* Federal LE full power #00 or #1 buck (preferred), and slugs (I think Doc likes the Federal LE slugs too, but I'm not 100% sure)

Things I would not spend time/money on:

* Gas plugs - anything you are shooting in HD scenarios will cycle it just fine, with the possible exception of reduced recoil loads.

* The "glass bolt" service. Looks great and refines the action and helps cycle bird shot, none of which is important for HD.

* The wood furniture. Looks great, but it cuts your rail options quite a bit, and it's way too spendy for this use. I think it's heavier than the polymer too.

* DuraCoat.

* Night sights, ghost rings, etc. The Aimpoint will do it better.

* Side folder stocks. You're firing full-power shotgun loads, I think that aiming and muzzle/recoil control are a lot more important than saving 12" of overall length. If space is a major concern (CQB, storage), instead of the NATO-length AK stock, get the adapter and use an M4 stock.

J.Ja

LHS
04-01-2012, 03:20 PM
What's involved in doing the conversion? Do you have to cut metal at all? I unfortunately do not have access to any kind of metal shop, but I'm handy enough with hand tools and can borrow a dremel if need be (though the thought of grinding away on a gun scares me in my wallet).

The setup I'd eventually like is an 8" or 10" SBS, with basic ghost-ring-style sights, a short stock with recoil pad (folding would be nice, but not mandatory), and IC choke. I don't need a ton of 3-gun cool-guy gear, I just want a short, handy little shotgun that can reliably deliver both HD loads (I want to get my hands on some of that new Federal #1 buck, I love their LE132-00) and birdshot for training/practice.


If I were building a pure home defense/trunk gun/etc. Saiga 12, I'd do the following. This will let you save a lot of money on the things your don't need (DuraCoat and wood stocks), letting you spend money on the things you do need (lights and RDS).

This would give me a setup that I'd trust for any kind of home defense scenario or personal defense scenario where a long arm could be brought into play and a shotgun makes sense, up to about 100 yards depending on your load.

* Pistol grip conversion using the trigger parts kit I mentioned before. Don't bother with DuraCoat or repainting the receiver, or just get some primer on there as a rust block. Do a trigger polish yourself if you want it to be a bit more refined.

* Polymer pistol grip and NATO-length, fixed polymer stock.

* Metal tri-rail setup with a light at 9 o'clock (or the switch to one) and a vertical grip, rail on the side mount with an Aimpoint H1 on top... or use a quad rail and put the H1 in a scout position.

* 2 SGM 12 round stick mags jungle clipped, or 1 MD Arms 20 round drum with a clear backcover.

* Omit the bolt hold open, or replace the safety with the Krebs safety with the bolt hold open notch; BHO isn't needed in the HD role and there's no need to risk doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.

* Extended mag release.

* Basic improved cylinder choke if you can find one (best choke for slugs... if you aren't going to throw 'em, I'd get something tighter), the PolyChoke if you can't.

* Limbsaver pad on the stock.

* Oversized charging handle.

* Federal LE full power #00 or #1 buck (preferred), and slugs (I think Doc likes the Federal LE slugs too, but I'm not 100% sure)

Things I would not spend time/money on:

* Gas plugs - anything you are shooting in HD scenarios will cycle it just fine, with the possible exception of reduced recoil loads.

* The "glass bolt" service. Looks great and refines the action and helps cycle bird shot, none of which is important for HD.

* The wood furniture. Looks great, but it cuts your rail options quite a bit, and it's way too spendy for this use. I think it's heavier than the polymer too.

* DuraCoat.

* Night sights, ghost rings, etc. The Aimpoint will do it better.

* Side folder stocks. You're firing full-power shotgun loads, I think that aiming and muzzle/recoil control are a lot more important than saving 12" of overall length. If space is a major concern (CQB, storage), instead of the NATO-length AK stock, get the adapter and use an M4 stock.

J.Ja

jmjames
04-01-2012, 11:23 PM
What's involved in doing the conversion? Do you have to cut metal at all? I unfortunately do not have access to any kind of metal shop, but I'm handy enough with hand tools and can borrow a dremel if need be (though the thought of grinding away on a gun scares me in my wallet).

The setup I'd eventually like is an 8" or 10" SBS, with basic ghost-ring-style sights, a short stock with recoil pad (folding would be nice, but not mandatory), and IC choke. I don't need a ton of 3-gun cool-guy gear, I just want a short, handy little shotgun that can reliably deliver both HD loads (I want to get my hands on some of that new Federal #1 buck, I love their LE132-00) and birdshot for training/practice.

The conversion is easy, no metal cutting required though you will need to drill a few rivets out. Get a good bit for when you do that, or start with a small bit then work your way up. It's really not much more work than removing the trigger assembly, then putting the new trigger assembly in the right place. A couple of notes on it...

* If you want the bolt hold open, you will need to grind/cut a notch in it for the safety to pass through. Alternatively, Carolina Shooters Supply (who is EXCELLENT to deal with) sells pre-cut BHO's for $15. That will save you a ton of headache. For me, I had to re-do the install a zillion times because the notch wasn't the right size/shape and I had to keep making it bigger.

* Using the "shepherd's crook" spring to hold stuff in place is a hassle, spend the $7 or $8 on the axis pin retaining plate and it's a snap to get it all back together again.

* Don't forget to order the pistol grip screw, and you may also need to get the nut for it too, depending on if the trigger guard you get (some have the nut built-in).

Going for the SBS is possible. Depending on how short you go, you may need to get a shortened piston (machine shop or gunsmith can install that for you) and shorten the gas tube and perhaps relocate the gas block. I'm not 100% sure how that would go, but I know that the folks selling SBSs built on Saigas (like Tromix) are asking a pretty big dollar amount for them.

Re: ghost rings... the choices aren't great. There's the Kreb's set (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-272/Krebs-Saiga-12-Custom/Detail) for $99. It's a barrel clamp design for the front, and no tritium. It uses an AR front post, so you can get a fiber front post, a colored plastic one, or a tritium one (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=24976/Product/AR-15-M16-HIGH-VISIBILITY-ROUND-TOP-TRITIUM-DOT-FRONT-POST-SIGHT $60). The only other choice is the Tromix tritium HK style ghost ring (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-595/XS-Night-Sight-HK/Detail $120), which I *think* requires welding for the rear sight. Whatever you do, do NOT mount a rail or sights to the dust cover, you might as well not have them since the dust cover is loose. Unfortunately, the "Texas Dog Leg" mount doesn't fit the Saiga 12, because it mounts on the rear leaf sight and the Saiga 12 doesn't have the rear leaf sight.

If you put sights on, you have 3 approaches for the rear: weld to the gas tube/receiver/etc., mount on a rail, or install in the leaf sight's dovetail. The Krebs ghost ring kit uses the dovetail, it is the most "no modifications needed" choice out there.

Your options for getting a rail on the top of a Saiga 12 are:

* Something that clamps onto the side mount - I just got one from Kalinka Optics (http://kalinkaoptics.com/mounts/ak-vepr-saiga-romak-1-2-slr/original-bp-02-ak-saiga-vepr-low-profile-centered-side-mount-to-weaver-rail-w-black-finish.html $52) and it is excellent.

* The Ultimak rails that mount on top of the gas tube using the rear sight dovetail to hold a nut and the front sight bead's hole (or a new one tapped in the gas block), Carolina Shooters Supply has two models for $99 each, depending on how your gun is set up.

* A quad rail handgaurd; some of the tri-rails have an optional 4th rail. The quad rail may very well cover the leaf spring area or block you from installing a sight there, so if the sight you want uses it but you still want the rails (and you will for HD, for a vertical foregrip and a light), get the tri-rail.

If you want to also shoot birdshot, you'll possibly end up having to get a new gas plug, but it all depends on how yours does. It's luck of the draw if it functions well with the bulk pack stuff (depending mostly on how many gas ports you get and their size), though the higher velocity birdshot (1200+ FPS like Winchester AA Sporting Clays, Remington Express Long Range, and Remington Nitro - my favorite) cycles them pretty fine with the factory gas plug... but they are 50% more expensive ($7.50/box vs. $5/box) so the $20 gas plug looks like a bargain after one trip to the range. :)

So... the config that I'd recommend for you would be:

* Krebs ghost rings - $99
* Tritium AR front post - $60
* Tri-rail - $100 (you can get a cheap polymer HG/rail for half this price)
* Vertical foregrip (optional)
* Light (optional)
* Gas plug (as needed) - $20
* Trigger kit - $60
* Polymer pistol grip - $10
* Pistol grip screw - $5
* Folding Warsaw-length stock ("Warsaw length" is shorter than "NATO length", because Eastern Europeans are a bit shorter and wear lots of thick winter clothes for much of the year) or adapter + M4 stock; to save money, just use the fixed Warsaw length polymer AK stock at first, if you need to - $20
* Axis pin retaining plate - $8
* Pre-modified BHO or Krebs Safety with notch (optional... you don't need the BHO for HD at all, it's really only useful for the skeet range where they require open breech all the time)... it's not a "last round bolt hold open" which would actually be useful for HD...
* Oversized charging handle (optional)
* 2 12 round SGM stick mags or 1 20 round MD Arms drum (clear or smoke cover to check round count) - the Pro Mags have a bad reputation, both for sticks and drums - $80 - $100 total

Prices are off the top of my head...

So you'd be looking at $462 plus the purchase price of the gun (roughly $550 from Classic Arms, last I checked), after S/H you are looking at around $1,020 - $1,050 if you do the work yourself. The work is less than an hour from start to finish even if you've never done it before, it's a quick project. Expensive? Not in comparison to a lot of decent S/A shotguns on the market (Benelli, Beretta). Compared to the typical S/A HD shotgun out there (Mossberg 590, Remington 1187, etc.), yes. Compared to the typical P/A HD shotgun? Very much so. But to make it a fair comparison, it's not too much more than a decent pistol, especially if you cut a few corners (omit the ghost rings, fixed stock, polymer rails). Just doing the conversion to PG will set you back about $100 total, put down $100 more for magazines/drums, and you are looking at under $800 for a reliable (though unrefined) S/A shotgun with amazing capacity.

But... what you get are two things. First, you get the proven AK action. There's a reason why you don't see many S/A shotguns in the HD/LE roles, and it boils down to "trust issues". Imagine if the world of pistol were such that the only semi auto pistols people would trust their lives to were HKs and $3,000 1911s, and everyone else was packing a revolver? That's the world of shotguns. Sad, eh?

The other advantage to the S12 is the magazine. You can store the gun and ammo separately for safety, but be ready with a quick rock 'n lock and bolt charge. You can reload in a fraction of the time compared to any other shotgun, even though they tend to not like being loaded on a closed bolt depending on mag design unless you download by one round. Best of all, for the HD role, the 20 round drum is simply unbeatable. The only limitation with the drum is that you must use 2 3/4" shells (no 3" shells). No big deal... I've fired 3" Super X magnum #00 buck and 3" magnum slugs through mine, and I'd much rather have 2 3/4" shells with a bit lower recoil to let me put follow up shots on target faster. I know the "how many rounds onboard" topic is hot... having 2 - 3 times as many rounds available without a reload (and a reload in a fraction of the speed) is a game changer. I hope that I *never* see a situation in which 20 rounds of #00, #1, or 1 oz slugs is needed, but if I ever encounter that scenario, I'd prefer to have the S12 and a drum than a duck gun and a box of shells in my pocket.

J.Ja

LHS
04-02-2012, 03:19 AM
Cool, thanks for the info. I've assisted on some AK builds before, and I've got a good grasp of the parts available for the rifle-caliber Kalashnikovs (you are 100% correct about the retaining plate vs. the shepherd's crook wire, that thing is a godsend if you're removing the FCG), I just wasn't sure what all went into converting the Saiga shotguns. I'll check out the local dealers and see if any have a Saiga for a reasonable price, then start getting some basic mods for it. I figure the trigger/pistol grip conversion parts and a Warsaw-length buttstock should be fine to start. I can work on rails and sights later. And yeah, I love me some Warsaw length on an AK. The 'NATO' length is way too long for me, especially on a shotgun. I run my ARs with the stock one or two notches out from collapsed, so the AK always felt fine to me in terms of length of pull.

It may never supplant my beloved 870s, but I like the notion of a mag-fed SBS, and having commonality with my rifle-caliber AKs seems like a good way to consolidate manual of arms. If those Turkish AR-pattern shotguns turn out to be decent, I may get one of those as well. I hear Krebs is doing some interesting things with them.


The conversion is easy, no metal cutting required though you will need to drill a few rivets out. Get a good bit for when you do that, or start with a small bit then work your way up. It's really not much more work than removing the trigger assembly, then putting the new trigger assembly in the right place. A couple of notes on it...

* If you want the bolt hold open, you will need to grind/cut a notch in it for the safety to pass through. Alternatively, Carolina Shooters Supply (who is EXCELLENT to deal with) sells pre-cut BHO's for $15. That will save you a ton of headache. For me, I had to re-do the install a zillion times because the notch wasn't the right size/shape and I had to keep making it bigger.

* Using the "shepherd's crook" spring to hold stuff in place is a hassle, spend the $7 or $8 on the axis pin retaining plate and it's a snap to get it all back together again.

* Don't forget to order the pistol grip screw, and you may also need to get the nut for it too, depending on if the trigger guard you get (some have the nut built-in).

Going for the SBS is possible. Depending on how short you go, you may need to get a shortened piston (machine shop or gunsmith can install that for you) and shorten the gas tube and perhaps relocate the gas block. I'm not 100% sure how that would go, but I know that the folks selling SBSs built on Saigas (like Tromix) are asking a pretty big dollar amount for them.

Re: ghost rings... the choices aren't great. There's the Kreb's set (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-272/Krebs-Saiga-12-Custom/Detail) for $99. It's a barrel clamp design for the front, and no tritium. It uses an AR front post, so you can get a fiber front post, a colored plastic one, or a tritium one (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=24976/Product/AR-15-M16-HIGH-VISIBILITY-ROUND-TOP-TRITIUM-DOT-FRONT-POST-SIGHT $60). The only other choice is the Tromix tritium HK style ghost ring (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-595/XS-Night-Sight-HK/Detail $120), which I *think* requires welding for the rear sight. Whatever you do, do NOT mount a rail or sights to the dust cover, you might as well not have them since the dust cover is loose. Unfortunately, the "Texas Dog Leg" mount doesn't fit the Saiga 12, because it mounts on the rear leaf sight and the Saiga 12 doesn't have the rear leaf sight.

If you put sights on, you have 3 approaches for the rear: weld to the gas tube/receiver/etc., mount on a rail, or install in the leaf sight's dovetail. The Krebs ghost ring kit uses the dovetail, it is the most "no modifications needed" choice out there.

Your options for getting a rail on the top of a Saiga 12 are:

* Something that clamps onto the side mount - I just got one from Kalinka Optics (http://kalinkaoptics.com/mounts/ak-vepr-saiga-romak-1-2-slr/original-bp-02-ak-saiga-vepr-low-profile-centered-side-mount-to-weaver-rail-w-black-finish.html $52) and it is excellent.

* The Ultimak rails that mount on top of the gas tube using the rear sight dovetail to hold a nut and the front sight bead's hole (or a new one tapped in the gas block), Carolina Shooters Supply has two models for $99 each, depending on how your gun is set up.

* A quad rail handgaurd; some of the tri-rails have an optional 4th rail. The quad rail may very well cover the leaf spring area or block you from installing a sight there, so if the sight you want uses it but you still want the rails (and you will for HD, for a vertical foregrip and a light), get the tri-rail.

If you want to also shoot birdshot, you'll possibly end up having to get a new gas plug, but it all depends on how yours does. It's luck of the draw if it functions well with the bulk pack stuff (depending mostly on how many gas ports you get and their size), though the higher velocity birdshot (1200+ FPS like Winchester AA Sporting Clays, Remington Express Long Range, and Remington Nitro - my favorite) cycles them pretty fine with the factory gas plug... but they are 50% more expensive ($7.50/box vs. $5/box) so the $20 gas plug looks like a bargain after one trip to the range. :)

So... the config that I'd recommend for you would be:

* Krebs ghost rings - $99
* Tritium AR front post - $60
* Tri-rail - $100 (you can get a cheap polymer HG/rail for half this price)
* Vertical foregrip (optional)
* Light (optional)
* Gas plug (as needed) - $20
* Trigger kit - $60
* Polymer pistol grip - $10
* Pistol grip screw - $5
* Folding Warsaw-length stock ("Warsaw length" is shorter than "NATO length", because Eastern Europeans are a bit shorter and wear lots of thick winter clothes for much of the year) or adapter + M4 stock; to save money, just use the fixed Warsaw length polymer AK stock at first, if you need to - $20
* Axis pin retaining plate - $8
* Pre-modified BHO or Krebs Safety with notch (optional... you don't need the BHO for HD at all, it's really only useful for the skeet range where they require open breech all the time)... it's not a "last round bolt hold open" which would actually be useful for HD...
* Oversized charging handle (optional)
* 2 12 round SGM stick mags or 1 20 round MD Arms drum (clear or smoke cover to check round count) - the Pro Mags have a bad reputation, both for sticks and drums - $80 - $100 total

Prices are off the top of my head...

So you'd be looking at $462 plus the purchase price of the gun (roughly $550 from Classic Arms, last I checked), after S/H you are looking at around $1,020 - $1,050 if you do the work yourself. The work is less than an hour from start to finish even if you've never done it before, it's a quick project. Expensive? Not in comparison to a lot of decent S/A shotguns on the market (Benelli, Beretta). Compared to the typical S/A HD shotgun out there (Mossberg 590, Remington 1187, etc.), yes. Compared to the typical P/A HD shotgun? Very much so. But to make it a fair comparison, it's not too much more than a decent pistol, especially if you cut a few corners (omit the ghost rings, fixed stock, polymer rails). Just doing the conversion to PG will set you back about $100 total, put down $100 more for magazines/drums, and you are looking at under $800 for a reliable (though unrefined) S/A shotgun with amazing capacity.

But... what you get are two things. First, you get the proven AK action. There's a reason why you don't see many S/A shotguns in the HD/LE roles, and it boils down to "trust issues". Imagine if the world of pistol were such that the only semi auto pistols people would trust their lives to were HKs and $3,000 1911s, and everyone else was packing a revolver? That's the world of shotguns. Sad, eh?

The other advantage to the S12 is the magazine. You can store the gun and ammo separately for safety, but be ready with a quick rock 'n lock and bolt charge. You can reload in a fraction of the time compared to any other shotgun, even though they tend to not like being loaded on a closed bolt depending on mag design unless you download by one round. Best of all, for the HD role, the 20 round drum is simply unbeatable. The only limitation with the drum is that you must use 2 3/4" shells (no 3" shells). No big deal... I've fired 3" Super X magnum #00 buck and 3" magnum slugs through mine, and I'd much rather have 2 3/4" shells with a bit lower recoil to let me put follow up shots on target faster. I know the "how many rounds onboard" topic is hot... having 2 - 3 times as many rounds available without a reload (and a reload in a fraction of the speed) is a game changer. I hope that I *never* see a situation in which 20 rounds of #00, #1, or 1 oz slugs is needed, but if I ever encounter that scenario, I'd prefer to have the S12 and a drum than a duck gun and a box of shells in my pocket.

J.Ja

JAD
04-02-2012, 11:08 AM
Push-pull is your friend :) It will prevent you from getting beat up by the shotty.

Hope this isn't too much of a thread split, but can I ask who taught you push pull? I learnt it from Rob Haught in the nineties. I do love it.

Al T.
04-03-2012, 10:11 AM
I'm not LHS, but I was introduced to it in the mid '80's for running a sub-machine gun.

LHS
04-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Hope this isn't too much of a thread split, but can I ask who taught you push pull? I learnt it from Rob Haught in the nineties. I do love it.

I learned it from him as well, in the early 90s. I've used it on everything from shotguns to a .500 Nitro Express double. Works like a charm.

jmjames
05-05-2012, 10:45 PM
I made the following changes since the last update, and finally got to take it to the range.

* Aimpoint H1 sitting on a Kalinka Optics low rail (http://kalinkaoptics.com/mounts/ak-vepr-saiga-romak-1-2-slr/original-bp-02-ak-saiga-vepr-low-profile-centered-side-mount-to-weaver-rail-w-black-finish.html).
* MD Arms "V-plug" gas valve (http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-654/MD-ARMS-SAIGA-V-dsh-PLUG/Detail) to replace the "Gunfixers" valve.
* Removed the recoil buffer.
* Streamlight TLR-1s in a UTG barrel clamp mount (UTG? What what? http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Universal-Paintball-Single-Rail-Picatinny/dp/B001WJ4GCG/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1336274242&sr=8-7).

On the Aimpoint:

The cheek weld was about as good as it is going to get trying to use an optic on a standard AK-style stock. I could probably get the optic down another 3 - 5 mm if I opted for an Ultimak gas tube rail and mounted it in a scout position.

It took about 5 - 7 rounds to get what I'd consider a "zero". Rounds used were Remington Long Range Express 1 oz 2 3/4" slugs. Not a stellar load, but certainly a "good enough" round for the purpose of a zero. Zero was done from a benchrest. I felt... funny... zeroing a shotgun on a benchrest. 50 yard zero, improved cyl. choke.

Once zero was done, I put a few rounds out to 100 yards, I think that the point of impact was well within the expected group sizes given the low quality of the load.

Result: As happy as a clam. The mount is rock solid, but then again, what would I expect from a Russian-made 1/2 lb. mount holding a 4 oz. optic? It came wrapped in the famous "brown paper covered in wax/grease", and the only "instructions" were a scrap of paper in Russian, so I knew it was authentic... :D

Additional testing:

Next, I ran 5 rounds of Federal LE #00 buck, still at imp. cyl. choke. Very nice pattern, and the Aimpoint was super quick to point and aim as expected. I was able to land some of the Federal LE #00 at *100 yards* on an 18" paper, again, at imp. cyl. choke. I can't wait to get my hands on some the #1 buck. I had to put the gas valve up a couple of notches, the #00 wasn't cycling well enough to eject (but well enough to cock the hammer) on the lowest setting that I was using for slugs. I'd show the targets, but they had a lot of other holes in them at roughly the same size and place.

Then I put through 15 rounds of #8 birdshot at "hey, is that a fully auto shotgun?" speeds. I left the gas valve on the setting used for the #00. No problems at all.

The optic mount actually has a side rail, and with a small riser, the TLR-1s could fit there. I chose the barrel clamp instead, despite not looking too nice, because the ergonomics were better for flipping it on/off in my tests. I had two big concerns with it. First, would the recoil have the light's switch smash my support hand? Secondly, would the UTG mount shift around? Pleased to report positive results on both. The recoil is tamed quite a bit with the new plug, and the placement was just fine, and the UTG clamp works just fine.

Conclusions:

Something that I was really loving on this range trip, was the extremely reduced recoil. I only brought 2 boxes of slugs because they are usually no fun to shoot, but with the new gas valve, I can get it turned down a lot lower. I would actually enjoy doing target shooting with this combination! The Federal LE #00 and #8 birdshot were very manageable. The Aimpoint is astounding. In terms of the aiming itself, I would feel very confident taking a hunting or defensive shot at 100 yards, and I would be willing to pull the trigger out to 150, provided I thought the slug could hit with appreciable power at that range. I kind of regret getting the side rail mount instead of the Ultimak gas tube mount, mainly for looks, but also for versatility (I could hang the light off that fairly easily, for example), but I'm not exactly running out to change it either. This optic setup is just dandy. I also sort of wish I had gotten a 4 MOA dot, but if I ever move it to a carbine I'd want the 2 MOA anyways, and the 2 MOA is perfectly fine as well. I do not like the "bikini" covers for the Aimpoint, and there are no flip ups at this time.

Next steps:

I can't wait to get some Federal LE #1 buck; I had the chance to snag some a few weeks ago, but I waited 'till payday and missed my chance. I also want to get some of the new Federal LE slugs through it. I'm not sure if I should be getting a 20 round drum or a pair of 12 round magazines for HD use. The drum makes it pretty bulky to store, but the 12 round stick mags are pretty long. It's a shame that the Mossburg "Loc Box" uses a key instead of an electronic loc, otherwise it would be a winner for storage. If I go the 12 rounder route, I'd download them by 1 to ensure easy loading on a closed bolt.

J.Ja

Al T.
05-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Then I put through 15 rounds of #8 birdshot at "hey, is that a fully auto shotgun?" speeds.

Close approximation of what he looked like shooting that fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rfapTL4YNDM


:D

jmjames
05-06-2012, 12:15 PM
Close approximation of what he looked like shooting that fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rfapTL4YNDM


:D

LOL, about right, except it was a tad easier for me to hoist it up... :D

J.Ja