Problem Diagnosed.... Now how to fix it?

[JFK]

So I have been struggling on a plateau for the last couple of months. My speed and accuracy is improving but is very inconstant. I have been breaking 7 seconds on the FAST however I can not do it on demand yet. My problem at speed seems to be my second shot after a reload.

It is clear to me that I am having trigger control problems at speed. This was reenforced today after shooting this weeks Drill of the Week. (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2949-DotW-18-Draws-amp-Reloads) Every time I missed it was low right. (I'm left handed) All of the misses were the second shot after the reload.

Good news is I was able to call the missed shots. Bad news is I feel stuck. I have been dry firing, working on my press out after the reload but have not seen any improvement over the last month - month and a half.

Suggestions or new drills to try are appreciated.

[Ptrlcop]

25yd bullseye/ball and dummy drills. Particularly SHO because your off hand wont mask small errors in trigger control. When I really committed to SHO bullseye shooting it improved every aspect of my shooting. If you can get where you can put 5rds inside the 8ring on a B8 in 20sec (10 is better) you will pretty much be able to go crazy on the trigger up close.

[LOKNLOD]

On the 2nd shot after a quickly done reload, are you sure it's trigger control, and not related to getting a good grip reestablished after the reload?
When I work on the reload and pressout dry, I find it easy to fall into the trap of getting a grip good enough for dry but not good enough for a rapid string with a live weapon.

[jthhapkido]

On the 2nd shot after a quickly done reload, are you sure it's trigger control, and not related to getting a good grip reestablished after the reload?
When I work on the reload and pressout dry, I find it easy to fall into the trap of getting a grip good enough for dry but not good enough for a rapid string with a live weapon.

Exactly. And it doesn't normally show up on the first shot because the trigger pull on that first one isn't a big deal---but the recoil from the first shot plus the 2nd trigger pull then makes the second shot much further off.

You might try (live fire) starting at the reload: slowly performing the reload, making sure your grip is correct, then from the end of the reload position, quickly putting the sights on the target and firing three rounds. (So, slow through the reload and re-grip, then back to full speed for sight alignment and firing.) How the three shots impact relative to each other will probably tell you a lot.

Also---video yourself trying it, and take a look at the recoil impulse on the gun. Is it recoiling in the same direction for every shot?

You are missing the second, but not the third shot? Is there usually a significantly longer split before the third shot, compared to the previous one? On video, can you see yourself adjusting your grip slightly?

[JFK]

On the 2nd shot after a quickly done reload, are you sure it's trigger control, and not related to getting a good grip reestablished after the reload?
When I work on the reload and pressout dry, I find it easy to fall into the trap of getting a grip good enough for dry but not good enough for a rapid string with a live weapon.

This is a good possibility.

[JFK]

Thanks for the input. I will try the slow reload next session and see if it is my grip.

[JFK]

Today I tried some distance shooting SHO and also deliberate slow reloads. My 25yrd accuracy is not as good as I would like. I can only see the center of the target at that distance, and the front sight covers the x - 8 ring. I would love to know how to improve distance accuracy.

It does seem that my grip needs a little attention, however the problem is defiantly my anticipation and poor trigger control. Today was an improvement so it looks like ball and dummy drills for a while.

I also tried the deliberate slow reload. This was a good thing for me to analyze every part of the reload. At the end of my session I was fumbling much less at speed and cut an average of .25 off a full speed reload.

I think I will do this again for the next range session and do everything with a press out and no time pressure. When I go back to speed I think I will double the distances I usually work at to force me to slow down and focus on form and fundamentals.

Another tip a fellow shooter of mine suggested was to talk to yourself and teach yourself as if it was the first time you were shooting a gun. This did help me focus on practice not results. It helped.

[GJM]

Not trying to be a wise guy, but are you shooting an LEM trigger?

[JFK]

Not trying to be a wise guy, but are you shooting an LEM trigger?

Yes I am. I have been for the last two months. I moved from a M&P.

[GJM]

I love HK pistols, have a bunch of them with LEM triggers, shot them for multiple years, took a P30 to RSS last April, but am completely convinced they are substantially more difficult to shoot than a M&P or Glock. I really struggled at RSS last April, significantly underperforming my ability, switched to an M&P, returned to Rogers six months later, shot about 35 points higher on the daily school drill, and finished first in the class.

Just yesterday afternoon, I shot my P30 some, and while initial press outs are fine, realized how hard it is to shoot fast and one handed with the LEM. For giggles, I then grabbed a G19, which I hardly ever shoot, and it felt like cheating compared to the P30.

I do realize that TLG got good results with his P30 and HK45, but I believe that in the high percentage of cases, the same shooter will always shoot better with a M&P or Glock than with a LEM trigger.

[Ptrlcop]

[QUOTE=JFK;50019]Today I tried some distance shooting SHO and also deliberate slow reloads. My 25yrd accuracy is not as good as I would like. I can only see the center of the target at that distance, and the front sight covers the x - 8 ring. I would love to know how to improve distance accuracy.
QUOTE]

@25yds the black on a B8 target should be roughly the width of your front sight. Do you have any vision problems? Was it more your groups or shot placement you were not happy with? One thing I found helpfull was to focus on something very specific on my front sight rather than the sight itself, I focus on the very top of the outline around the tritium, I also try to see the serrations.

As far as the trigger press itself, I like to picture the mechanical operation of the trigger (the trigger bar pulling back on the striker, the connector pulling the trigger bar down, and the striker releasing). For some reason this really helps me work the trigger with the precision we are talking about.

Also, when I was really hitting the accuacy stuff hard I found that some days I just didnt have the attention span required. I would suggest that you try to avoid strict round counts in your range sessions dont try to power through a rough day, bad reps dont help anything. If I can only get 30 rounds off before I loose it then I just pack it up and leave. Other days I may get closer to 300. In general I find that I am only good for about 200rounds of bullseye before my concentration runs away.

[JFK]

[QUOTE=JFK;50019]Today I tried some distance shooting SHO and also deliberate slow reloads. My 25yrd accuracy is not as good as I would like. I can only see the center of the target at that distance, and the front sight covers the x - 8 ring. I would love to know how to improve distance accuracy.
QUOTE]

@25yds the black on a B8 target should be roughly the width of your front sight. Do you have any vision problems? Was it more your groups or shot placement you were not happy with? One thing I found helpfull was to focus on something very specific on my front sight rather than the sight itself, I focus on the very top of the outline around the tritium, I also try to see the serrations.

As far as the trigger press itself, I like to picture the mechanical operation of the trigger (the trigger bar pulling back on the striker, the connector pulling the trigger bar down, and the striker releasing). For some reason this really helps me work the trigger with the precision we are talking about.

Also, when I was really hitting the accuacy stuff hard I found that some days I just didnt have the attention span required. I would suggest that you try to avoid strict round counts in your range sessions dont try to power through a rough day, bad reps dont help anything. If I can only get 30 rounds off before I loose it then I just pack it up and leave. Other days I may get closer to 300. In general I find that I am only good for about 200rounds of bullseye before my concentration runs away.

Groups are pretty bad. I do have some distance blurriness with my vision, but it is not bad enough to warrant glasses yet. On a side note, I hate the sights on the HK. Blacking out the rear helped, but I am used to seeing a bit of daylight on the sides of my front sight. I will try your suggestion about using one piece of the sight next time. It may take me a week or so because I am back at work and will not be home till next week. Thanks for your suggestions.