Appendix Draw - Flagged Thumb; Beavertail Backstrap

[Larry T]

Guys, I'm debating my draw stroke regarding thumb position. I've been getting my thumb between the body and gun without any real problem and then flagging my thumb after the draw when mating with the support hand. I know many like to keep the thumb flagged during the draw by placing the thumb over the slide backplate or a little inside of that position.

With the large beavertail on a Glock 17, keeping my thumb flagged during the draw puts my thumb sitting on the beavertail and makes it hard to get the webbing of my hand high and tight under the tang. After clearing the holster, I start moving my thumb to the right to spoon with my other thumb - hoping the webbing of my strong hand snaps into place under the tang. I believe it would work better without the beavertail but I'm used to it being there.

Also, when drawing a smaller gun like the Glock 26, keeping my thumb flagged on the beavertail really doesn't feel secure because there's not a lot of grip to get a hold of.

So, is the concensus to work on the draw with flagged thumb or drive the thumb between the body and gun and get a full grip before drawing? Thanks for the input.

[Clusterfrack]

I think I use a hybrid approach. Here’s a screen cap from a recent session. Gun is a P-07.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/0a230e44e2bf4f11d43a60b56065a76e.jpg

[HopetonBrown]

I had not heard of placing thumb on rear of slide while clearing the holster before.

[Clusterfrack]

I had not heard of placing thumb on rear of slide while clearing the holster before.

Yeah, me neither. I make a Y with my thumb and index finger, and keep my fingers half curled, then WHAP into the gun from the top and side, and snatch it out.

[Mr_White]

Guys, I'm debating my draw stroke regarding thumb position. I've been getting my thumb between the body and gun without any real problem and then flagging my thumb after the draw when mating with the support hand. I know many like to keep the thumb flagged during the draw by placing the thumb over the slide backplate or a little inside of that position.

With the large beavertail on a Glock 17, keeping my thumb flagged during the draw puts my thumb sitting on the beavertail and makes it hard to get the webbing of my hand high and tight under the tang. After clearing the holster, I start moving my thumb to the right to spoon with my other thumb - hoping the webbing of my strong hand snaps into place under the tang. I believe it would work better without the beavertail but I'm used to it being there.

Also, when drawing a smaller gun like the Glock 26, keeping my thumb flagged on the beavertail really doesn't feel secure because there's not a lot of grip to get a hold of.

So, is the concensus to work on the draw with flagged thumb or drive the thumb between the body and gun and get a full grip before drawing? Thanks for the input.

I'm not sure whether you are going to find a consensus. I think it approximately breaks down into two camps.

One, get palm on backstrap, then dive thumb between gun and body, wrap fingers around front strap, lift and continue the draw.

Two, slam hand onto grip simultaneously getting palm on backstrap and fingers on front strap, let the thumb land on the back/inside of the slide (not yet positioned where the gun can be fired) - as the gun is lifted, that thumb falls onto the correct side of the gun before the gun even clears the holster.

I do the second one myself. There are two main places I think a lot of people can get a lot more efficient in their draw - getting master grip at the beginning, and getting the gun aimed and stopped at the end. I think it takes time to dive the thumb in between the gun and body, and time to wrap the fingers onto the front strap after initial contact with the gun.

You can see the second method pretty clearly in the draws in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rc7s-z7RBw

[Larry T]

I'm not sure whether you are going to find a consensus. I think it approximately breaks down into two camps.

One, get palm on backstrap, then dive thumb between gun and body, wrap fingers around front strap, lift and continue the draw.

Two, slam hand onto grip simultaneously getting palm on backstrap and fingers on front strap, let the thumb land on the back/inside of the slide (not yet positioned where the gun can be fired) - as the gun is lifted, that thumb falls onto the correct side of the gun before the gun even clears the holster.

I do the second one myself. There are two main places I think a lot of people can get a lot more efficient in their draw - getting master grip at the beginning, and getting the gun aimed and stopped at the end. I think it takes time to dive the thumb in between the gun and body, and time to wrap the fingers onto the front strap after initial contact with the gun.

You can see the second method pretty clearly in the draws in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rc7s-z7RBw

What's your opinion of the beavertail backstrap? I definitely want the large (4mm) backstrap (Gen4 G17 and G26) but I'm not sure if I actually need or want the beavertail version. My reasoning is that the beavertail protects against slide bite and some say the beavertail provides a bit of leverage, helping recoil and getting a faster 2nd shot sight picture. I want the additional grip girth and distance to trigger but I'm not sure about the beavertail. I find the beavertail gets in the way of the flagged thumb draw. What's your thought?

[Mr_White]

What's your opinion of the beavertail backstrap? I definitely want the large (4mm) backstrap (Gen4 G17 and G26) but I'm not sure if I actually need or want the beavertail version. My reasoning is that the beavertail protects against slide bite and some say the beavertail provides a bit of leverage, helping recoil and getting a faster 2nd shot sight picture. I want the additional grip girth and distance to trigger but I'm not sure about the beavertail. I find the beavertail gets in the way of the flagged thumb draw. What's your thought?

If you get slide bite without the beavertail, then I would use it. If you don't, I would skip it. It's a necessity for slide bite, but I think it can complicate getting the master grip quickly.

[SouthNarc]

Gabe it looks like that your thumb actually falls to the left side of the slide either right before the gun actually starts to move or just simultaneous with your upward lift. Is that accurate? I see a ton of people who have a thumb capped slide on a striker fired gun even as high in the presentation as the transition point between the vertical and horizontal line of presentation. Personally speaking I think that's just not as secure.

[Mr_White]

Gabe it looks like that your thumb actually falls to the left side of the slide either right before the gun actually starts to move or just simultaneous with your upward lift. Is that accurate? I see a ton of people who have a thumb capped slide on a striker fired gun even as high in the presentation as the transition point between the vertical and horizontal line of presentation. Personally speaking I think that's just not as secure.

Yep, I think that's correct about when my thumb moves to the left side (based largely on the video I posted above since self-perception is often inaccurate.) I think I'm treading the line as it is, and wouldn't want the thumb over there much later than that. The essential element I'm looking for is for the thumb to be on the correct side of the gun by the time it has cleared the holster. I wouldn't want it on the back of the slide at the 2 or 3, that's for sure.

[Clusterfrack]

That’s what I was trying to explain when I said my draw is a hybrid. I also find that it’s possible to adjust the grip a bit if I miss the ideal position.

[Sal Picante]

I run a Beretta with a moderate beaver tail. Developing the "non-claw the shit out of my stomach grip" is a priority for me.

I find that it is a "touch point", more-so than an "anchor point". You're thumb dwells on the "hammer" or wrapped over the beavertail for just a split second before it folds down between the body and gun during the draw.

See the video here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4408-Les-Journal&p=703115&viewfull=1#post703115

This is def. good for a solid .25s.

[Prdator]

Les,
Run a sleeveless compression under shirt makes the draw surer and keeps the hair right where it should be!! Also its just comfortable to wear.

[Larry T]

I appreciate the posts. I train using Mike Seeklander's draw style. He clears the cover garment with his shooting hand instead of support hand as he explains in the video below. It also looks like though he doesn't drive his thumb deep to establish his grip, he also doesn't flag it very high either. It looks like it's at about "thumb safety" level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbD9Iy4xh3U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbD9Iy4xh3U

[Surf]

I would consider Mike's draw as a "drive the thumb" method and not a hybrid, or flagged as some here are describing.

I used to move two hands simultaneously gripping the shirt with the primary hand and then pinning the shirt with the support hand and then drawing the pistol, but that was less efficient.

There is merit for maintaining only one draw type, or consistency with movement, but that also does not mean that multiple ways of doing something are necessarily wrong either. Meaning that if I have two hands available, the support hand clears the cover shirt while the primary hand goes to the pistol. If I only have one hand, well then I draw with one hand using the same technique as in the Mike S. video. So I use two very distinctive methods.

When drawing with two hands, I have a "flagged thumb." Not on the back of the slide, but I do not "drive" my thumb. When drawing with one hand, I "drive" the thumb due to the shirt issue and my shooting grip is different when it comes to one-handed shooting. In other words, when the two hands were available I use what I consider to be a more effective method. Also when it comes to two hands I tend to "snatch" the pistol from the holster. When re-holstering, I have my thumb on the back of the slide.

I am not saying that what currently works for me, will necessarily translate well to others. I also reserve the right to evolve. This video shows my current method and what I have been doing for awhile. Very obvious thumb and hand position when the video slows down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeylWyP02Jo

[Mr_White]

if I have two hands available, the support hand clears the cover shirt while the primary hand goes to the pistol. If I only have one hand, well then I draw with one hand using the same technique as in the Mike S. video. So I use two very distinctive methods.

That sounds like what I do too.

[Clusterfrack]

Mine is similar to Surf's, but I'm driving my hand down into the beavertail from maybe 30 deg so the web sinks in.

[Prdator]

Here is an example of my draw stroke from sweats. I spend a bunch of time teaching this in my AIWB and essential handgun skills classes.

I've change a few things about it. That can make a huge difference that most folks get wrong.
https://youtu.be/lg624w5PHAI

[Sal Picante]

Les,
Run a sleeveless compression under shirt makes the draw surer and keeps the hair right where it should be!! Also its just comfortable to wear.

I just shaved... For you. ;)

[Prdator]

I just shaved... For you. ;)

I have the oil...... we can go fast..

[Nimitz87]

this is an awesome thread and I kind of do what Mr White does, I noticed I couldn't secure my grip as consistently when trying to jam my thumb between my body and gun, I can also tuck the grip in more with this kind of draw and not be hampered by it.

[Mr_White]

this is an awesome thread and I kind of do what Mr White does, I noticed I couldn't secure my grip as consistently when trying to jam my thumb between my body and gun, I can also tuck the grip in more with this kind of draw and not be hampered by it.

I think you hit on an important point there. I get master grip the way I do, I think largely because of how tightly the gun is held to my body. There is a lot more room to get the thumb between the gun and body with an OWB holster.

[Nimitz87]

I think you hit on an important point there. I get master grip the way I do, I think largely because of how tightly the gun is held to my body. There is a lot more room to get the thumb between the gun and body with an OWB holster.

you use the Spencers keeper still correct? It's pretty similar to the JM AIWB I use with the wedge so that makes a ton of sense. I'm able to conceal a big ole pistol because of how tightly the grip is pushed into the body. I'm just a lowly noob and been watching many a youtube video on draw, and grip. I couldn't get the thumb in between the body to work, because there just isn't the space with how tight the gun is pressed in. Once I modified my draw it has allowed me to get much stronger master grip each time.

[Mr_White]

Yep Nimitz87, totally agree with what you say there, and I am still using the Keepers.

[03RN]

I go for a full grip and try not to flub it.
I think this is the best video I have of my draw.

https://youtu.be/5VKgEwAY1Y8

I've definitely pulled some hair if I don't wear a wife beater. I also lift in wife beaters and have nice grease stains right there where I carry. My wife hates them;)