Missed it by that much... is it you or the gun. POA-POI.

[Prdator]

So I've seen a reoccurring problem in the handgun shooting world here as of late and it kinda surprises me.
had a conversation with a well known shooter trainer about how they had been struggling with shooting "right" lately. The problem went away when they moved to a new gun... only to find that the old one had sights that were not aliened right and that it just shot to the right due to the sights. Then wile teaching and AIWB skills and Essential handgun skills class in Houston TX this year I was shooting my new Centurion Tactical from Wilson and found the gun shoots about 2'' left at 10 yards, I also had a student using the Excellent Langdon Tactical PX4 compact carry he was killing it the first day and then on the second day he was consistently shooting high. I thought he had been raising the front sight out of the rear sight notch and that was what was causing it, he asked me to shoot the gun again as I had shot it the day before and sure enough It was shooting high... the student had switched ammo that day and had never shot it in the gun before.

So where am I going with this you ask... well made sure the ammo you are shooting does in Fact shoot point of aim point of impact in your gun.!!! The questing is asked all the time.. what ammo should I carry in my gun, well good self-defense ammo of course... and here it comes... the But. make sure that it shoots point of aim point of impact and that if groups good out of your gun. point in case is my 92's vs my PX4CC, the 92's LOVE the 124gr HST wile the PX4CC loves the 124 gold dot. yes it would be nice if they both shot the same ammo the fact is they don't and I'm okay with that.

So check you point of aim and point of impact of the ammo you plan to carry and train with. If you are not sure have someone else shoot the gun that you know is a good shooter or shoot it from a bench/rest to help you be more accurate. Also check your sights to make sure they are aliened... yes sometimes it is bad trigger control that causes you to consistently shoot off target... but it can also be the sights just like on my Cen Tac. so get out there and check you guns and ammo guys!!

[rjohnson4405]

Been fighting this for a long time. I was taught that it's not the sights it's you from the beginning of my training journey. And I now know that's not the case but I still fight adjusting sights. Especially Glocks.

If I can shoot a 10 round, 4" centered group at 25 yards with my rear sight drifted a little right then it's probably the sights.

Obviously, most shooters aren't checking much less capable of 25 yard accuracy but I would sure love the guns to come with a 25yd test target and what ammo they used to achieve it. Sights should be better regulated from the factory.

[BN]

23279

Here's a target I shot a while ago showing different POI for different ammo.

[spinmove_]

Zeroing your pistol is most definitely a thing. I wish more people understood that and actually did it. Sadly unregulated pistol sights from the factory using random 115gr garbage ammo at 7 yards is about what most people do at the range.

I used to have a problem shooting left very consistently. Then I discovered that my grip index was off. I was shooting less left, but still left. Then I discovered that nudging that rear sight ever so slightly to the right put me right on point. So in my case it was both, but its still great to know the capabilities of yourself and your equipment.

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[Gio]

I'm OCD about the POI/POA relationship on all of my pistols.

My service/carry pistols are all sighted in perfectly for a 50% above/50% below the top of the front sight blade at 25 yds with our duty ammo (Speer G2).

My USPSA pistols are sighted in the same way with my 145gr minor PF loads in production or 180gr major PF .40 loads in limited. When I tried some 135gr bullets from the same mfg, it shifted the POI 5" over the 145gr at the same power factor.

If I don't call several shots left/right but I'm seeing the impact there, the first thing I'll check is the tightness of the front sight (if it's twisted it will negatively affect windage) followed by whether or not the rear is still centered.

[CCT125US]

I think another over looked factor is variations in POI while shooting indoors vs out. As discussed elsewhere, the sun tends to pull groups.

[RevolverRob]

This is one argument to be made for more robust adjustable sights.

While, I'd love my guns to shoot identically regardless of ammo - they don't. And sometimes, I cannot get the ammo I want to shoot. Being able to adjust the sights to zero a gun to a new/different shooting load is ideal. Afterall, it's precisely what we do with optics and adjustable rifle sights. Why do we accept "good 'nuff" for handguns?

The only reasonable argument I can see being made for "good 'nuff" is that robust, duty-grade, adjustable sights are not common. The best set I'm aware of, that are widely available, are the Novak's and those are actually relatively new (out less than 5-years) - are there other robust adjustable sights out there?

[spinmove_]

This is one argument to be made for more robust adjustable sights.

While, I'd love my guns to shoot identically regardless of ammo - they don't. And sometimes, I cannot get the ammo I want to shoot. Being able to adjust the sights to zero a gun to a new/different shooting load is ideal. Afterall, it's precisely what we do with optics and adjustable rifle sights. Why do we accept "good 'nuff" for handguns?

The only reasonable argument I can see being made for "good 'nuff" is that robust, duty-grade, adjustable sights are not common. The best set I'm aware of, that are widely available, are the Novak's and those are actually relatively new (out less than 5-years) - are there other robust adjustable sights out there?

I’ve been told more than a couple times that LPA and Dawson adjustable sights are generally robust. I’ve got a set of the Dawson Adjustable sights on my G17.2, so we’ll see how well they hold up.


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[HopetonBrown]

Sights should be better regulated from the factory.

What pistols are you shooting with oem sights?

[rjohnson4405]

What pistols are you shooting with oem sights?

My Sig 225A1 had decent factory steel tritium sights. As did my HK45C but both needed small adjustments for me. I waited until I shot them for thousands of rounds before moving them.

My Glock I marked where the factory sights were and put my Heine's there. Not exact but probably should have been close.

[LSP552]

My Wilson 92 BT shoots loves 124+P Gold Dots........and my 92C the 147 HST. Both are POA/POI with their respective load. I wish they were the same but overall, it hasn’t been worth my while to change the rear sight on the Compact.

I would change sights on any pistol that didn’t shoot one of these loads to POA/POI.

[spinmove_]

What pistols are you shooting with oem sights?

Most pistols come with half-way decent metal sights. I don’t really think there’s any good reason why they can’t have properly regulated sights.


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[HopetonBrown]

Most pistols come with half-way decent metal sights. I don’t really think there’s any good reason why they can’t have properly regulated sights.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingyIt's expensive for them to do when frankly most people don't care and those that do are changing to aftermarket.

My PPQ came with a pretty test target, and adjustable plastic sights that were replaced with Dawson's by my first range trip.

[spinmove_]

It's expensive for them to do when frankly most people don't care and those that do are changing to aftermarket.

My PPQ came with a pretty test target, and adjustable plastic sights that were replaced with Dawson's by my first range trip.

They’re already test firing the guns, why not just make adjustments based on that to regulate?


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[BN]

Most pistols come with half-way decent metal sights. I don’t really think there’s any good reason why they can’t have properly regulated sights.

But with which ammo? :)

[spinmove_]

But with which ammo? :)

I’m sure the ink from a pen or printer that goes to document the test target can also include that information without too much additional cost.


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[Gio]

Why do we accept "good 'nuff" for handguns?

I think most shooters can't tell the difference between "good 'nuff" and perfect. Inside 10 yds, it really doesn't matter anyway, so the shooter has to be at a certain skill level to see the difference at the 15-25yd range for it to matter.

[rjohnson4405]

Thinking about it more, if the average user sees a 2.5" at 25 yard target and can't "get the gun to do it" they may send it in.

Most people have no idea what guns are capable of. So maybe it's a way for the companies to avoid calls from the masses.

[shiv]

As said above the sun is definitely a thing. I began having a ton of problems after I moved. I’m not the best pistol shooter around, but I start and end each session with ten rounds at 25 yards free-style...thanks to Steve Fisher. I usually shoot about a six inch group within 10 seconds when I’m tuned in...with my goal all rounds in the black/8 ring. Sometimes I do better.

After I moved, my groups started to suffer and I started shooting low and left with the same gear. Couldn’t figure it out. Shot at the old range again and everything was back to normal. Then it hit me. The new range faces south west and the old range faces northeast. Shooting with the sun low in the sky to my right and in my vision made me shoot low left. Go back there to the new range early morning and my impacts go where they should.

I must admit, I have had times it WAS the sights and I’d have a friend who is an accomplished shooter verify. That’s why I like Dawson and their perfect impact policy. Though, I wish they would use a better finish. Seems I either have to oil the sights (and make them shine) or let them rust.


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[HopetonBrown]

I’m not the best pistol shooter around, but I start and end each session with ten rounds at 25 yards free-style...thanks to Steve Fisher. I usually shoot about a six inch group within 10 seconds when I’m tuned in...with my goal all rounds in the black/8 ring. Sometimes I do better.


If you're shooting 80 and above Vickers Tests at 25 yards in 10 seconds you're shooting at a high level.

[RevolverRob]

They’re already test firing the guns, why not just make adjustments based on that to regulate?

I'm not sure that "test firing" is the same as checking accuracy, because I'm pretty sure they just fire them into clearing barrels/water tanks and pick up the brass and throw it in the envelope. I'm not even sure that guns are function tested beyond the two rounds they fire for that purpose, from most manufacturers. Otherwise, I can't envision how some guns end up on dealer shelves.

Some guns clearly are though, the Colt Special Combat Government, for instance gets fired 5-rounds at 15-yards and includes the test target. But Series 70 Colt Repros don't include a test target and near as I can tell are not test fired for accuracy.


I think most shooters can't tell the difference between "good 'nuff" and perfect. Inside 10 yds, it really doesn't matter anyway, so the shooter has to be at a certain skill level to see the difference at the 15-25yd range for it to matter.

This is a valid point. Given the atrocity that is most average pistol shooting (at least based on the sampling of what I've seen on various ranges), most people can't tell if the sights are properly regulated, because they can't shoot smaller than 8" groups at 10 yards.


If you're shooting 80 and above Vickers Tests at 25 yards in 10 seconds you're shooting at a high level.

I agree. I've said before that my standard for a gun being accurate enough to carry, is me consistently scoring 80+ on this test. This how I know I recently got in over my head with the trigger push/pistol squirm issue with my P30s. Between the last two range trips, I went from 82 average to -> 65 average. :( That's an abysmal drop off in accuracy and it ain't the gun, because it hasn't changed...

[shiv]

Yeah usually it’s me the limiting factory and my inability to see the sights! I do not so well with most night sights. I’m digging the new Ameriglo on my Gen 5, and of course I do best with my RMR.


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[Backspin]

In regards to who shoots OEM sights....most cops do. Most LE agencies do not allow modification of sights.

We recently received new Sig P226’s. A good chunk of them shot slightly left with 147 grain 9mm. For those officers who could maintain a half decent group I pushed the sights over to center their shots.

I heard Sig simply uses a machine to center the sights in the dovetails.

I recommend, if possible, to use practice and duty ammo of the same weight. Seems to help mitigate poa/poi disparity. A couple of LE agencies in my area found out the hard way Gen4 Glock 17s have a 4-5” lateral poi shift between 115 practice and 147 duty.

[shiv]

If you're shooting 80 and above Vickers Tests at 25 yards in 10 seconds you're shooting at a high level.

Just got back from the range running this drill several times today. A couple times I think the timer picked up another lane and I got times 12-14s. When I was the only shooter I ranged 7.90-10.95.

I shot both my RDS-equipped 19 and a stock Gen 5 17. With my RDS my best score was a 91, 4x in 9.60. With the 17 I managed a 90, 1x in 8.85. Worst of the day was a 71, 0x in 7.90 with the G17, trying to push too hard. I believe my average was 83 between the two guns. I’m not sure on time because the timer wasn’t set sensitively enough. I feel better about my shooting since you mentioned the Vickers standard, but I still get humbled by my buddy shooting long-slide STIs slow fire.


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[GJM]

Although they are called “fixed sights,” they are still adjustable.

[BehindBlueI's]

They’re already test firing the guns, why not just make adjustments based on that to regulate?


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Money. Time and labor, which is also money.

[spinmove_]

Money. Time and labor, which is also money.

Doesn’t HK regulate their pistol’s sights before shipping them?


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[GJM]

Doesn’t HK regulate their pistol’s sights before shipping them?


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No, based on the majority of pistols I have received in recent years.

[spinmove_]

No, based on the majority of pistols I have received in recent years.

Fair enough. I thought I’d read somewhere that they did.

It’s a shame more people don’t realize that pistols as well as rifles need to be zeroed.


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[GJM]

FIFY



It’s a shame more people don’t shoot well enough at 25 yards so that they can actually zero their pistols.


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[spinmove_]

FIFY

Somewhat guilty of that myself. I’m still only averaging high 80s shooting 10 rounds @ 25 yds with a B8 target.


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[revchuck38]

I think most shooters can't tell the difference between "good 'nuff" and perfect. Inside 10 yds, it really doesn't matter anyway, so the shooter has to be at a certain skill level to see the difference at the 15-25yd range for it to matter.

I disagree. I played around a couple of weeks ago with different bullet weights in my 4" S&W M13-2, which hits to POA with 158 grain ammo in both .38 and .357. Both 125 grain Winchester PDX HPs in .38 and Speer .357 135 grain SBGDs hit about 5" low at ten yards. That's enough to matter.

OTOH, standard weight HSTs (9x19 - 124, 40 - 180, 45 - 230) hit right to POA in my autoloaders once they were adjusted for windage.

[Gio]

I disagree. I played around a couple of weeks ago with different bullet weights in my 4" S&W M13-2, which hits to POA with 158 grain ammo in both .38 and .357. Both 125 grain Winchester PDX HPs in .38 and Speer .357 135 grain SBGDs hit about 5" low at ten yards. That's enough to matter.

OTOH, standard weight HSTs (9x19 - 124, 40 - 180, 45 - 230) hit right to POA in my autoloaders once they were adjusted for windage.

I agree with you, I should have put my statement in better context. A 5" difference at 10 yards is massive and unacceptable.

[03RN]

I will check my guns poi at 25 yards with carry ammo and change out sights from those groups. I will also see what my training ammo is doing but unless it's way off I won't change anything.

The Rhode Island CCW qualifier is 30 RDS at 25 yards on an Army L (b-22) target so friends and I shoot it as a competition for ourselves. My best group sizes are around 12" which is hardly world class but it does give me a good enough group to center.
This was shot with my beretta m9a1 compact frame/vertec slide with Wilson sights. Their front night sight and their .300 rear battle sight. Shot with Winchester NATO.
23706

This was done with my Springfield Loaded with a fusion rear ledge sight that is higher than stock but I don't remember the number. Shot with gold dots. Both targets inside 4 minutes and I think the top target was inside 2 minutes. I used a 30rd magazine:cool:
23707

[M2CattleCo]

This is why I buy ammo by the case, and generally cases of the same lot if I can get it. I generally buy ammo once or twice a year and get 5-7K at a time.

[Randy Harris]

Most pistols come with half-way decent metal sights. I don’t really think there’s any good reason why they can’t have properly regulated sights.


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Regulated for who and for what ammo?

I'll try to keep this short ..... different people have different sized hands and hand geometry. So they interface with the gun slightly differently. Different ammo (especially different bullet weights) hit at different POA/POI . I had a student come to class several years ago who had SOLID mechanics and was consistently shooting a 1 hole group at 5 yards.... but it was about an inch and a half to the left. Not LOW and left...just left. I went over and looked at what he was doing watched him shoot a few rounds and he asked if I knew why he was consistently left. I asked if I could shoot a few and when I did they went in the same hole he was shooting. I told him at lunch we'd move his rear sight over a little and see if that fixes it. It did. He asked how I knew so quickly what the problem was. He said he had been to 7 different instructors (some VERY well known) and none of them had been able to diagnose the problem. I told him I knew what it was because I actually have the same issue. On single stack guns I need the sights pretty well centered up but with glocks I have to drift the rear sight a small amount to the right to get it the POI "centered" for me.

For ME , when I have the gun aligned with the web of my hand and bones in my arm glocks shoot a tiny bit to the left for me with typical 115 grain ball. Not low and left, just left. It is NOT an issue of me pushing the trigger left, not an issue of my index finger "bicep" pushing the gun left, nothing like that. It is apparently the way the frame in recoil reacts with my grip. Most people shooting a pie plate sized group at 5 yards would never even notice it....but since I windage zero them to be able to hit 1" pasters at 7 yards I do notice it.

So what about ammo? When I windage zero a pistol for 115 gr ball it will shoot anything faster than that a tiny bit to the right and anything slower and heavier to the left and HIGH. So if I then use 147 ball in that pistol I have a POI shift from POA of about 3-4 inches high and left at 15 yards. So if I plan to be able to make down 0 hits (IDPA) at 35 yards ( IDPA standards stages can have targets out to 35) then I really need to stick with 115 (or rezero it for 147 ) because 147 impact would be up in the right shoulder area or completely off the target.

When I zero carry guns for my typical carry ammo (CCI Gold Dot 124+p) then anything slower than that will go left and anything heavier will go high (and left since it will also be slower) . So I pretty much need to stick with that particular ammo if I expect to make shots on eyesocket sized targets at 10 yards...or snipe flies at 5 to 7 yards (some of you that will read this know what I'm talking about:cool:). If I take 147 ball and try to shoot it in my carry gun on anything small or at any distance I have to aim low and right to hit center.

And the type of sights does not seem to matter with regards to windage. Whether it is factory plastics, trijicons or whatever I have to move the rear sight if I expect to shoot POI to POA. For the last decade I've typically used Warren/Sevigny sights. Most are aware that they have 2 different front sight heights. Their website says one is for long slide guns (.245) and one is for regular length (.215) but in my experience it has more to do with bullet weight than slide length. My Gen 3 G34 needs a .215 for 115 gr or 124+p to be centered at 25 yards....the .245 puts them low on the target. My Gen4 G34 hits POA/POI for elevation at 25 with 147gr with a .245 front but needs a .215 for POA/POI with 115. My Gen 3 G17 with the .245 sight throws shots low but the .215 is centered at 25 yards. The last carry gun (Gen 4 G17) I zeroed with 124+P at 25 yards shot about 4 inches HIGH with the .215 height front. I had to put a .245 height front on it and it was dead center. BUT my other GEN 4 17 needed the .215 to center up elevation at 25 yards.....so was that last one just an anomaly? Probably. Point is you have to shoot the gun with the ammo you will be using.

So with regards to the initial conversation what does all this mean ? It means that the factory simply cannot predict bullet weight or how the end customer will grip the pistol . Even if they ransom rest it at the factory and tell you what ammo they shot it with does not mean that it will necessarily shoot that way for the end user....even if the end user is an excellent shooter. Each shooter will have to zero it for themselves and for their chosen ammo. It MIGHT even require a different height sight. Does it matter to "the majority of shooters"? Probably not since the majority of shooters can't shoot a 5" group at 5 yards. but if you want the gun to throw bullets where the sights are pointed we may need to refine the zero from what it was factory set at. Most times the factory just centers the sights and fires it for function.....

[Clusterfrack]

Yesterday I shot some 30 yd groups with a Shadow2, and was surprised to see my pattern shifted 6” right. After checking if my rear sight was loose (it wasn’t) I realized the sun was behind and to the right. That was blurring the right side of the notch and causing my right POI shift.

A harder rear sight focus fixed it.

[LSP552]

Yesterday I shot some 30 yd groups with a Shadow2, and was surprised to see my pattern shifted 6” right. After checking if my rear sight was loose (it wasn’t) I realized the sun was behind and to the right. That was blurring the right side of the notch and causing my right POI shift.

A harder rear sight focus fixed it.

My eyes have always been sensitive to light. When I was actively competing in PPC, I would have some pretty decent corrections for lighting, especially at the 50.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Decided to shoot a SW 19 in IDPA today. First stages, shot low till I figured it out. I hadn't shot the gun in a few years. On the last state, I put two rounds in the same hole on the farthest target. Obviously, that's my real ability level (haha!). The low shots - it's me not being used to the heavier trigger pull at first.

To humble us - some young man about 12, kept on running stages at zero down with a Glock 9mm. Sigh - youth.