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Exiledviking
01-24-2018, 04:43 PM
I'm in the process of getting my hands on a Ruger New Blackhawk Bisley 7.5" in .45 Colt. I'm primarily going to use it at an indoor range and hopefully once a month shoot the local bowling pin match with it.

I'd appreciate any recommendations for bullets and powder. I'm starting with some hand-me-down Titegroup and 250 gr flat-point plated bullets. Looks like coated bullets are very popular but it can be troublesome with Titegroup. I've been looking at some 300 grain bullets too as they might be good for shooting bowling pins.

Malamute
01-24-2018, 06:37 PM
I'm in the process of getting my hands on a Ruger New Blackhawk Bisley 7.5" in .45 Colt. I'm primarily going to use it at an indoor range and hopefully once a month shoot the local bowling pin match with it.

I'd appreciate any recommendations for bullets and powder. I'm starting with some hand-me-down Titegroup and 250 gr flat-point plated bullets. Looks like coated bullets are very popular but it can be troublesome with Titegroup. I've been looking at some 300 grain bullets too as they might be good for shooting bowling pins.


Ive mostly used 8.5 grs Unique with 250 gr bullets. It was supposed to be a factory equivalent load in older manuals (250 gr/860 fps), but ran 925 fps in my 4 5/8" Ruger. I tried I believe the same charge with 230 gr 45 auto bullets. They seemed ok when shooting them, but I was getting pretty crazy vertical stringing when shooting them at 200 yards, which indicates it was borderline consistent ignition. the point being, the case is large, and id suggest only using bulky powders for lighter loads, or just not loading down.

ive only shot pins a little with my 45 Colt, but the standard 250 gr bullets had no problem getting pins off the table. Id avoid the 300s unless you do have trouble, and focus on semi-wadcutter bullets to get a bite on the pins. The extra recoil of the 300s wont help follow up shots.

If you really want to shoot much in the way of lighter loads, you can get 45 Schofield cases.

Something I realized when seeing discussions about the modern way of holding pistols, the left finger on the front of the trigger guard isnt popular today, but, in single actions, and cocking with the left thumb, it changes the angle of your wrist and makes it easier to cock for repeat shots. Shooting follow up shots is not difficult with single actions once you get the rhythm of cycling the action two handed sorted out. FWIW, thumbs down, left thumb over right is whats been working for me on SAs

FPS
01-24-2018, 07:36 PM
My current load is a 250gr RNFP coated bullet from Missouri Bullet Company over 5.6 gr of Titegroup for 45 Colt. Has worked well but not shot pins, more of a cowboy load.

I have some 305 gr from Underwood in 44mag and they are quite a ride! Decided that much power was way overkill for my purposes. Of course you dont have to load as hot as Underwood, but I would think 250gr would get the job done, its a good size bullet.

Exiledviking
01-26-2018, 01:49 AM
My current load is a 250gr RNFP coated bullet from Missouri Bullet Company over 5.6 gr of Titegroup for 45 Colt. Has worked well but not shot pins, more of a cowboy load.

I'm looking at the 250 or 255 gr Missouri Bullet Hi-Tek coated bullets. Any issues with that coating and Titegroup?

The other bullet that appeals to me is the ACME Bullet Co. Hi-Tek coated 255 SWC.

I've read of quite differing experiences with coated bullets and Titegroup.

My friend who's graciously helping me get set up to reload told me that we should try Universal Clays for the .45 Colt with the coated bullets as it is a clean burning powder and very similar to Unique. He said he has a 4 lbs jug of it so we'll have plenty to experiment with.

SecondsCount
01-26-2018, 01:51 AM
I shoot Clays in mine with a 255 grain lead bullet. Very accurate.

FPS
01-26-2018, 02:39 AM
I'm looking at the 250 or 255 gr Missouri Bullet Hi-Tek coated bullets. Any issues with that coating and Titegroup?

The other bullet that appeals to me is the ACME Bullet Co. Hi-Tek coated 255 SWC.

I've read of quite differing experiences with coated bullets and Titegroup.

My friend who's graciously helping me get set up to reload told me that we should try Universal Clays for the .45 Colt with the coated bullets as it is a clean burning powder and very similar to Unique. He said he has a 4 lbs jug of it so we'll have plenty to experiment with.

I am not aware of any issues and havent noticed anything strange. Might as well start with another powder if its a concern. Lots of options that will work fine.

BN
01-26-2018, 08:39 AM
Sometimes, I am "That Guy".

When I saw indoors, I immediately thought that about 40 grains of 3F Black Powder would be about right. ;)

Malamute
01-26-2018, 12:01 PM
Clays Universal is a decent powder.

Regarding coated bullets and titegroup or any other aspect of coated bullets, id do some searching on the castboolit forum. About anything regarding lead bullets can be found there.

gringop
01-26-2018, 12:22 PM
My friend who's graciously helping me get set up to reload told me that we should try Universal Clays for the .45 Colt with the coated bullets as it is a clean burning powder and very similar to Unique. He said he has a 4 lbs jug of it so we'll have plenty to experiment with.

When I was shooting pin matches with my Smith 45Colt, my load was 8.5 gr. Universal Clays and a 250 gr. Rainier Flat Point. It made 823 fps out of the Smith and 1139 fps out of my 16" Win Trapper.

Gringop

fatdog
01-26-2018, 12:46 PM
I have had good luck with both Missouri bullet company and Georgia arms cast bullets, both 200gr and 250gr. For 45LC I use the rifle powder measure (throws Trail Boss more consistently) on my Dillon 650 and now load with Trail Boss. My powder weights are pretty much identical to how much Titegroup I have used in the past, but I believe there is something to the theory about it being fluffy and filling more of the case. I observed a small but noticeable improvement in group size when I went to Trail Boss.

I also prefer 35gr of real 3F and a full compressed seating depth, but it ain't polite at an indoor range....

That Guy
01-26-2018, 12:49 PM
Sometimes, I am "That Guy".

When I saw indoors, I immediately thought that about 40 grains of 3F Black Powder would be about right. ;)Well, I *do* agree that would be an awesome load to try, indoors... :) (Once.)

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

dragonmouse
01-26-2018, 11:25 PM
I'll jump on the 8.5 unique under a 250gr lswc. My lil 3.5in barrel uberti will do poa/poi with enough sight out to 25yds all day long. Don't have a chrony atm but it's the same load that an older 5.5 in off brand saa took several white tail does with a few years back. Bowling pins would be fun!

willie
01-27-2018, 08:20 PM
Red Dot shotgun powder has been a favorite for many decades when loading 250/255 grain cast bullets. 6 to 6.5 grains of Red Dot with the bullet weight given will keep you within SAAMI specs and produce accurate ammo. Don't waste money on 300 grain bullets for indoor shooting. Anyway, who needs the extra recoil?

Exiledviking
01-28-2018, 03:06 AM
I really appreciate all of your replies. Quite the brain trust we've got here! Gotta love this forum.

Can't wait to try out the Ruger .45 Colt. I think I'll keep the velocity around 800 to 850 FPS. Looks like that'll be plenty for bowling pins.

Anyone have an older version of Hornady's reloading manual? I have the 9th edition and using the powder charges listed for their 180 gr XTP .357 Magnum loads using VV N110, my 6 inch S&W 686 Plus is around 200 FPS slow compared to the velocity Hornady is listing. At 10.7 grains I got 716 FPS and with 10.9 gr it was 741 FPS. This was 10 rounds of each load. Hornady's velocities (around 930 to 960 FPS with those 2 loads) were recorded using an 8" Colt Python. I'd be curious to see if Hornady reduced the loads in the later manuals as I've read in some forums.

VV shows their starting load with N110 for a 180 Speer TMJ as being 12.7 grains for a velocity of 1253 FPS. That's WAY above the velocity I'm aiming for of 1000 FPS.

We also ran a Rainier plated 158 gr RN 357 Mag load with 5.4 grains of Titegroup thru the chrono at the same time and it came up around 250 FPS below where it should have been.

Is it possible to have a barrel that is that slow?

Hopefully this week or next I'll have another opportunity to use the chrono with some slightly heavier loads (11.1, 11.3, 11.4, and 11.5) of the VV N110 to see if puts me closer to the 1000 FPS goal. We are also going to shoot some of those N110 loads and the 158 Rainier/Titegroup load thru my friend's 6" S&W .357 Mag revolver to see if we find a big difference in velocities.

okie john
01-28-2018, 03:18 AM
Is it possible to have a barrel that is that slow?

The cylinder gap is the likely culprit.


Okie John

Exiledviking
01-28-2018, 11:55 AM
The cylinder gap is the likely culprit.


Okie JohnMy friend and I thought so too but we looked at it the day we ran the chrono. It looks pretty tight, probably somewhere around 0.003. I'll have to gauge with some feeler gauges.

Exiledviking
01-28-2018, 02:40 PM
Another friend who's an experienced reloader suggested that I might not have enough of a crimp on the bullet.
I'm going to have to read up on crimping.

With that heavy of a bullet should I be using a roll crimp?
And how do I determine if it's a hard enough crimp?

BN
01-28-2018, 03:22 PM
VV shows their starting load with N110 for a 180 Speer TMJ as being 12.7 grains for a velocity of 1253 FPS. That's WAY above the velocity I'm aiming for of 1000 FPS.

Looks like you are 2 grains below what VV recommends for a starting load. Maybe N110 isn't a good powder for reduced loads.

I often get less velocity than what is listed.

I have a Hornady #3, but VV powder hadn't been invented yet. ;)

Malamute
01-28-2018, 06:14 PM
Another friend who's an experienced reloader suggested that I might not have enough of a crimp on the bullet.
I'm going to have to read up on crimping.

With that heavy of a bullet should I be using a roll crimp?
And how do I determine if it's a hard enough crimp?

Yes, roll crimp.

Crimp it until the case starts to bulge out below the crimp, back off slightly, just about right. Many cast bullets have great, deep, tapered crimp grooves, perfect for heavy roll crimps.

The only revolver loads Ive taper crimped are 38 Short Colt, the dies I use are 9mm and dont have a roll crimp, otherwise they would have gotten a good heavy roll crimp.

willie
01-28-2018, 08:59 PM
In post no.18 above, Bill replied that maybe N110 is not good for reduced loads. Win 296 and H110(identical but different labels)have the same slow burning rate as does N110. Under no circumstances should should Win 296 or H110 be used in reduced loads. Safety is one reason.
Avoiding reduced loads with slow burning powders is a good safety practice. If there are exceptions, they escape me. I assume that N110 and the other 110s share similarities, but I'm out of date on the N version.

Exiledviking
01-29-2018, 02:31 AM
In post no.18 above, Bill replied that maybe N110 is not good for reduced loads. Win 296 and H110(identical but different labels)have the same slow burning rate as does N110. Under no circumstances should should Win 296 or H110 be used in reduced loads. Safety is one reason.
Avoiding reduced loads with slow burning powders is a good safety practice. If there are exceptions, they escape me. I assume that N110 and the other 110s share similarities, but I'm out of date on the N version.

I agree with you in regards to not reducing the loads below what's in the books. However, Hornady has the starting load for the VV N110 with the 180 XTP at 10.5 grains going up to 11.8.
Even at 10.9 it was around 200 FPS slower than Hornady's data. I am going to try 11.1, 11.3, and 11.4 to see if it comes alive. We are also going to run those loads thru his nearly identical S&W revolver. If the N110 does not get closer to 1000 FPS with the 11.3 grains we'll switch to Alliant 2400.

I'm learning a lot here and I thank you all for the help.
Once these 180 gr XTP bullets are gone I'll be switching to another bullet and powder that'll hopefully give me less problems.

Hambo
01-29-2018, 09:45 AM
I am going to try 11.1, 11.3, and 11.4 to see if it comes alive.

I looked at VV, Hornady 10th Edition, and Lyman's 50th Edition.

Interestingly, the Lyman data for 180gr is 10.8gr to 13.5gr (compressed). Velocity through a 4" test barrel is 814 and 999fps.

I think you're chasing your tail with 0.1gr increments. You didn't mention if you're using magnum primers or not. Is it cold where you live?

While the data are somewhat different, you're only playing with about 150fps from starting to max loads. If you're doing everything right and not getting published velocities you're not going to get there.

willie
01-29-2018, 10:08 AM
I'm not qualified to criticize Hornady's data but suggest that you review available online data to get an overview. When I read your posts, I thought that Hornady's maximum figure was low. But I've never used the N version of 110.

Keep your N110 but consider moving to 2400. I think that you'll have an easier time arriving at your goal. Later you can revisit use of the N110. My use of Win 296 was always full house. My practice was to reduce maximum published data by 10% as a starting point. As Hambo said, working up from the low number in .1 grain units is a chase your tail activity. The reason is the very slow burning rate. For heavy bullets like 180 grains in .357, the very slow 4227 powder by either maker is a forgiving powder. You'll run out of room in the before you can screw up. Accuracy would be excellent but with medium velocity level. But it does not run through a measure with the great precision that ball powder will. For me this fact is not a big deal.

Exiledviking
01-29-2018, 04:39 PM
I looked at VV, Hornady 10th Edition, and Lyman's 50th Edition.

Interestingly, the Lyman data for 180gr is 10.8gr to 13.5gr (compressed). Velocity through a 4" test barrel is 814 and 999fps.

I think you're chasing your tail with 0.1gr increments. You didn't mention if you're using magnum primers or not. Is it cold where you live?

While the data are somewhat different, you're only playing with about 150fps from starting to max loads. If you're doing everything right and not getting published velocities you're not going to get there.

I'm new to reloading so I believe it's prudent for me to cautiously approach the max listed by Hornady at 11.8 grains.

That Lyman data is exactly what I've been looking for; some data to corroborate VV's data. Thank you!
So, it appears that N110 is not the best powder I need for achieving the 950 to 1000 FPS I am aiming for.
I'm using magnum primers and the temperature was around 50 degrees F. when used the chrono.

We are going to try the 2400 next.

Once again all of the info you gentlemen are providing helps me a lot. Thank you.

BN
01-29-2018, 06:37 PM
I suggest you do some reading about slow, medium and fast powders. 2400 isn't ideal for reduced loads either. Something like Unique is an example of a medium powder that is good for reduced loads. Also, all reloading data is not created equal. Check several sources, including powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers and other online sources.

Malamute
01-29-2018, 06:47 PM
^^^ Indeed. 2400 is generally upper medium to magnum level powder, though its used some in medium level loads and reduced rifle loads with cast bullets (its technically a rifle powder).

Unique has a reputation for being dirty, but Ive found when used in medium power range and decent load density loads is relatively clean. Red Dot or similar may be better for lower end loads or loads not taking up much space in the case.

BN
01-29-2018, 07:18 PM
Lots of information here: http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp

Exiledviking
01-30-2018, 01:25 AM
I suggest you do some reading about slow, medium and fast powders. 2400 isn't ideal for reduced loads either. Something like Unique is an example of a medium powder that is good for reduced loads. Also, all reloading data is not created equal. Check several sources, including powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers and other online sources.


I thought I was doing the safe and sensible thing by using Hornady's listed powders for their 180 gr XTP bullet. I've attached a picture of the 9th edition of Hornady's book.
Most loads elsewhere I've found for a 180 grain bullet is for a different bullet.

I've read it's not a good idea to use loads for other bullets of the same weight? On Hodgdon's website they only show a Nosler Partition bullet in that weight. Is it safe to use their data for the Nosler 180 gr Partition bullet for the Hornady 180 gr XTP bullet?

I am not sure as to what you mean by reduced loads? Most of the loads listed in the Hornady book is putting the velocity I want close to the max loads of the different powders.

Looking at Alliant's website for Unique there isn't a load listed for a 180 grain bullet.

Handloads.com lists the 180 gr bullets but I don't see the XTP listed. Again, is it safe to use a load listed there for a different bullet manufacturer?

Again, I'm leaning but it's quite confusing at times. I really appreciate all of your information.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180130/f24610656be21725404c1f0447c483fa.jpg

Exiledviking
01-30-2018, 02:52 AM
I suggest you do some reading about slow, medium and fast powders. 2400 isn't ideal for reduced loads either. Something like Unique is an example of a medium powder that is good for reduced loads. Also, all reloading data is not created equal. Check several sources, including powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers and other online sources.

I've read the Sierra reloading manual, the Hornady manual, Accurate No. 2, and Patrick Sweeney's Reloading for Handgunners. Not a whole lot of info regarding slow, medium, or fast powders.

According to the Sierra manual, 5th edition, the Unique load of 6.6 grains is max and that puts the velocity at 1000 FPS for a 180 gr Sierra FPJ match bullet. Considering that I'm lookinh for a velocity somewhere between 950 and 1000 FPS isn't that too close to the max powder load for a beginner reloader?

Hambo
01-30-2018, 07:56 AM
I've read it's not a good idea to use loads for other bullets of the same weight? Again, is it safe to use a load listed there for a different bullet manufacturer?

When I started reloading thirty years ago nobody thought twice about using 158gr jacketed bullet data with all 158gr jacketed bullets. Companies do a lot more pressure testing than they used to and noticed that pressure isn't always the same with different bullets. Is it safe? You need to decide that.

Back to your 180gr .357 loads. If you look at the data in your pic, 1000-1100fps is the top end. All the powders fall in the same part of burn rate charts. What does that tell us? Engineers with pressure testing equipment determined that when using slow burning powders, 1000-1100fps is all you can get out of a .357 magnum with a 180gr bullet. Want more speed with less than the maximum charge? Drop to 158gr or use 170gr lead bullets. In the real world, a 180 at 950fps and a 158gr at 1200fps will both get the job done.

BN
01-30-2018, 08:19 AM
Sorry to cause confusion, but I feel your pain. Reloading is rewarding, but it can be frustrating at times. I remember trying to find a minor load for .38 Special in a 4" gun to use in IDPA matches. Nothing I tried would reach the minimum velocity I needed.

Slow powders are what is used in the loads for maximum velocity per bullet weight. They burn slower and and for a longer time in long barrels. For instance, 2400, N110, etc. Fast powders are such as Bullseye that burn faster and are for lower velocity target loads where less recoil is wanted. Medium powders are, well, medium. ;)

I noticed that your bullet has 2 crimp grooves. I'm guessing that they are to load to the same COL in both 38 Special and 357 magnum brass. If you are using 357 brass, then crimp in the groove nearest the bullet nose.

Just keep trying. It's a Long Way to the Top If You Wanna Rock N' Roll. :)

BN
01-30-2018, 09:44 AM
Here's a chart showing powder burning rates:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/burnrate.htm

Note that it includes rifle powders.

willie
01-30-2018, 11:13 AM
To the op I'm writing my opinion. 45 years ago the Speer manual current then had an article titled "Why Ballisticians Get Gray". With humor I can say that you immediately understand that title. Now, I'm going to ramble a bit but will make a valid point or two. First I'll address the powders that I've used in handguns. Some are Green Dot, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, Herco, H110, and Winchester 296. Did you know that these were designed for loading shotgun shells primarily? However, their burning rates permitted them to be used for reloading handgun calibers. H110 and Win 296 are identical powders made by Hodgdon. The popular 2400 powder is used in loading 410 shotgun shells as well as for loading heavy medium plus to heavy .357, .41, and .44 magnum ammo.

Several companies have produced at least a score of reloading manuals during the last 50 years. None has identical data for the same loads. In fact, the data change over time. They have become more conservative--probably because of liability. In addition, powder manufacturers have provided their own data. And then gun writers have published favorite loads. The dot powders mentioned above were first made by Hercules. Now another company Alliant makes them, and some say that their powders vary slightly from the old Hercules brand.

Handgun shooters can be served by three groups of powders: those in the fast, medium, and slow category. Right now you are working with a slow powder in a magnum case using a bullet that I consider to be heavy for its caliber. Note that I said heavy and not unsuitable. The best advice I can give is to set side the 180 grain bullets for later use and buy a box or two of 140-160 grain bullets. 158 grain is the grain weight most commonly seen in .38 spl/.357 mag data. With this grain weight you will find tons of data that will serve your purpose. You asked could a reloader use the same data for same weight bullets but of different brand. My answer is yes, but. The but part applies if the crimping grooves are in different positions causing one to be seated deeper than the other. Another but is that one may have a longer bearing surface than the other--meaning that one bullet has greater resistance(friction)to overcome. I would. You can if you are aware of certain factors.

Consider using 158 grain bullets. I promise that things will get easier. And this is from a man who once blew up a nice revolver.

Exiledviking
02-03-2018, 02:09 AM
Thank you gentlemen for being patient, providing great knowledge, and pointing me towards more information. Plus some good laughs.
I got a chance to run some more rounds thru the chrono this morning. We switched to Accurate No. 9 after doing a lot more research. Both the Hornady manual and Accurate's 6th edition manual show loads in the velocity range I'm looking for of 900 to 1000 FPS.

At 10.0 grains it shows promise as the velocity averaged 841 FPS and I've got at least 0.5 grain left before hitting the max of 10.5 per Hornady's manual and 2.0 grains (for a max of 12.0 gr) per the Accurate manual.
I'm beginning to think Hornady's manual is really conservative on the max. Additionally, I took a look at Accurate's Number 2 edition copyrighted in 2000, and the load for No. 9 with the 180 gr XTP bullet show the starting load at 11.7 gr and the max at 13.0 grains. The next steps, cautiously, are 10.2, 10.4, and 10.5 grains.

I also tried Missouri Bullet Company's Hi-Tek 180 gr .358 pugnose bullet with the starting load for jacketed bullets out of Hornady's manual of 9.3 gr of Accurate No. 9. This combination looks like it will be great cheaper option. It produced 863 FPS with the 9.3 grains. Accurate has the starting load of 10.4 grains for a 180 gr WFNGC lead bullet. I'm going to try 9.5 and 9.7 and fine tune in that area.

I'm having a lot of fun reading and researching this. It's quite therapeutic to load ammo. And challenging to find the right combination of powder and bullet.

Now I have to figure out how remove the sheared front mounting screw of the LPA rear sight on my S&W 686 Plus...
It never ends.

I get to pick up my new Ruger New Blackhawk Bisley in .45 Colt next week. Can't wait to shoot it! I got some 250 gr RNFP Hi-Tek coated bullets from Missouri Bullet Company to try in it.

Exiledviking
02-03-2018, 02:25 AM
The cylinder gap is the likely culprit.


Okie JohnFinally got to measure the cylinder gap this evening. It was right around 0.007 on all 7 cylinders. Thank you for making me explore that as I had no knowledge about it. Learned something new!

Hambo
02-03-2018, 05:16 PM
Additionally, I took a look at Accurate's Number 2 edition copyrighted in 2000, and the load for No. 9 with the 180 gr XTP bullet show the starting load at 11.7 gr and the max at 13.0 grains.

The brand new Western manual (including AA powder) lists the max of AA9 with that bullet at 12.0gr.