12 hour Panama shift being proposed at work.

[lwt16]

And to say it's causing a hornet's nest of backlash is putting it mildly.

So if anyone has any experience with this sort of shift, pros and cons, I'd appreciate some feedback. Either openly or PMs.

It's basically working 12s with some sort of two on two off two on three off (I can provide an overview if needed) and switching from days to nights each month. Meaning, one month I'd be 0700-1900 and then the next month 1900-0700.

I've yet to find anyone here (about 400 sworn) that is for it due to sleep interruptions, child care issues, vacation planning, commuting time to work, etc. Basically, old and young cop alike are against this from the feedback I have received locally as well as other sources. Even very high up's in the Chain of command have come to me asking me to submit something up the chain in writing as I have a history of doing that and having some effectiveness in those endeavors.

Thanks in advance.

[Peally]

Not LEO but I've had past experience having to switch between working 3rd/1st and it's a pain in the ass both physically and life wise. I would be seriously surprised if anyone pipped up in favor of it.

[WobblyPossum]

My agency does 12 hour shifts with the same days off rotation for patrol. They don't alternate monthly though. Shift assignments are for one year at a time. It makes it a lot easier to get used to the sleep schedule and plan things such as childcare and vacations out. Alternating monthly would be rough. It takes about a week to adjust to the new sleep cycle after moving from nights to days or vice versa. The positives of 12 hour shifts were mostly related to days off. If you chose not to work overtime or outside job details, you'd only have to work half of your week. If you liked to soak up OT, you'd have a lot of free days to choose from for extra duty. You also got a three day weekend every other week. The rough part about the shifts is that I always found it tough to stay as switched on for 12 straight hours as I could for 8-9.

Is it the alternating months that your people are pushing back against, the 12-hour shifts, or a combination of the two?

[tanner]

How could anyone have a life outside of work?

Can't be in a bowling league, can't take classes... Pretty much can't do anything else on a fixed schedule ever.

[John Hearne]

Just from an officer fatigue standpoint, switching every month is asinine. You need a minimum of six weeks to adjust to a shift in work schedule like that. If they want to rotate, I'd do it every four months. That's enough to get adjusted and the same group doesn't get stuck work day shifts during the summer every year.

[txdpd]

IME it takes officers about 8-12 weeks to fully adjust to night shift, and 3-4 weeks to adjust to a day shift from night shift. I think monthly rotations will have everyone in a constant state of sleep deprivations. Combine that with twelves and you better have slush fund for payouts on car wrecks and other sleep deprived bad decisions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629843/

[lwt16]

Okay, so it's not just me.

I feared that having 20 years in, Saturday Sundays off, with a 0600-1400 shift was clouding my judgement on the matter.

Is there no advantage to this? I've even been told that it increases overtime budgets due to a built in four hours OT for each officer per payday.....not even counting court appearances and training. Supposedly there are huge jumps in absenteeism, use of force complaints, crashes, etc that other agencies have experienced.

Keep the responses coming.

[lwt16]

My agency does 12 hour shifts with the same days off rotation for patrol. They don't alternate monthly though. Shift assignments are for one year at a time. It makes it a lot easier to get used to the sleep schedule and plan things such as childcare and vacations out. Alternating monthly would be rough. It takes about a week to adjust to the new sleep cycle after moving from nights to days or vice versa. The positives of 12 hour shifts were mostly related to days off. If you chose not to work overtime or outside job details, you'd only have to work half of your week. If you liked to soak up OT, you'd have a lot of free days to choose from for extra duty. You also got a three day weekend every other week. The rough part about the shifts is that I always found it tough to stay as switched on for 12 straight hours as I could for 8-9.

Is it the alternating months that your people are pushing back against, the 12-hour shifts, or a combination of the two?

Well, this is very fresh but yes, it's the one month on nights one month on days that is causing the most uproar.

We have many single parents (cause we have a 90 percent divorce rate here) and child care issues as well as going to college to get the degree to advance here (required for Sgt and above) is a huge issue. That is for the younger crowd.

For guys like me pushing 50 years of age, the reality of having to lose sleep in addition to all the other ailments is enormous. Overall I am in good health and I'd like to keep it that way. I have no qualms admitting that rotating sleep like that will only add to my physical decline.

The final destruction of senority is also an issue. It's really all patrol has left.

I figured some of the younger crowd would be all about working them some days but all of them say they have no desire to come work when the "brass" and traffic is out. And I remember uttering the same words when I was on nights.

I have, best I can tell, a month to formulate a written COC letter expressing my concerns from a health, officer safety, and department liability standpoint. So keep it coming.

[LSP552]

LSP patrol folks have worked this for years, and mostly love it. Essentially, you are working half the month. If you have overtime available, such as federal grants for DWI, seatbelt enforcement, etc, you probably have more opportunity to work them due to the additional days off.

I was in Patrol prior to this shift, so I’ve never actually worked it. But, my buddies typically love it for the additional days off.

[WobblyPossum]

If the 12 hour shifts are there to stay, try to articulate the sleep deprivation, officer health consequences and financial liability issues that will come from alternating day/night shift every month. It's really not bad if you stay on your shift for 4-6 months before having to alternate. If you barely have time to get used to the sleep schedule before you swap again, it's going to lead to the problems others have already mentioned.

One way to keep seniority benefits in place is how my agency does shift changes. At the end of the year, shift bids open. Everyone ranks their preference for the available shifts from most to least preferred. If more officers bid a shift than there are spots available, seniority kicks in and the most senior officers get the shift.

[lwt16]

LSP patrol folks have worked this for years, and mostly love it. Essentially, you are working half the month. If you have overtime available, such as federal grants for DWI, seatbelt enforcement, etc, you probably have more opportunity to work them due to the additional days off.

I was in Patrol prior to this shift, so I’ve never actually worked it. But, my buddies typically love it for the additional days off.

Okay, so more OT possibilities. I could see that as a positive.

Not for me though. I'm very nearly debt free and have no desire to work OT other than the occasional four hours for ammo expenditures.

Another concern is off day court appearances. The court here has never made it easy to appear and typically always schedules court on our off days. Well, those of us that aren't off on weekends.

It's in infancy stage currently......talk of a trail run at one of our precincts as well as dispatch. Currently, I have no standing in the matter but always get my ducks and research in a row before sending things up.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

[Jim Watson]

Slow rotating shift schedules are brutal. I bet you can find studies of adverse health and performance effects.
Normally straight days, I hated to be summoned to shift rotation for major test or production programs at my non LE agency.
A 12 hour day is tough, too. I didn't mind a 10 hour day, but that makes for strange schedules for around the clock operations.

[MD7305]

My previous department used that same schedule coming from an 8hr schedule that only afforded one Saturday per month off. They switched to:
M,T-on, W,Th-off, F,Sa,Su-on, M,T-off, W,Th-on, F,Sa,Su-off.

The big draw was every other weekend off, and a 3 day weekend at that. The way they ruined it was making you rotate from days to nights every 2 weeks. So after your weekend off you'd switch. It was brutal, my attitude sucked, I gained weight, couldn't sleep when I wanted and fell asleep when I didn't need to. All suggestions made to change were countered by go somewhere else, we're not changing.
My current employer uses the same schedule but permanent shifts. I love it, cures all the issues I suffered switching. I know of other departments that switch every 28 days or month and they seem to like it that way

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Coming from the fire/medic side, working 24 on 48 off with a 3 week relief day... there are things I love and I don’t. I don’t enjoy waking up after I go to bed, I honestly don’t think we the call volume we work that it’s a safe schedule anymore.

I would love the schedule you describe minus the rotating days/nights every month. I would say six months to a year on rotations. I wouldn’t mind working nights as long as it was consistent.


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[shiv]

I am not LEO but I work 0700-1900, ideally, but we have to be there 0630 and 2000 is the more realistic out time. We are supposed to work three shifts per calendar week. If things worked out the way it’s supposed to work, I would be happy having four days a week off. Ideally we get the option to work six on ending a week with three and starting a week with three every so many weeks and get eight in a row off...like a vacation without losing pay or time off. And when you do take vacation, you can be off weeks at a time without losing pay.

The problem is, they get so short staffed because people drop like flies, call in, etc. we have mandated overtime constantly and we are consistently being forced to flip shifts even during the same week. We all walk around like zombies, have no life outside of work, and our days “off” are simply recovery. This type of work schedule has caused me to gain weight, lose sleep, and I haven’t time for PT. It is terrible.


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[octagon]

If the 12 hour shifts are there to stay, try to articulate the sleep deprivation, officer health consequences and financial liability issues that will come from alternating day/night shift every month. It's really not bad if you stay on your shift for 4-6 months before having to alternate. If you barely have time to get used to the sleep schedule before you swap again, it's going to lead to the problems others have already mentioned.

One way to keep seniority benefits in place is how my agency does shift changes. At the end of the year, shift bids open. Everyone ranks their preference for the available shifts from most to least preferred. If more officers bid a shift than there are spots available, seniority kicks in and the most senior officers get the shift.

DanM hit most of the points I would have posted and I agree with them. I would seriously look at multiple studies that show that revolving shifts have negative health and safety consequences.

Our agency was 8 hour shifts for 3/4 of my career and we switched to 12s after a Plant-Moran study showed how inefficient our 8 hr schedule was. Almost everyone in a union survey wanted to keep 8s but the push was on so we switched. Some other things to consider are how they are going to compensate time. We got 2 personal days when we were on 8s but that changed to 16 hours when we switched to 12s which means only a day and a half. The same issue come up with sick time, Carry over, Vacation etc if they are based on 8 hour now will they change with the 12s?

Overtime- is the agency limiting overtime to days off only with a switch to 12s or limiting total hours worked in a day? We were limited to 16hrs allowed to be worked a day so OT was limited to 4 hour programs on work days and 4,6 or 8 hr OT on days off but they couldn't be combined with coming off or going on to a 12 hr shift. This means OT options were less open than initially believed and a huge pain to coordinate scheduling.

Lastly are you getting OT pay for the extra 4 hours worked each pay period if you work all 12s or straight time? We elected to have an 8 hr day per pay period to avoid OT cost to the city which worked out decently but later changed to straight time just before I retired. Make sure these are worked out beforehand or your agency may try and take advantage of savings where time, and compensation are not clearly established.

[lwt16]

We actually tried four 10s for a while and even those caused manpower issues and increased call time response.

No matter where this goes, and I've been led to believe that it's dead in the water due to backlash, its a complete leadership failure/debacle of enormous proportions. The often quoted phrase "They forget where they came from" when referring to admin is not really the root of the issue. I think it is that admin types, who put the job first in their own lives to climb that career ladder, figure that everyone else is made up of the same mindset. So they come up with ideas like this to justify their existence within the organization.

When in reality, most everyone that I work with (admittedly, older guys set in their ways) put family first....without fail. We see this place as a paycheck and health care and nothing more. We still like getting our hands dirty on the streets and actually pity those that are in admin/office type jobs.

We want stability, seniority to rule, and to be left alone. And I think they are learning this now and destroying any confidence that the line level officers and Sergeants had in their decision making abilities. I'm not sure there is "damage control" for this added stress they are causing.

Time will tell.

[TC215]

Our patrol officers work 12-hour shifts, based on a 28-day cycle. 0700-1900 and 1900-0700.

4 nights, off 3, 3 days, off 1, 3 nights, off 3, 4 days, off 7.

The only good part is the 7 days off.

[BobM]

We work two on, two off, three on, two off, two on, three off every two weeks. The officers this are off every other Fri/Sat/Sun. In that two week cycle each officer has an eight hour day. We bid annually on either days or nights, and what day you want for your short day.
It was well liked when we started it around 2010. It allows junior officers to have weekend days off. When we started it, there four four officer crews, two for days, two for nights. Now each crew is three officers when everyone is available. It's sometimes difficult to cover shifts for sick leave, etc.
I think alternating days and nights would cause a lot of problems. Prior to the above schedule, the shift sergeants were rotating every three months on a five days a week 8 hour schedule. That lasted a year and a half to two years and I think it would've caused more health and fatigue issues had it continued.

[MI Law]

We work the same schedule, except for the rotating days to nights. We have 4 month assignments based solely on seniority.

We are split 60 for/40 against the 12 hours shifts. If you work days, it is awesome. You are off for Thursday night, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday every other week. If you work days, it blows. We get really slow around here after 0230 and it makes the last 4 hours of the shift drag and it's tough to stay sharp.

Court will suck 100% of the time you are on nights. If it is on Monday after you work the weekend, then you are sitting in court tired as hell til at least noon. If it is on Monday after you were off for the weekend, then you ave to wake up at 0700 and sit in court until at least noon...then what do you do? Go home and go to sleep for a couple hours? Personally, I can't do it and end up just being awake for 26+ hours. If court is on Tuesday between work days it's even worse. If it's on your Tuesday off, then it screws up your days off because you already slept away your Monday because you worked the weekend and now you have to sit in court for half of your second day off.

You can substitute training for court in all of these examples too. We frequently have training from 0800-1200 on Wednesdays after working Mon/Tues...none of the night guys learn anything because they are zombies...snoring is not uncommon.

[lwt16]

In-service training is always scheduled 0800-1600 for the convenience of the academy staff and nothing more. I always let the third shift guys have the back of the room or the far ends so that they can sleep with their heads propped up on the wall.

In their defense, most of our training sessions are real snooze fests and it's hard for anyone to stay awake.

[octagon]

In-service training is always scheduled 0800-1600 for the convenience of the academy staff and nothing more. I always let the third shift guys have the back of the room or the far ends so that they can sleep with their heads propped up on the wall.

In their defense, most of our training sessions are real snooze fests and it's hard for anyone to stay awake.

We also did 8 hr in service training and when we switched to 12s we had officers work one day normally off and the 2 days they normally would work all 8 hr days. This works out to be the same 24 hrs of time at work just over 3 days instead of 2. This also helps the guys working nights get a day off to balance some sleep instead of having to go straight from working to boring in service or from in service to working that night. One of the smarter things done with the switch. Days officer had to choose court on workdays to avoid OT but nights could choose work or off day as OT was a given.

[BobM]

I usually make the range schedules and do the best I can to not have the night guys in too early. My co-instructor works nights and sometimes it's difficult working around his schedule.

[psalms144.1]

I've worked similar shifts while in the military, or on protection details. My thoughts are as follows:

1. Everyone knows a 12 hour shift is really a 14+ hour shift, when you figure in admin time at either end of the 12. That leaves 10 hours per work day to sleep, eat, PT, and have a life. Everyone knows that our families aren't going to suck up the loss of time, so what gives first is sleep, followed by PT. This results in over tired, out of shape people with judgement issues and eventual medical issues. This IS NOT a long term "good solution."
2. Rotating 12 hour shifts every month means no one will ever get a "normal" sleep cycle established. This will lead to overtired people with judgement issues - not a "good solution."

I know doctors work worse shifts, but their rarely carrying firearms or driving vehicles at high speed in crowded areas.

[Hambo]

Our patrol officers work 12-hour shifts, based on a 28-day cycle. 0700-1900 and 1900-0700.

4 nights, off 3, 3 days, off 1, 3 nights, off 3, 4 days, off 7.

The only good part is the 7 days off.

That's the craziest shit I've ever heard of.

I ran the OP's proposed schedule past my wife, who has worked a variety of 8s and 12s as a nurse. She said she worked that exact schedule in her first job and that it was the worst she ever had, mainly because of the day/night switch. Her exact words for the OP: "Expect use of force complaints to increase." Gotta love how she thinks, but it's probably true.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Interesting.

My agency works 12 hour shifts.....4 nights......4 off.......4 days......4 off......4 nights.....etc. Just about everyone loves it. No one gets stuck on a crappy shift for 3-4 months at a time, long weekends roll around, and you know your schedule for the whole year. Full -staff is 4 shifts of 7 deputies, 1 Cpl, 1 Sgt, and an investigator. We have take home cars, and it only goes 12+ if you have to finish up before securing. Going to traditional school is problematic, but online classes take care of that. I have far more time at home with my wife than I have ever had working 8s or 10s. Sick vacation is based on 8 hours by the county, and we get short-sheeted a little there..................but in perspective, we only work 1/2 the year!! This is the best schedule I've ever had in 18+ years.

[TheNewbie]

I like 4 10s the best . I think the next best thing working a set schedule (day/nights) and working pretty much the same days every week. So 4 on 3 off, 3 on 4 off. The thought of rotating is not pleasant to me.

[Trooper224]

Some of our younger guys really pushed for a 10 hour schedule here within the last couple of years. As soon as our Superintendent heard "more days off" that was it, no bueno. The fact that coverage would remain the same didn't matter, he heard that and the wall came down. The standard schedule agency wide is: 7 on, 2 off, 8 on, 3 off, with 8 hour shifts as standard. within the days on the first half of the week is second shift and the latter half is first shift, with a turnaround in the middle of the week. During the turnaround you'll get home at midnight and back out by 6 am, so you're probably going on three hours sleep. By the time you reach day eight of that eight day stretch you aren't good for much. I worked that schedule for the first half of my career and suffered from diagnosed chronic fatigue. The metro area where I'm asigned is the only part of my agency that has a third shift, which I work. It may be at night with shit infestation, but it's a steady schedule with no turnaround, no brass and longer days off. In the last eleven years I've had several opportunities to transfer, but I won't go back to that f'd up schedule.

[lwt16]

Interesting.

My agency works 12 hour shifts.....4 nights......4 off.......4 days......4 off......4 nights.....etc. Just about everyone loves it. No one gets stuck on a crappy shift for 3-4 months at a time, long weekends roll around, and you know your schedule for the whole year. Full -staff is 4 shifts of 7 deputies, 1 Cpl, 1 Sgt, and an investigator. We have take home cars, and it only goes 12+ if you have to finish up before securing. Going to traditional school is problematic, but online classes take care of that. I have far more time at home with my wife than I have ever had working 8s or 10s. Sick vacation is based on 8 hours by the county, and we get short-sheeted a little there..................but in perspective, we only work 1/2 the year!! This is the best schedule I've ever had in 18+ years.

Thanks for the feedback.

What age bracket are you, if you don't mind saying? PM if you'd rather.

[TheNewbie]

The reason I like 4 10s is because I have enough seniority now that I work 4pm-2am with Sunday-Tues off. I'm the odd young guy who likes more weekdays off.

When I was out of the academy I looked at Waco PD. They had enough man power to do 4 10s very effectively. You only rotated days off every six months. Sun-Tues/Thurs-Sat.

The worst I ever worked was 12am-8am. For police work 8s are horrible in my opinion, and I never want to do them again. I had rather have worst shift and never rotate than rotate. At least then you can get used to it and plan your life around it.

I like the set 12s with one swing day.

On the Panama schedule if you take 24 hours of time off during your short week , you have 7 straight days off.

[babypanther]

i work a neighboring/surrounding agency to OP. We are on 4-10 Hr workday schedule, with set off days. I love it.

At my last agency it was 5 days, with 8 hours and 2 mandatory to claim OT hours a day (don't ask about that shady shit). Combined with the hour long commute to and from my duty station it was not uncommon for supervisors to tell agents to take a "mental health" day.

[lwt16]

i work a neighboring/surrounding agency to OP. We are on 4-10 Hr workday schedule, with set off days. I love it.

At my last agency it was 5 days, with 8 hours and 2 mandatory to claim OT hours a day (don't ask about that shady shit). Combined with the hour long commute to and from my duty station it was not uncommon for supervisors to tell agents to take a "mental health" day.

Put in a good word for me if I have to come over for the next five.

I used to be on one of y'all's training videos......"The Blue Knight".....if that nickname is still going strong over there.

Hopefully that will count for a resume. lol

[Jim Watson]

Four tens, if they don't change the night - day schedule very often, is pretty much my idea of Heaven at work.
Of course the only time I ever worked a ten hour day, it was 13/14, contract said we had to get a day off every pay period.

[LtDave]

I got to work several different patrol shift plans in my career. For almost all my career, shift rotations were 6 months and you could remain on the same shift for 2 rotations or 1 year before being forced to rotate. I started off with 8 hour shifts, 0800-1600, 1600-2400 and 0000-0800.

We later went to a "9 plan" which was my favorite. In that schedule, you worked 9 days in a 2 week pay period. Eight were 9 hour days and one was 8 hours, with the 8 hour day usually the last one in a pay period. You had 2 days off one weekend and 3 days off the next. This was combined with a half hour briefing and a half hour debrief period at end of shift that was usually used to complete paperwork. Every other weekend was a 3 day weekend.

Never had a 4-10 shift in patrol, but that was the standard for all our investigative and administrative assignments.

The last shift I worked in patrol had was 12.5 hours, 3 days per week. Shifts started at 0600 and 1800 hours. Worked 3 days per week and off 4 days, with the whole patrol team having the same days off so you worked with the same people every day. Scheduled time was 75 hours per pay period, so you either had to work 5 additional hours (not too hard with court time) or use benefit time to make it up. You owed the city an additional 10 hours a month. Most folks used benefit time if they didn't have sufficient court time for the 10 hours. One patrol team had the relief coverage and worked a Friday day shift, a Saturday overlap from 1600-0430 and a night shift of 1800-0630 on Sunday. That was actually a pretty good shift, especially when I was a corporal since each day had a different assignment. On Friday, I would be the patrol sergeant, on Saturdays, I would usually be teamed up with another relief team officer in a City car and Sunday was my turn to be the City crime scene investigation unit.

There were some bad thing about 12 hour shifts. One is usually court time. Working nights you get off at 0630, but had to be back for court at 0900 or 1330 for traffic court. This was a good reason to work the weekend shifts. Another bad thing was travel time. A lot of our officers had to live an hour or more away from our city to afford housing. That made for a 14+ hour workdays if you take the commute into consideration. More than one guy slept in his vehicle in the underground parking lot instead of commuting 2 out of the 3 workdays.

[AMC]

We work a rotating days off 4-10 plan. Days off skip ahead 1 day every week, until you come to your weekend's off, then you get two four day weekends on the actual weekend! And everyone in patrol gets this. Shifts are bid by seniority, every six months. Works out for new guys and senior guys. I think it's the best schedule I've ever heard of, still.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Rotating days / graves on a monthly basis has been shown to be extremely problematic due to sleep issues - and we're a profession that already has sleep issues. We are finally ataffed well enough once a year. Day, Swing, or Graves on M-Th (4/10) or F-Sun (3/12.5 + 1 8hr make up day). It seems like everyone is as happy as they can be.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thanks for the feedback.

What age bracket are you, if you don't mind saying? PM if you'd rather.

I'll be 49 later this year, and my kids are grown, if that has any bearing.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Just to throw a couple out there that I've heard of, but haven't personally worked:

1. An airport PD works 12s but they go 0000-1200 and 1200-0000. Sounded goofy at first, but you are able to take care of personal business without taking time off. Also, any staff meetings take place in and around 1200-ish, so no one has to get up in the middle of their sleep cycle. I imagine that court wouldn't be too bad, either.

2. Lancaster County (NE) SO does (or did) work 4 10s, with either Thu-Fri-Sat off or Sun-Mon-Tue off. Wednesdays was training for 1/2 the shift, then the other 1/2 the next week.

[Nephrology]

not LE but I've done 8s and 12s at different EDs and I've done 12s on other clinical rotations (ie labor & delivery). Never done 10s.

12s are rough, as noted they add up to a to a lot more than 12h/day. Nights are hard no matter the length of shift but o/n 12s are a special form of hell IMO, especially if you sign out at like 8 or 9. I have never once in my life eaten a normal diet while taking o/n call.

If they are going to put you on that schedule, I agree that doing days for at least several months in a row before switching to nights is probably the only way to do it.

[KeeFus]

We currently work the “DuPont” schedule which gives us 7 straight days off once a month. In March we switch to the modified DuPont which is: work 2 off 2, work 3 off 2, work 2 off 3. Rotates every two weeks from days to nights. Shift times are 0600-1800 & 1800-0600.

ETA: seems like every schedule I’ve ever worked was some sort of “DuPont” schedule...

[03RN]

Not le but in healthcare. I work 2300-0700(supposed, more like 0800 because no one shows up on time.) 5 on, 2 off. Working nights I'm not sure I could switch every week. Maybe every month but I've kept the same schedule since I started 6 months ago and am getting used to it.

Prior to school I was a fisherman who planned day by day

[Bigghoss]

We do 12 hour shifts, rotating between nights and days every 6 weeks. Luckily in our union agreement two guys can trade so they can work opposite straight shifts so I do that. We're supposed to have 3 on, 4 off, 4 on, 3 off but we're short staffed so we've been just 4 on, 3 off for going on 3 years now ( federal government for ya). The OT is nice but let's just say a lot more sick leave gets used. Good for me because I'm a bachelor so I can grab all the OT I can stand and spend it on guns.

Most folks don't like the rotating shifts but last time we voted on it a small majority voted to keep rotating, mostly because they we afraid of getting stuck on the shift they didn't like or with the A-hole captain. I've only talked to a handful of people that like rotating because it breaks up the monotony. A few others don't like working nights but they don't want to give up night differential either.

For days off we can pick any consecutive 3 days, assuming they're available. Seniority determines who picks days off first. They tried to restrict us to specific blocks to make writing schedules easier but we fought that pretty hard. The LTs that do the schedules are mostly lazy and incompetent and if it were up to me their office would lock from the outside so reducing their already small workload at the expense of our preffered days off didn't go over too well. Especially when they already spend too much of the shift getting in the way as it is.

[TF82]

This is my first post but I've been lurking for a while. I have some experience in this area from being fairly active in my union.

One thing when switching to 12 hour shifts that everyone should watch for is an increase in hours worked per year. Until our last contract my job worked 4 days on B line, 2 days off, 4 days on C line, 2 days off, 4 days on A line, 2 days off and so on (just in case you thought rotating every month sucks). When our recently departed chief came from another job he sold himself by telling the politicians that he was going to get us to switch to 12 hour shifts and reduce overtime and we were going to love it because we'd have more days off. That all sounds interesting until we ran the numbers and his proposed schedule had us working 15% more hours, because duh, you can't increase coverage with the same number of guys without making them work more. Needless to say we didn't go for it. Also, I've worked plenty of 12 hour shifts due to details after my regular tour or getting stuck on arrests, etc. and to me the day was ruined. If I came in at 0800 and got out at 2000 its not like I was going to get home and cut my grass or get to spend time with my kids who would be going to bed at any minute. At that rate I would rather the OT be available and work 16 so I'd at least be getting 8 hours of overtime for my ruined day rather than nothing. Now we work 4 on, 2 off rotating Bs and Cs and the A line works 4 on, 2 off, 4 on 3 off. We don't have give back days so its a pretty good chart.

My main point though is that any time administration proposes a schedule change, be vigilant because its probably a cost cutting scheme.

[JTQ]

Slow rotating shift schedules are brutal. I bet you can find studies of adverse health and performance effects.
I've worked rapid rotating shifts in the military, two day shifts, followed by two night shifts then time off.

As an Airfield Operations Flight Commander, years ago, we had some USAF medical researchers come and study our air traffic controllers and air field operations personnel that were operating on the rapidly rotating shift schedule. I had an opportunity to discuss the findings with the researchers.

Since the shifts were rapidly rotating through day and then night shifts, your body basically stayed on a "normal" time zone life, since your adrenaline (or whatever it was that allowed you to do it) would allow you to power through the night shifts. Your body never really changed time zones, so to speak.

In the slowly rotating schedules, your body would have the opportunity to shift to the new time zone, but of course you'd need to shift back to the other time zone when you went back on day shifts. The researchers believed this slowly rotating shift schedule was more detrimental to your health than the rapidly rotating schedule as having the body constantly changing time zones, back and forth, was worse than the temporary sleep deprivation.

[navyman8903]

So I'm Military LE and I know it's not the same. But I've been on a bunch of schedules because the good idea fairy is never killed on sight. But 3-2-2-3 12's is a great schedule so long as the rotation is done right and you're not changing every month. We tend to stay on days or nights for 3 months, then we rotate. The only thing better than panama 12's is panama 8's. Which I enjoyed for a few months when we had proper manning. It sucks getting used to 12's after 8's. Plus the extra time we all wake up, drive in, get armed up and do guard mount. So it's always 10 hours not 8, and 14 hours not 12. But having every other 3 day weekend off and having a training day once or even twice a month isn't terrible. You work less days a month than 5-2. And I definitely missed the panama when I went to CID and was on 5-2, but the only investigator for the base so it was pretty much a 7-0 during certain periods of time.

It just depends on how things are. 8's are nice if you're in a busy zone, 12's are nice if you have 2 or 3 reports. 12's suck in high crime or high call volume areas. You end up staying forever and people forget reports don't write themselves.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve worked 4-10s the majority of my career. I actually work 4-9s because I get paid an hour a day for dog care. Back in my slick sleeve days we rotated as squads every six months. Now Patrols bids for yearly shifts.

There was a year that we worked 5-8s on a schedule a Captain wrote up as his thesis. No shit. Too bad he didn’t put overlap into it. Days was 07-15, Swings was 15-23, Graves was 23-07. It was supposed to save on OT. Bwahaha because I made OT until I was sick of it. It never failed. 2245 copy an accident at the intersection the farthest from the station in the District. The oncoming shift relieving you. Yeah right. We worked it a year to save face then quickly went back to 4-10s.

I’ve worked 12s on off duty jobs. I have absolutely no desire to work 12s. None.

[LSP552]

I’ve worked 4-10s the majority of my career.


Best shift I ever worked was 4-10s. When I was a senior detective, I had every Fri off. My 1st Wife (deceased) was a senior forensic scientist at the crime lab, on the same schedule. We had 3 day weekends every week.

Of course we got a new superintendent who decided that there were only 2 shifts in LSP. 12 hrs for patrol, 8 for everyone else......

Because rank makes you smarter than any one else....

[Hambo]

Our patrol schedule was 6 on, 2 off, for three rotations, then 6 on , 4 off. Shifts were 0600-1400, 1400-2200, and 2200-0600 by seniority bid, so once you had the time on to stay where you wanted you could. The brass hated it because some guys worked nights just so they never had to see a chief and there was fuck all they could do about it.

I heard a story from a guy on another department, and I'm not sure if it was true or a sea story. They switched from six 8s to four 10s, and he said their use of force complaints dropped because most of them came at the end of the six day work cycles. Again, I can't remember if he said, "This is no shit..." at the beginning of the story.

[Jim Watson]

Our patrol schedule was 6 on, 2 off, for three rotations, then 6 on , 4 off. Shifts were 0600-1400, 1400-2200, and 2200-0600 by seniority bid, so once you had the time on to stay where you wanted you could. The brass hated it because some guys worked nights just so they never had to see a chief and there was fuck all they could do about it. .

I know one guy who volunteered to work the midnight shift rather than get on the debilitating rotation.
Another amassed enough seniority to work straight evenings and never saw another morning on the job.

[Chuck Whitlock]

It just depends on how things are. 8's are nice if you're in a busy zone, 12's are nice if you have 2 or 3 reports. 12's suck in high crime or high call volume areas. You end up staying forever and people forget reports don't write themselves.

+1.

Activity/call volume and agency size are going to big factors. My previous agencies were about a dozen sworn. If you worked days, you worked weekends, because the admin was off.....you covered if your relief called in sick, etc.

On my current schedule, I get to sleep with my wife 12 out of every 16 days, which was not the case working evenings or midnights for 3-4 months at a stretch. Depends on your priorities.

[lwt16]

Well.......

Due to the uprising and general whining, this "idea" has been shelved....hopefully permanently.

We were told this morning in roll call that it's officially dead in the water. I had inservice with one of the very high ups a couple of weeks back and expressed my general negativity in a most blunt fashion.

Pro tip: If you are admin, and you can't take someone cracking jokes about dumb ideas that admin comes up with, choose a different date to go to in-service. Some of us have been around long enough to know the fine line between expressing displeasure openly and insubordination.

Thanks for all the posts gents and ladies. It helped me steer in rough waters.

[willie]

I understand this for sure. I worked at a place where a new guy got a big ass chewing for his sincere suggestions put anonymously in a suggestion box. It was under camera surveillance. Nobody else was dumb enough to make suggestions.The admin folks eventually removed the box. Once in a school I picked up and carried a chair-desk from the second floor to the first. I was helping out a nice older lady. On the way down the stairs, the principal stopped me and yelled,"Who's running this place, me or you?"

[JBP55]

LSP patrol folks have worked this for years, and mostly love it. Essentially, you are working half the month. If you have overtime available, such as federal grants for DWI, seatbelt enforcement, etc, you probably have more opportunity to work them due to the additional days off.

I was in Patrol prior to this shift, so I’ve never actually worked it. But, my buddies typically love it for the additional days off.


Walker PD has worked this shift since about 2005 and they love working only 6 months a year.
The dispatchers work same shift.

[feudist]

One precinct I worked had a suggestion box on the wall in the roll call. It was made out of an ammo can and painted red. It was welded shut.

[willie]

One precinct I worked had a suggestion box on the wall in the roll call. It was made out of an ammo can and painted red. It was welded shut.

Is that as bad as being under camera surveillance? :D

[feudist]

Is that as bad as being under camera surveillance? :D

Well, both send a crystal clear message, don't they?:)

[Hambo]

One precinct I worked had a suggestion box on the wall in the roll call. It was made out of an ammo can and painted red. It was welded shut.

Great idea but unnecessary: just don't check the box. We had a chief who had boxes put out, but they ended up jammed full because either no one was responsible for checking or no one gave a fuck about suggestions.

[NMPOPS]

While an active LEO i never woked a regular 12 hr work schedule. However, after retirement I di work for INTEL for 6 years working their 12 hour schedule. 4 days on, 3 off, then 3 days on 4 days off. 84 hours of work per payday, and you only worked 14 days out of 28. Great schedule because we did not rotate from days to nights. I worked 6pm tp 6am for 6 years straight.

[bpack325]

Our patrol officers work 12-hour shifts, based on a 28-day cycle. 0700-1900 and 1900-0700.

4 nights, off 3, 3 days, off 1, 3 nights, off 3, 4 days, off 7.

The only good part is the 7 days off.

That's my exact schedule except for start/end time, and the 7 days off is usually where the mandatory OT comes in

[Dr. No]

4 10's are the way to go. Our patrol you bid for day/evening/night shift once a year. Two shifts who work half the week. When I was out there you worked T-F or F-M and Friday was the heavy day where we'd do special assignments, hunt, whatever.

Love 10's. Rotating from day/night is an absolute nightmare. If you are at all concerned about troop morale, stay away from that unless it's an extended rotation (ever 4+ months)