My First Foray into the World of Real Gel--9mn Loads

[Tokarev]

Good evening.

I have always been interested in internal, external and terminal ballistics. As a shooter and reloader, it was only logical to try dabbling in ballistic gel.

I have previously used 10% synthetic gel from Clear Ballistics but have always been curious about the real stuff. Well, I figured it was time to try my hand at making a block of 10% gel.

I used grocery store gel packs and used one kilogram of powder to 9 liters of water. Water was measured at 126° from the kitchen faucet. Powder was added slowly and the mixture was mixed the entire time until all the powder was added and there were no clumps. The mixing process took about an hour including stirring the mix gently until the foam was gone.

Next the liquid and mold went into the refrigerator for about 50 hours before it was removed and placed in a Coleman cooler for transport to the hills.

Transport time was about an hour. I set up my chronograph and fired three BBs into the block to check calibration. I think, due to the time of day and the onset of dusk, my chronograph wouldn't register BB velocity. Anyway, I've found my little BB gun registers somewhere between 570-600 fps.

After this I fired two different 9mm loads into the block. Two rounds of each load were fired into bare gel and two rounds of each load were fired using the heavy clothing layers sold by Clear Ballistics.

Loads tested were ASYM 115gr +P loaded with Barnes Bullets and the Wilson Combat 95gr load also using a Barnes bullet.

Both loads are running just under 1,200 fps (chronograph registered these) from my Ruger Officer Model.

The ASYM 115gr load feels pretty snappy. Penetration was good with both bullets reaching just over 13 inches.

The Wilson load is quite mild and would probably be a nice choice for something like a SIG 938 or Shield although penetration was a bit short with this load. Both bullets punched to about 9.5 inches in my block.

Clothing appeared to have little effect on either bullet/load with penetration nearly the same regardless of barrier VS no barrier.

Overall, a fun experiment and one that I'll try again soon!

BB calibration. Right at the edge of failure
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/350e1cf396f3c478e0b4e327e4ff8ba7.jpg

115GR ASYM loaded with Barnes Bullet
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/6b9f2efd9bdfc46f7716f9bb5572a750.jpg

95GR Wilson Combat loaded with Barnes Bullets
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/61636ef7e317d9c76360c0f5024d88ca.jpg

All bullets removed from the gel
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/922792614354768229503e14e1353f6a.jpg

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[the Schwartz]

I think that your first test is pretty good for a first attempt.

Since 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) is the upper limit for BB calibration, your calibration is so close to the standard (the width of the BB) that I would not even bother with computing a correction.

What did you get for the average expanded diameter, impact velocities, retained weight and actual measured penetration depth of the two test rounds?

[Tokarev]

I think that your first test is pretty good for a first attempt.

Since 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) is the upper limit for BB calibration, your calibration is so close to the standard (the width of the BB) that I would not even bother with computing a correction.

What did you get for the average expanded diameter, impact velocities, retained weight and actual measured penetration depth of the two test rounds?

I'll get retained weight and expanded diameter measurements for you later on today.

As far as the other stuff; I wasn't sure how successful my first attempt was going to be and I guess I wasn't really ready to take a bunch of notes. When my chronograph failed to read the three calibration BBs I was toying with the idea of packing everything back up and heading back for the house. Then I decided I didn't want to further corrupt the test by trying to figure out what impact re-cooling the block would have. Plus I'm sure my wife, as supportive as she is, wanted the fridge space back...

My chronograph was set up immediately in front of the block and, although I didn't record the velocities, both sets of rounds showed velocities of just under 1,200 fps. The Wilson Combat load is only slightly faster than the ASYM load even though it is 20gr lighter. Fired primers on the Wilson brass looked fine and normal while the ASYM primers were flat with the impact dimple blown clear out. The Ruger does this with hotter ammo but the ASYM seemed a bit extreme. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised since they've taken what amounts to a bullet that's about as long as a 147gr and ramped it up to nearly 1,200 fps.

The ASYM 115gr load worked the best and would obviously be the better choice for defense with 13.25" in clothing and 13.75" in bare. The lighter Wilson load only penetrated 9.5" in bare and about 9.25" through clothing. Short of the FBI protocols and probably not much better than some 380 Auto loads although with good expansion.

Even though both loads are running close to 1,200 fps the Wilson load doesn't seem to have opened up as much as the ASYM load. The ASYM's petals, while not bent clear back, are rolled back a little more than the Wilson. Again, I'll post actual measurements later today.

Overall, I am quite pleased with how the gel turned out. I'm not sure yet how often I'm going to make blocks and just often I'm going to test. I suppose the logical thing to do is make a block whenever I have the desire to test something that doesn't have tons of test data already. No point in going through the time and effort to make a block to test something like 9mm 124 or 147 HST when there's already been a ton of testing with those bullets. I think I'll stick to testing oddball stuff like the ASYM and Wilson loads.

Anyway, if anyone has any advice, etc. I welcome the feedback.

[octagon]

Good stuff thank you for sharing. I have always been curious how close clear gel is to 10% ordinance gel when the same gun, ammo and conditions are used with each tested bare, clothed, and barrier tests. I never have found much info on the differences other than penetration and almost nothing on permanent or stretch cavity, expansion, weight retained etc. between the two.

[Tokarev]

Here's some info on Clear vs Real gel:

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/tag/ballistic-gel/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Synthetic%20Gelatin/Synthetic%20Gelatin.html

[Tokarev]

Here are the weight and diameter measurements.

115gr https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/ecedac39863c30600e7ce405e6d8fd14.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/5144cf16efb6176a632d4f46e310c181.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/3f5c98cc74c5d94b63a0e6525f0b2bc0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/fa5342e018837a8e859ac853c170c555.jpg

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[Tokarev]

And the 95gr. Note that the bullet fired through clothing has a slightly larger diameter. Could mean nothing though since my test sample is too small to draw conclusions. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/bc6f396e25f534e2dd1da8e8101a7360.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/d51106261e74c6f914a65a30e2d08d96.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/b44d6313cf8847fc5d6d5b2608a89f98.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/685e0354938a2256273e1baef5d44cbe.jpg

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[LOBO]

Thanks for doing the work & sharing your results with us.

[Tokarev]

Oops. I posted one of the 115gr photos twice. Here's the correct photo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180124/b2385dba69cb5dfb88b3a551b09a8374.jpg

[DocGKR]

Instead of using kitchen gel, I'd recommend type 250A ordnance gel for your next attempt....

[Tokarev]

Instead of using kitchen gel, I'd recommend type 250A ordnance gel for your next attempt....

Yessir. That's the plan eventually. I figured I'd experiment with a small quantity(ies) of the local stuff before buying a 10lb box of ordnance gel.

[the Schwartz]

Yessir. That's the plan eventually. I figured I'd experiment with a small quantity(ies) of the local stuff before buying a 10lb box of ordnance gel.

Thanks for posting your results. Schedule ate me alive these last few days; did not want to you think that I had forgotten you.

What I found really surprising about your use of 'not really the real gel you are s'posed to be using' was how good it did work out in terms of how closely your calibration came out.

[DocGKR]

Note that the BB shot into the gel is for "validation", "calibration" is something else.

[the Schwartz]

Note that the BB shot into the gel is for "validation", "calibration" is something else.

For those of us unaware of the distinction, could you please elaborate Doc?

I would consider myself just that much more educated on the topic if you would do so. :cool:

[willie]

In designing instruments such as a questionnaire in social science research, establishing validity and reliability levels is essential. A valid instrument measures what it is supposed to measure. A reliable instrument will do so over and over again. They are neither the same nor interchangeable. I would not have thought that engineers with their high math aptitude would confuse the two V's that you discussed.

[Tokarev]

Here's a test of the Wilson 95gr that was conducted with Clear Ballistics gel. Note the 3+ inches of additional penetration over what I saw in my organic block.

I do note that this reviewer was getting a muzzle velocity about 100 fps higher than what I saw from my Ruger Officer.

https://handgunplanet.com/review/ammo-review-wilson-combat-95-grain-barnes-tac-xp-9mm/

[Tokarev]

I'm going to make another kitchen gel block today.

Last time I mixed the powder and water right in the mold. This time I think I'll mix in a bucket and pour the goo into the mold. I'm going to line the mold with a trash bag before pouring with the idea that the plastic liner will make the cooled block easier to remove.

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[DocGKR]

Try using a clear plastic storage bin of the appropriate size--these make simple, inexpensive molds that are easy to remove the blocks from.

[Tokarev]

Try using a clear plastic storage bin of the appropriate size--these make simple, inexpensive molds that are easy to remove the blocks from.Sounds like a good plan.

Speaking of molds it seems odd to me that the FBI wants to see between 12 and 18 inches of penetration but the standard FBI block is 16in long.

I have the new batch whipped up and poured. I'm going to let it sit at room temperature for awhile (four hours per some instructions I found online) before putting in the fridge. I'm hoping the time in warm air will allow the few small bubbles to float up and pop.

Once I'm satisfied with my mixing methods I'll see about getting some VYSE or Gelita powder.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180127/78ee0eece14cd73968eb283e9d779403.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Five hours or so sitting at room temp. The gel is setting up nicely.

Into the fridge it goes. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180127/fdeb59c072822ec68e477aa66cf90509.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Here is the method I followed. I'm not sure what might have gone wrong. I attempted to "calibrate" last night and a BB penetrated over six inches.

Maybe the block wasn't adequately cooled. I'll try another BB this evening.

BALLISTIC GELATIN MIXING PROCEDURES PRACTICED BY THE FBI

In December 1988, the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit (FTU) designed and implemented the FBI Ammunition Tests. The test designs are based on research and consultation with experts in the fields of wound
ballistics, forensic pathology, wound research and medical research. The tissue simulant utilized in FBI ballistic tests is Vyse Ordinance Gelatin.

The mixture is 10%, by weight. The mentioned research shows that properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Calibration of ballistic gelatin is verified by firing a .177 steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" – 3.74"). During FBI tests, any gelatin blocks, which fail the calibration test, are discarded. Calibration results are not published due to the Pass/Fail nature of the test.

Mixing Gelatin
The gelatin is mixed in the following manner (assuming a twenty-pound block is desired)
1) Weigh out two (2) lbs. of gelatin powder and place aside

2) Weigh out 18 lbs. of hot 60° C (140° F) water in a plastic bucket. (Note: The FBI utilizes a scale, which
weighs to the nearest .01 lb)

3) Place 2.5 ml of Foam Eater in water

4) Place approximately .5 ml. of oil of cinnamon into water (prevents fungus growth)

5) While utilizing a battery-operated drill with a mixing paddle attached, mix the water to the point of forming a whirlpool, without introducing air into the mixture

6) While the water is being mixed, slowly add the gelatin powder

7) Pour the mixture into a clean mold pan

8) Allow to stand at room temperature for approximately 4 hours

9) Write date on small square of cardboard and place on top of mixture

10) Place pan with mixture into refrigerator set at 4° C (39.2° F)

11) Allow curing for 36 hours (note: larger blocks require longer cure time. (e.g. an 80lb block requires 96
hours to cure) Blocks, over time, deteriorate and are temperature sensitive. Former FBI publications advocated utilizing blocks within 20 minutes of removal from the refrigerator, a general statement pertaining to ambient temperature
indoors). Allowable time outside the refrigerator is, however, relative to the temperature of the test environment (e.g. a block removed from a refrigerator and maintained in a room at the same temperature as the refrigerator will retain its calibration significantly longer than one placed outside on a hot summer day). Note: Some authorities believe mixing procedures may vary the consistency of gelatin. FBI studies indicate, however, that a block, which displays the required level of penetration, within the required velocity range, is a “valid” tissue simulant. The FBI Ballistic Research Facility conducts its tests in an environmentally controlled shooting laboratory. The blocks of gelatin are removed from the refrigerator and checked for calibration. Only valid blocks are used for test.

Blocks used in testing of conventional pistol ammunition are approximately 6.25" X 6.25" X 16". The initial block of gelatin used in a test is referred to as “The Primary Block”. Each Primary Block is utilized for a maximum of five shots, one in each corner, approximately 1.75" from the nearest edge, and one in the center. Tests conducted by the FBI indicate this placement of shots results in substantially the same penetration as single shots into virgin blocks of gelatin. Any shots, which cross the wound path of previous shots, are re-fired. Primary blocks are not utilized for more than five shots, to include any shots, which are re-fired. Because some shots may penetrate more than one block of gelatin, one or more “stopper” blocks are placed behind the primary block. The stopper blocks may be utilized for more than one test, if the wound channels are not crossed. At the end of each test, the stopper block is placed back into the refrigerator while another stopper is utilized with an unused Primary block. Stopper blocks may receive more than five penetrations; if no wound channels are crossed, (e.g. a stopper, which has five penetrations of 3” into one end, can be flipped over and used as a subsequent “stopper.”) The FBI does not reuse gelatin. Used blocks are discarded.

[Tokarev]

Okay, I have some good news and some bad news.

First, the bad news. The gel has been in the refrigerator for a day and a night but won't solidify. It is no longer liquid but it wiggles and jiggles like some sort of high school cafeteria dessert. Validation with a BB results in something like six inches of penetration. A quick call to Now Foods (the maker of this particular grocery store brand) reveals that the Bloom is 150.

The good news? I guess there is no good news other than I've learned that not all grocery store gel is the same. None of the retail packaging seems to include info on Bloom so it is basically a roll of the dice I guess. Or the good news can be that I've learned a powerful lesson and have decided to order a 10lb bag of powder from Custom Collagen.

https://www.customcollagen.com/ballistic-gelatin/

This should be the real stuff and will hopefully work well for me. I had been planning on getting some of this eventually anyway.

Interestingly, I found an older YouTube video done by Andrew (Blue-Falcon on ar15.com) where he links a Now Foods gel product as the product he uses for his ammo testing.

[5pins]

You should shoot it anyway just for fun.

[Tokarev]

You should shoot it anyway just for fun.Maybe although I doubt I'll be able to recover any bullets. If a BB penetrates nearly halfway I imagine handgun ammo will pass completely through.

Maybe I'll put some strawberries and whipped cream on it. Bring it into the office and see how many of my coworkers eat it.

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[octagon]

Sorry to hear it didn't work out. Since you already put time and effort into the block(s) have you thought about shooting them anyways just for data? How does a block like this compare to your earlier block of food grade gel and later to ordinance grade gel properly prepared? Does twice the validation BB penetration equal similar from projectiles from handgun/longuns? That kind of thing. Sometimes even a mistake or different test can yield useful information. Just a thought.

[Shawn Dodson]

Spray your gelatin mold with CRC silicon oil as a release agent before you pour in the gelatin solution. You can get it at Walmart for about $2.00/can - https://www.walmart.com/ip/CRC-Heavy-Duty-Multi-Use-Silicone-Lubricant-11-oz-Aerosol-Can/16817419

[Tokarev]

Spray your gelatin mold with CRC silicon oil as a release agent before you pour in the gelatin solution. You can get it at Walmart for about $2.00/can - https://www.walmart.com/ip/CRC-Heavy-Duty-Multi-Use-Silicone-Lubricant-11-oz-Aerosol-Can/16817419

I will absolutely give this a try. Thanks!

[Tokarev]

Progress!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180202/6ea4ddb1795f6cd027c28786c798aec7.jpg

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[Tokarev]

I've just put another block in the refrigerator. This one is made from 250 bloom pork gel using the following techniques:

I weighed out 1kg of powder and measured 9 liters of hot (about 130 degree) tap water. The water went into a 5-gal bucket. Powder was slowly added while the water was agitated/swirled using an electric drill and paint stirring bit. Time to add gel and stir until no clumps were seen was 10 minutes. The bucket was then allowed to sit for 20 minutes to allow the mix to settle and some of the foam to dissipate. The top layer of foam was gently scraped off then the mix was poured into the 6X16 mold that had been sprayed with silicon lube. The block was then covered with a cookie sheet and allowed to sit at room temperature for four hours.

When first poured the mix had a slight amount of foam on top that has slowly dissipated as the gel has cooled. There are just a faint few residual bubbles on top now as the block goes into the fridge.

The block will be in the mold until tomorrow at 6pm. I will then pull it from the mold and let it sit in the fridge for another 24 hours at least. Fingers crossed that this one will be a good one.

The above is more for my own reference rather than for anyone to read. If the block turns out and I'm happy with it I'll use the steps listed above and/or modify as needed.

Thanks!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/3b4b889f06bbae3a6173ac04bb77c475.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/982debe69880d7a983f9812511c876ad.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/62eae53b060fbf765937499e6b30abfe.jpg

[5pins]

I have been thinking of giving real gel a try but my fridge is too small. Then I remembered, there's always room for jello.

[Tokarev]

I have been thinking of giving real gel a try but my fridge is too small. Then I remembered, there's always room for jello.Ugh. Where's the roll eyes emoji when I need it?



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[5pins]

:rolleyes:<-------<<

[Tokarev]

The block has been in the fridge about 15 hours. It feels pretty solid by poking a finger into the top.

It is fairly clear too. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/7c33bcbc9dab667a12e85f4ae4a2a7bc.jpg

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[lyodbraun]

Time to get out and shoot some rounds into that block now... wish there was a way to save and preserve the gel for long periods..

[Tokarev]

Alright. Block #1 is out of the mold and Block #2 has been poured and is chilling in the fridge. Both blocks will remain under refrigeration for at least an additional 48 hours.

Two changes were made between Blocks 1 and 2. Even though I'd sprayed down the mold with silicon lube I still had a heck of a time getting the block out of the mold. I resorted to the bread knife around the edges and still managed to tear one corner of the block. So, for Block 2, I went back to lining the mold with a trash bag. I tried to get the bag formed into the mold as much as possible to help avoid seams and wrinkles in the block. The second change was leaving the block out at room temperature for eight hours rather than four. This allowed the block to cool enough to be relatively solid thereby making it easier to put into the fridge. When the block is in a fully liquid state it is pretty easy to slosh and spill when moving.

Block #1 out of the mold. Note the tear on the left side of the block. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180205/545f8165b17ac7010354e5270df14ae8.jpg

[Tokarev]

Okay, fellows. The gel has been shot. I'm pleased with the outcome and will likely be using VYSE gel from Custom Collagen from here on out.

I tested some handloads using Barnes 80gr copper bullets in my 9mm Officer and also the new Federal HST 38 Special +P in a Ruger LCR.

I will post results in their own threads especially since people have been curious about the new Federal load.

Next up will likely be the new 300 Blackout subsonic load from Hornday. Hopefully next weekend.

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[Shawn Dodson]

It does take a little effort to get a gelatin block out of the mold even with the silicon spray. I would hold the mold upside down and gently coax the block out starting at one of the long ends.

Another method you can use is to put the refrigerated mold into a tub of warm water, taking care not to allow the water to spill into the mold, to melt the outside surface of the gelatin just enough so it "slurps" out of the mold when you turn it upside down. The gel will quickly set again after its out of the mold. This method produces a nice transparent surface that's good for photos.

[Tokarev]

It does take a little effort to get a gelatin block out of the mold even with the silicon spray. I would hold the mold upside down and gently coax the block out starting at one of the long ends.

Another method you can use is to put the refrigerated mold into a tub of warm water, taking care not to allow the water to spill into the mold, to melt the outside surface of the gelatin just enough so it "slurps" out of the mold when you turn it upside down. The gel will quickly set again after its out of the mold. This method produces a nice transparent surface that's good for photos.

I'll try the warm water soak next time.

The trash bag liner worked well and the block came out without a fight. The downside is the bag left some small wrinkles and a pattern on the bottom of the block. Or the top of the block depending on how you look at it.

[DocGKR]

Clear plastic Rubbermaid bins work VERY WELL as molds and are EASY to get the gel out of...

[Tokarev]

Clear plastic Rubbermaid bins work VERY WELL as molds and are EASY to get the gel out of...

I poked around the local Walmart the other evening looking for something suitable for gel. Unfortunately all they seem to have are either large storage tubs for toys or clothes or small stuff meant for food storage. I might have to visit The Container Store and see what they might have.

[Robinson]

Next up will likely be the new 300 Blackout subsonic load from Hornday. Hopefully next weekend.

That Hornady Sub-X offering does look interesting -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results. Any idea what barrel length you will be using for that test?

[Tokarev]

That Hornady Sub-X offering does look interesting -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results. Any idea what barrel length you will be using for that test?I have a 16" and 12.5" I'll use.

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[DocGKR]

For gel molds, we use 66 qt clear plastic bins purchased at Amazon, Target, Wal Mart, or the local hardware store. The Sterilite model #1758 w/lid (http://www.sterilite.com/SelectProduct.html?id=605&view=1&tab=Uses&ProductCategory=252&section=7) works very well and is quite versatile, as it can easily be used to make blocks from 40 to 80 lbs.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31wecma9bQL._SX463_.jpg

[Zhukov]

It's good to see more people testing bullets with actual ballistic gelatin. Kudos, OP!

[CoGT3]

That Hornady Sub-X offering does look interesting -- I'm looking forward to seeing your results. Any idea what barrel length you will be using for that test?

Also interested to see how the Hornady Sub-x shakes out. To see Hornady take the time to develop a 300 BO sub has me reconsidering 300 BO. There must be some interest in the LE community, Hornady has the round listed on their LE site with pretty detailed ballistic information.

Still wondering though whether we are still dealing with a 45 ACP in disguise. Not sure what the increased sectional density and a properly designed sub round will mean in real world duty/HD use. Guess time will tell, unless Doc has any insight.


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[Tokarev]

Also interested to see how the Hornady Sub-x shakes out. To see Hornady take the time to develop a 300 BO sub has me reconsidering 300 BO. There must be some interest in the LE community, Hornady has the round listed on their LE site with pretty detailed ballistic information.

Test canceled due to weather. Maybe tomorrow.

Teaser pic in the meantime.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180214/9132716503c5168268f33142b30fd475.jpg

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[5pins]

I wonder if there is any real difference between the TAP and the "civi" brand.

[Tokarev]

I wonder if there is any real difference between the TAP and the "civi" brand.Good question. I'll have to try both.

I was just on the Hornady LE site. They're getting a bit more than 16in in gel. I better wait until I have another block mixed.

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[5pins]

Looks promising.

23800

[Mike C]

Tokarev where were you able to pickup the Hornady Expanding 300 BLK? I can’t seem to find anyone that has some in stock. Thanks.

[Tokarev]

Tokarev where were you able to pickup the Hornady Expanding 300 BLK? I can’t seem to find anyone that has some in stock. Thanks.I bought a couple boxes from GT Distributors. Mine is the TAP version though so it may not be the same as the civilian stuff. My guess though is that it is the same. If anything it may have a more flash resistant powder or something.

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[Robinson]

Still wondering though whether we are still dealing with a 45 ACP in disguise. Not sure what the increased sectional density and a properly designed sub round will mean in real world duty/HD use.

Based on what I've read, subsonic 300 BO will penetrate things that most pistol rounds will not. A well performing, expanding bullet at subsonic velocities that is readily available will be a good thing I think.

[5pins]

Back in stock at Midway.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/741787/hornady-subsonic-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-190-grain-sub-x-subsonic-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-20

[Mike C]

I bought a couple boxes from GT Distributors. Mine is the TAP version though so it may not be the same as the civilian stuff. My guess though is that it is the same. If anything it may have a more flash resistant powder or something.

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Please post your results when you have them. I am exited to see them. Hopefully Doc will test these.

[Tokarev]

I'll try this for a mold next time. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/ee07edf36dee8c24186bcbe25412e068.jpg

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[DocGKR]

See post #44 above.

[Tokarev]

See post #44 above.Unfortunately I'm not ready for huge blocks. My wife's already hounding me about taking up space in her refrigerator so she really wouldn't like a 40lb block. The small dorm fridge I have in the garage won't even contain a 16in block. Plus my Coleman cooler I've been using to travel to my shooting spot might not hold something much bigger.

At some point, if I continue to make and use gel on a regular basis, I will buy a larger dorm refrigerator for gel use only. I'll probably also have to get a Yeti cooler or something while I'm at it. Fill it will those blue freezer ice bags the night before so the interior is cool before loading up the gel.

I will also need to get a folding table or something to set the gel on prior to shooting. Right now I'm just setting it on the lid of the cooler. I can get two blocks end to end if I go diagonally across.

I also need to make a brace to hold glass. I'm thinking a framework made from PVC might work. Something that is leaned back at 45° that I can rest a piece of glass on.

Hobby? What hobby?

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[DocGKR]

Wait till you try an 80 lbs block and a .338 mag...

[Tokarev]

Wait till you try an 80 lbs block and a .338 mag...Ugh. The way it sounds I'm going to need to buy a pickup truck...

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[Wayne Dobbs]

Ugh. The way it sounds I'm going to need to buy a pickup truck...

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Ummm, how do you expect to be taken seriously by us Texans if you DON'T have a pickup??

[Tokarev]

Alright, guys. I have tested 300BLK 190gr Sub-X in gel and have created a new thread.

In addition, I tried two of the ASYM 9mm 115gr +P rounds loaded with Barnes Bullets through auto glass. These were fired from my Ruger 9mm Officer's.

Both bullets retained their weight and punched to just shy of a foot. Not bad for a compact concealment handgun. This load is fairly expensive but it might be an excellent choice for defensive work.

No chrono testing done this time since I did chronograph work previously.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/1b6e0e9ed6e1f44932b36b32b5e4df4c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/7e1740d86452bb4af08a02f90f4d0cb6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/8c9c834c2b27d17ba9604e1d6198ea01.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/f7cb1e54ee50f2bcf4209eba05e32e38.jpg


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[Tokarev]

I have a frame assembled from various pieces of PVC that I think will work fine as a windshield jig. My question this morning concerns the distance at which the glass is shot.

How do I measure the 18in? Is that from the top Edge or bottom edge of the glass? Or is it from the center of the piece? My guess is it would be from the center but I want to confirm before I start shooting a bunch of rounds.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/d1fd0c2fdf7b42f4444842facd33c0e7.jpg

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[DocGKR]

Center--although 18" is a bit close. Go sit in any modern vehicle and measure from the windshield to the driver...

[Tokarev]

Go sit in any modern vehicle and measure from the windshield to the driver...

True. I think anything made after about 1999 will put the glass farther than 18" away unless you're talking about a Jeep Wrangler.

Same with the heavy clothing, to a certain extent. It looks like the FBI changed from a flannel/blanket liner to a PolarTec liner about 10 years ago. But who wears denim jackets anymore? Wouldn't some type of polyester or neoprene jacket material to more realistic in today's fashion environment?

[5pins]

I think it has less to do with the fashion of the day and more to do with challenging the bullet under extreme conditions. At last that's my take on it. People that proclaim "no one wears four layer of denim" are just showing there ignorance.

[DocGKR]

Exactly. The 4 layer denim barrier is an engineering test to assess the ability of handgun projectiles to robustly expand--it has NOTHING to do with clothing choices...

[Tokarev]

I understand the clothing barrier is more to test the design parameters of the bullet rather than someone's fashion sense. Still, I wonder how a modern synthetic material such as Gore-Tex might work as a barrier material. I'll have to play with this at some point.

On a related subject; how does something like a heavy leather jacket change the dynamics of testing?

[DocGKR]

Gore-tex is easy, leather is harder.

Again 4LD is the best option for robust handgun expansion testing.

[Tokarev]

Alright, guys. I have tested 300BLK 190gr Sub-X in gel and have created a new thread.

In addition, I tried two of the ASYM 9mm 115gr +P rounds loaded with Barnes Bullets through auto glass. These were fired from my Ruger 9mm Officer's.

Both bullets retained their weight and punched to just shy of a foot. Not bad for a compact concealment handgun. This load is fairly expensive but it might be an excellent choice for defensive work.

No chrono testing done this time since I did chronograph work previously.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/1b6e0e9ed6e1f44932b36b32b5e4df4c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/7e1740d86452bb4af08a02f90f4d0cb6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/8c9c834c2b27d17ba9604e1d6198ea01.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/f7cb1e54ee50f2bcf4209eba05e32e38.jpg


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180305/963a2f03eb88067edc5d98118812c145.jpg

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[DocGKR]

Handgun bullets just poke holes in things--that is all they do, no magic.

[Tokarev]

I am pleased to see that the Barnes data, given the same bullet at similar velocity, wields results that are pretty close to mine. My test sampling is quite a bit smaller but the results are pretty close.

[DocGKR]

Science = repeatable test results...

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/LHqNA_UBggs

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[Tokarev]

Here's my first attempt at a big block.

This is four pounds of powder and 17.25 quarts of hot water. My mixing bucket isn't isn't big enough to make almost five mixed gallons so I did 2 pounds and 2 pounds. Time between one batch and the next was about ten minutes. Hopefully that won't have an impact on the outcome.

The patient is resting quietly now. I'll check on him in about four hours. Any undissolved foam will be scraped off before refrigeration.

The mold for this is a plastic window washing bucket. It is not perfectly rectangular but it will probably be close enough.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180411/d7b3fd503d1244ba55cbc8cd8773db46.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Here's my first attempt at a big block.

This is four pounds of powder and 17.25 quarts of hot water. My mixing bucket isn't isn't big enough to make almost five mixed gallons so I did 2 pounds and 2 pounds. Time between one batch and the next was about ten minutes. Hopefully that won't have an impact on the outcome.

The patient is resting quietly now. I'll check on him in about four hours. Any undissolved foam will be scraped off before refrigeration.

The mold for this is a plastic window washing bucket. It is not perfectly rectangular but it will probably be close enough.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180411/d7b3fd503d1244ba55cbc8cd8773db46.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930P using TapatalkI wonder about mixing the gel right in the window washing bucket. It should work okay and should allow me to mix all four pounds in one batch.

Another option might be something like this brewer's bucket. A spigot on the bottom would allow me to pour the gel into the mold and leave the foam behind in the bucket.



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[Tokarev]

Oh, Yeah!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180413/f0d7e2ec72d39acff6f18625fcee1b46.jpg

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[Tokarev]

BTW--I got an old used fridge for the garage.

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[DocGKR]

You can mix in the bucket; we mix right in the large plastic bins we use as molds.

[StraitR]

Here's my first attempt at a big block.

Any undissolved foam will be scraped off before refrigeration.

I've been told*, by a guy who took the FBI course on ballistics gel testing, that 4-5 drops of cinnamon oil when mixing will remove all the foam.

Helps with the smell, too. ;)

ETA: *We've not tried it when mixing ours, so I can't swear to the foam part, but I can attest to the better smell of his blocks.

[DocGKR]

Cinnamon oil reduces mold; Foam-Eater reduces the foaming...

[Tokarev]

Cinnamon oil reduces mold; Foam-Eater reduces the foaming...How long do blocks usually last under refrigeration before mold becomes a concern? I haven't kept a block more than about ten days or so. I noticed it got kind of stinky but I didn't see any fuzz growing.

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