IDPA Shooters--Ruger Wants Your Input

[Tokarev]

I guess with the announcement that Ruger has hired Doug Koenig to start up a Ruger shooting team comes this survey.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSejc4ThPaAgkc_qSadR-74wcI7PgXl-Itmwt8BipA0m8EtQaw/viewform

It will be interesting to see what the results are. Will this mean Ruger tweaks an existing design(s) or will they make something new? Or will they ignore the data once gathered?

I answered as best I could while trying to ignore any preconceived notions of what Ruger currently makes. The exception was for CDP. I put in the comments that whatever product they make for CDP needs to be a 1911.

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[Jim Watson]

They already make a pretty good 1911. It will not take much to set it up for CDP.

Is Doug willing to showcase a CDP and USPSA SS?

[Tokarev]

They already make a pretty good 1911. It will not take much to set it up for CDP.

Is Doug willing to showcase a CDP and USPSA SS?I haven't seen anything yet on what Ruger/Doug plan to do for competition. Also don't know yet what Ruger's team will be as far as how many members, etc.

Yep. Ruger SR1911s are good guns for the money and it wouldn't take much to get one competition ready. The SR1911 Target probably just needs a mag well and a fiber optic front sight to be good to go. Maybe a trigger job but I assume Ruger won't get too carried away with triggers being that they're pretty lawsuit conscious.

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[Peally]

Shooting teams don't make any sense, I predict this won't last in the end.

[DAB]

didn't see an option for: accurate and ergonomic. too many personal preference options that don't really make a gun good or bad. i've shot all sorts of guns, well. the options they provide were not the determining factors.

make a good pistol, support it, buyers will come.

[Tokarev]

Shooting teams don't make any sense, I predict this won't last in the end.In what way?

Full on paid shooters usually do more than just shoot. They are spokesmen for their respective companies. A visible PR tool.

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[ranger]

The trick is what will Ruger make and campaign to "win" SSP and ESP? 1911 clone in CSP is "too easy" - the real opportunity is to showcase in SSP and ESP.

[Tokarev]

The trick is what will Ruger make and campaign to "win" SSP and ESP? 1911 clone in CSP is "too easy" - the real opportunity is to showcase in SSP and ESP.I suppose the American in 45 will work for CDP once downloaded to 8 rounds. Same goes for the HK or S&W M&P but everyone shooting CDP at the local clubs is using some type of 1911 variant.

The Match Champion GP100 appears to be made to meet IDPA revolver rules so Ruger has that division covered too.

So I agree that ESP and SSP are the uncharted waters if you will. Could the American or Security 9 be modified to work? Yes but I doubt shooters will flock to either design regardless of factory packaging.

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[Wheeler]

Shooting teams don't make any sense, I predict this won't last in the end.

That's pretty vague. Would you mind explaining your comments a bit? Why don't the shooting teams make sense? All things come to an end, are you talking about a short term end or something else?

FWIW, Ruger is the ONLY large manufacturer that is listening to their customers and not just to their distributors. They have released a LOT of products in the past few years that were specifically requested by their customer base. I for one like that and it inclines me towards spending my 'new gun dollars' with Ruger in some cases. Towards that end, hiring Doug makes a lot of sense.

[DAB]

free advice for Ruger: don't ask your customers to design a gun, design a gun that meets the needs of your pro shooter, and customers will buy that, as they too want to have the same gun as your championship shooter. see SW and their Jerry Miculek (sp?) revolvers.

so pick a division each year, spec out a gun that Koenig likes, have him shoot it and hopefully win with it, and make and stock those. next year, pick another division, wash, rinse, repeat.

Rob Vogel got a lot of shooters to try out Glocks in IDPA, albeit with some after market parts.

Wilson combat has their shooters using Wilson guns too.

your pro shooter becomes your best salesman, as he is showing what your gun can do. and thus, telling the world that our guns won't keep you from winning, only you keep you from winning.

no charge for the above advice.

[Tokarev]

Rob Vogel got a lot of shooters....

I've been a member of and/or shooter of IDPA for probably 15 years. Glock has always been the gun of choice for ESP and SSP.


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[Peally]

If making a shooting team makes real financial or marketing sense I'd like to hear it. People vastly overestimate how common competitive shooters are, how many people give a crap about competition, and how many people spend money based off of a shooter's recommendations. It's a near zero return on investment, and a lot of people don't like that fact because they view sponsorships as some sort of holy prestige laden goal versus the reality of it being a very minor side job. Going off the last USPSA annual reports I can recall, the number of production GMs is maybe something around 150 in the country (that's being very generous), out of maybe roughly 20,000 total members. That's in a country of 50 million households that own firearms (that's 50,000,000). Mathematically that's struggling to even be a drop in the ocean.

This is all beside the fact that it's an individual sport and there are literally no actual teams.

The only types that might be worth it to get them sales are the big names (like Doug), but being members of an arbitrary "team" isn't the reason they're going to get those sales at all. Doug could pimp Ruger just fine without a jersey. Like other company teams we see I expect this will either be a gig for funsies (HK) or it'll tank in a few years due to reality setting in (Sig). It's similar to sponsorship in motorsports where it's not about making money, it's about putting cash into the game because the big wigs at the company simply just enjoy it and want it to succeed.

I'm glad they're finally becoming relevant and making cool shit but they'd sell far more swag getting a boring YouTube personality to play with their latest and greatest gun (nutnfancy, Hickok45, etc). All I'm saying with my snarky comment is either someone at Ruger likes IDPA and USPSA enough to pay Doug for a swanky jersey, or they'll cut their losses once Ruger hits a rough spot and isn't financially booming.

[DAB]

the problem with this survey idea is the same as Ford and the Edsel: ask everyone what they want in a car/pistol, compile the results, and make what the plurality wants. and then no one buys it because 80% of the respondents don't see their selections on the product. "Ruger doesn't listen to customers" will be the cry.

i'll stick to my prior post.

as for IDPA, reading a bit of history, everyone was convinced that a 1911 would beat any other pistol because of it's great trigger. Vogel and Langdon and others showed them otherwise. and the market responded with guns and parts that were suited to this type of shooting. competition has a way of weeding out bad ideas, but it can also be used to showcase a new idea that has not been time tested. maybe it will succeed, maybe it will fail.

[Tokarev]

If making a shooting team makes real financial or marketing sense I'd like to hear it. People vastly overestimate how common competitive shooters are, how many people give a crap about competition, and how many people spend money based off of a shooter's recommendations. It's a near zero return on investment, and a lot of people don't like that fact because they view sponsorships as some sort of holy prestige laden goal versus the reality of it being a very minor side job. Going off the last USPSA annual reports I can recall, the number of production GMs is maybe something around 150 in the country (that's being very generous), out of maybe roughly 20,000 total members. That's in a country of 50 million households that own firearms (that's 50,000,000). Mathematically that's struggling to even be a drop in the ocean.

This is all beside the fact that it's an individual sport and there are literally no actual teams.

The only types that might be worth it to get them sales are the big names (like Doug), but being members of an arbitrary "team" isn't the reason they're going to get those sales at all. Doug could pimp Ruger just fine without a jersey. Like other company teams we see I expect this will either be a gig for funsies (HK) or it'll tank in a few years due to reality setting in (Sig). It's similar to sponsorship in motorsports where it's not about making money, it's about putting cash into the game because the big wigs at the company simply just enjoy it and want it to succeed.

I'm glad they're finally becoming relevant and making cool shit but they'd sell far more swag getting a boring YouTube personality to play with their latest and greatest gun (nutnfancy, Hickok45, etc). All I'm saying with my snarky comment is either someone at Ruger likes IDPA and USPSA enough to pay Doug for a swanky jersey, or they'll cut their losses once Ruger hits a rough spot and isn't financially booming.Paid shooting professionals are few and far between. How many people make a living at it other than Leathem, Jerry, Julie and a few others like Jarrett and Butler. And most of the really big guys also have schools and/or teach on the side.

According to the Ruger press release, Koenig is going to be team captain but also brand ambassador. We don't know what that means yet but I bet Doug will be doing more than just shooting Ruger guns and wearing Ruger shirts.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the return on investment stuff but there's going to be a happy medium. How much does Ruger pay to advertise in American Handgunner or Guns and Ammo VS how much will they pay the shooting team to represent Ruger? Dropping a few full-page ads in exchange for a celebrity spokesman makes sense as long as they don't overdo it like SIG did.

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[Tokarev]

Ruger has a similar survey for ICORE if anyone is interested.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSemkXSuIigLa1qwAmuQVH8AIZbQ-x0wG58fDkYIKM3vbzwhBA/viewform

If one exists for other sports (USPSA or 3gun) I haven't seen them yet.

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[DAB]

sponsored shooters are a marketing expense. they go out, show how wonderful their sponsor's gun/gear/ammo is, and hopefully Billy-bob thinks "hey, that's a pretty nice gun, maybe i should get one too". i recall seeing ads in the IDPA magazine last issue for Safariland gear, with Vogel's competition gear all laid out and labeled, so any reader could easily duplicate it if they so desired. the goal is to sell more product.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I hope they make an, “N frame/Redhawk,” size revolver in .45 ACP that is analogous to the smaller framed Match Champion.

Like a Ruger version of Jerry’s 625 revolver without the lock.


civiliandefender.com

[Zincwarrior]

didn't see an option for: accurate and ergonomic. too many personal preference options that don't really make a gun good or bad. i've shot all sorts of guns, well. the options they provide were not the determining factors.

make a good pistol, support it, buyers will come.

Agreed. Took the survey. Nothing on trigger pull weight and reset, nothing on accuracy.

It's a no serious survey as a result.

[Zincwarrior]

Do like S&W, Glock, Walther,etc. Make a very good regular production model, then make a competition version for about $300 more with better trigger, sights, and accuracy. Walther just did it with their Q5.

[DAB]

and in the case of Walther, they are offering contingency money if you shoot and win with one of their pistols. another way of encouraging people to buy and shoot and compete with their pistols.

[Tokarev]

and in the case of Walther, they are offering contingency money if you shoot and win with one of their pistols. another way of encouraging people to buy and shoot and compete with their pistols.STI used to give prize money to shooters who uses an STI pistol and wore an STI shirt to major matches. I won a couple frames that way. Ruger could certainly do something similar although I doubt they will.

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[Tokarev]

Agreed. Took the survey. Nothing on trigger pull weight and reset, nothing on accuracy.

It's a no serious survey as a result.Ruger is not likely to launch an entirely new design off the results of this survey. They will likely do nothing other than add some different sights to a few existing guns.

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[HCM]

Shooting teams don't make any sense, I predict this won't last in the end.

Like the old school exhibition shooters, they are a marketing tool. It will last as long as it is cost effective advertising.

[BigT]

Team CZ seems to work as a reasonably cost effective marketing thing worldwide for CZ. Especially considering on almost all the teams the main team members are full time employees with day jobs at the company.


FWIW outside of the US ( and yes there's lot of pistol shooting in the Unitd States) a much bigger percentage of shooters, especially pistol shooters, are involved in formal,shooting sports.

[Bucky]

Dear Ruger,

Please make an affordable, reliable, wide body 1911.

Thank you,
The End

PS: consider licensing the Caspian frame.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I really appreciate a company trying to take real input from their customers.

I went ahead and filled out the survey although I doubt they will even consider producing my two main suggestions (DAO Sig P365 clone and a Tanfoglio Witness clone with an aluminum frame option)

[DMF13]

. . . they'd sell far more swag getting a boring YouTube personality to play with their latest and greatest gun (nutnfancy, Hickok45, etc).I understand your point, and while I don't know jack #$% about the other guy, any company that would pay a fraud like nutnfancy, in an attempt to sell their gear, would cause me to seriously doubt the credibility of their products.

[Peally]

I understand your point, and while I don't know jack #$% about the other guy, any company that would pay a fraud like nutnfancy, in an attempt to sell their gear, would cause me to seriously doubt the credibility of their products.

I guarantee you and I aren't the true target audience.

[Alpha Sierra]

free advice for Ruger: don't ask your customers to design a gun, design a gun that meets the needs of your pro shooter, and customers will buy that, as they too want to have the same gun as your championship shooter.

That strategy works with people who are too insecure or too stupid to figure out what is it that they want on their own.

Personally, the more a shill pushes something the less I'm inclined to look at it. The marketing/advertising is typically compensating for a less than well thought-out product.

YMMV

[jetfire]

That strategy works with people who are too insecure or too stupid to figure out what is it that they want on their own.

Personally, the more a shill pushes something the less I'm inclined to look at it. The marketing/advertising is typically compensating for a less than well thought-out product.

YMMV

Professional shooters are hardly “shills.” I imagine that a gun designed to Doug’s specifications would be superior to 99% of the guns designed by dumbdick consumers that can’t even break out of C-class.

[Alpha Sierra]

Professional shooters are hardly “shills.”
That would depend on how their bread gets buttered


I imagine that a gun designed to Doug’s specifications would be superior to 99% of the guns designed by dumbdick consumers that can’t even break out of C-class.
I imagine his input would be pretty limited in the overall scheme of things unless one of his professional qualifications includes a firearm design (and I mean real engineering work) resume.

But I suppose it's fun to say "I have a Doug Koenig special edition 1911"

[bofe954]

That would depend on how their bread gets buttered


I imagine his input would be pretty limited in the overall scheme of things unless one of his professional qualifications includes a firearm design (and I mean real engineering work) resume.

But I suppose it's fun to say "I have a Doug Koenig special edition 1911"

I would hope Ruger has engineers. What they seem to lack is someone to tell them how their guns shoot and what to improve, and what USPSA/IDPA competitors want that they aren't providing. Not sure how much engineering is left on a 100+ year old pistol design that can be completely built from a Brownells catalog. He's not helping them make a new type of pistol.

[Alpha Sierra]

What they seem to lack is someone to tell them how their guns shoot and what to improve, and what USPSA/IDPA competitors want that they aren't providing.
Which is why they are asking the shooters in a survey.

But according to some, the target demographic is somehow too stupid to know what they want/need so the pros need to do it for them.

[Tokarev]

I'm glad to see Ruger peeking under the tent, so to speak. They are the only big firearms manufacturer to not have a professional shooting team. Glock and S&W have had them for years. Colt used to tear it up too when they had their team.

With that said, can Ruger really break into this market? Yes for IDPA but they really don't have a USPSA product unless you want to shoot Single Stack. Or maybe Production with the American although I find that pistol to be somewhat lacking in ergonomics. Same goes for 3gun. Ruger has an AR that would work pretty well but they don't make a semiautomatic shotgun. And you're stuck with the American again.

But this all might have been some ad exec's pet project and one that probably isn't paying off. The market for competition guns is relatively small, Ruger lacks guns that the masses want to use for competition and the one gun they do make is frankly too expensive. I'm sure the Keonig is a thing of beauty but it is just too expensive at $1800.

If Ruger really wants to do it they should look at a revamped American not unlike the P320 X5. Sell it with a fiber optic, a mag well and a better trigger. They also need to make some type of 1911 double stack. I believe Ruger still makes the Caspian hicap castings. Maybe launch a hicap 1911 using the Caspian frame as a base.

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[mmc45414]

I assume Ruger won't get too carried away with triggers being that they're pretty lawsuit conscious.I agree, but the last two I bought were pretty nice. Not competition custom level light, but I was pleasantly surprised. I figured they would be super heavy and need work. I tweaked the first one I bought but if I look back it didn't need it. Dunno what all that might mean or not, but they were not the staple guns I expected.

[jetfire]

That would depend on how their bread gets buttered


I imagine his input would be pretty limited in the overall scheme of things unless one of his professional qualifications includes a firearm design (and I mean real engineering work) resume.

But I suppose it's fun to say "I have a Doug Koenig special edition 1911"

Have you ever been a professional shooter? Are you personal friends with any?

[Tokarev]

Is anyone "accomplished" running a GP100 Match Champion in the various revolver divisions outside of those on the Ruger team? The MC is a decent revolver but it could still use a few tweaks.

And then there's the SP101 Match Chapion. That one is a real head scratcher.

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[jetfire]

Is anyone "accomplished" running a GP100 Match Champion in the various revolver divisions outside of those on the Ruger team? The MC is a decent revolver but it could still use a few tweaks.

And then there's the SP101 Match Chapion. That one is a real head scratcher.

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I finished in the Top 5 in like 4 straight IDPA Nationals using one. I don't know if second place in the whole country counts as accomplished or not.

[Sal Picante]

Professional shooters are hardly “shills.” I imagine that a gun designed to Doug’s specifications would be superior to 99% of the guns designed by dumbdick consumers that can’t even break out of C-class.

I shoot a Beretta, both before and after I shot for Wilson Combat's Shooting Team.

I've always tried to be helpful and approachable. Mostly to get more folks into USPSA, performance shooting, and hell, just being responsible gun owners... For the folks interested in the 92, I've tried to give them all the info they need, design parts that made it work better IMHO, etc.

I guess that does make me a professional: I got paid. Though, I don't think I was ever a shill. If anything, I hope people viewed me as authentic, and more importantly, helpful.

[Sal Picante]

I finished in the Top 5 in like 4 straight IDPA Nationals using one. I don't know if second place in the whole country counts as accomplished or not.

Not in the revolver division... :rolleyes:
<ducks>

[Tokarev]

I finished in the Top 5 in like 4 straight IDPA Nationals using one. I don't know if second place in the whole country counts as accomplished or not.I would say it makes you quite accomplished. Congrats.

So Ruger has a good grasp of the action pistol revo market. At least for the 6-shooter category.

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[Alpha Sierra]

Have you ever been a professional shooter? Are you personal friends with any?

No to both, and as a group they are not influencers for me.

[jetfire]

I would say it makes you quite accomplished. Congrats.

So Ruger has a good grasp of the action pistol revo market. At least for the 6-shooter category.

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Yeah the Match Champion is a hell of a six shooter. Their moonclip revolvers aren't quite there yet, so I don't think the 929 is in any danger of getting eclipsed as the Go-To gun for USPSA, but stranger thinks have happened. I think if they really sank some money into the USPSA market they could convert all 12 revolver guys. ;)

[jetfire]

No to both, and as a group they are not influencers for me.

So maybe you should stay in your fuckin' lane before you call people shills.

[Zincwarrior]

Their survey should have included trigger pull, or whether trigger work had been done.

[Alpha Sierra]

So maybe you should stay in your fuckin' lane before you call people shills.
I'll drive in whatever lane I please.

[jetfire]

Not in the revolver division... :rolleyes:
<ducks>

I actually lol'd. LEAVE WHEELGUNS ALONE

[RevolverRob]

A revised American with a steel frame and the manual safety would have me running a Ruger semi-auto for the second time in my life (my first was handgun was a P95). One that had the bells and whistles like a Q5 steel-frame Match would be the heat. Slide cuts for carry optics?

I can see Ruger making headway in USPSA Production with a quality built gun. Why? Because folks are running just about everything near the top of production right now Glocks, Q5s, Berettas, CZs, Tanfos - it'd be easy to build something that worked in that vein.

I don't think Ruger wants to get into double-stack 1911s, nor should they. Between all of the ones out there only the STIs/SVIs remain consistent performers. STI just dropped the price on the new generation mags which are excellent, like duty ready out of the package, no tuning, etc. As I wear out old mag bodies, I'm replacing them with new style mags. They're way better and now VIP-length mags are 50 bucks and big-sticks (170mm) are 75.

And dudes, life is way better with Alpha Sierra on Ignore.

[HopetonBrown]

Ruger probably makes 1000x more selling little pocket rockets nobody actually shoots than they ever will with some IDPA specific blaster.

[Bucky]

I don't think Ruger wants to get into double-stack 1911s, nor should they. Between all of the ones out there only the STIs/SVIs remain consistent performers.

My Caspian builds run / ran as good as my STIs, and are FAR easier to work on. Trouble is, nobody is making a decent magazine for them anymore. My Craig / Caspian F15 Fantom is much thinner than a VIP. It’s also noticeably shorter in height, yet only gives up one round.

With the popularity of the EDC X9, I think a similar sized Ruger build at half the price would sell well.

[Tokarev]

With the popularity of the EDC X9, I think a similar sized Ruger build at half the price would sell well.

Yes. An Officer's ACP sized high cap 1911 would be a nifty little handgun.


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[Duelist]

Yes. An Officer's ACP sized high cap 1911 would be a nifty little handgun.


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Didn’t Paraordnance used to make something like that?

[Tokarev]

Didn’t Paraordnance used to make something like that?

Yes. That was the Warthog, IIRC. But did they make it in a 9mm? I only saw them chambered in 45 Auto.

[Zincwarrior]

I would encourage everyone one to be less snarky and more civil when interacting with one another here. If that’s too much to ask, the “good” news is that there are essentially an infinite number of other gun related forums and FB groups out there where snarky comments aren’t just tolerated, but encouraged — their mods are probably less shitty too.

This is true. Thank you for the reminder (both to be polite and the crappy state of mods here:p)

[RevolverRob]

Trouble is, nobody is making a decent magazine for them anymore.

So...right now the STI/SVI is more consistent...:eek:;) I'm just yankin' your chain on this one. I'm picking up what you're putting down, it's just a matter of finding a good mag maker. Or, maybe it's time to alter the Caspian frame to run Wilson X9 mags?

But I guess the question for Ruger would be, what's gained by going in on a Limited/L10 platform, when they have a solid single-stack design that can run L10 rather easily if they do 9mm and .40 barrels?

I would think there is more ground to be gained focusing on an "American" model that fit SSP and Production slots.


Yes. That was the Warthog, IIRC. But did they make it in a 9mm? I only saw them chambered in 45 Auto.

They did, yes. I don't think they have made one in several years now. I have no idea where you'd find reliable short mags. It would be kind of a cool gun, but it's also so chunky it makes a G30 look svelte.

[Bucky]

So...right now the STI/SVI is more consistent...:eek:;) I'm just yankin' your chain on this one. I'm picking up what you're putting down, it's just a matter of finding a good mag maker. Or, maybe it's time to alter the Caspian frame to run Wilson X9 mags?

But I guess the question for Ruger would be, what's gained by going in on a Limited/L10 platform, when they have a solid single-stack design that can run L10 rather easily if they do 9mm and .40 barrels?

I would think there is more ground to be gained focusing on an "American" model that fit SSP and Production slots.


I don't think the target should be competition guns at this point. Going to give the edge to STI / SV / other copies on that one. It's not like I'd ever put my EDC X9 against my STI for Limited or Limited 10. That said, I think the carry market and possible IDPA could be the entry point. My EDC X9 is less bulky than my VIP, and my Fantom is less bulk than the X9.

Hmm, maybe I'll take some comparison pics this weekend.

[Duelist]

Yes. That was the Warthog, IIRC. But did they make it in a 9mm? I only saw them chambered in 45 Auto.

Probably only .45 ACP.

ETA: Apparently, (http://www.para-usa.com/firearms/expert/warthog.html) they still make it, and only in .45.

[Bucky]

Didn’t Paraordnance used to make something like that?

But...,,,, it’s a Paraordnance. :(

[karmapolice]

Looks like there already is a Koenig model...

https://www.ruger.com/productImages/6766/detail/1.jpg

https://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911Competition/models.html

[1986s4]

I finished in the Top 5 in like 4 straight IDPA Nationals using one. I don't know if second place in the whole country counts as accomplished or not.

Uh, I think it is..

[jetfire]

Ruger probably makes 1000x more selling little pocket rockets nobody actually shoots than they ever will with some IDPA specific blaster.

The Elsie Pee was like the number 1 selling gun on Gunbroker for three years straight or some ridiculous number. When I was working retail we should sell shitloads of them to people because 1) they're cheap, and 2) DID I MENTION THEY'RE CHEAP?

[Sherman A. House DDS]

The Elsie Pee was like the number 1 selling gun on Gunbroker for three years straight or some ridiculous number. When I was working retail we should sell shitloads of them to people because 1) they're cheap, and 2) DID I MENTION THEY'RE CHEAP?

Elsie Pee? Her and I went to different high schools together!


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